F9flyer
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:58 pm

All I hear is a ticking clock, and this reporter in China, suggesting Chinese interest is still in play...
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017- ... 665550.htm
My take is there will still be something in the air called Alitalia, but it will be a shadow of it's former self.
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:11 pm

well with 600 mil in the belly and protection from creditors they can go on a long way.
With elections in spring I doubt there will be any decision before a new government takes office.
 
F9flyer
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:00 pm

Not sure the EU will let them hit the snooze that long, Administration must make a public announcement in the beginning of November.
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:01 pm

Let it fail, just like Monarch and airberlin. It's time for the market to sort it out.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:27 pm

Italy supplies additional EUR 300mil bridge loan to fund the airline.
Offer deadline extended till April 30, 2018.

http://www.ansa.it/english/news/politic ... 904ed.html
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/10 ... uring.html
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:04 am

Alitalia will never die... Would be governmental suicide in Italy.
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:09 am

Looks like we're back to square one with this new bridge loan. The government will likely acknowledge no company wanted to take AZ as a whole and launch a new sale offer to delay any decision until after the elections in spring.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:33 am

VCEflyboy wrote:
Looks like we're back to square one with this new bridge loan. The government will likely acknowledge no company wanted to take AZ as a whole and launch a new sale offer to delay any decision until after the elections in spring.

I feel like a cynic, but that "loan" shows that AZ won't be allowed to die.

Obviously the bids weren't favoring a re-election. (Brutal on staffing.)

After all the criticism of US chapter 11 where there is a process followed, I'm absolutely amazed at how corrupt the EU process is. The US process isn't ideal, but what is with this taking a Mulligan?

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anstar
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:49 am

LAXintl wrote:
Italy supplies additional EUR 300mil bridge loan to fund the airline.
Offer deadline extended till April 30, 2018.

http://www.ansa.it/english/news/politic ... 904ed.html
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/10 ... uring.html


I thought under EU rules they couldn't have continuous loans like this?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:11 am

Checking on Flightradar24, it appears that Alitalia did get the 777-300ER it was leasing...briefly. However, it ferried back to Zurich on Monday, presumably repossessed by AerCap.
 
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CarbonFibre
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:31 am

The 777 went to ZRH for maintenance. http://skyliner-aviation.de/showphotos.main?from=1
 
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SQ22
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:31 am

lightsaber wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Looks like we're back to square one with this new bridge loan. The government will likely acknowledge no company wanted to take AZ as a whole and launch a new sale offer to delay any decision until after the elections in spring.

I feel like a cynic, but that "loan" shows that AZ won't be allowed to die.

Obviously the bids weren't favoring a re-election. (Brutal on staffing.)

After all the criticism of US chapter 11 where there is a process followed, I'm absolutely amazed at how corrupt the EU process is. The US process isn't ideal, but what is with this taking a Mulligan?

Lightsaber


This is not the EU process, this is the national process. EU steps in at a later stage to check if everything was done within EU rules. Here I agree with you, because we can expect they will find a "solution".
 
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Slash787
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:32 am

mercure1 wrote:
Alitalia will never die... Would be governmental suicide in Italy.


Yeah, the situation is similar like to Air India
 
scotron11
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:49 am

jnev3289 wrote:
Every time I see a new post in this thread I keep thinking it'll be some definite news about a last flight or something. Well I guess I'll have to wait a few more days/weeks.


Your agony is confirmed!

http://www.ansa.it/english/news/politic ... 904ed.html
 
GianiDC
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:22 pm

So they willl be one whole year under administration? And how much government money will they have burned? By now it should be clear that nobody is interested in AZ at least not a the current asking price. And who should be? LH group just had a major aquisiton with AB, FR has internal problems, easyjet seems to lack capacity with its part absorbtion of AB and Monarch. The ME3 are out. AF/KLM or IAG are for me the only realistic candidates at the moment, without knowing if they really are interested.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:13 pm

Slash787 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Alitalia will never die... Would be governmental suicide in Italy.


Yeah, the situation is similar like to Air India

The situation is costly for both when the reality is there will be no loss of service if the poorly run entity is allowed to fail. Money is spent for corrupt reasons. I'd love to know from both those airlines who really takes the money home.

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lightsaber
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:17 pm

GianiDC wrote:
So they willl be one whole year under administration? And how much government money will they have burned? By now it should be clear that nobody is interested in AZ at least not a the current asking price. And who should be? LH group just had a major aquisiton with AB, FR has internal problems, easyjet seems to lack capacity with its part absorbtion of AB and Monarch. The ME3 are out. AF/KLM or IAG are for me the only realistic candidates at the moment, without knowing if they really are interested.

Probably not interested at the expected organization. The reality is people have a hope to keep the inefficiency (keep too many people employed doing too little to break even).

How many times has Alitalia failed and been bailed out?

Lightsaber
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:33 pm

Ok the official reason stated for postponing the deadline was the exceptional circumstances of Ryanair going through massive cancellations and air berlin and monarch going bankrupt thus weakening the bargaining position.
The real reason is that the only bidder was LH which is only interested in the aviation part and wants to get rid of all ground staff. Ryanair pulled out and Easyjet CEO is quitting later this year and not in a position to proceed with the offer as he will be replaced.
 
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SuperTwin
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:21 am

What an embarassment. Put this old hound out to pasture already.
SuperTwin
 
ahmetdouas
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:53 am

Italy can manipulate it as much as it likes to, but Alitalia is a defacto government-owned and controlled airline. So no one in their right minds would buy it as it is, and the government cannot give it away without a lot of the staff, with the remaining staff on much less generous contracts, something which would be too costly politically. So la dolce vita it is (!), unless EU puts a stop to this madness once and for all.
 
scotron11
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:20 am

ahmetdouas wrote:
Italy can manipulate it as much as it likes to, but Alitalia is a defacto government-owned and controlled airline. So no one in their right minds would buy it as it is, and the government cannot give it away without a lot of the staff, with the remaining staff on much less generous contracts, something which would be too costly politically. So la dolce vita it is (!), unless EU puts a stop to this madness once and for all.


I agree, right now they have "loaned" AZ 900M euros until September 2018, with the sale process extended until April. Where is AZ getting this money to repay that "loan" if they are not making it in the first place? Farcial! EU should stop this soon as.
 
LJ
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:07 am

VCEflyboy wrote:
Ok the official reason stated for postponing the deadline was the exceptional circumstances of Ryanair going through massive cancellations and air berlin and monarch going bankrupt thus weakening the bargaining position.
The real reason is that the only bidder was LH which is only interested in the aviation part and wants to get rid of all ground staff. Ryanair pulled out and Easyjet CEO is quitting later this year and not in a position to proceed with the offer as he will be replaced.


I doubt LH made a good offer as they're tied to the integration of Air Berlin. The bankruptcy of Monarch and Air Berlin really messed up everything for AZ. Easyjet, IAG and Norwegian need their cash for picking up the pieces of Monarch, easyJet needs money as well to get something of Air Berlin (and thus is out for AZ).

scotron11 wrote:
I agree, right now they have "loaned" AZ 900M euros until September 2018, with the sale process extended until April. Where is AZ getting this money to repay that "loan" if they are not making it in the first place? Farcial! EU should stop this soon as.


I really hope the EU would do this. The grounds on which it received the first 600M was questionable, the next 300M is even more questionable. Moreover, if they need 600M to cover 6 months, how can they manage with 300M for 12 months, especially when people are already booking away from AZ (too much risk and insurance companies are reluctant to cover insolvency for AZ flights).
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:54 pm

The cash flow atm is actually ok given that they have protection from creditors and they've been selling dirt cheap advance tickets. LHR to DEL sells for 900£ in J. FCO to DEL is a little over 400 eur both return. Right now the MD is the former Head of EK in Italy so he's pushing for new destinations I'm SA and Africa but there's shortage of aircraft.
 
scotron11
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:22 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
The cash flow atm is actually ok given that they have protection from creditors and they've been selling dirt cheap advance tickets. LHR to DEL sells for 900£ in J. FCO to DEL is a little over 400 eur both return. Right now the MD is the former Head of EK in Italy so he's pushing for new destinations I'm SA and Africa but there's shortage of aircraft.


Coz the actual cash is coming from the Italian state...boggles my mind why AZ continually has this crisis...you would have thought they would have figured out where the problems were and taken action to solve it. Who is now in charge? I guess the other question is what happens next year when this loan is due, where is the money??
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:23 am

scotron11 wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
The cash flow atm is actually ok given that they have protection from creditors and they've been selling dirt cheap advance tickets. LHR to DEL sells for 900£ in J. FCO to DEL is a little over 400 eur both return. Right now the MD is the former Head of EK in Italy so he's pushing for new destinations I'm SA and Africa but there's shortage of aircraft.


Coz the actual cash is coming from the Italian state...boggles my mind why AZ continually has this crisis...you would have thought they would have figured out where the problems were and taken action to solve it. Who is now in charge? I guess the other question is what happens next year when this loan is due, where is the money??

It goes without saying these 'loans' will never be repaid. AZ was bleeding money and there is little sign of any fix since the filing for bankruptcy.

This is a subsidy. A very clear subsidy.

I wouldn't have minded the Italian government paying off debt to sell part of Alitalia off. That would have ended the crisis. But this I really mind. No airline should be subsidized. That is just a waste of resources (same with Air India as India could use more airports, roads, hospitals, or schools instead of paying for a service that would happen anyway).

Within a country is allowed (by international rules FWIW). Now, the US program needs reform, but I'd be OK with Italy putting up for bid to serve markets Italy to Italy. But notice bids... and I would expect most (if not all) to be flown by turboprops.

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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:52 am

Paying even EUR €1bil annually to keep AZ alive is a small price to pay for Italian state.

In comparison this year Italian taxpayers paid €17 bil to restructure two failing banks.

Frankly, they should just renationalize AZ similar to the many other state enterprises in Italy and be done with it. No shame in having state owned airline.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:36 am

mercure1 wrote:
Frankly, they should just renationalize AZ similar to the many other state enterprises in Italy and be done with it. No shame in having state owned airline.


If they nationalise AZ, do the competition authorities have any say? Would AZ have to give up any slots for example?
 
planespotter20
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:51 am

Despite what some may say, AZ will never fail. If no airline will buy it, eventually some rich italian billionaire will get paid by the government to buy AZ and “turn it around.”
 
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fraspotter
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:40 am

If I were Alitalia aircrew I'd be doing all I could to jump ship to another carrier rather than wait for the final shoe to drop for the final time as I would in any company in a similar situation as Alitalia.
"Taking off is optional. It’s landing that’s mandatory."
 
scotron11
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:48 am

planespotter20 wrote:
Despite what some may say, AZ will never fail. If no airline will buy it, eventually some rich italian billionaire will get paid by the government to buy AZ and “turn it around.”


Well, according to WIKI, AZ has had only 1 profitable year (1998) since their founding in 1946! Pretty incredible. Certainly NOT the way to run an airline, nationalized or not!

Does EU rules allow the Italian government to nationalize AZ? Maybe that's what is needed.....or get someone really competent to really fix it.
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:37 pm

lightsaber wrote:
This is a subsidy. A very clear subsidy.


Awaiting the US3 airlines adding Alitalia to their ME3 campaign with bated breath!
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:12 pm

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.cnbc.co ... paper.html


"Lufthansa reportedly offers 500 million euros ($590 million) to acquire the planes, airport runway slots and air crew of Italy's ailing national carrier Alitalia"
 
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Revelation
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:57 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/10/16/lufthansa-offers-500-million-euro-for-alitalia-planes-staff-paper.html

"Lufthansa reportedly offers 500 million euros ($590 million) to acquire the planes, airport runway slots and air crew of Italy's ailing national carrier Alitalia"

Some context:

Citing three anonymous sources, the paper said Lufthansa has also proposed halving Alitalia's workforce of 12,000 employees and reducing its short- and medium-range flights.

The paper said the offer was likely to be rejected by the state commissioners who are managing the carrier while it is being sold. Lufthansa declined to comment on the report.

LH gobbles up AB and now makes a play for AZ, but the offer is likely to be rejected.

Very interesting, says I.
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scotron11
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/10/16/lufthansa-offers-500-million-euro-for-alitalia-planes-staff-paper.html

"Lufthansa reportedly offers 500 million euros ($590 million) to acquire the planes, airport runway slots and air crew of Italy's ailing national carrier Alitalia"

Some context:

Citing three anonymous sources, the paper said Lufthansa has also proposed halving Alitalia's workforce of 12,000 employees and reducing its short- and medium-range flights.

The paper said the offer was likely to be rejected by the state commissioners who are managing the carrier while it is being sold. Lufthansa declined to comment on the report.

LH gobbles up AB and now makes a play for AZ, but the offer is likely to be rejected.

Very interesting, says I.


Yeah..coz the employees are just part of the problem! Maybe LH is lowballing coz they figure AZ is in dire straits...but I cannot see the administrator agreeing to 6000 job losses. Then again, if AZ go, then the entire workforce is kaput!
 
Egerton
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:53 pm

FT writes that Alitalia sale delayed after woes at European airlines - but has a pay wall.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:12 pm

Here it is another, updated, article:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alit ... SKBN1CL191
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:43 pm

At some point European competition authorities need to look at LH and its market influence. Having ownership of so many airlines in Europe could be problematic and anti-consumer one day.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:58 pm

Lufthansa says its only submitted "a concept for establishing a re-structured Alitalia", and not opted to make an offer for the complete existing AZ as some media reporting.


Press release:
https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... 4bed9a4929
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SQ22
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:02 pm

Please continue to discuss LH offer here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1376363

I think it would be way too early to lock the thread, so for the time being it will remain open.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:52 pm

Besides LH Group, 6 other bids received for AZ. EasyJet confirmed as one.

Administrators plan to review them through April.

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/ ... talia-bids
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-50503735
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:32 pm

French media says Norwegian and a Chinese enterprise (HNA?) were bidders also

http://www.air-journal.fr/2017-10-17-al ... 89068.html
 
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SQ22
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:03 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Besides LH Group, 6 other bids received for AZ. EasyJet confirmed as one.

Administrators plan to review them through April.

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/ ... talia-bids
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-50503735


Like LH U2 was interested only in some parts of AZ.
 
grjplanes
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:19 am

Seems they're seriously planning to launch JNB next year...although I would love this very much from a South African perception, is this however possible and a good idea to make such announcements while you're on the brink of collapse?
 
Breathe
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:41 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
Ok the official reason stated for postponing the deadline was the exceptional circumstances of Ryanair going through massive cancellations and air berlin and monarch going bankrupt thus weakening the bargaining position.
The real reason is that the only bidder was LH which is only interested in the aviation part and wants to get rid of all ground staff. Ryanair pulled out and Easyjet CEO is quitting later this year and not in a position to proceed with the offer as he will be replaced.


Since when was Carolyn McCall a man?

Image
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:40 pm

US private equity company Cerberus Capital Management proposes full takeover of Alitalia that would allow carrier to remain independent

https://www.ft.com/content/5e2be592-b89 ... 9?mhq5j=e5
 
GianiDC
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:32 pm

mercure1 wrote:
US private equity company Cerberus Capital Management proposes full takeover of Alitalia that would allow carrier to remain independent

https://www.ft.com/content/5e2be592-b89 ... 9?mhq5j=e5


With EU regulations they can only acquire 49% stake, can´t they?
 
KATL2
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:51 pm

mercure1 wrote:
US private equity company Cerberus Capital Management proposes full takeover of Alitalia that would allow carrier to remain independent

https://www.ft.com/content/5e2be592-b89 ... 9?mhq5j=e5



the same company that ran Chrysler into the ground? good luck Alitalia
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:57 pm

Cerberus did a good job with Air Canada including winning over unions.
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Samrnpage
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:09 am

What is actually happening with this airline then? Is it going under ? Ceasing operations? being sold off in parts? They are still operating like normal by the looks of it. Are the staff being paid?
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:14 am

Well whose paying the losses?

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