rookie00
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Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:45 am

Not sure If this has been discussed yet or not but It seems odd that all of the US low cost airlines avoid Canada.

Of course there is Allegiant who fly into border airports that many Canadians fly out of in search of cheap flights.

And Southwest mentioned a few years back that they were interested in expanding to Canada, however no flights yet.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/us-business/southwest-airlines-targets-canadian-expansion/article20493147/
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:05 am

What's the first "C" in LCC stand for? ;)
That's probably the most contributory reason right there.

Second, is that (unlike most of the regional int'l destinations that US LoCos serve [Caribbean, etc]) all of the major Canadian points are entrenched with strong/dominating local competition, often by multiple airlines, in addition to the competition from other US carriers.

Double-whammy that the US LoCos haven't felt is worth the effort.
I'm sure that'll change in due time.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
USAirKid
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:08 am

One of the other dynamics is a significant percentage of the Canadian population is within 100 miles of the US border. So those border airports aren't really that far of a drive for a cheap airplane flight.
 
ahj2000
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:44 am

Also, there really isn't THAT much leisure traffic from the US to Canada. Some, but nowhere near the majority of traffic. While someone like B6 (or a return of VX) may do well with business traffic, the other carriers would have to market heavily to Canadia(or e)ns, many of which have loyalty to AC or WS.
-Andrés Juánez
 
alfa164
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:17 am

ahj2000 wrote:
Also, there really isn't THAT much leisure traffic from the US to Canada. Some, but nowhere near the majority of traffic. While someone like B6 (or a return of VX) may do well with business traffic, the other carriers would have to market heavily to Canadia(or e)ns, many of which have loyalty to AC or WS.


That... and the fact that LCC's generally are geared towards point-to-point traffic. Try to think of which cities in the USA would support a non-connecting flight to any Canadian airport - and, if you do, you will probably see WS or AC/AC Rouge already flying that route.

Keep in mind that Canada's population is barely one-tenth that of the USA; airlines generally want demand from both directions. There just isn't enough there to justify a risky expansion into a new foreign market.
 
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enilria
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:43 am

LAX772LR wrote:
What's the first "C" in LCC stand for? ;)
That's probably the most contributory reason right there.

To put a little more meat on those bones, I'd say it's really CBP tax policy on both sides. If you go to China on a $1700 ticket the (real) taxes are about $120. If you go to Canada on a $300 ticket the taxes are $120. 7% on China isn't that big a deal. 40% on Canada is a big deal. How can you be cheap when you have this enormous tax? And the LCCs need low fares for their model.

So, why is it different Southbound from Canada and to the Caribbean from the USA? At first blush vacationers going to sun cities should be more price conscious, but I think in both cases it's just more acceptable to pay these crazy taxes on a destination vacation where there is an expectation it's not going to be $80 each way to go to a beach in another country. The US LCCs aren't really selling that sort of unique vacation option to Canada northbound. Canada is not seen as exotic by Americans and most of Canada's marketed natural beauties are nearly replicated by similar locales inside the USA, so that tax becomes a hard sell.

On top of all of that, the Canada traffic is heavily Canada point of sale, not USA sale which pushes the traffic toward the Canadian carriers. The opposite of Mexico where the traffic is largely American.
 
Beatyair
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:08 pm

Taxes, airport fees, and smaller population. It is easier to advertise in Canada and just fly out of an airport on the other side of the boarder, ie. Bellingham, Buffalo, Detroit.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:36 pm

rookie00 wrote:
Not sure If this has been discussed yet or not but It seems odd that all of the US low cost airlines avoid Canada.

Of course there is Allegiant who fly into border airports that many Canadians fly out of in search of cheap flights.

And Southwest mentioned a few years back that they were interested in expanding to Canada, however no flights yet.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/us-business/southwest-airlines-targets-canadian-expansion/article20493147/


Cost of Landing & T-O fee's as well as gate space is very high. LLC/ULLC's look fo cheap fee airports. Never going to find that in Canada. Thier own airlines complane about fee prices.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:33 am

It's probably safe to say YHM will be front and center with high density east - west trunk routes in the summer and Florida, SoCal and the Deserts in the winter, from both east and west.

I've yet to see an airline within airline concept such as this truly succeed.

Too often, their "success" is a function of creative internal cost and revenue allocation, densification, to a certain extent ,juniority, and more recently, $50 or less oil pricing.

But then again, I've yet to see one that's been set up properly from the getgo. I'm eager to see WJ's take on this.

Will WJ be the first to get it right? How many people are left at WJ that even truly understand what an LCC is, let alone a supposed ULCC?

They are easy terms to throw around, but, as countless airlines have discovered, lot harder to actually achieve.

Regardless, in spite of all the brave talk, the appetite to invest in any of the other paper ULCC's that have been trying to raise capital for the last 3-4 years just got infinitely harder.

I suspect that is the point of the exercise in the first place.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:06 am

enilria wrote:
To put a little more meat on those bones, I'd say it's really CBP tax policy on both sides. If you go to China on a $1700 ticket the (real) taxes are about $120. If you go to Canada on a $300 ticket the taxes are $120. 7% on China isn't that big a deal. 40% on Canada is a big deal. How can you be cheap when you have this enormous tax? And the LCCs need low fares for their model.


Taxes don't kill demand to Mexico. Spirit + Frontier, plus WN and B6. Per ITA Matrix:

Fare 1: Carrier NK U7XSNR DFW to CUN (rules)
Passenger type ADT, one-way fare, booking code U
Covers DFW-CUN (Economy)
$54.99
Fare 2: Carrier NK U7XSNR CUN to DFW (rules)
Passenger type ADT, one-way fare, booking code U
Covers CUN-DFW (Economy)
$54.99
US September 11th Security Fee (AY)
$5.60
US Passenger Facility Charge (XF)
$4.50
US International Departure Tax (US)
$18.00
Mexico Tourism Tax Derecho No Inmigrante (UK)
$25.75
US International Arrival Tax (US)
$18.00
Mexico Airport Departure Tax Tua International (XD)
$29.74
US Customs Fee (YC)
$5.50
US Immigration Fee (XY)
$7.00
USDA APHIS Fee (XA)
$3.96
Subtotal per passenger
$228.05
Number of passengers
x1
Subtotal For 1 adult
$228.05
 
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MarcoPoloWorld
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:00 am

Such lame responses.... Come on LCCs, AC flies SIX TIMES DAILY on San Francisco - Toronto (including 2x widebodies) and no other airline dares to compete?... Those landing fees - as high as they may be - apply to all. Pathetic. So that's why I never fly Southwest or the like - they make no attempt, have no commitment, and have no global network.
 
behramjee
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:07 am

Southwest would be better off flying MDW YYZ multiple daily and then connect via MDW to all of USA as yields plus P2P traffic on Chicago Toronto is high.

In the same context, JetBlue too would fare well operating multiple daily JFK YYZ + BOS YYZ plus daily each FLL/MCO-YYZ of which the latter two can be used to feed its Carribbean routes as well as other Southern U.S cities in addition to capturing P2P. In iata winter season Florida-Canada for obvious reasons sees peak demand.

Flying Trans continental from California to YYZ though won't make money for a LCC.
 
jmt18325
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:35 am

MarcoPoloWorld wrote:
Such lame responses.... Come on LCCs, AC flies SIX TIMES DAILY on San Francisco - Toronto (including 2x widebodies) and no other airline dares to compete?... Those landing fees - as high as they may be - apply to all.


I thought that Air Canada had its own agreement with the GTAA?
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:55 am

MIflyer12 wrote:

Taxes don't kill demand to Mexico.



And people don't flock to Toronto for Spring Break.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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reidar76
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:25 am

We could also ask: Why don't European LCCs fly to Canada? Is it extremely high airport charges in Canada?

Québec and Montreal is within 737 range from Northwestern Europe (including England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Norway). Québec to Dublin is 2450 nm great-circle distance. Toronto to Dublin is 2850 nm. Québec to Denmark might also be within 737 MAX range.
 
redadeco
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:50 am

reidar76 wrote:
We could also ask: Why don't European LCCs fly to Canada? Is it extremely high airport charges in Canada?

Québec and Montreal is within 737 range from Northwestern Europe (including England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Norway). Québec to Dublin is 2450 nm great-circle distance. Toronto to Dublin is 2850 nm. Québec to Denmark might also be within 737 MAX range.


WOW Air, Corsair, Condor and Edelweiss serve Canada. Air Transat serves Europe from Canada.
 
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reidar76
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:29 am

redadeco wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
We could also ask: Why don't European LCCs fly to Canada? Is it extremely high airport charges in Canada?

Québec and Montreal is within 737 range from Northwestern Europe (including England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Norway). Québec to Dublin is 2450 nm great-circle distance. Toronto to Dublin is 2850 nm. Québec to Denmark might also be within 737 MAX range.


WOW Air, Corsair, Condor and Edelweiss serve Canada. Air Transat serves Europe from Canada.


Yes, I was thinking about the major European LCC (Easyjet, Ryanair and Norwegian). All three have their main bases within 737 range of Canada.

The Canadian LCC, Air Transit, offers some routes. The German, Condor, connects Frankfurt to Canada with the help of the Canadian Westjet. Edelweiss fly from Zürich to Vancouver, but is kind of expensive. I forgot about WOW air. Even though it is cheap, it is not a traditional LCC as all flights needs a transfer on Iceland.
 
diverted
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Re: Why do the US low cost airlines not fly to Canada?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:24 pm

MarcoPoloWorld wrote:
Such lame responses.... Come on LCCs, AC flies SIX TIMES DAILY on San Francisco - Toronto (including 2x widebodies) and no other airline dares to compete?... Those landing fees - as high as they may be - apply to all. Pathetic. So that's why I never fly Southwest or the like - they make no attempt, have no commitment, and have no global network.


VX flew YYZ-LAX/SFO and did abysmally on it. Perhaps the others are taking note

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