ikramerica
Posts: 14239
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:41 am

StarAC17 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
I asked a friend this question:

What if the headline read:

"Professional poker player/convicted drug dealer dragged from plane."

Would people have a different opinion?

I mean, that's also an accurate description of the man.


IIRC this was discredited.

The person that you are talking about is a different individual with the same name but not this person.

No, it wasn't. It was called racist to bring it up, told to us by certain opinion outlets that even if true, his past should have no bearing on the incident etc. and some tried to immediately claim it was a different person.

But there is no evidence that there are two Dr Daos. The claims that there are two Dr Daos is the fake news. There is but one in this case. Despite being convicted of the crimes, he told the medical board that he didn't pay for sex and wasn't paid for the drugs he prescribed, but instead had a debt reduced by having sex (there is no difference).

The point is, there is a NARRATIVE about this story that is one sided. That's why I posed the question. Much of our news isn't truth, it's a narrative that selectively provides facts in order to create an opionion.

any attempt to shed light on why this man behaved the way he did is dismissed, but especially in a civil case, it's all relevant and fair game. He is likely to get very little in this case should he have to undergo full discovery and investigations.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:59 am

ikramerica wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
I asked a friend this question:

What if the headline read:

"Professional poker player/convicted drug dealer dragged from plane."

Would people have a different opinion?

I mean, that's also an accurate description of the man.


IIRC this was discredited.

The person that you are talking about is a different individual with the same name but not this person.

No, it wasn't. It was called racist to bring it up, told to us by certain opinion outlets that even if true, his past should have no bearing on the incident etc. and some tried to immediately claim it was a different person.


I doubt my response to you will make a bit of difference as far as you are concerned. After reading many of your posts here I think you are beyond reasoning with.

However............

Whatever Dr. Dao did, it was in response to the illegal actions by the airline and their chosen enforcers (I won't dignify them by calling them cops).

A court, if this actually gets to court, will render judgement based on who did what, who violated laws, including civil rights laws.

Dr. Dao was minding his own business when he was illegally set upon. His assailants will pay (probably by out-of-court settlement).

I can assure you that United Airlines doesn't want this event to go viral again because of open court hearings covered by every media outlet and social media blog.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
Andy33
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:45 am

Does anyone know:
(1) who called the cops - was it the United gate agents or the Republic flight crew?
(2) why did they call the wrong set of cops? As their employer, the Chicago Department of Aviation, said in a public statement, the airport police/security have no jurisdiction to remove passengers from planes at all, for any reason, ever. The Chicago PD does have jurisdiction, but weren't called.
(3) why, since they must have known they had no jurisdiction, did the airport police/security go on board and forcibly remove Dr Dao?
(4) would the Chicago PD (had they been called) have insisted on investigating the circumstances before forcibly removing Dr Dao, which would cause the flight to be delayed?
 
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GlenP
Posts: 245
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:09 am

Andy33 wrote:
Does anyone know:
(1) who called the cops - was it the United gate agents or the Republic flight crew?
(2) why did they call the wrong set of cops? As their employer, the Chicago Department of Aviation, said in a public statement, the airport police/security have no jurisdiction to remove passengers from planes at all, for any reason, ever. The Chicago PD does have jurisdiction, but weren't called.
(3) why, since they must have known they had no jurisdiction, did the airport police/security go on board and forcibly remove Dr Dao?
(4) would the Chicago PD (had they been called) have insisted on investigating the circumstances before forcibly removing Dr Dao, which would cause the flight to be delayed?


TBH, Their having overstepped their authority reminds me of a PCSO (Police Community Support Officer - think uniformed police auxilliary but with no powers of arrest) at a force which I once worked with, used to bombard the Chief Constable with requests that he & his colleagues be issued with CS gas spray and battons, on a regular basis. Needless to say the suggestion was not taken up.

Eventually they had to pull him off the streets, when he pressed for the arming of PCSOs.

We won't even mention the Highways Agency Traffic Officers.

It appears to be the case that, once you give some people a uniform and a limited amount of authority, they have an irresistible urge to exceed their powers. Must be something to do with human nature, I guess
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:42 am

ikramerica wrote:
I asked a friend this question:

What if the headline read:

"Professional poker player/convicted drug dealer dragged from plane."

Would people have a different opinion?

I mean, that's also an accurate description of the man.


How desperate are you?
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:18 am

Braniff1 wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
Braniff1 wrote:

Wow, you must be proud of your lack of intelligence. Easy to sit behind a computer and spout stupidity; I wonder if you're a Chicago cop; because you talk like a thug cop.

Sorry about the Chicago P.D. comment. After reading more of your "stuff" it's obvious that I sold CPD short. I believe you may be a follower of Joe Goebbles; he convinced many that his political group would be good for the public, and some of us know how that turned out. Carry on.



You can believe all you want, but you're the one spouting stupidity. Easy to judge someone you don't know from "behind a computer," but you know nothing of my intellect.


A brilliant man once noted: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." Your non-intellectual spin on society allows the intelligent posters here to see you for what you are. I pray that OSU is not a place that granted you a degree; if so, it was waste of someones money and a black mark on such institution. No, I do not know you or that fat crazy kid in North Korea, but I know enough about you both to know that you're both way off center in the mentality dept. I also know, that any further talk with you, is a waste of time.


LOL you are insane. A black mark on OSU. LOL The intelligent posters. I hope you are laughing at yourself, because you're a joke.
 
smaragdz
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:36 am

ikramerica wrote:
The point is, there is a NARRATIVE about this story that is one sided. That's why I posed the question. Much of our news isn't truth, it's a narrative that selectively provides facts in order to create an opionion.

any attempt to shed light on why this man behaved the way he did is dismissed, but especially in a civil case, it's all relevant and fair game. He is likely to get very little in this case should he have to undergo full discovery and investigations.


Exactly in what way did his past influence his behaviour in this case? At no time was the man's behaviour inappropriate. And that's not my opinion; that's what the CEO of United themselves said.

Perhaps we should start going into all of United's criminal history to 'shed a light' on their behaviour? Or the gate staff? Or the security guards? I mean, it would all be relevant and fair game in a civil case?
 
skywaymanaz
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:42 am

Andy33 wrote:
Does anyone know:
(2) why did they call the wrong set of cops? As their employer, the Chicago Department of Aviation, said in a public statement, the airport police/security have no jurisdiction to remove passengers from planes at all, for any reason, ever. The Chicago PD does have jurisdiction, but weren't called.


GlenP wrote:
It appears to be the case that, once you give some people a uniform and a limited amount of authority, they have an irresistible urge to exceed their powers.


This is one of the biggest problems with TSA. Barely competent people given a uniform and authority. When I first read of this story I kept seeing references to it being security that pulled him off the plane and thought that's crazy. Not even TSA is that stupid and at least in this case it definitely wasn't them. I kept thinking it was the police and it was getting misreported as security. If Dept. of Aviation Security/Police don't have this authority was this a "respect my authority" moment for someone?

I read an article online that may have been pulled after backlash blaming this entire incident on Dr. Dao. Said it was a culture problem with the US and claimed to be written from north of the border from some media outlet I'd never heard of and can't remember. I tend to suspect fake news and trying to get a reaction since I couldn't find it an hour later and I looked very hard. The point it was making was we have become so self entitled that we dare authority to take action, then claim we are the victim to cash in afterward. If this was someone drunk or refusing to turn off his cell phone I'd 100% agree with that assessment. We've seen videos of those passengers being removed in the past and the other passengers are usually clapping or cheering. I think perhaps because of that reaction in the past gate agents didn't think there would be any repercussions from having him removed to cover what can only be called an operational error. Regardless of Dr. Dao's motives I tend to suspect some of his injuries may be exaggerated but he clearly was roughed up. His past does a play a part in my skepticism. That said if his motive was to cash in as the article claimed United was foolish to fall for it. If the wrong cops without that authority took matters into their own hands it just got a whole worse. To say that Dr. Dao somehow set out to create and manipulate the situation to cash in though is laughable. I wouldn't have left my seat either except in cuffs. Say what you want about Dr. Dao but he does not seem to have been wearing them.
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:52 am

Another thing, is there no respect for doctors in the US? he clearly said he has to see patients in the morning, would this have happened to a Caucasian doctor as well?

Does anyone know why he was let go that he got back to the plane? how did that even happen?
 
kalvado
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:00 pm

CanadaFair wrote:
Another thing, is there no respect for doctors in the US? he clearly said he has to see patients in the morning, would this have happened to a Caucasian doctor as well?

Does anyone know why he was let go that he got back to the plane? how did that even happen?

I can speculate that once it became clear he needs serious medical attention and not a flight - he was allowed on a plane to collect his carry-ons.
 
bob75013
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:30 pm

I got an e-mail from OM today. I presume it went to all MileagePlus members. I am MileagePlus 1k.

"Dear Mr. (name removed),

I've heard a lot of understandable anger and disappointment from customers and, as one of our most valued customers, I wanted to be sure you heard directly from me.

The awful event that occurred on Flight 3411 has elicited many responses from our customers: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments. For me personally, I'd add shame. No one should ever be mistreated this way.

In addition to offering my profound apologies to the customer forcibly removed, as well as all the passengers aboard that particular flight, I also offer my sincere apology to you for not living up to the values you expect of us.

Our customers' satisfaction must be the center of everything we do and your opinion of our service is the measure of our success. We know we did not measure up, and for that we will redouble our efforts to earn your trust.

This situation has provided a humbling learning experience from which we will take immediate, concrete action. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to make this right so nothing like this ever happens again.

First, United will not ask law enforcement officers to remove passengers from our flights unless it is a matter of safety and security. Second, crews traveling on our aircraft must book at least 60 minutes prior to departure. Third, we will fully review and improve our training programs to ensure our employees are prepared and empowered to put our customers first. Our values will guide everything we do. We'll communicate the results of our review and the concrete actions we will take by April 30.

You expect more from us and I promise we can and will be better. I am committed to putting proof behind our promise.

Thank you for granting us the opportunity to re-earn your trust.

Sincerely,

Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Oscar.Munoz@united.com
 
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CanadaFair
Posts: 987
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:22 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:30 pm

He said just about everything that could be said in that email, very nice.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:41 pm

CanadaFair wrote:
Another thing, is there no respect for doctors in the US? he clearly said he has to see patients in the morning, would this have happened to a Caucasian doctor as well?

Does anyone know why he was let go that he got back to the plane? how did that even happen?


Please stop making it about race.
-Dave
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 2608
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:48 pm

OSUk1d wrote:
Easy to judge someone you don't know from "behind a computer," but you know nothing of my intellect.


It is too bad that you are immune to reality checks.

All of your postings here offer to others a means by which to assess your intellect.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
ytz
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:54 pm

Again. If you believe those cops had unquestionable authority then I'd like to know how you'd react to a police officer asking to search your house without a warrant.
 
gzm
Posts: 239
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:43 pm

Quite unexpectedly, I also received a phone call from OM this afternoon.Here is what he said:
-Dear Gzm, I hear you were a gate agent at (the now defunct) Olympic airlines and I have heard how you managed your gate and that once your company had to pay a small little fine to a customer because of inappropriate behavior on your part,and since I value your opinion, I wanted to talk with you."
Gzm: "What do you want to ask me?I am writing my memoirs right now."
OM: "In addition to offering my apologies on behalf of our customer who almost showed you his genitals, I also offer my sincere apology to you for not living up to the standard you expect from us."
Gzm: "You don't mean the vegetable puree you served to my cousin on the flight New York-Athens last year,do you?"
OM: "We know we did not measure up, and for that we will redouble our efforts to earn your trust."
Gzm: "You mean from now on you will offer two servings of vegetable puree? Now,that's a bargain,if I ever saw one!"
OM: "I mean that our customers' satisfaction must be the centre of everything we do."
Gzm: "The customer is always right in the end, like the lady who had to strip at our gate so she wouldn't be boarded and expelled".
OM: "I mean that your opinion of our service is the measure of our success."
Gzm: "If you had made every effort to take the place (and the customers) of Olympic airlines there would have been no reason for one of those "Gulf airlines" to start such a service between Athens and New York."
OM: "This situation has provided a humbling experience but now it is too late for that."
Gzm: "Don't be sorry.As we say in my small country: "Venice won't miss a needle!"
OM: "As concerns flight UA3411,we will improve our training programs to ensure our employees are prepared and empowered to put our customers first."
Gzm: "I am afraid,you've got it all wrong,sir. Why don't you simply tell your staff to call their supervisor when they need him and if he is hiding, to call the Ramp supervisor instead. Eventually he will show up and he will sort out the problem. It is his duty and that's what he is paid for. Don't expect the gate agent to be a hero!"
OM: "It never crossed my mind. Thank you for granting us the opportunity to regain your trust."
Gzm: "This could be your last chance you know. The last chance of United airlines."
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 20516
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:43 pm

CanadaFair wrote:
Another thing, is there no respect for doctors in the US? he clearly said he has to see patients in the morning, would this have happened to a Caucasian doctor as well?


Oh, we enjoy a lot of respect in this country. I'd say that there are three professions that get general trust: Doctor, Nurse, Priest/Pastor. If you're going to rough up one of the three, you'd better have a good reason for it.

And that's exactly what United learned.

Now, as a physician, I will make a point: I *NEVER* book the last flight of the day out of a place if I have patients to see the next day. If there is only one flight a day, then I make sure that I give myself a "buffer day" in case something goes wrong. So if I'm scheduled to fly back to SFO from CDG on the 21st, I don't schedule any patients until the 23rd just in case there's an issue. In fact, I am going to New York this weekend. My husband and I are flying out together (on UA, no less :o ). But for the trip back I am taking an earlier flight than he (on B6) so that if there is a delay or a cancellation, I will still have enough time to get home so that I can see my patients on Monday morning.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Flighty
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:47 pm

I try to avoid roughing up judges too. :D
 
VC10er
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:52 pm

bob75013 wrote:
I got an e-mail from OM today. I presume it went to all MileagePlus members. I am MileagePlus 1k.

"Dear Mr. (name removed),

I've heard a lot of understandable anger and disappointment from customers and, as one of our most valued customers, I wanted to be sure you heard directly from me.

The awful event that occurred on Flight 3411 has elicited many responses from our customers: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments. For me personally, I'd add shame. No one should ever be mistreated this way.

In addition to offering my profound apologies to the customer forcibly removed, as well as all the passengers aboard that particular flight, I also offer my sincere apology to you for not living up to the values you expect of us.

Our customers' satisfaction must be the center of everything we do and your opinion of our service is the measure of our success. We know we did not measure up, and for that we will redouble our efforts to earn your trust.

This situation has provided a humbling learning experience from which we will take immediate, concrete action. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to make this right so nothing like this ever happens again.

First, United will not ask law enforcement officers to remove passengers from our flights unless it is a matter of safety and security. Second, crews traveling on our aircraft must book at least 60 minutes prior to departure. Third, we will fully review and improve our training programs to ensure our employees are prepared and empowered to put our customers first. Our values will guide everything we do. We'll communicate the results of our review and the concrete actions we will take by April 30.

You expect more from us and I promise we can and will be better. I am committed to putting proof behind our promise.

Thank you for granting us the opportunity to re-earn your trust.

Sincerely,

Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Oscar.Munoz@united.com


I got the same email and I am 1k too. It was a great note and said ALL the right things. However, there was a mistake and I emailed OM at his email he provided at the bottom. IT DID NOT GO TO EVERY MileagePlus MEMBER!

I forwarded that email from Mr Munoz to my friend in SF who is currently silver, but who has been 1k in previous years. He did not get the email and he was rightfully livid. United needs to send a note like that to their elite fliers, but almost more importantly OM needs to send it to ALL MP members, even someone who hasn't flown UA for years but still has a live account. I sent a note saying: that by sending and email only to "elite-status" fliers like me totally misses the point. I don't think the 1k's and GS's of the world are screaming bloody murder on the internet, it's the average people who fly once or twice a year and who also have a lot of choice. Also, it reaffirms the reputation United has of caring about the big spenders but treat everyone else like they are not worth their time.

So, UNITED, if your still reading (what may be the longest thread in airliners.net history), take note and please have Mr Munoz send a similar email to everyone in your database, which must be tens of millions of people.
I prefer flying over the vacation itself! I go on business trips just so I can fly!
 
winginit
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Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:55 pm

VC10er wrote:
I forwarded that email from Mr Munoz to my friend in SF who is currently silver, but who has been 1k in previous years. He did not get the email and he was rightfully livid.


'livid' over not receiving a standardized, mass-distributed email from a large corporation? really?
 
TransGlobalGold
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:40 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:14 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
CanadaFair wrote:
Another thing, is there no respect for doctors in the US? he clearly said he has to see patients in the morning, would this have happened to a Caucasian doctor as well?

Does anyone know why he was let go that he got back to the plane? how did that even happen?


Please stop making it about race.


I think race is valid. If anyone has been paying attention what has happened in this nation over the last decade, if you aren't white, you get more scrutiny than you probably should.
 
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cpd
Posts: 5026
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:23 pm

VC10er wrote:
However, there was a mistake and I emailed OM at his email he provided at the bottom. IT DID NOT GO TO EVERY MileagePlus MEMBER!

I forwarded that email from Mr Munoz to my friend in SF who is currently silver, but who has been 1k in previous years. He did not get the email and he was rightfully livid.


Mailing lists are not infallible. For someone to be livid about not getting a mass-mailout from a standard mail-marketing program is taking things a little bit too far.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:31 pm

bob75013 wrote:
I got an e-mail from OM today. I presume it went to all MileagePlus members. I am MileagePlus 1k.

"Dear Mr. (name removed),

I've heard a lot of understandable anger and disappointment from customers and, as one of our most valued customers, I wanted to be sure you heard directly from me.

The awful event that occurred on Flight 3411 has elicited many responses from our customers: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments. For me personally, I'd add shame. No one should ever be mistreated this way.

In addition to offering my profound apologies to the customer forcibly removed, as well as all the passengers aboard that particular flight, I also offer my sincere apology to you for not living up to the values you expect of us.

Our customers' satisfaction must be the center of everything we do and your opinion of our service is the measure of our success. We know we did not measure up, and for that we will redouble our efforts to earn your trust.

This situation has provided a humbling learning experience from which we will take immediate, concrete action. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to make this right so nothing like this ever happens again.

First, United will not ask law enforcement officers to remove passengers from our flights unless it is a matter of safety and security. Second, crews traveling on our aircraft must book at least 60 minutes prior to departure. Third, we will fully review and improve our training programs to ensure our employees are prepared and empowered to put our customers first. Our values will guide everything we do. We'll communicate the results of our review and the concrete actions we will take by April 30.

You expect more from us and I promise we can and will be better. I am committed to putting proof behind our promise.

Thank you for granting us the opportunity to re-earn your trust.

Sincerely,

Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Oscar.Munoz@united.com



This is all nice but what about extending more leeway, more discretion to gate agents and supervisors to offer more of an incentive to accept a VDB before it has to get to a IDB at the gate? So, well into the 2nd week of coverage and only one change, wow. Very underwhelming Oscar. :roll:
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 2608
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:29 am

jumbojet wrote:
So, well into the 2nd week of coverage and only one change, wow. Very underwhelming Oscar. :roll:


You can't wait until April 30th for the expanded, definitive statement?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:46 am

ytz wrote:
Again. If you believe those cops had unquestionable authority then I'd like to know how you'd react to a police officer asking to search your house without a warrant.



Wow, apples and oranges.
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:48 am

BobPatterson wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
Easy to judge someone you don't know from "behind a computer," but you know nothing of my intellect.


It is too bad that you are immune to reality checks.

All of your postings here offer to others a means by which to assess your intellect.



Yet I've been accused of saying the same thing over and over. So from one thought you can assess my intellect? It's too bad you are immune to intelligence.
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:55 am

ikramerica wrote:
I asked a friend this question:

What if the headline read:

"Professional poker player/convicted drug dealer dragged from plane."

Would people have a different opinion?

I mean, that's also an accurate description of the man.

We don't know if it's an accurate description but let's assume for a moment that it is. Then I'd say, yes, people would have a different opinion because that (clickbait-y) headline makes it sound like the police had an arrest warrant out for him and he was dragged from the plane BECAUSE of his drug dealing convictions, which obviously had nothing to do with this incident at all.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 160
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:06 am

OSUK1D,

If you are in possession of such a fine intellect, how is it you cannot grasp the contradictions and disconnects between your postings and the admission of facts by UAL, its CEO, the ORD Dept of Aviation and the mayor of Chicago all attesting to UA's and the police involved acting unlawfully and in conflict with the Contract of Carriage? This isn't cognitive dissonce on your part, it's willful ignorance.

You continue to bang on about following orders without any appreciation that orders must be lawful. "Following orders" as a defense ended in Nuremberg.

GF
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 2608
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:17 am

OSUk1d wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
Easy to judge someone you don't know from "behind a computer," but you know nothing of my intellect.


All of your postings here offer to others a means by which to assess your intellect.


Yet I've been accused of saying the same thing over and over. So from one thought you can assess my intellect?


A better response than perhaps mine will be is by GalaxyFlyer :

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
OSUK1D,

If you are in possession of such a fine intellect, how is it you cannot grasp the contradictions and disconnects between your postings and the admission of facts by UAL, its CEO, the ORD Dept of Aviation and the mayor of Chicago all attesting to UA's and the police involved acting unlawfully and in conflict with the Contract of Carriage? This isn't cognitive dissonce on your part, it's willful ignorance.

You continue to bang on about following orders without any appreciation that orders must be lawful. "Following orders" as a defense ended in Nuremberg.

GF


You've already responded to the matter of United and Mr. Muñoz acknowledging fault by stating that the admission was "to appease social warriors".

In other words, you refuse to accept reasoned opinions that wrong was done to Dr. Dao. Further, you have made several claims to the effect that Dr. Dao was responsible for his own injuries.

You seem surprised by the idea that a judge might find portions of a contract of carriage to be invalid.

You claim extensive experience in dealing with the airline public, 98% of whom you judge to be incredibly stupid. One must assume that by this you mean that you find yourself to be intellectually superior to at least 98% of the general population. Are you by any chance a member of Mensa?

You have made 50 posts in the this thread (I went back and read all of them again, a dismal job) and, while you have repeated yourself a number of times, you have really commented on more than a dozen topics. This is more than enough for a reasoning person to get a picture of your intellect, your inflexibility, and your denial of reason.

You should not be surprised that others here seem to agree with this general assessment.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
VC10er
Posts: 2787
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:55 am

cpd wrote:
VC10er wrote:
However, there was a mistake and I emailed OM at his email he provided at the bottom. IT DID NOT GO TO EVERY MileagePlus MEMBER!

I forwarded that email from Mr Munoz to my friend in SF who is currently silver, but who has been 1k in previous years. He did not get the email and he was rightfully livid.


Mailing lists are not infallible. For someone to be livid about not getting a mass-mailout from a standard mail-marketing program is taking things a little bit too far.


Jeez, sorry for using the word "livid"... my dear friend of 35 years is one of the smartest, kindest, generous and creative souls I know. He totally understands that the note is just a mass-mailing. He is also in the same business as I am and we both understand strategic brand management and that sending such a note to ONLY to elite fliers was a mistake. So, allow me to rephrase: he was annoyed in a measured way that United didn't send that well written note from "Oscar" to every UA customer as it appears to under value ALL the people like him: A San Francisco resident of 25 years who flies UA often because it is often unavoidable given where he lives- although not often enough to earn a high status. And I believe he was right to be annoyed because he has spent a lot on UA over the past 25 years. I am sure he also forgot about it 3 minutes after we discussed it.

In my opinion that mass email is just ONE action (out of many actions that should happen) that Oscar and United should do, and it should have gone to everyone in their database. My friend gets many UA emails, mostly promotional ones, so while it may have been a computer glitch in his case, it seems unlikely. It is in the court of GLOBAL pubic opinion that has judged that United was at fault for a truly horrible thing. Just reaching out to the elites (if that is what they decided to do) was a mistake in an effort to demonstrate true humility and regret for what happened.
I prefer flying over the vacation itself! I go on business trips just so I can fly!
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 54
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:57 am

VC10er wrote:
...and it should have gone to everyone in their database.


I agree, it is hardly a significant additional overhead to to send out a larger bulk mailing, they could have simply prioritised certain groups if they wanted to make them feel more important.

It is a fairly trivial oversight, but one that I can appreciate may make their non-elite customer base feel undervalued, which is obviously a culture issue that the company are going to be working hard to rectify. Given that an equal and opposite reaction is going to be required to counter the effect that this event is having on UAs public image, they should really be thinking very carefully about every little response. I wonder who does their PR and if they will still be doing it next month?!
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4625
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:03 am

OSUk1d,

Hope you are aware of US anti-astroturning laws. A fanboy can defend an entity to their heart's content, but anyone with a relationship with the entity cannot do the same anonymously on the internet.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 160
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

OSUK1D,

Of course I'm aware of that, but loads of FACTS prove UA's admission of wrong is correct. Keep diggin'-- it's a long ways to China.

GF
 
VC10er
Posts: 2787
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:59 pm

A GOOD customer care story from UNITED: So, I wrote a note to Mr Munoz after getting his mass-email note as it included his email address. I told him that I have had well over 25 years of wonderful memories flying United and it was very painful for me to see those images also. I also said I thought he was doing a great job and that since he took over and the "positivity" he created was palpable and that I think if United sticks to it's new values and promises, that United can overcome this very unfortunate situation. However I went on to say that sending that note just to someone like me, a 1k and 3 million lifetime miler, that it was NOT me who was cutting up my 1k card, it is the tens of millions of people who have little or no status that are swearing off United and that by sending that note just to just 1k's and Global Services members ONLY underscores what so many people believe: "United under values their customers"...these people aren't going to write in as I just did, they will simply just never chose United again. I recommended that Oscar email EVERYONE in their database around the globe and in their local languages.
SO: I just got a LIVE phone call from human being at United representative profusely thanking me for my note and my loyalty and kind words. I told her I really appreciated the call and not some pre-written email response. But I also said "may I reiterate what I said in my note" I told her the story of my friend who was put off by the fact as a Silver card holder he didn't get an email like mine...and felt it was a clear signal that it is true: United only cares about customers who spend big bucks. She agreed with me, thanked me for my candor and said that United should indeed do more than just answer the tens of thousands of angry emails, and she would take my suggestion up directly with Mr Munoz (I assume if she had access to him, she was no small potato at UA). All that aside, I was indeed touched that they made the effort to pick up the phone and call me and that an emphatic human being speaking to another is great brand behavior. It's what your local dry cleaner would do, it's what I would do in my business and kudos for them for not just sending some sort of email platitude.
I prefer flying over the vacation itself! I go on business trips just so I can fly!
 
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GlenP
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:36 pm

Good to hear, and thanks for sharing the details of what happened.

If, as your report would seem to indicate, the airline has had something of a wake up call, following this incident, and is not only prepared to learn, but to act upon the lessons learned, that is actually a positive sign.

As mentioned up thread, the likelihood of me flying UA, or for that matter any US carrier, in the near future is slim. Even if I was to fly to that side of the pond it would most likely be on AC metal; being a rather loyal Star customer, and MS not being willing to sell me a ticket to visit the family via CAI, but if, this is a sign of a rethink on customer service and care by UA, it might just make me think about utilising them and routing via a US airport.
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
UAL747422
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:44 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:51 pm

exunited wrote:
The flight was by Republic Airlines, not United mainline but then nobody would take the click bait if the headlines said Republic now would they?


Yes thank you! Someone who actually listens. It was not UA crew or pilots. The media just jumped to a conclusion because the plane said "United" on it. They gotta look at the real facts.
"I think we could build a better one" -William Boeing
 
727LOVER
Posts: 7209
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:35 am

UAL747422 wrote:
exunited wrote:
The flight was by Republic Airlines, not United mainline but then nobody would take the click bait if the headlines said Republic now would they?


Yes thank you! Someone who actually listens. It was not UA crew or pilots. The media just jumped to a conclusion because the plane said "United" on it. They gotta look at the real facts.


This was stated in like post #4 or 5

Everyone on here knows it,....and it certainly wasn't worth posting a separate thread.

Who apologized? CEO of Republic or CEO of United?

My point is...10 days later...why be focused on this?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 1835
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:50 am

UAL747422 wrote:
exunited wrote:
The flight was by Republic Airlines, not United mainline but then nobody would take the click bait if the headlines said Republic now would they?


Yes thank you! Someone who actually listens. It was not UA crew or pilots. The media just jumped to a conclusion because the plane said "United" on it. They gotta look at the real facts.


That lame excuse doesn't cut it. Its UA''s fault, plain and simple. Its like when DL fanboys broadcast on here what a great job DL does with cancel free days, the first thing the haters bring up are its regional carriers. Same theory applies here. It says United on the plane, on the boarding pass and the flight was booked on UA.bomb and passengers most likely boarded at a gate that said United on it. United takes the full blame here. But if it helps you to sleep at night to point the blame at Republic, then knock yourself out
Last edited by jumbojet on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:12 am

Oh yeah, another thing. The VDB and IDB policy, is it Republics or that of UA?
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 2608
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:52 am

Now, now, let's be nice to UAL747422.

Since he just became a member he hasn't had time to read 2,000 posts.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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neutrino
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:03 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Now, now, let's be nice to UAL747422.

Since he just became a member he hasn't had time to read 2,000 posts.

He could very well have read them all as a lurker and just registered to let off his accumulated steam.
Either way, why let the truth cloud his misguided Alternative Facts. Leave him to his devices.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
vrbarreto
Posts: 205
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:35 am

DocLightning wrote:
CanadaFair wrote:
Another thing, is there no respect for doctors in the US? he clearly said he has to see patients in the morning, would this have happened to a Caucasian doctor as well?


Oh, we enjoy a lot of respect in this country. I'd say that there are three professions that get general trust: Doctor, Nurse, Priest/Pastor. If you're going to rough up one of the three, you'd better have a good reason for it.

And that's exactly what United learned.

Now, as a physician, I will make a point: I *NEVER* book the last flight of the day out of a place if I have patients to see the next day. If there is only one flight a day, then I make sure that I give myself a "buffer day" in case something goes wrong. So if I'm scheduled to fly back to SFO from CDG on the 21st, I don't schedule any patients until the 23rd just in case there's an issue. In fact, I am going to New York this weekend. My husband and I are flying out together (on UA, no less :o ). But for the trip back I am taking an earlier flight than he (on B6) so that if there is a delay or a cancellation, I will still have enough time to get home so that I can see my patients on Monday morning.


Weren't there a number of flights out to his or close to his destination after the United one but he was never offered the option.. Only the vouchers and a flight the next day?

Glad that doctors still have respect in some countries. In the UK they are regularly verbally abused by patients who 'know their rights'
 
Andy33
Posts: 1777
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:14 am

UAL747422 wrote:
exunited wrote:
The flight was by Republic Airlines, not United mainline but then nobody would take the click bait if the headlines said Republic now would they?


Yes thank you! Someone who actually listens. It was not UA crew or pilots. The media just jumped to a conclusion because the plane said "United" on it. They gotta look at the real facts.


Telling the media they "gotta" do something is usually a recipe for them doing the opposite. And what real facts should they look at?
United sells the tickets under their conditions of carriage and runs the reservation system. United sets the timetable and specifies the size of plane to be used. United provides the gate agents at ORD. Republic provided the plane and flight crew for UA3411, and the deadheading crew members worked for Republic.
Oscar Munoz has promised the results of his investigation into what went wrong by 30 April, along with what should be done to stop it happening again. Yet you already know that absolutely everything that happened was Republic's fault, and United is entirely innocent. You really ought to let Oscar know, you'll save his investigators a lot of time. You might even get promoted if you work for United. Of course unless you work for United or Republic you can't possibly know these key facts that the rest of us won't know either until 30 April:
How long before departure did Republic tell United that they needed to send 4 deadheading crew members on UA3411?
Did this message go directly to the gate or via another department - and if via another department, how long did it take to tell the gate?
What time did the deadheading crew members turn up at the gate?
Why did the gate agents allow Dr Dao to pass the gate and seat himself on the plane if he'd been denied boarding at that point?
Are United gate agents under instructions not to transfer VDB or IDB passengers to flights by other airlines?
Were any United supervisors or managers called when it became clear that there wouldn't be enough volunteers for denied boarding?
If so, what did they say or do?
Who called the cops, the United gate staff or the Republic flight crew?
Why did whoever called them manage to call the Aviation Department Security/Police (who have no authority to remove passengers from planes for any reason and aren't trained to do so) instead of the Chicago PD, who do have authority under specified circumstances?
I certainly don't know the answers to these questions. If you do, please tell!
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:22 pm

ikramerica wrote:
I asked a friend this question:

What if the headline read:

"Professional poker player/convicted drug dealer dragged from plane."

Would people have a different opinion?

I mean, that's also an accurate description of the man.


As long as the headline didn't read:

"Immigrant professional poker player/convicted drug dealer dragged from plane"

Because, in the court of public opinion these days, immigrants, legal or otherwise, seen have a special standing that even regular American citizens do not enjoy, depending on which lower court judge is looking at your case... :blockhead:
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:27 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Any attempt to shed light on why this man behaved the way he did is dismissed, but especially in a civil case, it's all relevant and fair game. He is likely to get very little in this case should he have to undergo full discovery and investigations.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:31 pm

Andy33 wrote:
Does anyone know:
(1) who called the cops - was it the United gate agents or the Republic flight crew?
(2) why did they call the wrong set of cops? As their employer, the Chicago Department of Aviation, said in a public statement, the airport police/security have no jurisdiction to remove passengers from planes at all, for any reason, ever. The Chicago PD does have jurisdiction, but weren't called.
(3) why, since they must have known they had no jurisdiction, did the airport police/security go on board and forcibly remove Dr Dao?
(4) would the Chicago PD (had they been called) have insisted on investigating the circumstances before forcibly removing Dr Dao, which would cause the flight to be delayed?


Well, hopefully, UA's thorough internal investigation will shed light on all of that. The CEO said it would be completed by the end of this month. But since they're in litigation, who knows when any of it will be made available to the public....
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:37 pm

ytz wrote:
Again. If you believe those cops had unquestionable authority then I'd like to know how you'd react to a police officer asking to search your house without a warrant.


Again...

Image

:smile:
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 20516
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:12 pm

vrbarreto wrote:
Glad that doctors still have respect in some countries. In the UK they are regularly verbally abused by patients who 'know their rights'


As are we. And as much as our industry has things to learn about safety from the aviation industry, the aviation industry could learn a thing or two about customer service from ours.

See, we're bound by oath to take excellent care of our patients. That includes the drunk and violent ones, the drunk (or mentally ill) and gropey ones, the angry ones, the stinky ones (we get a lot of those, and it's hard to take care of patients who stink), the entitled ones, the arrogant ones, and the unconscious ones. When someone is violent, of course we must use violent force to restrain them. We have hospital security and yet our first step is always to try to de-escalate a situation.

My patients are not always sweet and grateful and polite. But I am a professional and I hold myself and my staff to the highest standards of professionalism. Do l like all my patients? Of course not! But they must never, ever know that. And of course, your most difficult patients never, ever no-show. But they come to me for a reason, and so we become great actors and actresses and we work around ridiculous government and hospital policies and we take care of the patients anyway because that's what we do.

We're not superhuman, we're just dedicated. Perhaps it's time that people working in the aviation industry adopted a similar culture.

Can't handle the heat? Get out of the kitchen.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
coairman
Posts: 130
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:46 am

Absolutely.....right on target! The Dr. is not your average Dr.
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
c933103
Posts: 1211
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:18 am

ikramerica wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
I asked a friend this question:

What if the headline read:

"Professional poker player/convicted drug dealer dragged from plane."

Would people have a different opinion?

I mean, that's also an accurate description of the man.


IIRC this was discredited.

The person that you are talking about is a different individual with the same name but not this person.

No, it wasn't. It was called racist to bring it up, told to us by certain opinion outlets that even if true, his past should have no bearing on the incident etc. and some tried to immediately claim it was a different person.

But there is no evidence that there are two Dr Daos. The claims that there are two Dr Daos is the fake news. There is but one in this case. Despite being convicted of the crimes, he told the medical board that he didn't pay for sex and wasn't paid for the drugs he prescribed, but instead had a debt reduced by having sex (there is no difference).

The point is, there is a NARRATIVE about this story that is one sided. That's why I posed the question. Much of our news isn't truth, it's a narrative that selectively provides facts in order to create an opionion.

any attempt to shed light on why this man behaved the way he did is dismissed, but especially in a civil case, it's all relevant and fair game. He is likely to get very little in this case should he have to undergo full discovery and investigations.


You mean airline shall commit a background check on people and drop professional poker players before dropping doctors?

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