mercure1 wrote:

Italy economic minister Carlo Calenda says they are "within days" of selecting successful bidders for AZ and beginning exclusive talks.

http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... ithin-days

Candidates?
Assumptions?
Thoughts?

According to Il Sole 24 Ore, AF-KLM and Easyjet to bid together for Alitalia.

http://www.boursorama.com/actualites/easyjet-associe-a-air-france-klm-pour-reprendre-alitalia-f25e5dd3ec98d61917bfbfff2d51b312

Given that Easyjet has made a bid and won slots etc from AirBerlin, and IAG the same for Niki (although in doubt now), one can see the sense re Alitalia. It all depends on how much trust one can assign to the Italian Government. But if you don't ask, you won't get. Maybe high risk, maybe high reward?

I will believe it only when AF-KL and/our U2 becomes Alitalia management. Until that moment, Italians can do any Italian games and change their mind.

If AF/KLM do not try, they would surrender to IAG and LH.

So perhaps there will be an AF/KL/AZ?
Beginning of an oligopoly?

Lufthansa CEO calls for significant Alitalia cuts
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alit ... SKBN1F01RW

=

Basically, a restructured “NewAlitalia” would be smaller in terms of both staff and its fleet. LH sees use for 90-100 AZ planes and about half of its staff.

Recently I read an article that AZ staff have priviliges that LH wants them to get rid of first before a possible takeover. One of those is that every staff based in Milan can live in Rome and AZ completly pays for the journey and if necessary a hotel room.

3 contenders for Alitalia, in portuguese only:

http://www.jb.com.br/internacional/noti ... -alitalia/

A bit more detail in Italian. http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/economia ... 802a.shtml

It mentions DL is part of the AF/KL/U2 combination.

Why easyJet together with AFKL?

Amsterdam wrote:

Why easyJet together with AFKL?

It isn't mentioned in any of the news articles but I imagine U2 is interested in shorthaul and AF/KL in longhaul. Shorthoul could also be divided by base, with AF/KL getting FCO because of feed for the longhaul operation and U2 the rest.

I hope LH and IAG don't get to win the bid. They have enough power as it is, more competition is good (and also don't wanna lose SkyTeam's AZ to Star or OW).

I find the easyJet Air France joint bid deeply troubling. Having just bought part of a basket case airline the airline is geared fully toward its integration. No offence to anyone but they’re joining forces with a basket case airline to buy another basket case airline. It just doesn’t make sense. U2/AF are biggest competitors at CDG/ORY.

I appreciate that ops can be split into short haul and long haul with airlines buying different parts but a joint bid suggests the price is too high or it’s simply too big a task for one airline.

I see a vastly successful airline trying to outstretched itself. U2 already closed its FCO base so it would be odd to create another U2 mega base there not to mention training capacity. U2 is a huge airline. But it’s not that huge.

Yesterday the Italian minister of economic development Carlo Calenda said during a TV interview that he will meet the three bidders on monday and subsequently choose the one to continue negotiations. The aim is to reach an agreement before the elections, and he is confident that it is feasible.

Full video (in Italian): http://www.la7.it/otto-e-mezzo/rivedila ... 018-231351

Latest is that AF have pulled out. My hope is that U2 do the same and pull out. It is too much work between this and TXL.

Surely it's better business sense to let it implode and pick up the pieces? If the Italians are happy to bankroll them then let them. State aid rules are very selectively penalised and there are many ways around it if needed (post offices investing etc).

Several media in The Netherlands report AFKL denies to have bid on Alitalia. Can’t find any conformation on any AFKL website though.

The directors of Air France-KLM have not heard of any plans to take over the Italian company put on sale after the departure of its shareholder Etihad.
( source : Le Figaro )
http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2018/01 ... italia.php

sevenair wrote:

Latest is that AF have pulled out. My hope is that U2 do the same and pull out. It is too much work between this and TXL.

Surely it's better business sense to let it implode and pick up the pieces? If the Italians are happy to bankroll them then let them. State aid rules are very selectively penalised and there are many ways around it if needed (post offices investing etc).

Italians think AZ is a national pride and those employeed by AZ or their Unions do not want to loose their fat seat.
AZ has never been economically well run. It's easier to have it re-nationalised than to sell it and have it run like a proper business.

Two Italian ministers says Italy needs more time to consider expressions of interest for AZ before they decide on entering exclusive talks.

Italy needs more time before starting exclusive talks on Alitalia sale
https://in.reuters.com/article/us-alita ... NKBN1F42GH

vahancrazy wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Latest is that AF have pulled out. My hope is that U2 do the same and pull out. It is too much work between this and TXL.

Surely it's better business sense to let it implode and pick up the pieces? If the Italians are happy to bankroll them then let them. State aid rules are very selectively penalised and there are many ways around it if needed (post offices investing etc).

Italians think AZ is a national pride and those employeed by AZ or their Unions do not want to loose their fat seat.
AZ has never been economically well run. It's easier to have it re-nationalised than to sell it and have it run like a proper business.

How would renationalizing it solve the losses?

kitplane01 wrote:

vahancrazy wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Latest is that AF have pulled out. My hope is that U2 do the same and pull out. It is too much work between this and TXL.

Surely it's better business sense to let it implode and pick up the pieces? If the Italians are happy to bankroll them then let them. State aid rules are very selectively penalised and there are many ways around it if needed (post offices investing etc).

Italians think AZ is a national pride and those employeed by AZ or their Unions do not want to loose their fat seat.
AZ has never been economically well run. It's easier to have it re-nationalised than to sell it and have it run like a proper business.

How would renationalizing it solve the losses?

It would not. It would just make things honest... which is already an achievement when you consider they pretendere to be a business!
Honestly, I do not think there will be anything good from Alitalia.
Of course, as I cannot forecast the future, I'll change my opinion only when i see the proper project to be actually implemented.

mercure1 wrote:

Two Italian ministers says Italy needs more time to consider expressions of interest for AZ before they decide on entering exclusive talks.

In short, they don't like none of the offers and are trying to delay the process till after the election.

Two Italian ministers says Italy needs more time to consider expressions of interest for AZ before they decide on entering exclusive talks.

Italy needs more time before starting exclusive talks on Alitalia sale

Agreed as they can't quite agree as to what to say in the press--- this for two days ago---
https://www.eturbonews.com/175139/new-d ... e-alitalia

Yes, because 3/4 of a year is clearly a very short period to get the deal done. There even were seriously interested parties. I tend to agree now that a renationalisation would be best. There seems to be no way the unions give in and the state aid is very likely already technically illegal. The governement wont let AZ die because if they haven´t done so already they never will.

The interest from AFKL has little to do with AZ and everything to do with LH. They’re afraid that if LH gets their hands on AZ AF will be pushed to the corner fighting with a huge airline group.

VCEflyboy wrote:

The interest from AFKL has little to do with AZ and everything to do with LH. They’re afraid that if LH gets their hands on AZ AF will be pushed to the corner fighting with a huge airline group.

No doubt... which makes me wonder if even IAG will make another run...

AZ has to fail, be allowed to fail, and then let the free market determine if another carrier--whether new or existing--replaces the void.

This AZ dance has been going on for decades, it's ridiculous. Moreover, Italy needs serious economic reforms on a larger scale. So much of AZ's plight is rooted in other symptomatic issues.

I suspect the next watershed moment for AZ will be after the upcoming election.

We've been given the all-clear to recommence booking AZ in our company today, meaning our airline failure protection insurers must be happy with the financial progress AZ have recently made.

F9flyer wrote:

I suspect the next watershed moment for AZ will be after the upcoming election.

You are correct. The decision about who gets to clean up AZ has been postponed until after the upcoming elections - to be held in April, IIRC.

Air France-KLM, Delta examining ways of keeping Alitalia in Skyteam

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKCN1G012S

NBO relaunch have been cancelled apparently? JNB still launching on 8 Apr...any idea how forward bookings are looking like...know they're advertising quite reasonable fares from SA currently, tempted to book to Paris for August, but don't want to until seeing the first flights landing at JNB

dcajet wrote:

F9flyer wrote:

I suspect the next watershed moment for AZ will be after the upcoming election.

You are correct. The decision about who gets to clean up AZ has been postponed until after the upcoming elections - to be held in April, IIRC.

Considering the shear ability to avoid reform, I bet little happens for a year.

I've given up on AZ, AI, and SAA ever reforming. How do you change a non-business culture?

Since the EU no subsidy rules will continue to have no application to AZ, we shall see this repeat again and again.

Lightsaber

Elections are on 4 March, which will say a lot about the government and population's stomachs for reform. It has been a long, cumbersome process: I would say that the best bet is an EZY short haul buy out with some sort of consortium keeping the long haul under AZ and in Skyteam (my outsider's view from BLQ and NAP)

I hope to see AZ continue to grace our skies. It's always sad to me when an airline goes out if business. As long as AZ isn't offering bargain basement fares which hurt other airlines, I say let them continue to fly. If the Italians want to bankroll them, then good for them.

DDR wrote:

I hope to see AZ continue to grace our skies. It's always sad to me when an airline goes out if business. As long as AZ isn't offering bargain basement fares which hurt other airlines, I say let them continue to fly. If the Italians want to bankroll them, then good for them.

At this point, I am fairly certain that there will be an 'Alitalia' in he air for some time to come, the question is around what shape will that take? Long Haul Only, LCC, Domestic, some new model? the only thing certain is that a continuation of the status quo, does not appear to be in the offing.

We’re almost there!!
Alitalia’s special administrators will announce the aviation business buyer on April 30th.

VCEflyboy wrote:

We’re almost there!!
Alitalia’s special administrators will announce the aviation business buyer on April 30th.

April 1st seems more appropriate...

Well the Italian election is over, but there was no clear outcome. What will this mean for AZ?

lightsaber wrote:

dcajet wrote:

F9flyer wrote:

I suspect the next watershed moment for AZ will be after the upcoming election.

You are correct. The decision about who gets to clean up AZ has been postponed until after the upcoming elections - to be held in April, IIRC.

Considering the shear ability to avoid reform, I bet little happens for a year.

I've given up on AZ, AI, and SAA ever reforming. How do you change a non-business culture?

Since the EU no subsidy rules will continue to have no application to AZ, we shall see this repeat again and again.

Lightsaber

How is it that AZ, AI, and SA are able to elude rules about subsidies and are alowed to survive when annually losing huge sums of money? It is a rotten culture for sure, but doesn't anyone have the cojones to make the change, whatever the consequences?

spinotter wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

dcajet wrote:

You are correct. The decision about who gets to clean up AZ has been postponed until after the upcoming elections - to be held in April, IIRC.

Considering the shear ability to avoid reform, I bet little happens for a year.

I've given up on AZ, AI, and SAA ever reforming. How do you change a non-business culture?

Since the EU no subsidy rules will continue to have no application to AZ, we shall see this repeat again and again.

Lightsaber

How is it that AZ, AI, and SA are able to elude rules about subsidies and are alowed to survive when annually losing huge sums of money? It is a rotten culture for sure, but doesn't anyone have the cojones to make the change, whatever the consequences?

Well, for one, the three mentioned airlines belong to three different countries with very different legal frameworks, and at least in the case of India and of South Africa, they are considered to be "flag carriers", consideration that allows them to get away with more dispensations. Those subsidies you mentioned are only a big no no, in these cases, in the European Union. I am sure whatever AZ is going thru has been vetted by the Euro regulators.

spinotter wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

dcajet wrote:

You are correct. The decision about who gets to clean up AZ has been postponed until after the upcoming elections - to be held in April, IIRC.

Considering the shear ability to avoid reform, I bet little happens for a year.

I've given up on AZ, AI, and SAA ever reforming. How do you change a non-business culture?

Since the EU no subsidy rules will continue to have no application to AZ, we shall see this repeat again and again.

Lightsaber

How is it that AZ, AI, and SA are able to elude rules about subsidies and are alowed to survive when annually losing huge sums of money? It is a rotten culture for sure, but doesn't anyone have the cojones to make the change, whatever the consequences?

What EU rules for subsidies? Alitalia is proof there are no such rules. India and South Africa have such poor corruption indexes that rules are optional. See transparency international.

If rules are optional, there is no rule of law and investors adapt accordingly.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

spinotter wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Considering the shear ability to avoid reform, I bet little happens for a year.

I've given up on AZ, AI, and SAA ever reforming. How do you change a non-business culture?

Since the EU no subsidy rules will continue to have no application to AZ, we shall see this repeat again and again.

Lightsaber

How is it that AZ, AI, and SA are able to elude rules about subsidies and are alowed to survive when annually losing huge sums of money? It is a rotten culture for sure, but doesn't anyone have the cojones to make the change, whatever the consequences?

What EU rules for subsidies? Alitalia is proof there are no such rules. India and South Africa have such poor corruption indexes that rules are optional. See transparency international.

If rules are optional, there is no rule of law and investors adapt accordingly.

Lightsaber

But there have been EU cases on these airlines (AF too I think), bit I guess national honor trumps the rules every time and AF will never be liquidated. But isn't it time for AZ to exit stage left?

I remember the AF employees taking to the runway and causing lots of damage. Government and management always yield. It would take a strong leader to tame the unions, but it could be done - and I would love to see some real pitched battles on CDG runways in which the government and army show who is boss! Same for FCO. They are all too fat and happy, those AF-AZ employees.

mercure1 wrote:

Well the Italian election is over, but there was no clear outcome. What will this mean for AZ?

Realistically, nothing will happen until a new government is formed, and with the new landscape, I don't see that happening too quickly.

It is possible that with a 'deadline' at the end of next month, the administrator may be allowed to sell off anything of value and wind up the rest,simply because there is no government to stop him. Politically, this may be a get out of jail card for all the politicians.

ALITALIA is launching Mauritius 3xw next winter on board 3 classes A332

AZ 772 FCO MRU 2115 1035 WeFrSu
AZ 773 MRU FCO 1225 2020 MoThSa

Domestic routes will be hit the worst upon sale

LIRF wrote:

ALITALIA is launching Mauritius 3xw next winter on board 3 classes A332

AZ 772 FCO MRU 2115 1035 WeFrSu
AZ 773 MRU FCO 1225 2020 MoThSa

Indeed just seen this - Mauritius is a popular destination for Italians. There's also a small-ish Mauritian community in Italy. Air Mauritius axed it's FCO and MXP routes a while ago during their European cull, so perhaps this is in response to that.
But how can Alitalia launch routes such as this when there is a the threat of bankruptcy hanging over it?
In any case, nice to see Alitalia back in MRU after more than 20 years. They were one of the first European airlines flying to MRU.

A year ago the forum had multiple threads going on about Alitalia going bust within weeks. Sure, we had this like 10 times before in the last 10 years, but it looked really like it will end very quickly. At least that was the case in summer 2017. Then AB went bust and everyone was expecting AZ to follow. Also we had the unions at AZ decline the last offer EY had made to save the airline and thus it was said they will shut down within weeks.

I don't know what happened then, I think the Italian government poured some money in to find a buyer, but no airline or investor was interested in the whole mess with all its unions and thus only a sale of certain parts or assets was considered.

EasyJet renewed it's interest in certain parts of AZ in early 2018 (link in English):
http://www.ansa.it/english/news/2018/01 ... 48888.html

And again before the Easter weekend 2018 (link in German):
http://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen ... 32752.html

But it's basically the same what they have said all throughout 2017 and it probably would see them taking over the shorthaul fleet and offering new contracts to the crews. That's it.


So when will AZs money run out? Or did the Italian state again made the countries pension fund pour the future pension payments of it's citizens into the airline like they did before? What's keeping them afloat?

They EU can't/won't do much now given the result of the Italian election. Forcing Alitalia into bankruptcy will have the opposite effect.