Varsity1
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:55 pm

Indy wrote:
They should absolutely be allowed. As long as they comply with all U.S. rules and regulations I really don't care who owns them. Of course competition means legacy carriers cannot get away with treating their customers like crap. Competition is good for consumers and will hopefully weed out the poorly run airlines.


What makes an airline 'poorly run'? A US major hasn't killed anybody in a decade. Quite a few of these foreign carries cannot make that claim. Including EK.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:00 pm

Indy wrote:
They should absolutely be allowed. As long as they comply with all U.S. rules and regulations I really don't care who owns them. Of course competition means legacy carriers cannot get away with treating their customers like crap. Competition is good for consumers and will hopefully weed out the poorly run airlines.


No legacy airline is without competition today, yet they manage to treat customers like crap all the time.

Those problems can be solved only by uniform regulations across the industry, or by consumer-oriented change of heart on the part of airline managements (don't hold your breath).

Bringing foreign ownership into the picture will not solve any current problems in the USA airline industry.

Diluting the profitability of domestic US airlines will also not solve any problems (if foreign ownership actually adds more seats to the domestic market by introducing more airlines).
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:04 pm

ZyreaxPlayz wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
exunited wrote:
No, CRAF. End of discussion until it comes up next week.
Is there any reason that CRAF couldn't apply to any plane that flies a US domestic route no matter the owner?

Are you nuts? Seriously, are you joking? Do some research on CRAF and tell me what you find! An airline would be supporting a nations, not of it's origins, government and military.
My own opinion on this subject: No, there are plenty of fresh, new airlines that could get into the competition, we don't need a Deutsche BA or such in the USA.
Ok. I did some research and found it is voluntary. There are at least three airlines operating domestic flights that are not included (and this doesn't count the regionals).
 
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scbriml
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:28 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Why should we destroy one of the lone successful airline markets in the world to let XYZ Air from tiny country Z capacity dump in it? You need to consider more than a ticket price.


Destroy? 99.9% of airline passengers only care about the price of their ticket. Nothing else. They don't care if they fly JFK-LAX on UA, AA, DL or BA, EK, LH whichever offers the cheapest ticket.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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DDR
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:32 pm

No! For all the reasons the intelligent posters have already described. Not sure why the non-Americans are even posting, this would only affect the U.S.
Also, everyone needs to keep in mind, yes the airlines are currently profitable but has history has repeatedly shown, the good times don't last forever.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:36 pm

The posters who think foreign-run airlines would provide some type of over-the-top Utopian service if allowed to operate domestic flights in the US is laughable. Anyone who does think that needs to spend 2-3 months in Europe flying domestic and intra-European flights on a regular basis.
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:36 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Owning 25% of a company buys you all the trouble with none of the benefits.

Of course the US should be open to foreign competition on domestic routes, same as e.g. the EU should allow it.

But it's not going to happen, the lobbyism of EU and US airlines will prevent that from happening - regardless of which administration is at the helm.


I don't think the US will allow it unless another country agrees to allow Americans to own one of their airlines. Earlier someone said that Switzerland and India allow for foreign ownership of their airlines. I think that India might be an interesting market. I think Asia or South America would interesting.
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KanaHawaii
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:56 pm

I would say that a proposal like this would only be desired if, ever, the entire airline industry in America collapses - with the US3 and the smaller regional airlines going belly up. Only then, and only because it would instantly help with lift that disappeared from the shutdown of the industry in America itself, can I see the ownership rules change.
 
vadodara
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:01 pm

YIMBY wrote:
All restrictions for ownership is just protectionism for the companies instead of citizens. There is no justified reason for artificial restrictions of ownership or cabotage, neither related to safety, security, military, environment, health or economy. It is enough to require that foreign companies operate with the same standards as the local ones.

This concerns also my country and EU.


Spot on!
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:06 pm

jeffrey1970 wrote:
I don't think the US will allow it unless another country agrees to allow Americans to own one of their airlines. Earlier someone said that Switzerland and India allow for foreign ownership of their airlines. I think that India might be an interesting market. I think Asia or South America would interesting.


You can add Brazil to the list of countries that allow full foreign ownership. At least, they're planning to. It doesn't cost any problems there as these airlines are still Brazilian registered and bound to Brazilian laws. Only the owner is foreign. If it works over there, why shouldn't it work in the US?

Many people here immediately shout no without even thinking what is actually being proposed. Suppose an American airline is in financial trouble and they need an investor to keep them from going belly-up? Then a foreign investor shows up and says he wants to invest money and save the airline, but the US law says no. No foreign investors allowed. The result could be that the airline is not being saved. An unnecessary loss for the American aviation business and a missed chance for the foreign investor.
 
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ua900
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:09 pm

US airlines offer a wide array of choices, everything from basic economy to domestic lie flats / DL Private Jets. Access to these products is more democratic than in any other country, all it takes is money. The official motto of all US airlines, from the US 3 to NK is "anything for a buck". For the right price, they will treat you like royalty, including Porsche Cayenne transfers, very private handling, top notch facilities, concierges, porters, anything you want. Most people wanted prices to stay the same or fall slightly, and that explains today's product mix. Something for everyone.

In the U.S., one doesn't need to be a member of parliament to fly first class, we don't have an Air India that can be commandeered on the whim of a local politico. We also don't require the intervention of national aviation authorities to better cater to the needs of political representatives or let them onboard again after slapping people. Many other countries have that as well btw, not just India.

As for outfits like Virgin America, while it's disappearing it was a great example of an essentially foreign operation acting through U.S. straw men. While they turned out to be unreliable from Branson's point of view, he (and others) are certainly welcome to do another incarnation of Virgin America. The success of the innovation to brought to the table shows that you can still be successful when you have a different product for which there is no direct substitute.

If anyone thinks that a domestic Norwegian or Ryanair would be successful, think again. That business model depends on slave labor and skirting U.S. regulations as much as possible. Had that been feasible in the U.S., then someone like Irelandia Aviation would have found a local straw man and started something stateside, as they did in Mexico through VivaAerobus or in Colombia through VivaColombia.
Last edited by ua900 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Planesmart
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:12 pm

vadodara wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
All restrictions for ownership is just protectionism for the companies instead of citizens. There is no justified reason for artificial restrictions of ownership or cabotage, neither related to safety, security, military, environment, health or economy. It is enough to require that foreign companies operate with the same standards as the local ones.

This concerns also my country and EU.


Spot on!

Another argument for protection, used to be profit retention within the country. That's not even guaranteed any more.
 
Oykie
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:12 pm

I recently flew AA from LHR to LAX, and in my opinion the service in economy was better than my Qatar flight from DOH-MEL. More of the cabin crew interacting with passengers, and more beverages. I was impressed by the AA service level. Do I believe foreign ownership will make the service even better? No, but it will be good in the way that the unions and employers need to cooperate more. I fear the good times the us airline industry is currently enjoying will make it even harder for U.S. Airlines to compete. They already struggle to compete internationally. It regards to this I favor foreign ownership or foreign airlines allowed Intro U.S. Market.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:19 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Foreign airlines have worse safety records, worse working conditions and are less profitable.


You got any proof for those statements? Because I really don't believe them. I'd say they are lies made up to protect the image of the US based carriers over foreign airlines. However, you shouldn't believe everything you read. You should investigate. If you did that, you'd find out that everything you stated here is untrue. Foreign airlines are just as safe as US based airlines, overall the working conditions are pretty comparable (altough there are huge differences) and some foreign airlines are among the most profitable airlines in the world.

Besides, even if a US based airline was foreign owned, it wouldn't make any difference. They'd still be bound to the same laws, it would still be a level playing field. They'd have no benefits over US owned airlines, and neither would the US owned airlines have any benefits over foreign owned airlines.

Of course people here fear for a "Norwegian USA". Very likely Norwegian would start something like that if they had the chance. Apply for an American AOC that gives them the same rights and duties as American, Delta and United. But like I said, it's a level playing field. There's nothing Norwegian could do that the US3 can't.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:26 pm

DDR wrote:
Not sure why the non-Americans are even posting, this would only affect the U.S.

Because 'non-Americans' spend money when they visit the USA for business, family and recreation, and use US-owned airlines.

And perhaps unlike some 'American' posters, have a passport, and first-hand experience, of both US and non-US owned airlines, and are therefore in a position to make an informed comparison.
 
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Polot
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:26 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Of course people here fear for a "Norwegian USA". Very likely Norwegian would start something like that if they had the chance. Apply for an American AOC that gives them the same rights and duties as American, Delta and United. But like I said, it's a level playing field. There's nothing Norwegian could do that the US3 can't.

The big problem is the risk of EY USA and similar. US Airline owned by foreign-government owned airline who can funnel as much money as their government wants into their American subsidiary and basically kill off the competition by bleeding them dry while the foreign government subsidizes their loses.

Allowing 100% foreign air ownership in the US would be a clusterfuck without careful regulation. You would have airlines constantly popping up out of the woodwork and then dying shortly thereafter which would make the entire domestic air network chaotic.
 
DDR
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:30 pm

Planesmart wrote:
DDR wrote:
Not sure why the non-Americans are even posting, this would only affect the U.S.

Because 'non-Americans' spend money when they visit the USA for business, family and recreation, and use US-owned airlines.

And perhaps unlike some 'American' posters, have a passport, and first-hand experience, of both US and non-US owned airlines, and are therefore in a position to make an informed comparison.


Sorry, but I have flown a lot of intra European flights and none of them are any better than U.S. short and mid haul. So don't act like you are getting ripped off by having to fly an American carrier in the U.S.
 
winginit
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:18 pm

anshabhi wrote:
US is a huge market, with deteriorating customer service standards


What's your point of comparison if I may ask?

Prior to deregulation, or even post de-regulation before the turn of the century, I could fly between LAX and JFK no problem, and the service would be fine and yes there would be a bit more legroom today depending on my seat selection and price point. Warm meals were carted up and down the aisle, and everyone was in a suit or dress. And you know what? It cost an absolute fortune.

Today, on virtually any major carrier, not only do I still have someone walking up and down the aisle offering food, but if I pay for it I can have a lie-flat bed, thousands of hours worth of movies, and high speed in-flight internet that can to some degree replicate my home or office. And you know what? It's cheaper than it was at virtually any other time in history.

So tell me again how the service standards have come crashing down here in the US?
 
DDR
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:34 pm

winginit wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
US is a huge market, with deteriorating customer service standards


What's your point of comparison if I may ask?

Prior to deregulation, or even post de-regulation before the turn of the century, I could fly between LAX and JFK no problem, and the service would be fine and yes there would be a bit more legroom today depending on my seat selection and price point. Warm meals were carted up and down the aisle, and everyone was in a suit or dress. And you know what? It cost an absolute fortune.

Today, on virtually any major carrier, not only do I still have someone walking up and down the aisle offering food, but if I pay for it I can have a lie-flat bed, thousands of hours worth of movies, and high speed in-flight internet that can to some degree replicate my home or office. And you know what? It's cheaper than it was at virtually any other time in history.

So tell me again how the service standards have come crashing down here in the US?


Exactly. Cheaper fares are what people want and that's what they are getting.
 
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ZyreaxPlayz
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:35 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
ZyreaxPlayz wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Is there any reason that CRAF couldn't apply to any plane that flies a US domestic route no matter the owner?

Are you nuts? Seriously, are you joking? Do some research on CRAF and tell me what you find! An airline would be supporting a nations, not of it's origins, government and military.
My own opinion on this subject: No, there are plenty of fresh, new airlines that could get into the competition, we don't need a Deutsche BA or such in the USA.
Ok. I did some research and found it is voluntary. There are at least three airlines operating domestic flights that are not included (and this doesn't count the regionals).

Lol, sorry. I was trying to just quote the piece you quoted. My bad. Hey though, I got you to do a bit of research. Bravo.
 
c7aero
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:53 pm

Of course. In my mind, there are no reasons other than protectionism and tradition to justify capping foreign ownership of airlines at 25% (or lower than 100% for that matter). Budweiser is owned by Anheuser-Busch InBev, Belgium; IBM PC Business and Motorola Mobility by Lenovo, China; General Electric by Qingdao Hair Co, China; Ben & Jerry’s by Unilever, a Dutch-UK company; Burger King by 3G Capital, Brazil, etc.

https://www.aol.com/article/2016/05/25/ ... /21383786/
 
flyingcat
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:00 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
I did some research and found it is voluntary. There are at least three airlines operating domestic flights that are not included (and this doesn't count the regionals).


If you are not in CRAF you can forget about bidding for the GSA program which cuts you off from Federal employees and the Military. In addition contractors associated with the government won't touch you with a 10 foot pole. Plus CRAF participation or lack thereof definitely comes up if you are competing for slots or international access.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:39 pm

DDR wrote:
Sorry, but I have flown a lot of intra European flights and none of them are any better than U.S. short and mid haul. So don't act like you are getting ripped off by having to fly an American carrier in the U.S.


Maybe not better, but possibly cheaper. Don't forget that price is a marketing instrument too and flights in Europe are often cheaper than flights in America.

If any foreign owned airline wants to give it a shot at the US domestic market I'd say give it a go. It's good to shake things up every once in a while, it keeps the airlines competitive.
 
OB1504
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:39 pm

No.

Unless...

andrej wrote:
Yes, if US owned airlines can fly domestic routes elsewhere. That's fair.


This is the most reasonable response in this thread.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:45 pm

flyingcat wrote:
If you are not in CRAF you can forget about bidding for the GSA program which cuts you off from Federal employees and the Military. In addition contractors associated with the government won't touch you with a 10 foot pole. Plus CRAF participation or lack thereof definitely comes up if you are competing for slots or international access.


It just depends on what you're aiming at as an airline and not every airline is aiming at the same thing. If an airline thinks they can do without federal employees and military they're free to do so of course. Competing for slots might be a problem at some airports, but there still are plenty of airports where there's no shortage of slots and you can just get them. The ones that are more difficult you can just avoid. This does mean not serving some destinations, but so what? You don't have to serve every destination. International access? Depends on if you think your airline needs that. If you think you can live on domestic service only this is totally unimportant.
 
grbauc
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:05 pm

anshabhi wrote:
grbauc wrote:
1. Calculated misery- it's what consumers want. It's not just a US thing look at all the bare bones economy only flights in Europe. Heck I'm flying BA intra Europe and it's a economy seat with the middle blocked. I'm on a international first class ticket.

2. Lack of competition- really? we have 4 national airlines (AA,DL,UA,WN) that have a balanced national domestic route map. We also have two large regional airlines (AS,B6) west and east coast centric route maps. ULCC Spirit airlines, allegiant airlines and maybe another I'm forgetting.
Lack of competition I don't think so. We just have a very well-balanced airline route map in the country and airfares are as low as they were 15 to 20 years ago.

3. Informal agreements- there are plenty of fare wars!!! do you follow the treads here on A-net. Chicago is heating AA vs UA or Seattle DL vs AS and AA vs DL in LAX. There are so many it would be fun to list them. Those are three hub battles there are many many little city pairs that are constantly flaring up with retaliatory fares Wars. See flyertalk mileage run treads

If you want to better customer experience maybe try flying JetBlue or Alaska Airlines they're smaller operations and can give more of a personal service versus maybe the four mega large for domestic airlines. Or pay more for first class maybe that will give a better customer experience.

Look the old business model of flying planes half empty with wildly fluctuating prices with 7-8 large regional airlines is a bust model. Employees and stock holders and tax payers were subsidizing the broken model and all were losing. Employee pension and stocks disappearing in BK's US tax payers bailing them out. We have a fairly equal and balanced system right now that should be good for employees the businesses and consumers.

Airlines are adding e+ seating PE on international flights if consumers really want these things the airlines will for sure give them to them.


1. Really customers want this? Or are they simply out of choice? E+ of 2017 is the same as Economy of 2000.

2. Yeah! Different provider, similar service, same product. Air fares might not be the best thing to compare a market's condition. Service levels have also reduced a lot since then.
Here in India, fares have decreased by upto 50% compared to 15-20 years earlier, because of LCCs.

3. Once again, different provider for the same service.

Any foreign owned airline will survive only if it's able to earn money, which will ensure the health of entire market. I am not saying shut down the existing carriers. Only increase the competition​.

Civil Reserve and maintenance practices... Airlines are very tangible commodities. They can't disappear with their planes over night, only because they won't serve the military....
FAA & other regulatory authorities will allow it to function only if it fulfills all the existing safety criterion.


1, They want FC with ULCC prices so yes it's what they want. It's where the market is growing the fastest.

2, Airfares are a good thing to compare conditions on. Conditions are where they are mostly due to people only wanting to pay the bare minimum for travel. Employees have subsidized with there pensions and wage reductions and give backs / Wacky pricing model where a few are subsidizing the many empty seats. The old model of flying half empty planes with more pitch for everyone even if they don't want to pay for it is bunk.

3, I believe your reasons for wanting foreign owned airlines flying domestic flights is flawed. I do think its a good question and am open to it personally. If the reason for having It (foreign airlines operating domestic) is due to what you state heck no. But if the EU were to open up domestic flights to US airlines then I might be open to the return. I personally believe has of so far the merger are a huge success. Its still early and well see has the next crop of small players is getting bigger how that fairs out.
 
grbauc
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:10 pm

DDR wrote:
winginit wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
US is a huge market, with deteriorating customer service standards


What's your point of comparison if I may ask?

Prior to deregulation, or even post de-regulation before the turn of the century, I could fly between LAX and JFK no problem, and the service would be fine and yes there would be a bit more legroom today depending on my seat selection and price point. Warm meals were carted up and down the aisle, and everyone was in a suit or dress. And you know what? It cost an absolute fortune.

Today, on virtually any major carrier, not only do I still have someone walking up and down the aisle offering food, but if I pay for it I can have a lie-flat bed, thousands of hours worth of movies, and high speed in-flight internet that can to some degree replicate my home or office. And you know what? It's cheaper than it was at virtually any other time in history.

So tell me again how the service standards have come crashing down here in the US?


Exactly. Cheaper fares are what people want and that's what they are getting.



100% agree. :biggrin: :bouncy: :bigthumbsup:
 
seat38a
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:43 pm

To ALL you NON US Residents who have an opinion on what we should do with our airline market, its really non of your business and really up to the US voters if WE decide to allow foreign ownership or abandon CRAF etc. Just because your country allowed 100% foreign ownership does not mean its the best solution for every country on the planet. Considering that the airlines of the OP's country has been bleeding money for the past 10 years and just recently started making a small profit primarily by low cost carriers, lets see how long all the "competition" will last when the majority go bust because they can't fight off the deep pockets of the ME carriers.

I also want to see how long it will be before some of these countries start playing favoritism to their local carriers over the foreign owned carriers when it comes to awarding routes and such. Lufthansa already said they won't run back in. Makes sense since the've been burned once already.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... ds-the-key
 
grbauc
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:00 am

seat38a wrote:
To ALL you NON US Residents who have an opinion on what we should do with our airline market, its really non of your business and really up to the US voters if WE decide to allow foreign ownership or abandon CRAF etc. Just because your country allowed 100% foreign ownership does not mean its the best solution for every country on the planet. Considering that the airlines of the OP's country has been bleeding money for the past 10 years and just recently started making a small profit primarily by low cost carriers, lets see how long all the "competition" will last when the majority go bust because they can't fight off the deep pockets of the ME carriers.

I also want to see how long it will be before some of these countries start playing favoritism to their local carriers over the foreign owned carriers when it comes to awarding routes and such. Lufthansa already said they won't run back in. Makes sense since the've been burned once already.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... ds-the-key


Its a discussion forum and having and getting outside information and points of view does add to the discussion. Its not up for vote and is a question posted by a poster in a community forum of aviation enthusiasts. If there Country does allow 100% ownership it would be good to hear from them to see the pro's and con's.
 
reltney
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:48 am

No, not allowed.
I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
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par13del
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:34 am

So which foreign airline that now offers superior service on international flights wants to start a US based airline to offer international service? My take, none, any foreign airline or investor looking to own a US carrier is looking strictly at the domestic market.
Now how will an airline start in the US, offer superior service while offering lower prices to draw customers away from the incumbents?
Who is going to subsidize their fuel, maintenance cost, and where will they get staff to work for lower wages than what is now paid to current airline employees? Let's not forget that Chpt.11 was used to cut salaries and dump pensions.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:39 am

YIMBY wrote:
Civil Reserve is an obsolete and flawed excuse. First, it is not needed for any reasonable case, as most civil airliners are not suitable for military use and the US military particularly has a huge supply of military transport planes. They could even make their own reserve from outdated airliners converted to reserve transport planes.

These statements, you clearly demonstrate that you no clue what you're talking about in this regard.


YIMBY wrote:
Second, in case of a total war the US government can equally confiscate any airliner

...via the legal mechanism that you just (erroneously) referred to as "obsolete."


YIMBY wrote:
No capitalist run airliner will do small-community air service unless it is profitable for them. If it is not profitable, then the local authorities may subsidize that and whoever can bid for that. I am generally against supporting airlines by taxpayer money - it has happened in my countries also, and many of the airlines winning the contracts are foreign companies.

Refer to Reply#27.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
infinit
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:16 am

This will never happen. The US, the world's largest aviation market at present, is not going to allow foreign airlines to have a slice of the pie. On another note, neither would China which is a very large market as well.

If they actually did in some alternate reality, I'd love to fly Singapore Airlines USA!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:42 am

Varsity1 wrote:
The naivety of this board is outstanding

That would be the fairest summation of some of the ridiculous proposals in this thread.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
C010T3
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:15 am

The US should allow 100% foreign ownership by nationals of countries with which the US reaches a a bilateral agreement for reciprocity.
US airlines are currently in the best position to drive global consolidation.
 
Indy
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:32 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Indy wrote:
They should absolutely be allowed. As long as they comply with all U.S. rules and regulations I really don't care who owns them. Of course competition means legacy carriers cannot get away with treating their customers like crap. Competition is good for consumers and will hopefully weed out the poorly run airlines.


What makes an airline 'poorly run'? A US major hasn't killed anybody in a decade. Quite a few of these foreign carries cannot make that claim. Including EK.


You don't have to kill a person to treat them poorly. You can start with nickle & dime charges, shrinking seats, reduced in flight service, delays, poor compensation, general contempt towards customers, and a hub & spoke system which is suspect at best.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
dc10lover
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:42 am

American, Delta & United would go bankrupt. You would rather fly SQ or CX between LAX & JFK.
Ever Wish You Can Go Back In Time And Live In An Earlier Era Of Aviation?
 
jumbojet
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:56 am

for UA's sake, no. They would hate that. They would have to actually seriously consider treating customers with real respect and stop brutalizing them.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:02 am

C010T3 wrote:
The US should allow 100% foreign ownership by nationals of countries with which the US reaches a a bilateral agreement for reciprocity.
US airlines are currently in the best position to drive global consolidation.


What do you intend to mean by "global consolidation"? US airlines taking over foreign airlines and their route systems?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:18 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
DDR wrote:
Sorry, but I have flown a lot of intra European flights and none of them are any better than U.S. short and mid haul. So don't act like you are getting ripped off by having to fly an American carrier in the U.S.


Maybe not better, but possibly cheaper. Don't forget that price is a marketing instrument too and flights in Europe are often cheaper than flights in America.

If any foreign owned airline wants to give it a shot at the US domestic market I'd say give it a go. It's good to shake things up every once in a while, it keeps the airlines competitive.


Have you looked at a map lately? The routes in europe are obscenely short. Some of the shortest in the world infact. London and Paris are 200 miles apart. That won't even get me half way across Kansas.

Fares are cheap in europe because the flights are short. Aircraft utilization is incredibly high as a result. Flying 6 legs vs. 3 cut the per unit capital costs in half before we even get to marginal costs (fuel).

Berlin to Tehran is the same distance as New York to San Fransisco. Still Shorter than NY to LA.

Perhaps consider the obvious before suggesting to haphazardly alter an economy.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:22 am

Indy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Indy wrote:
They should absolutely be allowed. As long as they comply with all U.S. rules and regulations I really don't care who owns them. Of course competition means legacy carriers cannot get away with treating their customers like crap. Competition is good for consumers and will hopefully weed out the poorly run airlines.


What makes an airline 'poorly run'? A US major hasn't killed anybody in a decade. Quite a few of these foreign carries cannot make that claim. Including EK.


You don't have to kill a person to treat them poorly. You can start with nickle & dime charges, shrinking seats, reduced in flight service, delays, poor compensation, general contempt towards customers, and a hub & spoke system which is suspect at best.


What's wrong with a hub and spoke system? This isn't Europe. Some of you seem insanely out of touch with the differences in population density between the US and abroad.

Have you flown in the EU recently? It's nickle and dime heaven.
 
caverunner17
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:37 am

grbauc wrote:
anshabhi wrote:

2. Lack of competition- really? we have 4 national airlines (AA,DL,UA,WN) that have a balanced national domestic route map. We also have two large regional airlines (AS,B6) west and east coast centric route maps. ULCC Spirit airlines, allegiant airlines and maybe another I'm forgetting.
Lack of competition I don't think so. We just have a very well-balanced airline route map in the country and airfares are as low as they were 15 to 20 years ago.

The US , China and Europe are roughly the same square mileage (3.7 million, 3.7 million vs 3.9 million)

Europe has EI, BA, IB, LH, SN, LX, AY, AZ, AF, KL, LO, TP, OS, SK as major long-haul international flag carrier airlines. Not to mention a number of LCC's and ULCCs.

China has CA, MU, CZ, HU, MF, FM, ZH, and CX/BR if you want to include legal Chinese territories along with a number of smaller international and domestic airlines.

The US has AA, DL, UA, and WN, along with a few small regional players (Alaska/Virgin and Jet Blue) and 2 main ULCC's (F9 and NK)

You can't tell me that the US has competition.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:53 am

Here, till now, passengers want foreign airlines. employees don't.
 
grbauc
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:41 am

caverunner17 wrote:
grbauc wrote:
anshabhi wrote:

2. Lack of competition- really? we have 4 national airlines (AA,DL,UA,WN) that have a balanced national domestic route map. We also have two large regional airlines (AS,B6) west and east coast centric route maps. ULCC Spirit airlines, allegiant airlines and maybe another I'm forgetting.
Lack of competition I don't think so. We just have a very well-balanced airline route map in the country and airfares are as low as they were 15 to 20 years ago.

The US , China and Europe are roughly the same square mileage (3.7 million, 3.7 million vs 3.9 million)

Europe has EI, BA, IB, LH, SN, LX, AY, AZ, AF, KL, LO, TP, OS, SK as major long-haul international flag carrier airlines. Not to mention a number of LCC's and ULCCs.

China has CA, MU, CZ, HU, MF, FM, ZH, and CX/BR if you want to include legal Chinese territories along with a number of smaller international and domestic airlines.

The US has AA, DL, UA, and WN, along with a few small regional players (Alaska/Virgin and Jet Blue) and 2 main ULCC's (F9 and NK)

You can't tell me that the US has competition.


Airfares say we have a fair/decent or competitive amount of competition. I will agree with you that we need and I hope to see the continued growth of the regional players and continued market growth from the ULCC and new entrants. I do believe more players in the long run will be healthy and needed to keep the nice equilibrium we appear to have now. I'm also open to the discussion of foreign ownership and possible domestic routes. Especially if the balance we see now changes in the future.

We use to have NW CO US AirTran TWA and others but one of the reasons there was such instability was there were to many players and fragmented route maps. There were many reasons for the up and down and unstable airline industry.

Europe is a large conglomeration of counties that have just come together recently and does not tell us what will be a healthy balance and is still working its self out and what will be good for the EU.

China is or would be a great one to compare but its a regulated market with the Government finger prints all over it. I don't believe its a good example has of now to compare to the US what is a healthy good amount of competition.

I'm of the mind that has of now that we are in a good healthy competition wise and are airline industry is in a good position. We will need new entrants and continued growth from the up and coming players. The DOT Does seem to beware of it and there slot distrubustion tells us so. I'm more interested to know why you don't think we have enough or a fairly healthy amount of competition in the US.Not from the amount of carriers point. Is it due to the fact we don't have 7 or 8 medium to large size regional airlines? is there other reasons? thanks
 
grbauc
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:57 am

anshabhi wrote:
Here, till now, passengers want foreign airlines. employees don't.


That is a large generalization and I'd hope that this tread has shown how complicated a issue this is. Say we were to open up domestic routes to foreign operators would it be any country that could meet FAA and DOT standards. Would the country that the airline is based in have to allow US operators to have the same ability to run domestic or continued international itineraries.
 
BN747
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:59 am

anshabhi wrote:
deteriorating customer service standards


There's the issue at hand in a nutshell.

As the US3 have grown and snowballed their way into USA's version of 1970's era Aeroflot.

Where it's become their way or the highway (take the bus)...

Foreign competition on a domestic level (locally) will light a match under the asses of the US3.

They will have no choice but to get off the couch and stop counting the stacks of cash... or get their lunch eaten by Etihad America, LufthanUSA or Brit America.
They will be forced to either join Pan Am, TWA & Eastern (the original) or fight for every single customer they now have.

With everything else going Global, why not domestic air services?

It'll really will bring back the Glory Days or flying and make traveling the awesome experience it use to be.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
YIMBY
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:29 am

LAX772LR wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Civil Reserve is an obsolete and flawed excuse. First, it is not needed for any reasonable case, as most civil airliners are not suitable for military use and the US military particularly has a huge supply of military transport planes. They could even make their own reserve from outdated airliners converted to reserve transport planes.

These statements, you clearly demonstrate that you no clue what you're talking about in this regard.


If you have any clue, it would be fair that you share that with us. In another post you are using word like "ridiculous" without giving any factual support for that. Abusive, non-informational messages do not give positive contributions to the discussion.

LAX772LR wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Second, in case of a total war the US government can equally confiscate any airliner

...via the legal mechanism that you just (erroneously) referred to as "obsolete."


Would you kindly revise your logic, to capture where the error is.

Note that any law can be changed as easily as the law that requires the national majority. We are not talking about amending the constitution. It is very typical that a change of a paragraph in one law requires changes in other laws so that the legislation is consistent. That is everyday job for the law-makers.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:15 am

YIMBY wrote:
All restrictions for ownership is just protectionism for the companies instead of citizens. There is no justified reason for artificial restrictions of ownership or cabotage, neither related to safety, security, military, environment, health or economy. It is enough to require that foreign companies operate with the same standards as the local ones.

This concerns also my country and EU.


Hindering government owned entities from other countries from entering the market is protecting the citizens' right to free enterprise. You may call it protectionism, I call it protecting our freedom.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:29 am

anshabhi wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Yes, of course it should be allowed. But, who wants the customer to win?

:checkmark: If US administration really takes such a decision, it will have to fight very heavy lobbies.


TWA772LR wrote:
US law currently allows for up to 25% foreign ownership. If any foreign airline really wanted to own a US airline, wouldn't they already own the max they can on one? The US airlines are strong enough without foreign ownership and show no signs of needing it.


Existing US airlines serve on the motto of "pay more to avoid hell". A new foreign owned airline can change that.
US airlines are strong because of no competition. That can also change.


You realize the airlines profiting best in the EU are Easyjet, Ryanair and other ultra low cost nickle and dime you airlines. Not the one giving full service people are now inwilling to pay for. Gow will that make the passenger first.
 
seat38a
Posts: 212
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Re: Should US allow foreign owned domestic airlines?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:27 am

YIMBY wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Civil Reserve is an obsolete and flawed excuse. First, it is not needed for any reasonable case, as most civil airliners are not suitable for military use and the US military particularly has a huge supply of military transport planes. They could even make their own reserve from outdated airliners converted to reserve transport planes.

These statements, you clearly demonstrate that you no clue what you're talking about in this regard.


If you have any clue, it would be fair that you share that with us. In another post you are using word like "ridiculous" without giving any factual support for that. Abusive, non-informational messages do not give positive contributions to the discussion.

LAX772LR wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Second, in case of a total war the US government can equally confiscate any airliner

...via the legal mechanism that you just (erroneously) referred to as "obsolete."


Would you kindly revise your logic, to capture where the error is.

Note that any law can be changed as easily as the law that requires the national majority. We are not talking about amending the constitution. It is very typical that a change of a paragraph in one law requires changes in other laws so that the legislation is consistent. That is everyday job for the law-makers.


Well where the hell is your "factual support" for your assertion:

Civil Reserve is an obsolete and flawed excuse. First, it is not needed for any reasonable case, as most civil airliners are not suitable for military use and the US military particularly has a huge supply of military transport planes. They could even make their own reserve from outdated airliners converted to reserve transport planes.

These statements, you clearly demonstrate that you no clue what you're talking about in this regard.[/quote]

Just because you spout crap out without factual support does not make it right and others wrong. I see nothing "abusive" calling out your BS. According to the Air Force:
A unique and significant part of the nation's air mobility resources is the Civil Reserve Air Fleet, or CRAF.
Care to backup your claim with facts????

Maybe you want to send a letter to the DOD letting them know that they've been doing it all wrong in YOUR EXPERT opinion. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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