Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
enilria wrote:DL BOS-BNA DEC 0.7>0.5
DL BOS-MKE DEC 0.9>0.5
enilria wrote:B6 BOS-BUF NOV 4>5 DEC 4>5
B6 BOS-LAS SEP 3>4 OCT 3>4 NOV 1.8>3 DEC 1.8>3
DL BOS-BNA DEC 0.7>0.5
DL BOS-MKE DEC 0.9>0.5
Cubsrule wrote:Neither of these routes moves the needle that much, but DL needs to find a way to make this kind of stuff work if it wants to be the legacy of choice in Boston. Notwithstanding all of the talk about "S-curve routes" around the time of the merger, DL struggles with large outstation p2p routes.
jetbluefan1 wrote:I think DL would be interested, although with the reductions to BNA/MKE (which started just this year), could this be an indication that DL is not completely invested in niche point to point flying out of BOS?
cvgComair wrote:Cubsrule wrote:Neither of these routes moves the needle that much, but DL needs to find a way to make this kind of stuff work if it wants to be the legacy of choice in Boston. Notwithstanding all of the talk about "S-curve routes" around the time of the merger, DL struggles with large outstation p2p routes.jetbluefan1 wrote:I think DL would be interested, although with the reductions to BNA/MKE (which started just this year), could this be an indication that DL is not completely invested in niche point to point flying out of BOS?
It's kind of misleading, basically every PTP route (yes I am aware BOS is technically a hub) in DL's network does not operate during the last two weeks of December when business travel plummets. It still operates 5x/week for the first two weeks of December. I highly doubt either route is in trouble and I expect further expansion at BOS this coming year. DL is really working on the smaller hub/PTP routes recently, BOS/CVG/RDU being the prime examples. It should be interesting to see how much they continue this.
adamh8297 wrote:One thing that confuses me on this very small (only 2 weeks) BNA/MKE cut is not flying the Thurs/Fri (12/21-22) before Xmas which should get you some high yielding VFR traffic that the typical average.
jetbluefan1 wrote:Thanks as always enilria.
Flighty wrote:lad about Toledo. They were dropped like a bad habit during the industry / automotive downturn. Not sure they ever had CLT service, but PIT/PHL.
Cubsrule wrote:enilria wrote:DL BOS-BNA DEC 0.7>0.5
DL BOS-MKE DEC 0.9>0.5
Neither of these routes moves the needle that much, but DL needs to find a way to make this kind of stuff work if it wants to be the legacy of choice in Boston. Notwithstanding all of the talk about "S-curve routes" around the time of the merger, DL struggles with large outstation p2p routes.
Cubsrule wrote:Neither of these routes moves the needle that much, but DL needs to find a way to make this kind of stuff work if it wants to be the legacy of choice in Boston.
IPFreely wrote:Cubsrule wrote:Neither of these routes moves the needle that much, but DL needs to find a way to make this kind of stuff work if it wants to be the legacy of choice in Boston.
The legacy of choice in BOS? That is, and will remain, AA. DL will be lucky to stay #3 behind B6 and AA.
aaflyer777 wrote:DL will be the legacy of choice if AA doesn't start making an effort in BOS. AA has done nothing but cut routes out of BOS while DL has been adding destinations left and right for the past few years.
IPFreely wrote:Cubsrule wrote:Neither of these routes moves the needle that much, but DL needs to find a way to make this kind of stuff work if it wants to be the legacy of choice in Boston.
The legacy of choice in BOS? That is, and will remain, AA. DL will be lucky to stay #3 behind B6 and AA.
cvgComair wrote:As Delta continues to grow, AA will only fall farther behind DL at BOS:
IPFreely wrote:cvgComair wrote:As Delta continues to grow, AA will only fall farther behind DL at BOS:
Further behind? You fanboys crack me up. AA has 150% of the number of passengers that DL does at BOS. DL has a very long way to go to just catch up to AA before you need to worry about AA falling "further behind".
cvgComair wrote:It all depends on where you fly as well. Not everyone flies to Chicago and Dallas for business/leisure, if you fly to LA/SFO/SEA often, DL would be your best legacy choice. It all depends on the traveler.
cvgComair wrote:It all depends on where you fly as well. Not everyone flies to Chicago and Dallas for business/leisure, if you fly to LA/SFO/SEA often, DL would be your best legacy choice.
flymco753 wrote:AS DTW-PDX, JFK-PDX should show up on the next OAG?
redzeppelin wrote:I'll go out on a limb and guess that SLC-GCC is a temporary casualty of gate reductions at SLC during terminal constriction...
Is GCC an at-risk market for OO?
Cubsrule wrote:Of course, and if you work with the auto industry DL helps you get to Detroit. But the whole point is that, on average, AA has a more appealing basket of hubs for the O&D passenger than does DL. DL also suffers from not having a true hub within 500 miles of BOS.
enilria wrote:F9 YOY Compare
A lot less ATL
*F9 ATL-LAS SEP 1.8>1.0 OCT 1.9>1.0
F9 ATL-MCI AUG 0.6>0.2
*F9 ATL-MCO AUG 1.0>0.4 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 1.0>0
*F9 ATL-MIA AUG 1.0>0.2 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 1.0>0
Cubsrule wrote:DL also suffers from not having a true hub within 500 miles of BOS.
clrd4t8koff wrote:Cubsrule wrote:Of course, and if you work with the auto industry DL helps you get to Detroit. But the whole point is that, on average, AA has a more appealing basket of hubs for the O&D passenger than does DL. DL also suffers from not having a true hub within 500 miles of BOS.
What do you consider JFK and/or LGA? Are those not true hubs for DL?
enilria wrote:Shows up under both codes, apparently
*AS DAL-LGA SEP 0>3 OCT 0>3 NOV 0>4 DEC 0>4
*AS PDX-DAL SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0 DEC 0>1.0
*AS SEA-DAL SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0 DEC 0>1.0
*VX DAL-LAS AUG 1.2>0.8 SEP 1.2>0 OCT 1.0>0 NOV 1.0>0 DEC 1.0>0
*VX DAL-SEA SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0 DEC 0>1.0
cvgComair wrote:IPFreely wrote:Cubsrule wrote:Neither of these routes moves the needle that much, but DL needs to find a way to make this kind of stuff work if it wants to be the legacy of choice in Boston.
The legacy of choice in BOS? That is, and will remain, AA. DL will be lucky to stay #3 behind B6 and AA.
In terms of nonstop connectivity, DL kills AA. However, it all depends on where you fly. For instance DL rules the Midwest/West Coast/Europe/Caribbean from BOS, whereas AA wins the East Coast/Northeast/Dallas/Chicago from BOS:
American Airlines: Charlotte, Chicago–O'Hare, Dallas/Fort Worth, Los Angeles, Miami, New York–JFK, Philadelphia, Phoenix–Sky Harbor, Washington–National, Seasonal: Cancún, Montego Bay, Paris–Charles de Gaulle, Providenciales, Punta Cana
American Eagle: Harrisburg, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Rochester (NY), Syracuse, Seasonal: Charlotte
Delta Air Lines: Amsterdam, Atlanta, Bermuda, Cincinnati, Detroit, Fort Myers, London–Heathrow, Los Angeles, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Montego Bay, New York–JFK, Orlando, Paris–Charles de Gaulle, Punta Cana, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Seattle/Tacoma, St. Thomas, Tampa, Seasonal: Cancún, Dublin, Fort Lauderdale, Providenciales, West Palm Beach
Delta Connection: Cincinnati, Columbus (OH), Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Nashville, New York–JFK, Raleigh/Durham, Richmond, Seasonal: Charleston (SC), Detroit, Fort Myers, Myrtle Beach, Nassau, West Palm Beach
Cubsrule wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Cubsrule wrote:Of course, and if you work with the auto industry DL helps you get to Detroit. But the whole point is that, on average, AA has a more appealing basket of hubs for the O&D passenger than does DL. DL also suffers from not having a true hub within 500 miles of BOS.
What do you consider JFK and/or LGA? Are those not true hubs for DL?
I'm thinking of a banked operation in excess of 400 flights. LGA is not an easy place to connect from BOS with the terminal change, and Delta seems to avoid selling some connections for that reason.
IPFreely wrote:cvgComair wrote:As Delta continues to grow, AA will only fall farther behind DL at BOS:
Further behind? You fanboys crack me up. AA has 150% of the number of passengers that DL does at BOS. DL has a very long way to go to just catch up to AA before you need to worry about AA falling "further behind".
commavia wrote:The bottom line, again, is that both AA and Delta are very large in BOS and will remain so - it's an incredibly important market for both airlines' networks.
tphuang wrote:cvgComair wrote:IPFreely wrote:
The legacy of choice in BOS? That is, and will remain, AA. DL will be lucky to stay #3 behind B6 and AA.
In terms of nonstop connectivity, DL kills AA. However, it all depends on where you fly. For instance DL rules the Midwest/West Coast/Europe/Caribbean from BOS, whereas AA wins the East Coast/Northeast/Dallas/Chicago from BOS:
American Airlines: Charlotte, Chicago–O'Hare, Dallas/Fort Worth, Los Angeles, Miami, New York–JFK, Philadelphia, Phoenix–Sky Harbor, Washington–National, Seasonal: Cancún, Montego Bay, Paris–Charles de Gaulle, Providenciales, Punta Cana
American Eagle: Harrisburg, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Rochester (NY), Syracuse, Seasonal: Charlotte
Delta Air Lines: Amsterdam, Atlanta, Bermuda, Cincinnati, Detroit, Fort Myers, London–Heathrow, Los Angeles, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Montego Bay, New York–JFK, Orlando, Paris–Charles de Gaulle, Punta Cana, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Seattle/Tacoma, St. Thomas, Tampa, Seasonal: Cancún, Dublin, Fort Lauderdale, Providenciales, West Palm Beach
Delta Connection: Cincinnati, Columbus (OH), Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Nashville, New York–JFK, Raleigh/Durham, Richmond, Seasonal: Charleston (SC), Detroit, Fort Myers, Myrtle Beach, Nassau, West Palm Beach
by domestic numbers:
https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?pn=1
AA at 22% and delta at 12% (delta maybe a little higher here since the number only has mainline figures)
by overall numbers
https://www.massport.com/media/415466/M ... -Final.pdf
AA at 19.4% and delta at 11.5%
It seems like DL does offer more service to Europe, but you could argue AA takes care of that with its BA relationship and the connections at PHL.
Domestically looking at all the major markets
AA wins on frequency to DCA, ORD, LAX, DFW, MIA, PHL, PIT, CLT and PHX
DL wins on frequency to ATL, DTW, MSP, CVG and RDU
If you count on AA's partnership with AS, it also wins on SFO and SEA.
what corporate contract is based on flights to myrtle beach, bermuda or tampa?
Cubsrule wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Cubsrule wrote:Of course, and if you work with the auto industry DL helps you get to Detroit. But the whole point is that, on average, AA has a more appealing basket of hubs for the O&D passenger than does DL. DL also suffers from not having a true hub within 500 miles of BOS.
What do you consider JFK and/or LGA? Are those not true hubs for DL?
I'm thinking of a banked operation in excess of 400 flights. LGA is not an easy place to connect from BOS with the terminal change, and Delta seems to avoid selling some connections for that reason.
steex wrote:enilria wrote:Shows up under both codes, apparently
*AS DAL-LGA SEP 0>3 OCT 0>3 NOV 0>4 DEC 0>4
*AS PDX-DAL SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0 DEC 0>1.0
*AS SEA-DAL SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0 DEC 0>1.0
*VX DAL-LAS AUG 1.2>0.8 SEP 1.2>0 OCT 1.0>0 NOV 1.0>0 DEC 1.0>0
*VX DAL-SEA SEP 0>1.0 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0 DEC 0>1.0
They show up only under the primary marketing code at this point, it just so happens that DAL-SEA has one of each (1x AS E75 and 1x VX 320) for two daily. A similar thing will happen with DCA since they are planning a staggered transition from VX flying to E75s on the route.
FWAERJ wrote:TOL-CLT is the ideal route for AA for a very simple reason: DL isn't in TOL per se. They serve Toledo via DTW. And as a result, there's no ATL service and TOL hasn't seen southern hub access from the Great Recession until now. And ORD is far too out of the way from the south for many to consider TOL, while CLT isn't.
Let's not forget that AA has a very high yield on TOL-ORD. Because AA is the only legacy in TOL, they print money there - and with CLT, they'll print even more.
PHL wouldn't have been as good of a hub as CLT for TOL. AA tried FWA-PHL with big corporate ties on both ends and ended up with half-full planes.
Overall, this is a logical add for AA. Question: what planes will be used? I assume the CR2 or ER4.
rajincajun01 wrote:Glad to see SHV score another route. That being said, tickets are over $1000 RT. At those levels, it won't last.
alfa164 wrote:IPFreely wrote:cvgComair wrote:As Delta continues to grow, AA will only fall farther behind DL at BOS:
Further behind? You fanboys crack me up. AA has 150% of the number of passengers that DL does at BOS. DL has a very long way to go to just catch up to AA before you need to worry about AA falling "further behind".
And you, the AS whiner, crack me up. I am not a DL fanboy - I still refuse to fly them - but after being 2 hours late and then 4 hours late on my last AS flights, I don't think you have much room to whine about other airlines..
alfa164 wrote:commavia wrote:The bottom line, again, is that both AA and Delta are very large in BOS and will remain so - it's an incredibly important market for both airlines' networks.
Thank you! The various fanboys and/or whiners have really made a mockery of this once-informative site. Too many well-spoken posters have disappeared - probably in disgust. Thanks for sticking around.
Cubsrule wrote:rajincajun01 wrote:Glad to see SHV score another route. That being said, tickets are over $1000 RT. At those levels, it won't last.
??? The route has almost zero to do with CLT-SHV O&D.
FWAERJ wrote:TOL-CLT is the ideal route for AA for a very simple reason: DL isn't in TOL per se. They serve Toledo via DTW. And as a result, there's no ATL service and TOL hasn't seen southern hub access from the Great Recession until now. And ORD is far too out of the way from the south for many to consider TOL, while CLT isn't.
Let's not forget that AA has a very high yield on TOL-ORD. Because AA is the only legacy in TOL, they print money there - and with CLT, they'll print even more.
PHL wouldn't have been as good of a hub as CLT for TOL. AA tried FWA-PHL with big corporate ties on both ends and ended up with half-full planes.
Overall, this is a logical add for AA. Question: what planes will be used? I assume the CR2 or ER4.
phluser wrote:enilria wrote:F9 YOY Compare
A lot less ATL
*F9 ATL-LAS SEP 1.8>1.0 OCT 1.9>1.0
F9 ATL-MCI AUG 0.6>0.2
*F9 ATL-MCO AUG 1.0>0.4 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 1.0>0
*F9 ATL-MIA AUG 1.0>0.2 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 1.0>0
If F9 can't make Miami-Dade Co. ULCC POS work, perhaps it should consolidate back at FLL, or perhaps be bigger at PBI. As far as MCO-ATL goes, F9 has been running the flight at 5:35am. It seemed more like fleet utilization/aircraft re-positioning done to the extreme, while serving that market was secondary.
ooslc wrote:redzeppelin wrote:I'll go out on a limb and guess that SLC-GCC is a temporary casualty of gate reductions at SLC during terminal constriction...
Is GCC an at-risk market for OO?
Looks like they're taking the plane from GCC and adding another flight to LWS. Must be a better performer. When I worked the gates in SLC, LWS seems to always be sold out.
Rdh3e wrote:ooslc wrote:redzeppelin wrote:I'll go out on a limb and guess that SLC-GCC is a temporary casualty of gate reductions at SLC during terminal constriction...
Is GCC an at-risk market for OO?
Looks like they're taking the plane from GCC and adding another flight to LWS. Must be a better performer. When I worked the gates in SLC, LWS seems to always be sold out.
Last week's OAG contained a third daily DEN-GCC. I'm sure they are related.
ASFlyer wrote:alfa164 wrote:IPFreely wrote:Further behind? You fanboys crack me up. AA has 150% of the number of passengers that DL does at BOS. DL has a very long way to go to just catch up to AA before you need to worry about AA falling "further behind".
And you, the AS whiner, crack me up. I am not a DL fanboy - I still refuse to fly them - but after being 2 hours late and then 4 hours late on my last AS flights, I don't think you have much room to whine about other airlines..
No, actually, you are a DL fanboy. You came to another thread and blasted me for being an AS fanboy and ruining the integrity of this site. Meanwhile, you pop up on any thread where someone has anything to say about DL, whining about the fanboys that attack DL all the time. Forget the fact that there are just as many DL fanboys here crowing about how great DL is. Why are you only singling out someone who's critical of DL? Why is it that you only ever single out someone that speaks critically of DL? Forget the fact that the thread in which you lambasted me was started by one of the biggest DL fanboys on this entire site, only to poke at United Airlines. You're a fanboy alright. The DL fanboys here far outnumber any other airline's.alfa164 wrote:commavia wrote:The bottom line, again, is that both AA and Delta are very large in BOS and will remain so - it's an incredibly important market for both airlines' networks.
Thank you! The various fanboys and/or whiners have really made a mockery of this once-informative site. Too many well-spoken posters have disappeared - probably in disgust. Thanks for sticking around.
And you're complicit in making this site a mockery just like every other fanboy. Until you stop jumping in to protect DL's honor at every turn then you're no better than anyone else.
ASFlyer wrote:No, actually, you are a DL fanboy. You came to another thread and blasted me for being an AS fanboy and ruining the integrity of this site. Meanwhile, you pop up on any thread where someone has anything to say about DL, whining about the fanboys that attack DL all the time. Forget the fact that there are just as many DL fanboys here crowing about how great DL is. Why are you only singling out someone who's critical of DL? Why is it that you only ever single out someone that speaks critically of DL? Forget the fact that the thread in which you lambasted me was started by one of the biggest DL fanboys on this entire site, only to poke at United Airlines. You're a fanboy alright. The DL fanboys here far outnumber any other airline's.
And you're complicit in making this site a mockery just like every other fanboy. Until you stop jumping in to protect DL's honor at every turn then you're no better than anyone else.
tphuang wrote:phluser wrote:enilria wrote:F9 YOY Compare
A lot less ATL
*F9 ATL-LAS SEP 1.8>1.0 OCT 1.9>1.0
F9 ATL-MCI AUG 0.6>0.2
*F9 ATL-MCO AUG 1.0>0.4 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 1.0>0
*F9 ATL-MIA AUG 1.0>0.2 SEP 1.0>0 OCT 1.0>0
If F9 can't make Miami-Dade Co. ULCC POS work, perhaps it should consolidate back at FLL, or perhaps be bigger at PBI. As far as MCO-ATL goes, F9 has been running the flight at 5:35am. It seemed more like fleet utilization/aircraft re-positioning done to the extreme, while serving that market was secondary.
I thought I read a few days ago that F9 has added 10% in capacity this year when it was planning for IPO, but it looks like they have either stood still or cutting back a little bit over all year over year for the fall season.
Cubsrule wrote:rajincajun01 wrote:Glad to see SHV score another route. That being said, tickets are over $1000 RT. At those levels, it won't last.
??? The route has almost zero to do with CLT-SHV O&D.
Rdh3e wrote:Last week's OAG contained a third daily DEN-GCC. I'm sure they are related.
11725Flyer wrote:This thread is the gold standard of a.net.
lakeeffect wrote:I don't think the yoy comparison for F9 in this thread is accurate. For example at CLE, F9 is flying SAN, PDX, SEA, IAH, MSP, and CLT this fall. Not one of these routes was flown last fall, but it's not showing up as a yoy change. This is a pretty substantial capacity bump. I'd imagine this is true for other markets as well.
enilria wrote:Cubsrule wrote:rajincajun01 wrote:Glad to see SHV score another route. That being said, tickets are over $1000 RT. At those levels, it won't last.
??? The route has almost zero to do with CLT-SHV O&D.
Because there isn't any O&D, although routes with zero local traffic tend to be very hard to make work, so it is a factor.
enilria wrote:DL DTW-ITH NOV 1.9>3 DEC 1.8>3
ASFlyer wrote:FWAERJ wrote:TOL-CLT is the ideal route for AA for a very simple reason: DL isn't in TOL per se. They serve Toledo via DTW. And as a result, there's no ATL service and TOL hasn't seen southern hub access from the Great Recession until now. And ORD is far too out of the way from the south for many to consider TOL, while CLT isn't.
Let's not forget that AA has a very high yield on TOL-ORD. Because AA is the only legacy in TOL, they print money there - and with CLT, they'll print even more.
PHL wouldn't have been as good of a hub as CLT for TOL. AA tried FWA-PHL with big corporate ties on both ends and ended up with half-full planes.
Overall, this is a logical add for AA. Question: what planes will be used? I assume the CR2 or ER4.
Looks like PSA operated, using the CR2. Nice add for TOL. Maybe, as the economy improves there, other airlines will slowly creep back in at some level.
FWAERJ wrote:There was a rumor that UA might re-enter TOL-ORD and give AA some competition, and I wouldn't be surprised if it happens given the battle for ORD between UA and AA.