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JetBuddy
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SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:31 pm

In an interview with USA Today, SAS' Sales and Marketing Director Eivind Roald talks about the future plans of SAS, including some interesting information about their long haul fleet strategy. SAS is considering buying Airbus A321LR or Boeing 737 MAX for US East Coast - Europe routes.

From the article:

"Looking further into the future, Roald says SAS is considering buying new Boeing and Airbus narrow-body jets that would allow it to add service on medium-demand routes between Scandinavia and the U.S. East Coast.

SAS is looking at “a new order for a short-haul fleet” and is “considering the Boeing MAX or the 321 long range from Airbus," Roald says. "What we see as a potential is to establish more direct flights from Scandinavia to the East Coast of the U.S. and also from Scandinavia to … India (and) Iran.”

Those aircraft could come into SAS’ fleet “around 2020,” depending on when an order decision is made.

“It’s quite promising the new type of aircraft that both we see with the MAX and the 321,” Roald says."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 100272940/

(Please delete if already posted).
 
Bostrom
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:47 pm

Thank you for sharing that article. Sounds like SAS really has expansion plans.
 
uconn99
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:08 am

I flew CPH-IAD on their A330 in business class and was very impressed with SAS this past March. The connecting flight I flew AMS-CPH the night before, and although there was a delay of around 2 hours with no communication from the gate agents, I was also very impressed with the service in the air on the A320. Received a full meal and drink service for the 1 hour flight!
 
AA737-823
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:25 am

To me, with the 320neo already in their fleet, this is Airbus' order to lose.
Though I'd love to see some MAX love at SAS!
 
nomorerjs
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:36 am

Going after WOW and Norweigan!

Just a matter of time before the usual suspects claim to be next in line for service.
 
N415XJ
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:18 am

Sorry, I'm not really informed of the capabilities of the -9 MAX and A321NEOLR. Can they comfortably make it from Scandinavia-the US, or would there be weight restrictions/possible tech stops involved? As far as I'm aware, they are being talked about for flights between the US and the British Isles, and places in western Europe like Spain/Portugal and Benelux.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:25 am

Depending on load factors, it might make sense to have OSL served with an A321neoLR to the East Coast of the USA (and BOS-CPH). Such a plane could easily replace the TATL 737-700 flying between these two cities. The A321neoLR is positioned as a Boeing 757 replacement.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:49 am

SAS is copying Norwegian again ...;-) :-)
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:16 am

Mortyman wrote:
SAS is copying Norwegian again ...;-) :-)


A good company will always adapt to the market. From the article it's pretty clear Norwegian and other LCCs as WOW Air have cut into their TATL market - still SAS is expanding their international network more than ever through their 70 year old history. Eivind Roald also states that they're positioning themselves differently as the full service legacy carrier that they are, opening new lounges etc. They're also going for the frequent flyers, people who fly TATL 5 or more times yearly. Those are a huge part of their revenue. Being a member (founding partner) of Star Alliance with great network connections on both sides of the Atlantic is something frequent flyers appreciate. Norwegian caters more to the leisure market. I think there's both room - and a need for both airlines.

Roald also mentions that SAS does not plan to fly from other European cities to the US, it seems like they're sticking to Scandinavia for now - even though they're opening crew bases in other European cities to stay competitive.

Regarding the A321LR capabilities, it seems like Norwegian, TAP and now probably SAS have faith in Airbus being able to achieve the range targets.
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:05 am

JetBuddy wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
SAS is copying Norwegian again ...;-) :-)


A good company will always adapt to the market. From the article it's pretty clear Norwegian and other LCCs as WOW Air have cut into their TATL market - still SAS is expanding their international network more than ever through their 70 year old history. Eivind Roald also states that they're positioning themselves differently as the full service legacy carrier that they are, opening new lounges etc. They're also going for the frequent flyers, people who fly TATL 5 or more times yearly. Those are a huge part of their revenue. Being a member (founding partner) of Star Alliance with great network connections on both sides of the Atlantic is something frequent flyers appreciate. Norwegian caters more to the leisure market. I think there's both room - and a need for both airlines.

Roald also mentions that SAS does not plan to fly from other European cities to the US, it seems like they're sticking to Scandinavia for now - even though they're opening crew bases in other European cities to stay competitive.

Regarding the A321LR capabilities, it seems like Norwegian, TAP and now probably SAS have faith in Airbus being able to achieve the range targets.


Norwegian gets more and more to business passengers too .
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:13 am

Mortyman wrote:

Norwegian gets more and more to business passengers too .


Yes, that's true. I'd love to see some statistics of how many travellers on each airline are business vs leisure though. And I wonder if the business travellers on Norwegian are mostly intra-Europe, domestic or long haul? My guess is that it's not the long haul travellers.
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:01 am

There's an inherent risk for a business passenger, who presumably has a pressing need to be at a certain place at a certain time, choosing to fly Norwegian on intercontinental services, in that Norwegian will not rebook you on another carrier if things go bad. You'll be stuck at your point of origin until either a replacement aircraft has been found, a chartered aircraft can be brought in, or the bad thing has been resolved.

Cheapskate companies might find it a risk worth taking, at least until they've had their first taste of the consequences.

There's also the not insignificant fact, that Norwegian's premium class does not offer the level of comfort found in the businesses class cabin of other, legacy, carriers. That is of course reflected in the lower prices, but few - if any - frequent traveller would chose the Norwegian level of comfort over a competitor offering a lie-flat product.
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 am

SAS of course want competing offers från Airbus and Boeing to push down prices. Thats why he says all this. But you can be sure that SAS stays with Airbus now that A320neo is entering the fleet. SAS is desperately trying to get commonality in its fleet now.
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:30 am

B777LRF wrote:
There's an inherent risk for a business passenger, who presumably has a pressing need to be at a certain place at a certain time, choosing to fly Norwegian on intercontinental services, in that Norwegian will not rebook you on another carrier if things go bad.


But wouldn't as a likely EU flight (currently Norwegian all have EU on one end of their intercontinental?) just pick up the EU right to a refund and organise it yourself (perhaps with your travel insurance picking up the cost)? It may cost you more, but it would have to happen often to not still save money.
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:26 am

JibberJim wrote:
But wouldn't as a likely EU flight (currently Norwegian all have EU on one end of their intercontinental?) just pick up the EU right to a refund and organise it yourself (perhaps with your travel insurance picking up the cost)? It may cost you more, but it would have to happen often to not still save money.


Sure, you can apply for compensation in accordance with EU261, if you're delayed for more than 2 hours. But that compensation will come weeks, if not months, after you've returned home and will do nothing to save your business appointment. Yes, you can go and book yourself a replacement trip, but Norwegian will not compensate you for that.

There is a reason airlines can successfully charge multiple thousands of dollars for a business class fare, which indicates that saving money is less of a priority than getting to your destination on time and in comfort. With Norwegian there is no guarantee you'll get the former, and whilst any airline will experience IROPS from time to time, legacy carriers have interline agreements that will see you rebooked on an alternative carrier when the smelly stuff hits the spinning bits. No such thing with Norwegian.
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:34 am

.
As said they are operating CPH-BOS already. SK927 & SK928. 3200NM, apparently that works well.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:04 am

SAS has much more 737's than A320 series in service.

Over the last few years 737 orders dried up.

It would be a coup for Boeing t get back here with a 737-9LR (incorporating 737-10 enhancements)

Airbus seems to have the edge at this moment. First NEO's were put in SAS operation in 2016.

Image
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:19 am

JetBuddy wrote:
Regarding the A321LR capabilities, it seems like Norwegian, TAP and now probably SAS have faith in Airbus being able to achieve the range targets.


Yes, I agree. Norwegian is currently selling tickets for transatlantic flights that will be operated by 737-8 MAX starting this summer. They will have 189 passengers onboard. The longest flight will be from SWF to BGO, a great-circle distance of exactly 3000 nm. Against the headwind (eastbound) the scheduled flight time is 7 hours and 45 minutes. This flight will only be operated during the summer months, probably to avoid the strong winter headwinds. I think it is yet to be seen how often the 737 will need a fuel stop at Nova Scotia on this leg.

At the press conference, when Norwegian ordered the A321LR, the CEO said that Boeing didn't have any aircraft that could compete with the A321LR. This aircraft were even more fuel efficient than the 787 per seat, and additionally we don't have to fill all those seats, he said. The LR would open up new routes that could not be served with the MAX, do to the lack of range. As an example he mentioned connecting the Scandinavian capitals to Washington/Baltimore and to India. ARN to BWI is almost 3600 nm great-circle distance, or approximately 9 hours of scheduled flight time eastbound (against the headwinds). Norwegian will have 220 seats onboard the A321LR.

The A321LR seems like an excellent choice for SAS. If real world performance of the A321LR is 3600 nm with 220 passengers onboard eastbound over the Atlantic, then the A321LR could fly from the Scandinavian capitals to New Deli, Mumbai, Islamabad, Tehran, all of the Middle East, all of Canada, all of Africa that is north of Equator, and the US cities Chicago, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, Washington, New York, Boston, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Cincinnati will all be within range.
 
Bostrom
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:55 am

reidar76 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Regarding the A321LR capabilities, it seems like Norwegian, TAP and now probably SAS have faith in Airbus being able to achieve the range targets.

The A321LR seems like an excellent choice for SAS. If real world performance of the A321LR is 3600 nm with 220 passengers onboard eastbound over the Atlantic, then the A321LR could fly from the Scandinavian capitals to New Deli, Mumbai, Islamabad, Tehran, all of the Middle East, all of Canada, all of Africa that is north of Equator, and the US cities Chicago, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, Washington, New York, Boston, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Cincinnati will all be within range.


It would also make long haul routes from other airports, like GOT, SVG and BGO, possible.
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:39 pm

B777LRF wrote:
There's an inherent risk for a business passenger, who presumably has a pressing need to be at a certain place at a certain time, choosing to fly Norwegian on intercontinental services, in that Norwegian will not rebook you on another carrier if things go bad. You'll be stuck at your point of origin until either a replacement aircraft has been found, a chartered aircraft can be brought in, or the bad thing has been resolved.

Cheapskate companies might find it a risk worth taking, at least until they've had their first taste of the consequences.

There's also the not insignificant fact, that Norwegian's premium class does not offer the level of comfort found in the businesses class cabin of other, legacy, carriers. That is of course reflected in the lower prices, but few - if any - frequent traveller would chose the Norwegian level of comfort over a competitor offering a lie-flat product.

Very good post however, the vast majority of business travelers do not buy premium class. Those who are lucky enough to travel in premium class are either executives or managed to get an upgrade through FF perks. I work for a very large financial company based in Boston and a few years ago they increased the cut-off from 6 to 7 hours which means, anything shorter then 7 hours it's economy class only for non executive level travel. From BOS, that means a lot of TATL routes are Y only for us. We are also highly encouraged to travel on the cheapest fare possible and if we don't we have to submit a valid justification. This is a company with over 2 Trillion $$$ of assents under management, so not a small company by any means. It's a good thing that most of our business travel is to India :)
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:41 pm

It's about time to see SK take care of some proper long-haul expansion.... And the 321LR would be an excellent asset to do so..
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:42 pm

keesje wrote:
.
As said they are operating CPH-BOS already. SK927 & SK928. 3200NM, apparently that works well.

Even with a tiny 737, their LF is terrible. They just can't compete with DY.
 
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AeroTyke
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:00 pm

keesje wrote:
.
As said they are operating CPH-BOS already. SK927 & SK928. 3200NM, apparently that works well.

Image


It's worth noting that aircraft in question is not a 737-700, it's a BBJ and has the belly tank mod.
 
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Clipper101
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:48 pm

We had a discussion on this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1343343

about SAS converting some of its 30 A320neos's to A321LR's for expanding its route network. Now they are talking about B737MAX, this is not clear !
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:59 pm

keesje wrote:
Over the last few years 737 orders dried up.

I didn't realize getting 2212 net orders in the past three years, and only 57 net orders fewer than the A320 last year (basically the difference of Airbus getting the IR order firmed and Boeing not), and so far having 18.5x as many net orders as the A320 this year, meant that 737 orders have dried up.
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:03 pm

Polot wrote:
keesje wrote:
Over the last few years 737 orders dried up.

I didn't realize getting 2212 net orders in the past three years, and only 57 net orders fewer than the A320 last year (basically the difference of Airbus getting the IR order firmed and Boeing not), and so far having 18.5x as many net orders as the A320 this year, meant that 737 orders have dried up.



I think keesje's comment was in relation to the SAS fleet
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:12 pm

Mortyman wrote:
I think keesje's comment was in relation to the SAS fleet

SAS has only ordered ~9 737 from Boeing since 2000 (including 2000), the last ordered being placed in August 2008 (although they have leased some from GECAS since then). I'm not saying Boeing isn't/wouldn't work hard for SAS's business but I don't think SAS's 737 order drought has become a sudden new concern for the Boeing sales team.
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:23 pm

ARN to BWI is almost 3600 nm great-circle distance, or approximately 9 hours of scheduled flight time eastbound (against the headwinds).

The jetstream goes East. The flight time is longer Westbound.
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:37 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
ARN to BWI is almost 3600 nm great-circle distance, or approximately 9 hours of scheduled flight time eastbound (against the headwinds).

The jetstream goes East. The flight time is longer Westbound.



WESTBOUND is against the headwinds. Eastbound would be quite a bit shorter, on average with a tailwind.
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CHI787ORD
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:53 pm

I wonder if they will start OSL-ORD with the A321LR or Boeing 737 MAX
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:09 pm

Hmm, sounds like a good move for the airline, but not sure I would be happy about going transatlantic on a narrow body.
 
klm617
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:09 pm

airbazar wrote:
keesje wrote:
.
As said they are operating CPH-BOS already. SK927 & SK928. 3200NM, apparently that works well.

Even with a tiny 737, their LF is terrible. They just can't compete with DY.



They should move that route to DTW they can have the market to themselves and probably get higher yields plus cheaper landing fees.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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keesje
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:16 pm

Polot wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
I think keesje's comment was in relation to the SAS fleet

SAS has only ordered ~9 737 from Boeing since 2000 (including 2000), the last ordered being placed in August 2008 (although they have leased some from GECAS since then). I'm not saying Boeing isn't/wouldn't work hard for SAS's business but I don't think SAS's 737 order drought has become a sudden new concern for the Boeing sales team.


As you know but smartly leave out, SAS has 78 737 NG's and 24 A320 CEO's.
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Bostrom
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:58 pm

keesje wrote:
Polot wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
I think keesje's comment was in relation to the SAS fleet

SAS has only ordered ~9 737 from Boeing since 2000 (including 2000), the last ordered being placed in August 2008 (although they have leased some from GECAS since then). I'm not saying Boeing isn't/wouldn't work hard for SAS's business but I don't think SAS's 737 order drought has become a sudden new concern for the Boeing sales team.


As you know but smartly leave out, SAS has 78 737 NG's and 24 A320 CEO's.


But, 20 of those 737s are -600s that will be retired in a few years. So when the neos are delivered the narrowbody fleet will be 58 737s and 54 A320s (plus wetleased ATRs and CRJs).
 
Bostrom
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:09 pm

klm617 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
keesje wrote:
.
As said they are operating CPH-BOS already. SK927 & SK928. 3200NM, apparently that works well.

Even with a tiny 737, their LF is terrible. They just can't compete with DY.



They should move that route to DTW they can have the market to themselves and probably get higher yields plus cheaper landing fees.


DTW is not a hub for any Star Alliance airline, is there enough demand for trips to Detroit from Scandinavia and v.v.? Detroit has a reputation as a city in decline.
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:10 pm

I think SAS should go for the B737 MAX 9 for their European medium-haul network including Canary islands. Then they can have 189 seats (just like DY/D8 -800/MAX 8) but with enough room for their famous/infamous galley complexes, crew storage, coat storage and SAS Plus Y seats with larger pitch. The MAX 9 will be a few tonnes lighter than the A321LR and more economical on 3-6-hour flights.

The A321LR will be better suited for 6hrs+ flights as it has more of everything.
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Someone83
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:16 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
....... but with enough room for their famous/infamous galley complexes, crew storage, coat storage and SAS Plus Y seats with larger pitch. .


The "new" SAS is more about using standard off the shelf solutions. Just like with their new A320neo
 
YIMBY
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:53 pm

Would be a very expected move, assuming the engine performance is good enough (some contradictory rumours around).

IMO they should replace all their mid/long-haul fleet with 321LR's, with some 150 seats in long-haul configuration.
That allows flexible operations from many Scandinavian cities and more frequency for the most popular routes.
The few longer haul destinations could be transferred to JV partners.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:32 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
I think SAS should go for the B737 MAX 9 for their European medium-haul network including Canary islands. Then they can have 189 seats (just like DY/D8 -800/MAX 8) but with enough room for their famous/infamous galley complexes, crew storage, coat storage and SAS Plus Y seats with larger pitch. The MAX 9 will be a few tonnes lighter than the A321LR and more economical on 3-6-hour flights.

The A321LR will be better suited for 6hrs+ flights as it has more of everything.


Do we know the A321neo will be less efficient on shorter sectors? I mean 6hrs and below is where virtually every A321neo (that aren't LRs) will operate. I'm not sure why the MAX9 would make more sense than the A321neo for their European network if commonality isn't a factor.
 
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:52 pm

Hey guys,
I agree that this order is Airbus all the way...
Makes sense for SAS to fly the A321LR across the Atlantic and to the other cities mentioned.
However, when SAS placed their first 737NG orders way back whenever, there was surprise.... Maybe history will repeat itself.
Wonder if the MoM is being considered by SAS for these potential routes, or is possibly too big?
Cheers,
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nomorerjs
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:07 am

Didn't take long to "move xxx (BOS) to DTW." If there was a business case for it I'm sure SK would.

Is there a route DTW cannot support? I wish DTE the best, but OSL-DTW on SK when Star Hub ORD is not served (a DY opportunity).

Just my 2 cents.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:34 am

reidar76 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Regarding the A321LR capabilities, it seems like Norwegian, TAP and now probably SAS have faith in Airbus being able to achieve the range targets.


Yes, I agree. Norwegian is currently selling tickets for transatlantic flights that will be operated by 737-8 MAX starting this summer. They will have 189 passengers onboard. The longest flight will be from SWF to BGO, a great-circle distance of exactly 3000 nm. Against the headwind (eastbound) the scheduled flight time is 7 hours and 45 minutes. This flight will only be operated during the summer months, probably to avoid the strong winter headwinds. I think it is yet to be seen how often the 737 will need a fuel stop at Nova Scotia on this leg.

At the press conference, when Norwegian ordered the A321LR, the CEO said that Boeing didn't have any aircraft that could compete with the A321LR. This aircraft were even more fuel efficient than the 787 per seat, and additionally we don't have to fill all those seats, he said. The LR would open up new routes that could not be served with the MAX, do to the lack of range. As an example he mentioned connecting the Scandinavian capitals to Washington/Baltimore and to India. ARN to BWI is almost 3600 nm great-circle distance, or approximately 9 hours of scheduled flight time eastbound (against the headwinds). Norwegian will have 220 seats onboard the A321LR.

The A321LR seems like an excellent choice for SAS. If real world performance of the A321LR is 3600 nm with 220 passengers onboard eastbound over the Atlantic, then the A321LR could fly from the Scandinavian capitals to New Deli, Mumbai, Islamabad, Tehran, all of the Middle East, all of Canada, all of Africa that is north of Equator, and the US cities Chicago, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, Washington, New York, Boston, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Cincinnati will all be within range.


I think it is safe it say that SAS will not to fly to Cleveland, Columbus, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, or Pittsburgh, at least for the time being because they are most likely out of range for the MAX, especially in winter. But like some others have mentioned I like adding a A321LR on flights to Boston and Philadelphia, also I think if it had the range I think the MAX would be a good add on flights to Minneapolis. But that is just my opinion.
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:19 am

Midwestindy wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Regarding the A321LR capabilities, it seems like Norwegian, TAP and now probably SAS have faith in Airbus being able to achieve the range targets.


Yes, I agree. Norwegian is currently selling tickets for transatlantic flights that will be operated by 737-8 MAX starting this summer. They will have 189 passengers onboard. The longest flight will be from SWF to BGO, a great-circle distance of exactly 3000 nm. Against the headwind (eastbound) the scheduled flight time is 7 hours and 45 minutes. This flight will only be operated during the summer months, probably to avoid the strong winter headwinds. I think it is yet to be seen how often the 737 will need a fuel stop at Nova Scotia on this leg.

At the press conference, when Norwegian ordered the A321LR, the CEO said that Boeing didn't have any aircraft that could compete with the A321LR. This aircraft were even more fuel efficient than the 787 per seat, and additionally we don't have to fill all those seats, he said. The LR would open up new routes that could not be served with the MAX, do to the lack of range. As an example he mentioned connecting the Scandinavian capitals to Washington/Baltimore and to India. ARN to BWI is almost 3600 nm great-circle distance, or approximately 9 hours of scheduled flight time eastbound (against the headwinds). Norwegian will have 220 seats onboard the A321LR.

The A321LR seems like an excellent choice for SAS. If real world performance of the A321LR is 3600 nm with 220 passengers onboard eastbound over the Atlantic, then the A321LR could fly from the Scandinavian capitals to New Deli, Mumbai, Islamabad, Tehran, all of the Middle East, all of Canada, all of Africa that is north of Equator, and the US cities Chicago, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, Washington, New York, Boston, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Cincinnati will all be within range.


I think it is safe it say that SAS will not to fly to Cleveland, Columbus, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, or Pittsburgh, at least for the time being because they are most likely out of range for the MAX, especially in winter. But like some others have mentioned I like adding a A321LR on flights to Boston and Philadelphia, also I think if it had the range I think the MAX would be a good add on flights to Minneapolis. But that is just my opinion.


Yes, I think so too. These markets are to small for SAS and flights to Scandinavia.

Potentially, we could see Norwegian flying the A321LR to these cities from London Gatwick. As far as I know, none of these cities have nonstop connections to London on any carrier. There could be a market there.

By the way, in my quoted post above, I mixed up east/west. It is of course westbound when flying from EU to the US, and in doing so we are flying against the headwinds. :-)
 
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keesje
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:00 am

Mainline A321LR will probably end up with 160-180 seats in 2-3 classes, reducing payload by 4-5t, improving range.

Image
3800NM ranges from ARN and OSL

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
planespotter20
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:48 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
Hmm, sounds like a good move for the airline, but not sure I would be happy about going transatlantic on a narrow body.


One of the most comfortable TATL flights was from JFK-PSA with a 757-200. The cabin was fresh, had mood lighting, and was just in general a great flight. Plus you don't have to worry about being stuck in the middle seat section which I personally hate.

Narrowbody TATL is not bad at all
 
planespotter20
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:53 am

keesje wrote:
Polot wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
I think keesje's comment was in relation to the SAS fleet

SAS has only ordered ~9 737 from Boeing since 2000 (including 2000), the last ordered being placed in August 2008 (although they have leased some from GECAS since then). I'm not saying Boeing isn't/wouldn't work hard for SAS's business but I don't think SAS's 737 order drought has become a sudden new concern for the Boeing sales team.


As you know but smartly leave out, SAS has 78 737 NG's and 24 A320 CEO's.


But, SAS is taking A320neo's, and not 737s.
 
klm617
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:09 pm

Bostrom wrote:
klm617 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Even with a tiny 737, their LF is terrible. They just can't compete with DY.



They should move that route to DTW they can have the market to themselves and probably get higher yields plus cheaper landing fees.


DTW is not a hub for any Star Alliance airline, is there enough demand for trips to Detroit from Scandinavia and v.v.? Detroit has a reputation as a city in decline.


Neither is Boston a Star Alliance hub. That is where the perception of Detroit is wrong right now it is in the top 10 fastest growing regions economically in the United States. There is a lot going on in the Detroit area for those who care to do the research rather than just believing what they hear. SK should be able to fill a 737 3 or 4 times a week on a DTW-CPH route. Back in the day Northwest ran a daily 747 in the summer with one stop DTW-JFK-CPH service so there is demand.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:13 pm

nomorerjs wrote:
Didn't take long to "move xxx (BOS) to DTW." If there was a business case for it I'm sure SK would.

Is there a route DTW cannot support? I wish DTE the best, but OSL-DTW on SK when Star Hub ORD is not served (a DY opportunity).

Just my 2 cents.



Not DTW-OSL but DTW-CPH and yes there is a market with onward connections also figured into the mix.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Andy33
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:26 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
Hmm, sounds like a good move for the airline, but not sure I would be happy about going transatlantic on a narrow body.


And yet quite large numbers of people already fly transatlantic on 757s, and have done for years. In fact United send 757s to lots of destinations across the western fringe of Western Europe.
 
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Polot
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Re: SAS considering A321LR or 737MAX for US-Europe

Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:53 pm

Andy33 wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Hmm, sounds like a good move for the airline, but not sure I would be happy about going transatlantic on a narrow body.


And yet quite large numbers of people already fly transatlantic on 757s, and have done for years. In fact United send 757s to lots of destinations across the western fringe of Western Europe.

There are going to be some people on A.net (not necessarily saying AirPacific747) who after years of bashing the TATL 757s and particularly favoring Airbus/the A321[LR are going to be having an existential crisis when they learn A321LR TATLs will not be some revolution in pax experience.

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