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MoKa777
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Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:35 pm

Hey everyone.

I was browsing my usual sources for airline news and came across this article:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... r-hajj-ops

Apparently, Pakistan limits their airline's to using aircraft up to 20 years old.

I believe South Korea also has a similar policy..? I could be wrong.

Which other countries have this type of policy and what are the motivations for imposing such a policy? I assume safety is one motivation. Any others?

Thanks for any input.
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aviatorcraig
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:45 pm

I've never heard of this... if it is for safety reasons it sounds like a strange broad-brush policy that is not data driven.
I for one would much rather fly on a well maintained thirty year old aircraft than a badly maintained ten year old one!
In the year 2017 with all the wonderful automation we have it is still a fact that the biggest contribution we can make to air safety is to ensure that the crew in the sharp end are there because of how they fly not who they are, work together as a team, receive the best training possible and are fit to fly. A study of the accident records of the two countries mentioned would confirm by historical data that this is where the low hanging safety fruit is to be had, although I believe they are making progress.
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MoKa777
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:56 pm

aviatorcraig wrote:
I've never heard of this... if it is for safety reasons it sounds like a strange broad-brush policy that is not data driven.
I for one would much rather fly on a well maintained thirty year old aircraft than a badly maintained ten year old one!
In the year 2017 with all the wonderful automation we have it is still a fact that the biggest contribution we can make to air safety is to ensure that the crew in the sharp end are there because of how they fly not who they are, work together as a team, receive the best training possible and are fit to fly. A study of the accident records of the two countries mentioned would confirm by historical data that this is where the low hanging safety fruit is to be had, although I believe they are making progress.


I agree 100% and I could not have said it better myself.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:34 am

MoKa777 wrote:
Hey everyone.

I was browsing my usual sources for airline news and came across this article:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... r-hajj-ops

Apparently, Pakistan limits their airline's to using aircraft up to 20 years old.

I believe South Korea also has a similar policy..? I could be wrong.

Which other countries have this type of policy and what are the motivations for imposing such a policy? I assume safety is one motivation. Any others?

Thanks for any input.


Simple.

Much of the public and most politicians in those countries are ignorant. When an incident/accident occurs, politicians react in a knee-jerk manner.

The 20 year limit and other nonsense policies were drawn up in the Pakistani national aviation plan/policy/whatever following a number of accidents, a failing PIA and manifesto pledges. Unsurprisingly, if you look at the incidents and accidents in Pakistan over the last few years, the greatest factor by a country mile is poor piloting.
 
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zeke
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:07 am

I think in Indonesia you cannot import passenger aircraft older tha 10 years now.

A lot of countries including the US ban older aircraft via various means, for example on Jan 1 this year if your larger biz jet or pax aircraft was not stage 3 compliant you could not operate it in the US.

Other countries mandate avionics requirements which may cost more to retrofit on older aircraft than what they are worth.

Many corporations and government contracts mandate a maximum age limit on aircraft and helicopters.
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Pellegrine
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:46 am

People should not be so quick to call developing countries lawmakers' idiots and ignorant.

I don't necessarily agree, but yes, it has to do with safety concerns given the possible lack of maintenance performed on older aircraft that might be brought into the country.

Some of these countries do not have the adequate regulatory structure to sign off on older aircraft as airworthy, therefore you have these type of blanket rules.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:33 am

Pellegrine wrote:
People should not be so quick to call developing countries lawmakers' idiots and ignorant.

I don't necessarily agree, but yes, it has to do with safety concerns given the possible lack of maintenance performed on older aircraft that might be brought into the country.

Some of these countries do not have the adequate regulatory structure to sign off on older aircraft as airworthy, therefore you have these type of blanket rules.


I agree with you. If the structural maintenance program is done according to the manufacturer and there is proper oversight, then there should be no calendar age limit. Unfortunately some regulatory authorities are not as capable at ensuring every structural repair has been analyzed and approved properly by an authorized representative. Some airlines are taking short cuts or making assumptions. The corrosion inspection program and damage tolerance inspections can be elaborate. When there is not trust that these are being done then an age limit is an artificial way to adjust for that.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:00 am

zeke wrote:
I think in Indonesia you cannot import passenger aircraft older tha 10 years now.

A lot of countries including the US ban older aircraft via various means, for example on Jan 1 this year if your larger biz jet or pax aircraft was not stage 3 compliant you could not operate it in the US.

Other countries mandate avionics requirements which may cost more to retrofit on older aircraft than what they are worth.

Many corporations and government contracts mandate a maximum age limit on aircraft and helicopters.


Avionics equipment is to improve ATC operations with CPDLC, ADS-B or reducing vertical separation. That can be retrofitted on older planes.

Noise restrictions sometime can be dealt with by retrofitting equipment and have a genuine community benefit.

I don't think those are indirect attempts to ban older aircraft. The age restrictions imposed by some countries are to make up for insufficient regulatory oversight.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:03 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
zeke wrote:
I think in Indonesia you cannot import passenger aircraft older tha 10 years now.

A lot of countries including the US ban older aircraft via various means, for example on Jan 1 this year if your larger biz jet or pax aircraft was not stage 3 compliant you could not operate it in the US.

Other countries mandate avionics requirements which may cost more to retrofit on older aircraft than what they are worth.

Many corporations and government contracts mandate a maximum age limit on aircraft and helicopters.


Avionics equipment is to improve ATC operations with CPDLC, ADS-B or reducing vertical separation. That can be retrofitted on older planes.

Noise restrictions sometime can be dealt with by retrofitting equipment and have a genuine community benefit.

I don't think those are indirect attempts to ban older aircraft. The age restrictions imposed by some countries are to make up for insufficient regulatory oversight.


Zeke is right. Many of the upcoming mandates will not be met on older aircraft. Older A320s and A330s aren't going to have the any SBs developed for updates.

Pellegrine wrote:
People should not be so quick to call developing countries lawmakers' idiots and ignorant.

I don't necessarily agree, but yes, it has to do with safety concerns given the possible lack of maintenance performed on older aircraft that might be brought into the country.


Sometimes a spade needs to be called a spade and the realities on the ground in Pakistan justify my comment.

As I noted, the safety concerns are wrongly focusing on maintenance. The focus needs to be on the pilots who write off aircraft on an alarmingly regular basis. 20 years ago, PIA had a similar piloting issue where crews were disregarding SOPs. However, their managers at the time had the courage and wisdom to swallow their pride, realise they weren't "the best pilots in the world", and they got United Airlines flight ops to do a full audit of their flight standards. Those managers are elsewhere/retired and the pilots currently at the top in Pakistan are regarded as having a Demigod status by everyone round them including the public and politicians.

I will end this comment on this fact. In our industry, there is a term which I believe was first coined in Continental or United. The term, normalis(z)ation of deviance is expressed as a % of flights where flight crews are disregarding SOPs. Where I work, that % is 35% and the industry average is about 50%. At PIA, that figure is 70%. I dare not think what the % is at the likes of airblue or shaheen.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:55 pm

Chaostheory, I think there still needs to be an emphasis on maintenance and not just pilots.

Speaking hypothetically are airlines in countries with age limits going to the manufacturer like Boeing, Airbus or a third party delegated emgineering representative who has the data and knowledge to evaluate a repair including for fatigue each time they have damage beyond the structural repair manual? Are they doing full fatigue analysis including stage 2 and stage 3 approvals and getting an FAA approved 8100-9 form when damage exceeds the limits?

In any C check for a 20 year or older airline there are going to be dozens of repairs beyond the SRM. The manufacturers and third party DERs can charge between a few thousand dollars to tens of thousands of dollars to design each repair (airlines buying new airplanes usually get those fees waived). If the fatigue analysis is not done correctly, then there is risk that the repairs will eventually fail while the airplane is in service. Every repair will eventually fail, so it takes a knowledgeable engineer to determine if the repair will last beyond the serviceable life of the airplane. There are also so many airworthiness directives, certification maintenance requirements and other requirements on top of what is in the SRM that it takes a very skilled person to analyze repairs. That is why we have limits of validity in airplanes now. A sufficiently competent regulatory agency can ensure that every repair is in compliance, but there are countries that don't have that level of oversight. In those cases, I see rudimentary measures like age limits as a way to circumvent regulatory insufficiency.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:15 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Chaostheory, I think there still needs to be an emphasis on maintenance and not just pilots.

Speaking hypothetically are airlines in countries with age limits going to the manufacturer like Boeing, Airbus or a third party delegated emgineering representative who has the data and knowledge to evaluate a repair including for fatigue each time they have damage beyond the structural repair manual? Are they doing full fatigue analysis including stage 2 and stage 3 approvals and getting an FAA approved 8100-9 form when damage exceeds the limits?

In any C check for a 20 year or older airline there are going to be dozens of repairs beyond the SRM. The manufacturers and third party DERs can charge between a few thousand dollars to tens of thousands of dollars to design each repair (airlines buying new airplanes usually get those fees waived). If the fatigue analysis is not done correctly, then there is risk that the repairs will eventually fail while the airplane is in service. Every repair will eventually fail, so it takes a knowledgeable engineer to determine if the repair will last beyond the serviceable life of the airplane. There are also so many airworthiness directives, certification maintenance requirements and other requirements on top of what is in the SRM that it takes a very skilled person to analyze repairs. That is why we have limits of validity in airplanes now. A sufficiently competent regulatory agency can ensure that every repair is in compliance, but there are countries that don't have that level of oversight. In those cases, I see rudimentary measures like age limits as a way to circumvent regulatory insufficiency.


I fail to understand how maintenance had a hand in an A321 flying into a hilltop or a 737 stalling twice and crashing during a botched windshear recovery.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:32 pm

I see the need for emphasis in both pilot training and maintenance.
 
rrlopes
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:54 pm

zeke wrote:
A lot of countries including the US ban older aircraft via various means, for example on Jan 1 this year if your larger biz jet or pax aircraft was not stage 3 compliant you could not operate it in the US.

Other countries mandate avionics requirements which may cost more to retrofit on older aircraft than what they are worth.
.


This has zero to do with the age of the aircraft. Even if it's prohibitive to retrofit an older airplane, they would rightly be allowed to fly if the technical requirements were met.

I agree with another poster that mentions that this looks to be an easy to policy to understand to compensate for lack of proper oversight.
 
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zeke
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Re: Countries that impose fleet age restrictions - Who and Why?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:35 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
Avionics equipment is to improve ATC operations with CPDLC, ADS-B or reducing vertical separation. That can be retrofitted on older planes.

Noise restrictions sometime can be dealt with by retrofitting equipment and have a genuine community benefit.


These retrofits come at a significant cost to the owner, and in many cases are economically unviable. RNP, TCAD, EGPWS, FDR, CVR can be added to your list. Getting an older aircraft retrofitted not to be stage 3 also is very expensive. It sounds simplistic to say they can be retrofitted, for example the Honeywell transponder on the early A320/A340s was not ready in time to meet the European ADS requirements (DO-260B). To update an A340 to meet just the European ADS requirements was around US$4 million per frame.

While these measure in themselves do not ban older aircraft, it has the same effect. You also see fewer older Russian designed aircraft in international airspace these days due to the cost to retrofit those aircraft.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News

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