braniff2hav
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:44 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
I am proud of Alitalia for outlasting all of the drama on this thread! People keep posting, and Alitalia keeps flying. I flew the reconfigured 777 in J this summer from FCO-JFK, and it was the most pleasant flight - with the best food - that I have had in a decade anywhere in the world. I will absolutely fly them again next time I have to be in Italy, and I hope I get the chance to.


About 1000 people on this thread said the same thing. Alitalia will fly forever, be organized poorly, have more employees and fewer passengers than other airlines, and lose money forever, and continue in this path forever.

The current situation is not anything to be proud of.

That Alitalia continues like this is not a good thing.


I too flew that route, but I think it was the A330 and will say the AZ flight outshined the front cabin offerings of JJ, LA, DL, AA, UA, AF and even my very short EK Business Class flight. Service spot on, food amazing and seat was the most comfortable.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:26 pm

Italy economic minister Carlo Calenda says they are "within days" of selecting successful bidders for AZ and beginning exclusive talks.

http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... ithin-days
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:12 am

mercure1 wrote:
Italy economic minister Carlo Calenda says they are "within days" of selecting successful bidders for AZ and beginning exclusive talks.

http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... ithin-days


Candidates?
Assumptions?
Thoughts?
 
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MrBren
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:31 am

 
Egerton
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:32 am

Given that Easyjet has made a bid and won slots etc from AirBerlin, and IAG the same for Niki (although in doubt now), one can see the sense re Alitalia. It all depends on how much trust one can assign to the Italian Government. But if you don't ask, you won't get. Maybe high risk, maybe high reward?
 
vahancrazy
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:18 am

I will believe it only when AF-KL and/our U2 becomes Alitalia management. Until that moment, Italians can do any Italian games and change their mind.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:58 am

If AF/KLM do not try, they would surrender to IAG and LH.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:50 pm

So perhaps there will be an AF/KL/AZ?
Beginning of an oligopoly?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:25 pm

Lufthansa CEO calls for significant Alitalia cuts
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alit ... SKBN1F01RW

=

Basically, a restructured “NewAlitalia” would be smaller in terms of both staff and its fleet. LH sees use for 90-100 AZ planes and about half of its staff.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
GianiDC
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:38 pm

Recently I read an article that AZ staff have priviliges that LH wants them to get rid of first before a possible takeover. One of those is that every staff based in Milan can live in Rome and AZ completly pays for the journey and if necessary a hotel room.
 
LPSHobby
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Lufthansa, AirnFrance-Easyjet and Cerberus fight for Alitalia

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:43 pm

3 contenders for Alitalia, in portuguese only:

http://www.jb.com.br/internacional/noti ... -alitalia/
 
Jetty
Posts: 566
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Re: Lufthansa, AirnFrance-Easyjet and Cerberus fight for Alitalia

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:02 pm

A bit more detail in Italian. http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/economia ... 802a.shtml

It mentions DL is part of the AF/KL/U2 combination.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:00 pm

Why easyJet together with AFKL?
 
Jetty
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:08 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
Why easyJet together with AFKL?

It isn't mentioned in any of the news articles but I imagine U2 is interested in shorthaul and AF/KL in longhaul. Shorthoul could also be divided by base, with AF/KL getting FCO because of feed for the longhaul operation and U2 the rest.
 
AtomicGarden
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:42 am

I hope LH and IAG don't get to win the bid. They have enough power as it is, more competition is good (and also don't wanna lose SkyTeam's AZ to Star or OW).
 
sevenair
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:42 am

I find the easyJet Air France joint bid deeply troubling. Having just bought part of a basket case airline the airline is geared fully toward its integration. No offence to anyone but they’re joining forces with a basket case airline to buy another basket case airline. It just doesn’t make sense. U2/AF are biggest competitors at CDG/ORY.

I appreciate that ops can be split into short haul and long haul with airlines buying different parts but a joint bid suggests the price is too high or it’s simply too big a task for one airline.

I see a vastly successful airline trying to outstretched itself. U2 already closed its FCO base so it would be odd to create another U2 mega base there not to mention training capacity. U2 is a huge airline. But it’s not that huge.
Diversity is our strength. Unless it's diversity of opinion, then anything is fair game.
 
HighFlyerIT
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:30 pm

Yesterday the Italian minister of economic development Carlo Calenda said during a TV interview that he will meet the three bidders on monday and subsequently choose the one to continue negotiations. The aim is to reach an agreement before the elections, and he is confident that it is feasible.

Full video (in Italian): http://www.la7.it/otto-e-mezzo/rivedila ... 018-231351
 
sevenair
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:13 pm

Latest is that AF have pulled out. My hope is that U2 do the same and pull out. It is too much work between this and TXL.

Surely it's better business sense to let it implode and pick up the pieces? If the Italians are happy to bankroll them then let them. State aid rules are very selectively penalised and there are many ways around it if needed (post offices investing etc).
Diversity is our strength. Unless it's diversity of opinion, then anything is fair game.
 
76er
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:14 pm

Several media in The Netherlands report AFKL denies to have bid on Alitalia. Can’t find any conformation on any AFKL website though.
 
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nordikcam
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:10 pm

The directors of Air France-KLM have not heard of any plans to take over the Italian company put on sale after the departure of its shareholder Etihad.
( source : Le Figaro )
http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2018/01 ... italia.php
 
vahancrazy
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:22 am

sevenair wrote:
Latest is that AF have pulled out. My hope is that U2 do the same and pull out. It is too much work between this and TXL.

Surely it's better business sense to let it implode and pick up the pieces? If the Italians are happy to bankroll them then let them. State aid rules are very selectively penalised and there are many ways around it if needed (post offices investing etc).


Italians think AZ is a national pride and those employeed by AZ or their Unions do not want to loose their fat seat.
AZ has never been economically well run. It's easier to have it re-nationalised than to sell it and have it run like a proper business.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:57 pm

Two Italian ministers says Italy needs more time to consider expressions of interest for AZ before they decide on entering exclusive talks.

Italy needs more time before starting exclusive talks on Alitalia sale
https://in.reuters.com/article/us-alita ... NKBN1F42GH
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:31 pm

vahancrazy wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Latest is that AF have pulled out. My hope is that U2 do the same and pull out. It is too much work between this and TXL.

Surely it's better business sense to let it implode and pick up the pieces? If the Italians are happy to bankroll them then let them. State aid rules are very selectively penalised and there are many ways around it if needed (post offices investing etc).


Italians think AZ is a national pride and those employeed by AZ or their Unions do not want to loose their fat seat.
AZ has never been economically well run. It's easier to have it re-nationalised than to sell it and have it run like a proper business.


How would renationalizing it solve the losses?
 
vahancrazy
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:23 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
vahancrazy wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Latest is that AF have pulled out. My hope is that U2 do the same and pull out. It is too much work between this and TXL.

Surely it's better business sense to let it implode and pick up the pieces? If the Italians are happy to bankroll them then let them. State aid rules are very selectively penalised and there are many ways around it if needed (post offices investing etc).


Italians think AZ is a national pride and those employeed by AZ or their Unions do not want to loose their fat seat.
AZ has never been economically well run. It's easier to have it re-nationalised than to sell it and have it run like a proper business.


How would renationalizing it solve the losses?


It would not. It would just make things honest... which is already an achievement when you consider they pretendere to be a business!
Honestly, I do not think there will be anything good from Alitalia.
Of course, as I cannot forecast the future, I'll change my opinion only when i see the proper project to be actually implemented.
 
LJ
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:40 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Two Italian ministers says Italy needs more time to consider expressions of interest for AZ before they decide on entering exclusive talks.


In short, they don't like none of the offers and are trying to delay the process till after the election.
 
F9flyer
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:11 pm

Two Italian ministers says Italy needs more time to consider expressions of interest for AZ before they decide on entering exclusive talks.

Italy needs more time before starting exclusive talks on Alitalia sale
Agreed as they can't quite agree as to what to say in the press--- this for two days ago---
https://www.eturbonews.com/175139/new-d ... e-alitalia
 
GianiDC
Posts: 162
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:00 pm

Yes, because 3/4 of a year is clearly a very short period to get the deal done. There even were seriously interested parties. I tend to agree now that a renationalisation would be best. There seems to be no way the unions give in and the state aid is very likely already technically illegal. The governement wont let AZ die because if they haven´t done so already they never will.
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:32 pm

The interest from AFKL has little to do with AZ and everything to do with LH. They’re afraid that if LH gets their hands on AZ AF will be pushed to the corner fighting with a huge airline group.
 
F9flyer
Topic Author
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:45 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
The interest from AFKL has little to do with AZ and everything to do with LH. They’re afraid that if LH gets their hands on AZ AF will be pushed to the corner fighting with a huge airline group.

No doubt... which makes me wonder if even IAG will make another run...
 
slider
Posts: 7057
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:47 pm

AZ has to fail, be allowed to fail, and then let the free market determine if another carrier--whether new or existing--replaces the void.

This AZ dance has been going on for decades, it's ridiculous. Moreover, Italy needs serious economic reforms on a larger scale. So much of AZ's plight is rooted in other symptomatic issues.
 
F9flyer
Topic Author
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:20 pm

I suspect the next watershed moment for AZ will be after the upcoming election.
 
TC957
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:36 pm

We've been given the all-clear to recommence booking AZ in our company today, meaning our airline failure protection insurers must be happy with the financial progress AZ have recently made.
 
dcajet
Posts: 2895
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:16 pm

F9flyer wrote:
I suspect the next watershed moment for AZ will be after the upcoming election.


You are correct. The decision about who gets to clean up AZ has been postponed until after the upcoming elections - to be held in April, IIRC.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Nola
Posts: 296
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:29 pm

Air France-KLM, Delta examining ways of keeping Alitalia in Skyteam

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKCN1G012S
 
grjplanes
Posts: 147
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:45 pm

NBO relaunch have been cancelled apparently? JNB still launching on 8 Apr...any idea how forward bookings are looking like...know they're advertising quite reasonable fares from SA currently, tempted to book to Paris for August, but don't want to until seeing the first flights landing at JNB
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:51 pm

dcajet wrote:
F9flyer wrote:
I suspect the next watershed moment for AZ will be after the upcoming election.


You are correct. The decision about who gets to clean up AZ has been postponed until after the upcoming elections - to be held in April, IIRC.

Considering the shear ability to avoid reform, I bet little happens for a year.

I've given up on AZ, AI, and SAA ever reforming. How do you change a non-business culture?

Since the EU no subsidy rules will continue to have no application to AZ, we shall see this repeat again and again.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
TATLTALE
Posts: 31
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:30 pm

Elections are on 4 March, which will say a lot about the government and population's stomachs for reform. It has been a long, cumbersome process: I would say that the best bet is an EZY short haul buy out with some sort of consortium keeping the long haul under AZ and in Skyteam (my outsider's view from BLQ and NAP)
Oh stewardess, I speak jive
 
DDR
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:16 am

I hope to see AZ continue to grace our skies. It's always sad to me when an airline goes out if business. As long as AZ isn't offering bargain basement fares which hurt other airlines, I say let them continue to fly. If the Italians want to bankroll them, then good for them.
 
F9flyer
Topic Author
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:41 pm

DDR wrote:
I hope to see AZ continue to grace our skies. It's always sad to me when an airline goes out if business. As long as AZ isn't offering bargain basement fares which hurt other airlines, I say let them continue to fly. If the Italians want to bankroll them, then good for them.

At this point, I am fairly certain that there will be an 'Alitalia' in he air for some time to come, the question is around what shape will that take? Long Haul Only, LCC, Domestic, some new model? the only thing certain is that a continuation of the status quo, does not appear to be in the offing.
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:49 pm

We’re almost there!!
Alitalia’s special administrators will announce the aviation business buyer on April 30th.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 18814
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:56 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
We’re almost there!!
Alitalia’s special administrators will announce the aviation business buyer on April 30th.

April 1st seems more appropriate...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
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mercure1
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:51 pm

Well the Italian election is over, but there was no clear outcome. What will this mean for AZ?
 
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spinotter
Posts: 213
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:29 pm

lightsaber wrote:
dcajet wrote:
F9flyer wrote:
I suspect the next watershed moment for AZ will be after the upcoming election.


You are correct. The decision about who gets to clean up AZ has been postponed until after the upcoming elections - to be held in April, IIRC.

Considering the shear ability to avoid reform, I bet little happens for a year.

I've given up on AZ, AI, and SAA ever reforming. How do you change a non-business culture?

Since the EU no subsidy rules will continue to have no application to AZ, we shall see this repeat again and again.

Lightsaber


How is it that AZ, AI, and SA are able to elude rules about subsidies and are alowed to survive when annually losing huge sums of money? It is a rotten culture for sure, but doesn't anyone have the cojones to make the change, whatever the consequences?
 
dcajet
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:45 pm

spinotter wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
dcajet wrote:

You are correct. The decision about who gets to clean up AZ has been postponed until after the upcoming elections - to be held in April, IIRC.

Considering the shear ability to avoid reform, I bet little happens for a year.

I've given up on AZ, AI, and SAA ever reforming. How do you change a non-business culture?

Since the EU no subsidy rules will continue to have no application to AZ, we shall see this repeat again and again.

Lightsaber


How is it that AZ, AI, and SA are able to elude rules about subsidies and are alowed to survive when annually losing huge sums of money? It is a rotten culture for sure, but doesn't anyone have the cojones to make the change, whatever the consequences?


Well, for one, the three mentioned airlines belong to three different countries with very different legal frameworks, and at least in the case of India and of South Africa, they are considered to be "flag carriers", consideration that allows them to get away with more dispensations. Those subsidies you mentioned are only a big no no, in these cases, in the European Union. I am sure whatever AZ is going thru has been vetted by the Euro regulators.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:04 pm

spinotter wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
dcajet wrote:

You are correct. The decision about who gets to clean up AZ has been postponed until after the upcoming elections - to be held in April, IIRC.

Considering the shear ability to avoid reform, I bet little happens for a year.

I've given up on AZ, AI, and SAA ever reforming. How do you change a non-business culture?

Since the EU no subsidy rules will continue to have no application to AZ, we shall see this repeat again and again.

Lightsaber


How is it that AZ, AI, and SA are able to elude rules about subsidies and are alowed to survive when annually losing huge sums of money? It is a rotten culture for sure, but doesn't anyone have the cojones to make the change, whatever the consequences?

What EU rules for subsidies? Alitalia is proof there are no such rules. India and South Africa have such poor corruption indexes that rules are optional. See transparency international.

If rules are optional, there is no rule of law and investors adapt accordingly.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
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spinotter
Posts: 213
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Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
spinotter wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Considering the shear ability to avoid reform, I bet little happens for a year.

I've given up on AZ, AI, and SAA ever reforming. How do you change a non-business culture?

Since the EU no subsidy rules will continue to have no application to AZ, we shall see this repeat again and again.

Lightsaber


How is it that AZ, AI, and SA are able to elude rules about subsidies and are alowed to survive when annually losing huge sums of money? It is a rotten culture for sure, but doesn't anyone have the cojones to make the change, whatever the consequences?

What EU rules for subsidies? Alitalia is proof there are no such rules. India and South Africa have such poor corruption indexes that rules are optional. See transparency international.

If rules are optional, there is no rule of law and investors adapt accordingly.

Lightsaber


But there have been EU cases on these airlines (AF too I think), bit I guess national honor trumps the rules every time and AF will never be liquidated. But isn't it time for AZ to exit stage left?

I remember the AF employees taking to the runway and causing lots of damage. Government and management always yield. It would take a strong leader to tame the unions, but it could be done - and I would love to see some real pitched battles on CDG runways in which the government and army show who is boss! Same for FCO. They are all too fat and happy, those AF-AZ employees.
 
VolvoBus
Posts: 191
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:47 pm

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:47 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Well the Italian election is over, but there was no clear outcome. What will this mean for AZ?


Realistically, nothing will happen until a new government is formed, and with the new landscape, I don't see that happening too quickly.

It is possible that with a 'deadline' at the end of next month, the administrator may be allowed to sell off anything of value and wind up the rest,simply because there is no government to stop him. Politically, this may be a get out of jail card for all the politicians.
 
LIRF
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:45 pm

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:18 am

ALITALIA is launching Mauritius 3xw next winter on board 3 classes A332

AZ 772 FCO MRU 2115 1035 WeFrSu
AZ 773 MRU FCO 1225 2020 MoThSa
 
slickvik
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:27 pm

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:06 pm

Domestic routes will be hit the worst upon sale
 
PieterBoth
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:49 pm

Re: Alitalia Files For Bankruptcy

Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:40 pm

LIRF wrote:
ALITALIA is launching Mauritius 3xw next winter on board 3 classes A332

AZ 772 FCO MRU 2115 1035 WeFrSu
AZ 773 MRU FCO 1225 2020 MoThSa


Indeed just seen this - Mauritius is a popular destination for Italians. There's also a small-ish Mauritian community in Italy. Air Mauritius axed it's FCO and MXP routes a while ago during their European cull, so perhaps this is in response to that.
But how can Alitalia launch routes such as this when there is a the threat of bankruptcy hanging over it?
In any case, nice to see Alitalia back in MRU after more than 20 years. They were one of the first European airlines flying to MRU.

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