obelau24 wrote:

The whole point of a ULCC is you pay for the seat (and maybe the space under the seat in front of you) but that's it. You could easily introduce a basic economy-type fare where you get…

drgmobile wrote:

Why not just introduce a new fare category? These flights will probably operate on completely different routes and here's the kicker -- at different labour costs, as Air Canada has done with Rouge. Note that the press release indicates this is subject to an agreement with the airline's pilots. One has to imagine that the company will be presenting its labour groups with a vision of a company that has incentives (i.e. growth in international widebody flights at "mainline") to secure their support.

Plus, I think WS is somewhat comfortable with the equilibrium it has found with AC. Introducing a new no-frills fare across their entire network would upset the balance, and likely upset WS's own profits. Introducing a whole new ULCC allows WS to act with surgical precision, versus a network-wide new fare-type.

Whiteguy wrote:

obelau24 wrote:

yycdel wrote:

Current fleet is moving to 30" pitch (higher in plus), 12/162

Is that for real? How can they justify that move when so many of their bread-and-butter routes are at least 3 hours - everything in the Americans and Caribbean and transcontinental. Guests will vote with their feet for sure. Honestly, WS needs to reinvest in itself to improve the product offering or go back to LCC. If they do go along with the ULCC plan then they need to go full service. Dispense with the Plus seating and install real business class, introduce actual meals for purchase and the opportunity to buy meals in advance, instead of sandwiches and cheese platters, improve seat pitch in Economy, and improve WestJet rewards to include more carriers and options for reward redemption on Partners. This isn't the WS I once knew and I'm liking it less and less. We used to joke with our guests at check in that every seat on WestJet was first class. Now it's an insult to injury.

Yet people have no problem with Rouge 29" pitch. As for WS, the seat pitch is slightly different depending on the location in the cabin. Also the MAXs will be coming with ovens and the 800s will be having them installed, so you will see changes.

Many people do have a problem with 29" pitch. They tolerate it if the price is low enough/short journey or book another airline next time if the price is close.

I don't think I have seen a positive review of the Rouge 29" pitch seats

Don't even get me started with WS's consistent delays. Go to any airport in Canada and the majority of delays on the screen have a little blue logo banner beside them.

In one week alone I've had 11 out of 12 delays and 2 missed connections.

readytotaxi wrote:

hoons90 wrote:

Source: http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/we ... 41133.html
https://blog.westjet.com/westjet-announ ... nt:twitter

Initial fleet is planned to comprise of 10 737-800s in a high-density layout. The new venture is yet to be named.

Sardine Airlines?

That would be something to Hawaii and Cancun on a 3-3-3 A333 in Y.

I was expecting the -600 subfleet to be switched to this subsidiary ULCC.

Dominion301 wrote:

Wow, of all the airlines in the world WestJet is the last one I would have thought of that would launch an airline within an airline.

I wonder how YYZ-centric this airline will be or if this will be the real tool to block new entrants and finish off New Leaf by basing it at YHM?

No one is going to purchase (or lease) ten aircraft to finish off a non-airline (New Leaf).

It will be interesting to see how WestJet avoids stealing customers from itself.

BobPatterson wrote:

No one is going to purchase (or lease) ten aircraft to finish off a non-airline (New Leaf).

I don't think anyone here assumes that New Leaf (and possibly Canada Jetlines) is the only reason WS would do this. If WS didn't see a market, it's safe to assume they would not spend the money. It is debatable, however, whether WS would do this if competition hadn't come along. I'm sure WS would prefer the status quo. In western capitalist nations, the duopoly is the ideal scenario. The government will prevent monopolies, so you need a competitor. What better than only one competitor with whom you can find a nice balance? (I know that there are others like TS and WG, but they're pretty small players)

aerolimani wrote:

BobPatterson wrote:

No one is going to purchase (or lease) ten aircraft to finish off a non-airline (New Leaf).

I don't think anyone here assumes that New Leaf (and possibly Canada Jetlines) is the only reason WS would do this. If WS didn't see a market, it's safe to assume they would not spend the money. It is debatable, however, whether WS would do this if competition hadn't come along. I'm sure WS would prefer the status quo. In western capitalist nations, the duopoly is the ideal scenario. The government will prevent monopolies, so you need a competitor. What better than only one competitor with whom you can find a nice balance? (I know that there are others like TS and WG, but they're pretty small players)

Dismissing the small players from the equation (not worth investing in 10 aircraft for them alone) there are just three sources of passengers for WestJet to fill the new ULCC planes:

1. Generate new traffic by attracting new air travelers who aren't flying because of present costs.

2. Steal your own customers for your lower-cost start-up.

3. Steal many more passengers from AC and its affiliates.

Seems to me that #3 is the most likely target. Somehow I doubt that WestJet is satisfied with a comfortable niche.

BobPatterson wrote:

Dismissing the small players from the equation (not worth investing in 10 aircraft for them alone) there are just three sources of passengers for WestJet to fill the new ULCC planes:

1. Generate new traffic by attracting new air travelers who aren't flying because of present costs.

2. Steal your own customers for your lower-cost start-up.

3. Steal many more passengers from AC and its affiliates.

Seems to me that #3 is the most likely target. Somehow I doubt that WestJet is satisfied with a comfortable niche.

And what routes would you suggest that Westjet ULCC fly, that would "steal" Air Canada passengers, that Westjet itself is not already flying? (thus risking competing with their own flights).

If one looks at Rouge's game plan, you will see that at no time, did Air Canada and Rouge ever fly the same route at the same time. (other than overlap during the transition). Looking in the past, one sees many "airline within an airline" failed attempts. One of the causes often cited is confusion for the passenger when flying both versions of the same airline on the same trip, or successive trips.

yycdel wrote:

Whiteguy wrote:

obelau24 wrote:

Is that for real? How can they justify that move when so many of their bread-and-butter routes are at least 3 hours - everything in the Americans and Caribbean and transcontinental. Guests will vote with their feet for sure. Honestly, WS needs to reinvest in itself to improve the product offering or go back to LCC. If they do go along with the ULCC plan then they need to go full service. Dispense with the Plus seating and install real business class, introduce actual meals for purchase and the opportunity to buy meals in advance, instead of sandwiches and cheese platters, improve seat pitch in Economy, and improve WestJet rewards to include more carriers and options for reward redemption on Partners. This isn't the WS I once knew and I'm liking it less and less. We used to joke with our guests at check in that every seat on WestJet was first class. Now it's an insult to injury.

Yet people have no problem with Rouge 29" pitch. As for WS, the seat pitch is slightly different depending on the location in the cabin. Also the MAXs will be coming with ovens and the 800s will be having them installed, so you will see changes.

Many people do have a problem with 29" pitch. They tolerate it if the price is low enough/short journey or book another airline next time if the price is close.

I don't think I have seen a positive review of the Rouge 29" pitch seats

Having flown my first 30" pitch trip this week on Compass, I will not be booking that again. Even the 31" on Delta mainline was tight. It might just be time for me to suck it up and pay a bit more and be willing to use alternate airports (alternate, as in other than my first choice) in order to use JetBlue or someone else with at least 33" of pitch in their main cabin. I'd rather do that than be forced to pay a premium for Y+ and I sure as heck don't want to do 30" (or less) again. I respect, though, that there are those who are fine with it, and I certainly respect that.

This new WestJet-lite will not be primarily targeting Rouge. Rouge serves AC's leisure routes out of their 4 hubs. WS mainline competes perfectly fine with Rouge on said routes without trashing yields.

This is all about trying to prevent the real startups from appearing. It's better to compete with yourself than to have a 3rd player break the duopoly...even in the east, WS don't compete much with PD given how small WS still are east of YYZ.

I'd place my bets on YHM being the base of this new airline. Look at WS' sudden rediscovery of YHM over the past year as evidence of that. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see WS mainline disappear from YHM altogether thereby stifling ASM growth.

sixtyseven wrote:

My two cents. If ULCCs were going to exploit the market Norweigan would be here already. The fee system doesn't set up for it.

I think this is an anti pilot union play. Saretsky has said he's going to fight it to the end. Here's one set up in a tee for the in house union which has given him everything he's wanted. This announcement will get the pilots spinning. The in house shop will come up with a way to "defeat" this and have another "reason" to keep things in house.

Do you really think WestJet is worried about new leaf? This is nonsense.

Absolutely. This is not really going to significantly benefit many Canadian travelers. They are not going to be offering ULCC service on Canadian trunk routes which could really do with fare reductions, they will continue to enjoy their duopoly with AC and rake in the bucks.

One airline that has grown hugely over the past few years that no one has mentioned is Sunwing. This new venture will be to leisure destinations like CUN, PVR etc which are already well served by cheap fares and packages, not only by TS & RV, but also WG. IMO this is more about competing with WG (and TS) and their "cheap labor" through seasonal lease deals and getting more of that market share. WS are already a tightly run ship. They can increase revenue potential by adding more seats to a Ryanair Y189. However, sadly the only way they can significantly further reduce their current cost base is by reducing their costs on crew. The Canadian traveler can already get what this new carrier will offer IMO so they are not exactly big time winners, just more choice. Guess who the losers are.

longhauler wrote:

BobPatterson wrote:

Dismissing the small players from the equation (not worth investing in 10 aircraft for them alone) there are just three sources of passengers for WestJet to fill the new ULCC planes:

1. Generate new traffic by attracting new air travelers who aren't flying because of present costs.

2. Steal your own customers for your lower-cost start-up.

3. Steal many more passengers from AC and its affiliates.

Seems to me that #3 is the most likely target. Somehow I doubt that WestJet is satisfied with a comfortable niche.

And what routes would you suggest that Westjet ULCC fly, that would "steal" Air Canada passengers, that Westjet itself is not already flying? (thus risking competing with their own flights).

If one looks at Rouge's game plan, you will see that at no time, did Air Canada and Rouge ever fly the same route at the same time. (other than overlap during the transition). Looking in the past, one sees many "airline within an airline" failed attempts. One of the causes often cited is confusion for the passenger when flying both versions of the same airline on the same trip, or successive trips.

I certainly bow to your knowledge of Canadian competition. However, I don't think this can be primarily about routes (except see below), though they ultimately come into play.

It must primarily be about reducing costs. Just as there are huge numbers of passengers who have not (yet) left US3 legacies for lower-cost competitors, I suspect that is also the case in Canada. There is still a market to be tapped there with sufficient price difference.

I should have listed a fourth possibility for source of customers:

4. Snowbirds and tour groups. I wonder if some of those 10 aircraft will spend part of the year flying for European tour operators.

And, the plans are being postponed.

WestJet delays launch of discount airline until 2018

As another reason for WS to start up a ULCC, the author of the article suggests the following:

The service will be separate from WestJet, with a new head-office staff moving to an independent location early next year. The new airline will also be separate from the various stages of union efforts underway at WestJet itself.

Damn, another blow to DTW as the ultra low cost US O&D mega entry port to Canada. DTW-YHZ shuttle delayed yet again.

aerolimani wrote:

And, the plans are being postponed.

WestJet delays launch of discount airline until 2018

As another reason for WS to start up a ULCC, the author of the article suggests the following:

The service will be separate from WestJet, with a new head-office staff moving to an independent location early next year. The new airline will also be separate from the various stages of union efforts underway at WestJet itself.

This has YHM written all over it. Every other ULCC's startup plan involves YHM. It would also allow for WS to get mainline out of YHM, save for a couple of flights per day to feed the YYC hub. This would have the added benefit of reducing mainline ASMs to partially offset the ULCC's startup's ASMs.

raylee67 wrote:

Transat and Rouge are not real ULCC. e.g. Rouge still allows free carry-on, and check-in luggage pricing is flat. And I think you still get a free drink on board.
It seems that WestJet is really seeing NewLeaf as a credible threat. First Mesa Airport flights, now this.

If the Wikipedia page for Newleaf/Flair Airlines is accurate, it is more a joke than a threat. Please enlighten me.