jbs2886 wrote:

flyguy89 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

*DL BOS-JAX SEP 0>0.7 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0

Got to love it a non hub like Boston get's a nonstop to JAX and the second largest hub in their system DTW is still stuck on one daily RJ to JAX speaks volumes really.

Speaks volumes of what exactly? I suppose that everyone at the WCAA should also add this to the reasons they should all resign in shame.

By his logic, DL can never add a route from any smaller station unless DTW has more capacity and mainline - if they do, DL is out to get DTW. I still don't understand why the mods allow him to do this on almost every thread.

Most on this forum feel that way. Another thread, more DTW.

UA SFO-MFR AUG 4>6

It seems to me that the market isn't big enough for 1xA319 plus 1x738, plus 4 Express, but I don't know how it's doing now. Maybe trying to scare off AS from jumping in?

However it looks like the Mainline is dropping out after August. The UA website is only showing 4xCRJ-200 for September, which is a big fall-back from mix with the Mainline and E175. Maybe after next week's schedule change run, we'll have a better picture; these could just be place-holders for the time being. Or they haven't sold enough F-seats to be worthwhile???

Taco2sDay wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

flyguy89 wrote:

Speaks volumes of what exactly? I suppose that everyone at the WCAA should also add this to the reasons they should all resign in shame.

By his logic, DL can never add a route from any smaller station unless DTW has more capacity and mainline - if they do, DL is out to get DTW. I still don't understand why the mods allow him to do this on almost every thread.

Most on this forum feel that way. Another thread, more DTW.

Another thread, more DTW whining.

Adding nothing to the discourse...ever. That is the problem...

enilria wrote:

Y4 SBD-GDL JUL 0>0.3

SBD? San Bernardino?

FInally, getting some commercial service.... it's even mentioned on Wiki.....

Hopefully right time for KE to start BOS-ICN?

This DL expansion in BOS makes me wonder when they'll bite the bullet and enter the WAS-BOS market. Too big of a market from BOS to ignore for much longer.

Menzenski wrote:

This DL expansion in BOS makes me wonder when they'll bite the bullet and enter the WAS-BOS market. Too big of a market from BOS to ignore for much longer.

If slots weren't an issue, I agree - Delta would likely already be flying BOS-DCA. But slots at DCA are an issue. So that means Delta has to (1) enter BOS-WAS at BWI or IAD - both seem suboptimally, but in terms of the markets themselves and given competition, or (2) cut other DCA flights to fund the slots needed for BOS. I don't see either happening.

klm617 wrote:

*DL BOS-JAX SEP 0>0.7 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0

Got to love it a non hub like Boston get's a nonstop to JAX and the second largest hub in their system DTW is still stuck on one daily RJ to JAX speaks volumes really.

Give me a couple of the volumes about DTW being stuck while DL is adding service BOS-JAX. Don't get what you mean.

bobnwa wrote:

klm617 wrote:

*DL BOS-JAX SEP 0>0.7 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0

Got to love it a non hub like Boston get's a nonstop to JAX and the second largest hub in their system DTW is still stuck on one daily RJ to JAX speaks volumes really.

Give me a couple of the volumes about DTW being stuck while DL is adding service BOS-JAX. Don't get what you mean.

It means that Detroit is in decline as a hub. The only time there is ever an enhancement as far as Delta flight options or expansion is when someone moves into this market and provides a bit of competition other than that Delta does nothing with Detroit oother than shrinking the market.

commavia wrote:

If slots weren't an issue, I agree - Delta would likely already be flying BOS-DCA. But slots at DCA are an issue. So that means Delta has to (1) enter BOS-WAS at BWI or IAD - both seem suboptimally, but in terms of the markets themselves and given competition, or (2) cut other DCA flights to fund the slots needed for BOS. I don't see either happening.

I agree with your points -- debated writing them out but went with "bite the bullet" instead. If they really want to become the legacy airline of choice in BOS, I'd argue they need a presence on BOS-DCA. For that to happen, ~10 slots at DCA would need to be found. Could be a case of up-gauging routes like CVG and RDU to (more) mainline, more A321s to DTW/ATL, JFK upgauging, cutting some of the worst-performing LGA shuttle frequencies...

Obviously that would be a huge shift in their offering from DCA, which is probably why it hasn't happened. Whether or not its a good idea in terms of their broader network only DL can say -- but it does seem like it would be possible.

jbs2886 wrote:

flyguy89 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

*DL BOS-JAX SEP 0>0.7 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0

Got to love it a non hub like Boston get's a nonstop to JAX and the second largest hub in their system DTW is still stuck on one daily RJ to JAX speaks volumes really.

Speaks volumes of what exactly? I suppose that everyone at the WCAA should also add this to the reasons they should all resign in shame.

By his logic, DL can never add a route from any smaller station unless DTW has more capacity and mainline - if they do, DL is out to get DTW. I still don't understand why the mods allow him to do this on almost every thread.

You must be talking about it's crown jewel Atlanta that has to be linked to every city on the planet before any other city is entitled to that same connection.

Menzenski wrote:

commavia wrote:

If slots weren't an issue, I agree - Delta would likely already be flying BOS-DCA. But slots at DCA are an issue. So that means Delta has to (1) enter BOS-WAS at BWI or IAD - both seem suboptimally, but in terms of the markets themselves and given competition, or (2) cut other DCA flights to fund the slots needed for BOS. I don't see either happening.

I agree with your points -- debated writing them out but went with "bite the bullet" instead. If they really want to become the legacy airline of choice in BOS, I'd argue they need a presence on BOS-DCA. For that to happen, ~10 slots at DCA would need to be found. Could be a case of up-gauging routes like CVG and RDU to (more) mainline, more A321s to DTW/ATL, JFK upgauging, cutting some of the worst-performing LGA shuttle frequencies...
Obviously that would be a huge shift in their offering from DCA, which is probably why it hasn't happened. Whether or not its a good idea in terms of their broader network only DL can say -- but it does seem like it would be possible.

How long has it been since DL flew the BOS-DCA Shuttle? I believe it flew about a year, between late 2001 and around 9-11....

klm617 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

flyguy89 wrote:

Speaks volumes of what exactly? I suppose that everyone at the WCAA should also add this to the reasons they should all resign in shame.

By his logic, DL can never add a route from any smaller station unless DTW has more capacity and mainline - if they do, DL is out to get DTW. I still don't understand why the mods allow him to do this on almost every thread.

You must be talking about it's crown jewel Atlanta that has to be linked to every city on the planet before any other city is entitled to that same connection.

So 400+ daily departures is a problem? That is H U G E. Of course, your number one destination by passenger count is Atlanta, so....

Will Delta end up bringing back nonstop service between DFW and BOS? A DFW-BOS nonstop on Delta would be in competition with American, jetBlue, Southwest, and Spirit, all of which have nonstops from Boston to Dallas.

Menzenski wrote:

I agree with your points -- debated writing them out but went with "bite the bullet" instead. If they really want to become the legacy airline of choice in BOS, I'd argue they need a presence on BOS-DCA. For that to happen, ~10 slots at DCA would need to be found. Could be a case of up-gauging routes like CVG and RDU to (more) mainline, more A321s to DTW/ATL, JFK upgauging, cutting some of the worst-performing LGA shuttle frequencies

I'm not sure Delta would necessarily need ten daily flights in order to be competitively relevant on BOS-DCA, but in any event, I don't think any of those would realistically be practical means to free up a sufficient number of DCA slots, anyway. Delta doesn't have a whole lot of frequency on DCA-RDU, -JFK or -CVG as it is, so it's hard to imagine that getting cut further - that actually would start to endanger Delta's competitive relevance (at least schedule-wise) in those markets. As for DCA-ATL and -DTW, those routes have the frequency they do for a reason - those are both huge megahubs that require frequency not only to maintain dominance of the local market, but also to facilitate connections over multiple connecting banks throughout the day. Plus, on top of that, part of the challenge is that any hypothetical BOS-DCA schedule would naturally have to be scheduled with flights at peak times of the day when business travelers tend to fly, and that means morning and afternoon/evening. But of course, that's the same time that business travelers tend to fly on all those other routes from DCA, too. Personally, I just don't see it happening.

If anything, as said, I guess Delta could try BOS-BWI or BOS-IAD, but BWI has incredibly intense competition from multiple low fare carriers, and IAD O&D isn't that great and it also has multiple competitors. Ultimately, Delta may simply conclude that it can't cater to everyone, and for the customer who absolutely must have frequency nonstops to DCA, those people are lost to rivals (AA or JetBlue). That's essentially the reality that AA, for instance, has apparently accepted in both the BOS-SFO and BOS-RDU markets - both of which AA used to fly multiple times daily, and both of which AA has refused to re-enter.

PlanesNTrains wrote:

klm617 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

By his logic, DL can never add a route from any smaller station unless DTW has more capacity and mainline - if they do, DL is out to get DTW. I still don't understand why the mods allow him to do this on almost every thread.

You must be talking about it's crown jewel Atlanta that has to be linked to every city on the planet before any other city is entitled to that same connection.

So 400+ daily departures is a problem? That is H U G E. Of course, your number one destination by passenger count is Atlanta, so....

Until DTW passes ATL for passenger traffic and has flights to every runway over 7,000 feet, this poster won't be happy and will cry all day and we'll see it on every thread. As others have mentioned, I'm not sure the moderators let this happen. It deters from the conversation we are here for.

commavia wrote:

I'm not sure Delta would necessarily need ten daily flights in order to be competitively relevant on BOS-DCA, but in any event, I don't think any of those would realistically be practical means to free up a sufficient number of DCA slots, anyway. Delta doesn't have a whole lot of frequency on DCA-RDU, -JFK or -CVG as it is, so it's hard to imagine that getting cut further - that actually would start to endanger Delta's competitive relevance (at least schedule-wise) in those markets. As for DCA-ATL and -DTW, those routes have the frequency they do for a reason - those are both huge megahubs that require frequency not only to maintain dominance of the local market, but also to facilitate connections over multiple connecting banks throughout the day. Plus, on top of that, part of the challenge is that any hypothetical BOS-DCA schedule would naturally have to be scheduled with flights at peak times of the day when business travelers tend to fly, and that means morning and afternoon/evening. But of course, that's the same time that business travelers tend to fly on all those other routes from DCA, too. Personally, I just don't see it happening.

After looking through AA/DL schedules DCA-RDU/JFK/CVG for this fall, I'm inclined to think more like you on this one. DL already trails AA in frequency to RDU (7x vs 4x for the day I checked), JFK and CVG were even or within one (3-4x). Shifting some of those slots elsewhere would definitely change their competitive stance in those markets, but is the corresponding boost in their DCA/BOS status worth it?

Menzenski wrote:

Whether or not its a good idea in terms of their broader network only DL can say.

commavia wrote:

Ultimately, Delta may simply conclude that it can't cater to everyone, and for the customer who absolutely must have frequency nonstops to DCA, those people are lost to rivals (AA or JetBlue). That's essentially the reality that AA, for instance, has apparently accepted in both the BOS-SFO and BOS-RDU markets - both of which AA used to fly multiple times daily, and both of which AA has refused to re-enter.

I see your point, but (to play devil's advocate a bit) AA isn't actively trying to position itself as the legacy airline of choice in Boston, DL sure seems to be.

Menzenski wrote:

I see your point, but (to play devil's advocate a bit) AA isn't actively trying to position itself as the legacy airline of choice in Boston, DL sure seems to be.

As was discussed recently in another thread, "legacy airline of choice" is a very subjective, and relative, term. For BOS-area passengers who, say, value a global network and nonstops to CHI, LHR, TYO and LAX, AA may well already be their "legacy airline of choice." Similarly, for BOS-area passengers who, say, value a global network and nonstops to CVG, SFO and RDU, Delta may well already be their "legacy airline of choice." It just depends on the person. Delta is clearly bulking up its nonstop schedule presence in BOS, and it seems inevitable that for BOS-area passengers who value a global network and lots of nonstop destinations, even if at relative low frequency (including, in many cases, lower frequency than JetBlue), Delta will likely be, in most cases, the "legacy airline of choice." AA, on the other hand, is banking on dense coverage of its hubs which, not coincidentally, happen to be some of the largest and most important business markets in the U.S. - including DCA. One strategy isn't necessarily better or worse than the other. They're just different.

G4 BWI-TUL AUG 0.3>0.1
G4 PIE-TUL AUG 0.3>0.1
G4 SFB-TUL SEP 0.4>0.3 OCT 0.5>0.1 NOV 0.4>0.2 DEC 0.4>0.1

TUL has been offering incentives for new non-stop destinations, G4 has been getting them, I wonder if they are expiring?

hiflyeras wrote:

I predicted long ago that DL had the same plans for BOS as they've been doing in SEA. Both were already strong NW hubs or focus cities with a customer base...and neither controlled by AA or UA. B6 had better watch their back if they aren't already. Maybe AS and B6 will be forced to combine for their survival after the AS/VX merger settles.

BOS is much more fragmented compared to SEA though. DL is a (very) distant #3 at BOS behind B6 and AA, and slightly larger than UA; it is a very distant #2 at SEA but by far the biggest network carrier. The much stronger AA and UA presence overall in BOS - and especially in massive markets DL doesn't serve (CHI, WAS, MIA, PHL, BWI) - will remain a major check on DL's ability to gain major traction.

Of the DL BOS adds, BUF makes sense because AA is dropping it; JAX, ORF and MCI make sense because Delta is strong there; but AUS stands out... not exactly sure what they play is here other than to be a thorn in JetBlue's side considering Southwest owns AUS point of sale and JetBlue owns BOS.

hiflyeras wrote:

I predicted long ago that DL had the same plans for BOS as they've been doing in SEA. Both were already strong NW hubs or focus cities with a customer base...and neither controlled by AA or UA. B6 had better watch their back if they aren't already. Maybe AS and B6 will be forced to combine for their survival after the AS/VX merger settles.

Yeah JetBlue should just pack up and move out of Boston.
You guys kill me. Jetblue has worked to grow Boston to what it is today after almost everyone left it to die. Now Delta is coming back and it's JetBlues "survival" at stake. For sure blue will be watching but let's not get carried away here. Jetblue and Delta seem to be able to live together at JFK. Next thing you know they will be coming up with a new airline to kill jetblue.....oh wait.

jmscsc wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

iyerhari wrote:

*DL BOS-AUS OCT 0>0.8 NOV 0>0.9
DL BOS-BNA SEP 0.7>1.4 OCT 0.7>1.7 NOV 0.8>1.8
*DL BOS-BUF SEP 0>1.9 OCT 0>3 NOV 0>3 DEC 0>3
*DL BOS-JAX SEP 0>0.7 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0
DL BOS-MBJ DEC 0.1>0.3
*DL BOS-MCI OCT 0>0.9 NOV 0>0.9
DL BOS-MCO OCT 2>3
*DL BOS-NAS DEC 0.1>0.3
*DL BOS-ORF OCT 0>0.8 NOV 0>0.9
DL BOS-PUJ DEC 0.1>0.3
DL LAX-BOS DEC 1.3>3

Wow - BOS expansion. DL is dead serious on being the legacy carrier of choice in BOS and not allowing either B6 or Southwest to takeover any route. AUS, MCI was surprising. Hopefully DL brings in ORD, DCA, SDF and PHL Thank u enilria as always.

According to the DOT statistics from last year on popular city pairs and developing markets there is probably enough demand now (Thanks to United's SBN-EWR flight) for Delta to offer an regional jet flight from SBN-BOS R/T.

I live in SBN and fly DL exlusively. They're the largest carrier here and on football weekends fly SBN-LGA with a mainline jet. I never understood why they let UA capture the NY market, which has been so successful that it's now up to two flight a day. I'd love to see DL add LGA or BOS from here.

DL is working on starting a SBN-JFK flight to connect to their International service. There is enough demand now for a flight to BOS. If they can get a slot for a LGA flight I'm sure they will do it.

The second daily UA SBN-EWR flight was added during the ND football season. No word yet if it will be resumed this year yet.

I hope B6 responds to this by FINALLY adding MSP-BOS / JFK.

fastmover wrote:

hiflyeras wrote:

I predicted long ago that DL had the same plans for BOS as they've been doing in SEA. Both were already strong NW hubs or focus cities with a customer base...and neither controlled by AA or UA. B6 had better watch their back if they aren't already. Maybe AS and B6 will be forced to combine for their survival after the AS/VX merger settles.

Yeah JetBlue should just pack up and move out of Boston.
You guys kill me. Jetblue has worked to grow Boston to what it is today after almost everyone left it to die. Now Delta is coming back and it's JetBlues "survival" at stake. For sure blue will be watching but let's not get carried away here. Jetblue and Delta seem to be able to live together at JFK. Next thing you know they will be coming up with a new airline to kill jetblue.....oh wait.

Agreed, DL and B6 can most definitely coexist in BOS. I also fail to see the SEA/BOS analogy given that SEA serves as DL's primary Asia-Pacific gateway with significant domestic feed traffic. BOS is redundant with JFK and, to a lesser extent, ATL. The recent adds appear to be based on capturing O&D (although I'm sure DL sells some connecting seats to Europe) and, to a lesser extent, to keep B6 in check. BOS is B6's most profitable hub by a substantial margin.

Now, although I disagree with the premise, I do see B6 and AS eventually merging sometime down the line...maybe in 6-8 years, maybe more. They could probably survive alone as well, given how much the industry has consolidated recently. But with two carriers effectively established in the major cities of the coasts, it's hard not to see how a combined entity would be a hugely competitive force against the Big 4.

WA707atMSP wrote:

I hope B6 responds to this by FINALLY adding MSP-BOS / JFK.

I see MSP-BOS sooner rather than later, perhaps along with MSP-FLL. I believe MSP is now B6's largest unserved domestic market from BOS.

freakyrat wrote:

jmscsc wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

According to the DOT statistics from last year on popular city pairs and developing markets there is probably enough demand now (Thanks to United's SBN-EWR flight) for Delta to offer an regional jet flight from SBN-BOS R/T.

I live in SBN and fly DL exlusively. They're the largest carrier here and on football weekends fly SBN-LGA with a mainline jet. I never understood why they let UA capture the NY market, which has been so successful that it's now up to two flight a day. I'd love to see DL add LGA or BOS from here.

DL is working on starting a SBN-JFK flight to connect to their International service. There is enough demand now for a flight to BOS. If they can get a slot for a LGA flight I'm sure they will do it.

The second daily UA SBN-EWR flight was added during the ND football season. No word yet if it will be resumed this year yet.

Thanks for the information. That would be great!

freakyrat wrote:

jmscsc wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

According to the DOT statistics from last year on popular city pairs and developing markets there is probably enough demand now (Thanks to United's SBN-EWR flight) for Delta to offer an regional jet flight from SBN-BOS R/T.

I live in SBN and fly DL exlusively. They're the largest carrier here and on football weekends fly SBN-LGA with a mainline jet. I never understood why they let UA capture the NY market, which has been so successful that it's now up to two flight a day. I'd love to see DL add LGA or BOS from here.

DL is working on starting a SBN-JFK flight to connect to their International service. There is enough demand now for a flight to BOS. If they can get a slot for a LGA flight I'm sure they will do it.

The second daily UA SBN-EWR flight was added during the ND football season. No word yet if it will be resumed this year yet.

South Bend doesn't get 2 class service to ATL/DTW/MSP, and you think it will happen to JFK? Because the CR2 is quickly going to be leaving the NYC market in almost all markets. JFK before LGA, is what I've hesrd

Has there been an official release from DL regarding the BOS expansion?

I see YX / Republic is picking up a lot of NEW BOS DL flying on the 170/175 including BOS-NAS. Any word where these additional birds are coming from? I know YX is taking 6 E170 from Compass.

miaskies wrote:

I see YX / Republic is picking up a lot of NEW BOS DL flying on the 170/175 including BOS-NAS. Any word where these additional birds are coming from? I know YX is taking 6 E170 from Compass.

Could simply just be re-timing the schedule coupled with increased utilization. There are no new RJs coming to Delta outside of the remainder of the OO175s, as Delta is basically scoped out.

I wonder if BOS for DL will eventually looking like DL's SEA buildup? Out of SEA they added transborder flights to YYC, YEG, YVR and YYJ. I wonder once they hit a critical mass at BOS, whether they'd add YHZ, YQB and YOW? If they added YOW, I wonder how AC would react though?

I doubt they'd add YUL or YYZ as they do codeshare with WS on those (or at least soon in the case of YUL). YHZ feeding into a BOS hub would keep DL year-round in YHZ?...who knows if YHZ-JFK is reduced to summer-seasonal or cut outight?

enilria wrote:

*UA ORD-YQB NOV 1.0>0 DEC 1.0>0

Hasn't this been summer-seasonal for the past couple of years?

msycajun wrote:

Has there been an official release from DL regarding the BOS expansion?

Not that I have seen, and it wasn't on the DL news hub earlier this morning.

freakyrat wrote:

DL is working on starting a SBN-JFK flight to connect to their International service.

Doesn't DTW sufficiently provide that?

commavia wrote:

tlecam wrote:

I agree with this, although I also think that there are some differences. BOS is not SEA in the sense that DL isn't intending to turn it into an international hub with feeder domestic flights. I think that Delta's perspective on BOS is that it's a relatively large and wealthy market that wasn't already a hub for another major legacy airline and it sees opportunities to compliment it's traditional, larger hubs with a moderately sized O&D focused operation.

Agreed, although, as I said in the BOS thread - I find Delta's overall approach to its hub structure and domestic network, and by extension markets like BOS, intriguing because of how radically different it appears to be compared with AA and United. Whereas those two carriers seem to be almost singularly focused on bulking up the megahubs they already have, Delta seems far more interested in adventures in new hubs, focus cities and gateways - like LAX, SEA, RDU and BOS.

Delta's single largest hub (ATL, obviously) comprises a higher percentage of Delta's overall system capacity than either AA's (DFW) or United's (ORD), but the disparity in this metric also seems to be generally larger between ATL and Delta's other hubs as compared to DFW vs AA's other hubs and ORD and United's other hubs. And with Delta messaging to Wall St and analysts that it's domestic system capacity will be experiencing only minimal growth overall, what that effectively means in practice is that significant growth in one place - be it SEA, LAX, BOS or RDU - has to, often, be funded by cuts elsewhere, and in particular at other hubs (except, of course, ATL). My perception from following the general trends if not all of the details - could be wrong - is that the growth at JFK/LGA and the early phases of the buildups at SEA and LAX were funded to a large extent with CVG and MEM cuts, and now BOS, RDU and the later phases of SEA and LAX are being funded with cuts (relatively far smaller, obviously) at DTW and MSP.

Delta's strategy is interesting for multiple reasons - first and foremost because SEA, LAX and BOS all have intense competition from lower-cost operators (Alaska, Southwest and JetBlue), and also - again - because of how it seems to differ so starkly from what AA and United appear to be doing. As said elsewhere - will be fascinating to watch.

This is an example of DL's "S-curve" strategy that Bastian used to talk so much about after the NW merger. Using the strength of the hubs to build stronger spokes and then connect those stronger spokes together with a small handful of nonstops. IND and RDU were the first illustrations of this but DL has moved to build up their business in a number of these markets to the point where they are really strong with the business travel market. As others have noted, DL has operated each of these routes from BOS except AUS and BUF in the past 5 years, so time will tell if this is different. The only major difference as far as I can tell is that AA is about to contract (physically cutting down number of gates) and apparently focus on flying often to only their hubs and DL is about to get some gates back when WN moves. This leaves DL as the only full-service legacy on the routes against B6 and/or WN. While I'd say B6 is a strong competitor for BOS-based traffic, I'd take their chances again WN. On the other side of the route, DL blows past B6.

BOS is an interesting story in the history of DL (and NW) as it has come and gone as a significant city. For much of the 1980s and early 90s BOS was NW's European gateway and had a number of feeder flights--DL has had a major presence in BOS ever since buying NE in the 70s and it used to play part in the rotating "we're number one at Logan" game between DL, EA, AA, and US all taking turns post-degruation on that title. But that said, DL hasn't traditionally been the biggest guy in the market--most of the time between 1979 and now the largest airline at Logan has been someone other than DL.

Longhornmaniac wrote:

TransGlobalGold wrote:

dfwking wrote:

A late evening departure from Boston will not capture Boston-originating business traffic. The schedule suggests that DL is playing for Austin-originating business traffic. WN and B6 have sub-par schedules to serve that segment. This seems like a smart move on the part of DL.

Question is, will we see a B6 or other airline response to maintain share on these routes? Does B6 have the planes to increase frequency on overlapping routes? Do they have the appetite to endure RASM declines/losses on these routes?

I'm not sure 19:30 can be described as late evening. Seems to me like the hours posted would work well for business travellers. There aren't many alternative to get pax into BOS earlier unless you want a departure from AUS around 03:00. This should work I think.

The point is that these times aren't meant to capture people that live and work in Boston and would travel to Austin, but the other way around. The times are perfect for someone needing to go from Austin to Boston for a week. Leave Monday AM, return Friday PM.

But if you're traveling Boston to Austin, you have to leave either Sunday night or Monday night, either sacrificing part of your weekend or missing a full business day, and then having to return first thing Friday morning. It reduces the business hours you're away by 40% on a Monday-Friday trip.

I'm not sure if we agree or not. You seem to be implying someone's trip is a week long. Also, There's really not a lot we can do about changing the fact we have time zones, and certain flight times are going to suck. Yes, the person flying from Boston basically would lose 1/2 day. If you have to be there early morning, you fly the previous evening. I'm not sure why people see these as bad flight timings.

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

DL is working on starting a SBN-JFK flight to connect to their International service.

Doesn't DTW sufficiently provide that?

I would think so, too. It also seems that the ATL flights provide the international connectivity to negate the need for the JFK connection. I fly internationally a few times a year out of SBN and have gone through both hubs, and even last year made a connection through MSP for a flight to AMS.

jmscsc wrote:

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

DL is working on starting a SBN-JFK flight to connect to their International service.

Doesn't DTW sufficiently provide that?

I would think so, too. It also seems that the ATL flights provide the international connectivity to negate the need for the JFK connection. I fly internationally a few times a year out of SBN and have gone through both hubs, and even last year made a connection through MSP for a flight to AMS.

JFK has 15 international destinations unserved by DL from ATL/DTW/MSP:
ACC, AGP, ARN, ATH, CPH, DKR, EDI, GLA, LIS, NCE, PRG, SNN, SVO, TLV, TXL.

Now, I would say that the service is more about the local market. But JFK does provide a lot of unique connections internationally.

Dominion301 wrote:

I wonder if BOS for DL will eventually looking like DL's SEA buildup? Out of SEA they added transborder flights to YYC, YEG, YVR and YYJ. I wonder once they hit a critical mass at BOS, whether they'd add YHZ, YQB and YOW? If they added YOW, I wonder how AC would react though?
I doubt they'd add YUL or YYZ as they do codeshare with WS on those (or at least soon in the case of YUL). YHZ feeding into a BOS hub would keep DL year-round in YHZ?...who knows if YHZ-JFK is reduced to summer-seasonal or cut outight?

With AC/WS and PD in town, there is already a lot of capacity to Canada on most of those routes and those aircraft are far from full. That said, the number of folks flying to Canada through BOS has increased significantly in the last couple of years to record levels with getting close to nearly 1m flying back and forth, a lot of which has come from WS coming to town and i do believe plenty of connections on the ME2 who can't get any more frequency into Canada directly. Year over Year numbers are up 28% (March 16 to March 17) and 32% on a rolling 12 month basis.

jetbluefan1 wrote:

I see MSP-BOS sooner rather than later, perhaps along with MSP-FLL. I believe MSP is now B6's largest unserved domestic market from BOS.

This would be an interesting one. MSP is a hole in the network, but there's already heavy competition on the route, not only with DL (roughly 5 daily), SY (2-3 daily) and NK in the fray... so yes it might be the largest underserved, but do they want to dive into an already crowded market?

clrd4t8koff wrote:

Leaving at 7:30pm on a Sunday night is hardly losing a part of anyone's weekend. I know lots of business people that fly out on Sunday nights to work Monday morning vs. getting up at 3:30-4am for a 6am flight to get in and have a full day.

See, what I dislike totally about B6 and WN's flights is the flight back, getting you back here at 11pm at night (which is more tailored for AUS market not BOS. I actually like DL's timings here, because of the comment above, fly down Sunday night or Monday night and be there ready for the morning, then a 6.30 back up and be back for early morning here, is great. Although i much prefer B6 to fly on, i have been taking the 6am out of AUS and coming back via JFK just so i can get back before the death of night. DL now allows me the option to do that directly. So next time i go to AUS later in the year, I will seriously consider switching to DL for this trip, which is a shame, but the timings work much better overall.

chrisnh wrote:

I think I read that DL wants to pull their international flights back to Terminal A from E at Boston, and that the customs and immigration infrastructure with Massport's help is a sticking point (as it was in the 2000 timeframe when Terminal A was built for DL). This time around, in order to alleviate the choke points at Terminal E right now, Massport might acquiesce

I do agree that DL would like to move their International Ops back to A, as their stated aim is to basically own Terminal A (metaphorically, not actually own it) and if they can find a place to put the CBP area, I am sure they would be very happy with that. However I have to push back on the choke points at Terminal E, the timing of the DL arrivals around noon to 1, is at the quieter points of the day in E, so would be a lot less pressured than say a 5-7pm arrival time. The other issue with moving the International flights back to A as some have stated is I believe the widebodies would block other gates and thus reducing capacity during that time. That said, i have not had a detailed look at the DL widebody schedule to see what happens between the noon arrivals and the 7pm departures that are currently in place.

WA707atMSP wrote:

I hope B6 responds to this by FINALLY adding MSP-BOS / JFK.

Even better add MCO and JFK to DTW

DiamondFlyer wrote:

South Bend doesn't get 2 class service to ATL/DTW/MSP, and you think it will happen to JFK? Because the CR2 is quickly going to be leaving the NYC market in almost all markets. JFK before LGA, is what I've hesrd

SBN is suppose to get 2 class service to ATL in the 3rd qtr. DL has occasionally used 2 class CRJ700 and CRJ900 aircraft on the 1:30 PM flight to DTW that makes International connections. They did that last summer. They also used a CRJ700/900 aircraft on the afternoon MSP flight for a few months last year to guage demand.

The local folks at DGS said that they were mulling over a SBN-JFK flight to connect to their international bank of flights and are still kicking around the idea. Their subsidiary Endeavor Air has 50 CRJ200's based at JFK but lately has been moving into ATL as some days they provide the afternoon CRJ flights to SBN from ATL. So I do not know how many of their jets are left at JFK/LGA

Lots of things are still up in the air but the airport knows that Delta is planning 2 class jets for the ATL flights. Those flights are so full that they usually have no space for non-revs. The OO maintenance base at SBN has tooling and spares to work on CRJ700 and 900 aircraft so I think it is kind of a tossup as to who will operate the larger CRJ's at SBN first.

Local DGS folks were also talking to DL about possibly operating one of the morning flights to ATL with a B717. The traffic is there. SBN is up another 5% in boardings over last year already.

N717TW wrote:

This is an example of DL's "S-curve" strategy that Bastian used to talk so much about after the NW merger. Using the strength of the hubs to build stronger spokes and then connect those stronger spokes together with a small handful of nonstops. IND and RDU were the first illustrations of this but DL has moved to build up their business in a number of these markets to the point where they are really strong with the business travel market. As others have noted, DL has operated each of these routes from BOS except AUS and BUF in the past 5 years, so time will tell if this is different. The only major difference as far as I can tell is that AA is about to contract (physically cutting down number of gates) and apparently focus on flying often to only their hubs and DL is about to get some gates back when WN moves. This leaves DL as the only full-service legacy on the routes against B6 and/or WN. While I'd say B6 is a strong competitor for BOS-based traffic, I'd take their chances again WN. On the other side of the route, DL blows past B6.

It'll be fascinating to see if the S-curve strategy can play out in a market which serves as a hub for another carrier. Recently B6 started to see this in BOS, but only after many years engaged in the "investment phase" - which included adding a ton of capacity and frequencies to key business markets in order to gain "relevance."

I think the key difference with BOS than, say, IND or RDU, is that the dominant carrier (B6) serves the vast majority of business markets nonstop. For DL to gain the same level of relevance - and thus have a true chance at developing a market which follows the S-curve profit growth trajectory - it will need to invest resources in markets like BOS-CHI, WAS, and PHL. This is different from IND where DL can offer connectivity to all hubs, a handful of business and leisure markets, and call itself the carrier of choice.

VS4ever wrote:

jetbluefan1 wrote:

I see MSP-BOS sooner rather than later, perhaps along with MSP-FLL. I believe MSP is now B6's largest unserved domestic market from BOS.

This would be an interesting one. MSP is a hole in the network, but there's already heavy competition on the route, not only with DL (roughly 5 daily), SY (2-3 daily) and NK in the fray... so yes it might be the largest underserved, but do they want to dive into an already crowded market?

True, although B6 should be able to fill up flights with BOS point-of-sale. Although ATL is a larger market, B6 faces similar competitive dynamics (DL/WN/NK).

klm617 wrote:

WA707atMSP wrote:

I hope B6 responds to this by FINALLY adding MSP-BOS / JFK.

Even better add MCO and JFK to DTW

I don't see either of these happening (especially JFK). DTW was added to round-out B6's BOS focus city and to help grow the FLL North-South focus city.

jetbluefan1 wrote:

WA707atMSP wrote:

I hope B6 responds to this by FINALLY adding MSP-BOS / JFK.

I see MSP-BOS sooner rather than later, perhaps along with MSP-FLL. I believe MSP is now B6's largest unserved domestic market from BOS.

It B6 was aggressive, the best way to respond would be to get in on the LGA/DCA shuttle and trash DL's yield there like it has already done on BOS/LGA shuttle, which is probably hurting DL's P&L in the magnitude 10s of millions of year. Just checking the one way from LGA to DCA tomorrow, they are at over $400, which is what BOS/LGA were at prior to B6. I see BOS/LGA O/W at $199 tomorrow. Maybe it can buy those F9 slots to help with it or just byte the bullet and drop most of the PBI/MCO flights

It is very odd that Delta has been so quiet about the BOS expansion, there has yet to be a press release from Delta, article on Delta News Hub, news articles from secondary sources, tweets from Delta, or tweets from BOS airport. Searching for "Delta BOS Expansion 2017" brings up this forum and nothing related to the new routes . Very strange such a large move has gone unannounced! Could they possibly be planning anything else for a larger announcement? I know a ton of rumors have come around about more focus city/PTP routes, I know more expansions at AUS/CVG/MSY/RDU have all been rumored recently. Typically airlines announce routes on Tue/Wed/Thur, does anyone think there could be more to this announcement, or is Delta just really slow getting press coverage out ?

freakyrat wrote:

DiamondFlyer wrote:

South Bend doesn't get 2 class service to ATL/DTW/MSP, and you think it will happen to JFK? Because the CR2 is quickly going to be leaving the NYC market in almost all markets. JFK before LGA, is what I've hesrd

SBN is suppose to get 2 class service to ATL in the 3rd qtr. DL has occasionally used 2 class CRJ700 and CRJ900 aircraft on the 1:30 PM flight to DTW that makes International connections. They did that last summer. They also used a CRJ700/900 aircraft on the afternoon MSP flight for a few months last year to guage demand.

The local folks at DGS said that they were mulling over a SBN-JFK flight to connect to their international bank of flights and are still kicking around the idea. Their subsidiary Endeavor Air has 50 CRJ200's based at JFK but lately has been moving into ATL as some days they provide the afternoon CRJ flights to SBN from ATL. So I do not know how many of their jets are left at JFK/LGA

Lots of things are still up in the air but the airport knows that Delta is planning 2 class jets for the ATL flights. Those flights are so full that they usually have no space for non-revs. The OO maintenance base at SBN has tooling and spares to work on CRJ700 and 900 aircraft so I think it is kind of a tossup as to who will operate the larger CRJ's at SBN first.

Local DGS folks were also talking to DL about possibly operating one of the morning flights to ATL with a B717. The traffic is there. SBN is up another 5% in boardings over last year already.

Endeavor has a total of either 56 or 57 CR2s, in service today. Of which only a handful are "based" at JFK. By far the largest base is DTW, with ATL (opening a crew base shortly) quickly to be the 2nd largest CR2 base. MSP, LGA and JFK are the smallest of the 3 CR2 crew bases at 9E, and JFK is supposed to be the first of NYC CR2 bases to shrink to allow planes to be moved to ATL

Here are the comparatives for BOS-AUS Sep 18 to Sep 22 on all 3 airlines. B6 first, then DL and finally WN, definitely DL going for it with some intro fares $100 cheaper than the other two.

Late to the party, but thanks Enilria!

One thing that seems to have gotten lost in the DL BOS news was that BOS-LAX goes to three daily flights in December.

VS4ever wrote:

Here are the comparatives for BOS-AUS Sep 18 to Sep 22 on all 3 airlines. B6 first, then DL and finally WN, definitely DL going for it with some intro fares $100 cheaper than the other two.

Very interesting that DL is blocking AUS-BOS a full 45 minutes longer than WN is.

Delta has tried some of these routes (including BOS-JAX back in the 2007-08 pre recession days). Ultimately it pulled them all. Competition is great, but it will be interesting to see if these routes stick around this time, especially considering B6's market share in BOS. RE: JAX and DL, JAX has the largest non-hub SkyMiles base in the country - at least this was the case 8-9 yrs ago - which is why a lot of the new DL technologies and customer programs get their trial runs there. Assuming that is still true, I'd imagine that and corporate account demand is what re-started the BOS-JAX route.

VS4ever wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

I wonder if BOS for DL will eventually looking like DL's SEA buildup? Out of SEA they added transborder flights to YYC, YEG, YVR and YYJ. I wonder once they hit a critical mass at BOS, whether they'd add YHZ, YQB and YOW? If they added YOW, I wonder how AC would react though?
I doubt they'd add YUL or YYZ as they do codeshare with WS on those (or at least soon in the case of YUL). YHZ feeding into a BOS hub would keep DL year-round in YHZ?...who knows if YHZ-JFK is reduced to summer-seasonal or cut outight?

With AC/WS and PD in town, there is already a lot of capacity to Canada on most of those routes and those aircraft are far from full. That said, the number of folks flying to Canada through BOS has increased significantly in the last couple of years to record levels with getting close to nearly 1m flying back and forth, a lot of which has come from WS coming to town and i do believe plenty of connections on the ME2 who can't get any more frequency into Canada directly. Year over Year numbers are up 28% (March 16 to March 17) and 32% on a rolling 12 month basis.

Actually I had forgotten about YHZ-BOS now being flown by WS competing with AC. However, RJs to YQB and YOW would make sense once there are enough connection options built up. It's hard to believe that nobody flies YQB-BOS, when historically outside of YQB-Florida, that was YQB's only transborder route for the longest time.

Dominion301 wrote:

VS4ever wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

I wonder if BOS for DL will eventually looking like DL's SEA buildup? Out of SEA they added transborder flights to YYC, YEG, YVR and YYJ. I wonder once they hit a critical mass at BOS, whether they'd add YHZ, YQB and YOW? If they added YOW, I wonder how AC would react though?
I doubt they'd add YUL or YYZ as they do codeshare with WS on those (or at least soon in the case of YUL). YHZ feeding into a BOS hub would keep DL year-round in YHZ?...who knows if YHZ-JFK is reduced to summer-seasonal or cut outight?

With AC/WS and PD in town, there is already a lot of capacity to Canada on most of those routes and those aircraft are far from full. That said, the number of folks flying to Canada through BOS has increased significantly in the last couple of years to record levels with getting close to nearly 1m flying back and forth, a lot of which has come from WS coming to town and i do believe plenty of connections on the ME2 who can't get any more frequency into Canada directly. Year over Year numbers are up 28% (March 16 to March 17) and 32% on a rolling 12 month basis.

Actually I had forgotten about YHZ-BOS now being flown by WS competing with AC. However, RJs to YQB and YOW would make sense once there are enough connection options built up. It's hard to believe that nobody flies YQB-BOS, when historically outside of YQB-Florida, that was YQB's only transborder route for the longest time.

Is YQB-BOS a big enough market? I'd assume any QC government traffic would be more driven towards NYC, for which there are already options on US and DL, and tourism traffic would primarily be restricted to the summer months. In the past DL flew the route (briefly) with a B1900. A CRJ might be too much/not economically viable.

That said, I'd like to see the route happen. Quebec is a fun town to visit.

HVNandrew wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

VS4ever wrote:

With AC/WS and PD in town, there is already a lot of capacity to Canada on most of those routes and those aircraft are far from full. That said, the number of folks flying to Canada through BOS has increased significantly in the last couple of years to record levels with getting close to nearly 1m flying back and forth, a lot of which has come from WS coming to town and i do believe plenty of connections on the ME2 who can't get any more frequency into Canada directly. Year over Year numbers are up 28% (March 16 to March 17) and 32% on a rolling 12 month basis.

Actually I had forgotten about YHZ-BOS now being flown by WS competing with AC. However, RJs to YQB and YOW would make sense once there are enough connection options built up. It's hard to believe that nobody flies YQB-BOS, when historically outside of YQB-Florida, that was YQB's only transborder route for the longest time.

Is YQB-BOS a big enough market? I'd assume any QC government traffic would be more driven towards NYC, for which there are already options on US and DL, and tourism traffic would primarily be restricted to the summer months. In the past DL flew the route (briefly) with a B1900. A CRJ might be too much/not economically viable.

That said, I'd like to see the route happen. Quebec is a fun town to visit.

Historically it's been flown by several including AC on DH1s and Business Express (DL, NW, AA feeder) on SF3s 3-4x/day. I think AA kept it for quite a long time after the BEX takeover by Eagle.