Cerecl
Posts: 462
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:17 pm

seahawk wrote:
Should it not be up to the 2 parties signing a contract how such issues are handled? Maybe I want to take the risk of being removed for operational reasons in return for a cheaper ticket on some flights and willing to pay extra for the guarantee to not be removed on others. The government needs to keep its hand out of contract made between 2 private parties. They only should force airlines to offer an optional protection against overbooking, nothing more.

The government (or some other sort of independent/impartial organisation) needs to get involved if one party holds all the cards. There are still members on this thread arguing that Airlines can remove passenger whenever they decide to. How can passengers stand up for themselves when the airlines tell them "get off or we will call police/security to remove you"? Not everyone has the time/energy/financial resource to hire a lawyer and go through the legal process to defend their right after they have been removed from a flight inappropriately.

You proposal of cheaper ticket for "non-secure" ticket has some issues in real life 1. When passenger book flights, via different means, it is almost certain that some of them will not be informed about the non-secure nature of the ticket. 2. This kind of tickets will likely create a false impression of inferiority-will ground agents try as hard to accommodate and reschedule them? 3. What stops airlines from deliberately overbooking flight based on the number of non-secure tickets sold so that they shaft these passengers onto less popular time/less convenient (e.g. one stop rather than direct routes)?
Finally-one shouldn't need to pay extra to guarantee a place on a flight-this is what the ticket is for! Airlines should not be enabled/empowered by any means to charge extra for delivering what they are meant to.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:21 pm

seahawk wrote:
Should it not be up to the 2 parties signing a contract how such issues are handled? Maybe I want to take the risk of being removed for operational reasons in return for a cheaper ticket on some flights and willing to pay extra for the guarantee to not be removed on others. The government needs to keep its hand out of contract made between 2 private parties. They only should force airlines to offer an optional protection against overbooking, nothing more.


So, why one party called the law enforcement to help them violate the contract they signed. Passenger was on the phone with UA asking them to honor the contract. He didn't get a third party involved.

Are you looking for opportunities to milk this issue and make more money by selling the optional service?
 
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enilria
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:29 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Should it not be up to the 2 parties signing a contract how such issues are handled? Maybe I want to take the risk of being removed for operational reasons in return for a cheaper ticket on some flights and willing to pay extra for the guarantee to not be removed on others. The government needs to keep its hand out of contract made between 2 private parties. They only should force airlines to offer an optional protection against overbooking, nothing more.


So, why one party called the law enforcement to help them violate the contract they signed. Passenger was on the phone with UA asking them to honor the contract. He didn't get a third party involved.

Are you looking for opportunities to milk this issue and make more money by selling the optional service?

The airlines are already free to sell standby tickets and have done so in the past. The reality is once again economic. When passengers are knowingly buying a ticket that does not reasonably guarantee that they will make it where they are going, the price they are willing to pay for that ticket goes to a low level, so the airlines want the ability to sell what appears to be a "guaranteed" ticket, but have it not really be. That's part of the questionable legality of overbooking, although in this actual case there was no real overbooking. They just had what we are told was an unscheduled crew movement. How that is dealt with is thornier, but it is still a problem for the airline to solve as they caused it.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:31 pm

Blimpie wrote:
Again, they have whatever Illinois calls POST certification. They are not sworn police officers. I'm not sure at this is hard or why it matters. They are most certainly much better qualified than your typical security guard.

It is a bit confusing however, since in that Chicago Tribune article which was referenced up-thread, they state that they are NOT members of the Chicago Police Department, but they also call themselves aviation police. In addition, the answer to the question regarding if they are allowed to be armed, they state this:

So, that makes it seem that they must be police officers in order to be part of the aviation police. I'm not sure what that means. Are they police officers associated with other departments and just work as aviation police as a side job? There are full time positions, so what about those officers?


It actually sounds more like they are what is referred to as "special police" similar to the railroads. (special police, or at least in Maryland, are state sworn LEO's with limited enforcement and jurisdictional constraints) I think it goes to reason that if their department as the word "police" in it, that they would have been sworn officers to some degree. And, to the general layman, someone walking in to an aircraft brandishing the word "police" on their uniform, would surmise they are in fact some form of LEO.


Officials in Chicago are looking at why the three officers -- all now placed on administrative leave -- were on the plane in the first place,

The officers -- who are unarmed and meant to back up local law enforcement -- were called by airline employees after the passenger, David Dao, refused to give up his seat for crew that needed to be re-positioned for other flights.

But Jeff Redding, who is in charge of safety and security at the Chicago Department of Aviation, which operates O'Hare International Airport, says airport security officers are not supposed to respond to such calls.

"If it is a customer service-related incident, then you don't need to board the plane at all," Redding told a group of Chicago city council members on Thursday.

The official however could not immediately say how his officers were instructed about the use of force.

----------------------------------

The video shows 33 seconds in, the security guards wearing jackets with "Police" on the back. If they weren't Police, then this is another wrinkle for Dao's lawyers to incorporate in their suit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dASATLLvGRM
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
CanadaFair
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:40 pm

I'm so envious of Dr. Dao's lawyers right now.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:07 pm

CanadaFair wrote:
I'm so envious of Dr. Dao's lawyers right now.


Yep, that pretty much sums it up 95% of the posters on this thread. On the other hand the Dr. may get some $$ for his experience but he still has to live the fact that in his past he traded drugs for sex and those kind of drugs are killing thousands here in the US. So who would want to be? Think that over carefully...

UAL/Republic just want this to go away but in a real court of law instead of the court of public opinion things might not turn out the way he hopes.
 
WNbob
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:12 pm

CanadaFair wrote:
I'm so envious of Dr. Dao's lawyers right now.

This guy doesn't need the fame or fortune. He's old hat at this and had won Billion-dollars case before.

What am curious is, he said Dr. Dao is going be the Rosa Park for the airlines.... but history shown airlines always settle cases like this to make the problem go away without further embarrassment. Would had Rosa Park accepted a settlement? Would Dr. Dao refuse a few millions?
 
Virtual737
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:24 pm

This drivel: http://asiajack.news/2017/04/15/sort-ma ... hty-child/ has been posted on a news site (I use that term loosely) today.

Some highlights include:

The title: What sort of man needs to be dragged from an aircraft like a naughty child?
The character assassination being approximately 50% of the content.
"Interestingly, and relevant to the United incident, one doctor assessing Dao’s case said he had interpersonal problems, noting ‘he would unilaterally choose to do his own thing.’"
"Fake outrage"
"What sort of person, having been told a flight was over-booked and they would need to be re-scheduled (with the offer of a cash compensation), would then charge past a boarding gate, run onto an aircraft, sit himself down and then refuse to move, needing to be dragged off like a disruptive child."
"He hasn’t got any patients."

The accuracy of the content, nearly a week after the incident, is atrocious.
 
GlenP
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:25 pm

BravoOne wrote:
CanadaFair wrote:
I'm so envious of Dr. Dao's lawyers right now.


Yep, that pretty much sums it up 95% of the posters on this thread. On the other hand the Dr. may get some $$ for his experience but he still has to live the fact that in his past he traded drugs for sex and those kind of drugs are killing thousands here in the US. So who would want to be? Think that over carefully...

UAL/Republic just want this to go away but in a real court of law instead of the court of public opinion things might not turn out the way he hopes.


Due to the debate regarding whether there is one or 2 Dr Daos, it isn't really best to keep repeating these allegations might not be the best thing to do.

If they do relate to a different Dr Dao, at best you are digging an even deeper hole for the airline to get out of and at worst they could be classed as libelous.
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
WNbob
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:36 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
But Jeff Redding, who is in charge of safety and security at the Chicago Department of Aviation, which operates O'Hare International Airport, says airport security officers are not supposed to respond to such calls.

Yep, that's the City distancing themselves from United, and they are right, this is not law enforcement action, this is a dumb airline doing their jobs badly. Why took the City this long to realize? actually I know the answer, they cuddled the carriers as paid tenants. This admission though is gonna cost the City a chunk of change.
 
bmacleod
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:25 pm

As Dr Dao's lawyer have made statements saying Dr. Dao's ordeal was worse than fleeing Vietnam well..

This picture shows American hostility towards Vietnamese Americans is nothing new...

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2193613.1429655588!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/vietnam-anniversary.jpg

Also CEO Oscar Munoz declaration "This will never happen again...."

How many times have we heard that?

Isn't one time damaging enough?
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
WNbob
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:30 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Finally-one shouldn't need to pay extra to guarantee a place on a flight-this is what the ticket is for! Airlines should not be enabled/empowered by any means to charge extra for delivering what they are meant to.

You are arguing against a practice that's been in place for decades, perhaps it needs changing but our society would label that anti-capitalistic. This happened before, it just that with everyone owning a smartphone camera, it feels like new and extra-outrageous but it's for the better. United just announced they won't book working employees last minute and giving them 1 hour cut-off, will see. The pilots/flight attendant unions should have this spelled out in their contracts, they don't want to be yo-yo around the last minute either.

The travelling public should be more aware of overbooking, even before this incident. I'd say from 5 years back, air carriers have consolidated many unprofitable routes and therefore these days, planes are often full than not, and the chances for overbooking have increased. Frequent flyers have taken notice of this and are showing up. Missing a flight these days can have dire consequences because everything is full and even if the airline doesn't charge you for flying standby you maybe waiting in the airport for hours and worse, not getting out the same day at all. ALWAYS OBTAIN A BOARDING PASS ONLINE THE DAY BEFORE folks, with your assigned seat or boarding priority clearly assigned, otherwise that's a huge red flag and plan to arrive at the airport extra-extra early to deal with this.

Carriers can do better by (1)Not booking working employees the last minute, (2)Can't forcibly pull if already boarded, DUH! (3)Increase compensation like what Delta is doing, KUDOS. (4)Don't overbook flights during heavy holidays periods, people going on vacations, cruises have paid reservations for hotels, cars blah-blah is CRAP to be told, the whole family, sorry! is CRAP OK?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:19 pm

seahawk wrote:
More rules that will make tickets more expensive and help terrorists and other criminals. The simple solution is to make it optional to have an overbooking protection with your ticket or not. If you buy a cheap basic fare it won´t be included.

So you are saying rules will make tickets more expensive, and as a solution you are suggesting adding a charge that will make tickets more expensive? As someone previously noted even if you assumed the maximum cost (I believe the poster used (Delta's new max amount of $9950) used for all passengers that have been bumped, it would only add 5% to the ticket cost. Not that I think that is what should be done.

BravoOne wrote:
Yep, that pretty much sums it up 95% of the posters on this thread. On the other hand the Dr. may get some $$ for his experience but he still has to live the fact that in his past he traded drugs for sex and those kind of drugs are killing thousands here in the US. So who would want to be? Think that over carefully...

UAL/Republic just want this to go away but in a real court of law instead of the court of public opinion things might not turn out the way he hopes.

Yes, United is in a terrible situation and the cost to address what has happened to Dr. Dao just increases with the fact that their actions lead to extreme damage to the Dr.'s public situation, exposing him to such scrutiny. Sure whatever his life is has been done by him but most everyone lives in obscurity and offenses are limited in publicity. It is why many do not want or like the scrutiny most "public figures" endure. That the Dr. has been exposed to such public scrutiny is not right.

WNbob wrote:
What am curious is, he said Dr. Dao is going be the Rosa Park for the airlines....

He did not say that, in fact he actually said that Dr. Dao was NOT that.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Flighty
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:47 pm

WNbob wrote:
You are arguing against a practice that's been in place for decades, perhaps it needs changing but our society would label that anti-capitalistic. This happened before, it just that with everyone owning a smartphone camera, it feels like new and extra-outrageous but it's for the better.

....
The travelling public should be more aware of overbooking...


Yeah, there is an automatic assumption that everything airlines are doing is inexcusable and evil, and dumb. Actually, there was a good, customer service reason why that crew needed to travel.

But otherwise, UAL's operation is well considered, and many new ideas have been tried since the 1950s, and if successful, they were implemented.

I understand the emotions about a guy bleeding, and it's terrible. But I don't understand how we are going to change the airline industry without making it more inefficient and overall worse for customers.

The only changes likely to occur, or that ought to occur, are a couple of small details in DB procedure. That will fix this issue.
 
kalvado
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:07 pm

Flighty wrote:
WNbob wrote:
You are arguing against a practice that's been in place for decades, perhaps it needs changing but our society would label that anti-capitalistic. This happened before, it just that with everyone owning a smartphone camera, it feels like new and extra-outrageous but it's for the better.

....
The travelling public should be more aware of overbooking...


Yeah, there is an automatic assumption that everything airlines are doing is inexcusable and evil, and dumb. Actually, there was a good, customer service reason why that crew needed to travel.

But otherwise, UAL's operation is well considered, and many new ideas have been tried since the 1950s, and if successful, they were implemented.

I understand the emotions about a guy bleeding, and it's terrible. But I don't understand how we are going to change the airline industry without making it more inefficient and overall worse for customers.

The only changes likely to occur, or that ought to occur, are a couple of small details in DB procedure. That will fix this issue.

What should happen is not a small change in procedure - especially in situation when procedure was likely violated, but some ideas about role of airline must change.
Gate agent is not god. Pilot is not an angel. FA is not archangel. They are just employees of some company, and I, as a pax, hold contract with their employer. Nothing more, nothing less.
That certainly warrants a bit of mutual - yes, I said MUTUAL - respect.
As for example of such respect:
I had some trees removed in my backyard last week. Contractors left backyard cleaner than it was before their equipment rolled in - chips removed, brush removed, lawn nice and clean.. Did I have to pay more to make sure ALL chips and brushes are gone? Well, apparently customer pays for everything. Is that assumed to be standard for the contract?.... Some airline folks may be pressurized - but yes. No extra fees for equipment positioning, lawn cleanup and truck haul fees...
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:20 pm

Flighty wrote:
I understand the emotions about a guy bleeding, and it's terrible. But I don't understand how we are going to change the airline industry without making it more inefficient and overall worse for customers.

The only changes likely to occur, or that ought to occur, are a couple of small details in DB procedure. That will fix this issue.

My two comments on this are: "A guy bleeding" is not just terrible, it is also completely unacceptable in any situation like this. It cannot be OK or allowed (not that it won't ever happen again). And that I think small changes as you note, small though they be, will be both fully effective and will not make things inefficient or worse, and in fact will make the industry more efficient and better for the customer.

There is always the risk of overreaction and sadly the industry has only itself to blame (but businesses and industries are almost always notoriously selfish and self interested, creating a feedback loop "we've always done this so lets keep doing it. And now lets do this one thing more..." that reinforces taking things further until a forced correction or self-correction occurs). I truly hope that if something is mandated it is a relatively small change, one that essentially allows only VDB to be used when there is no safety of flight issue (and removes the power to classify someone as a risk to safety of flight simply for not agreeing with crew direction when there is no active danger to the flight. I realize this is a somewhat trickier one).

There is nothing really that wrong with over-booking and bumping as long as an airline fully pays the value needed to the customer for that (and that is what the customer is willing to accept). And here's a cute twist... If the airline feels the amount demanded and paid is usurious, then they can take the passenger to court... (But I don't want this or think it is what will happen.)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
BravoOne
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:02 pm

 
CanadaFair
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:17 pm

BravoOne wrote:


In all fairness he was not beaten as that article claims.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:35 pm

CanadaFair wrote:
In all fairness he was not beaten as that article claims.


In all honesty, I'd consider getting concussion, a broken nose and losing two teeth a pretty good beating. :fight:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:37 pm

There seem to be number of posters who persist in wilfully misunderstanding what I believe is being is being suggested:

1. No involuntary offloading of boarded passengers for "must travel" transfers.
2. Airline staff will need to secure agreement by boarded passengers to voluntary offloading by offering suitable monetary and alternative travel incentives. In order to achieve this staff will require additional flexibility in what can be offered.
3. All existing reasons for involuntary offloading e.g. drunkeness etc. would still be in place.

In the particular case that sparked all this off I believe that a previous poster highlighted that there were flights leaving an hour or so later the same day with free seats to which the passengers could have been transferred. Supposedly up to $1000 in vouchers had been offered. I strongly suspect that had $500 cash and a seat on one of those flights been offered then four seats would have become available without a problem. However as stated above the staff would have required the flexibility to offer that.
 
OSUk1d
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:00 pm

ytz wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
So then you think all overbooking should be illegal, because its the same difference.


Yes. In what other industry is the establishment allowed to routinely overbook? They can fine no-shows the full ticket amount, if they don't want to lose money. Or we can go back to cheaper stand-by tickets where the passenger is fully aware that they may not fly at that moment.

And all this is moot. This was not an oversold situation. This was a decision made by the airline to prioritize an employee and operational issue over a paying customer. They want to get his seat back. He value it higher than they were willing to compensate him. Then they used law enforcement to make him an offer he couldn't refuse.

I hope he wins more than Munroz's annual bonus this year.



It is an oversold situation, deadheading is positive space.
 
OSUk1d
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:02 pm

GlenP wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
InsideMan wrote:

if you rent an appartment the landlord can't call the Police to remove you from his property!
You have a valid contract that gives you the right to be there. If you don't like it, go to court.



Your lease doesn't have a stipulation that they may lease to someone else and can remove you and compensate you. Your plane ticket does.


There are clearly stipulated circumstances under which you can be denied boarding or removed from the aircraft once boarded.

Making room for airline employees, who are commuting is not one of them.

The airline has admitted the passenger did nothing wrong in this instance. Are you claiming that you know their COC's better than the airline's lawyers, who will have poured over it to find a get out clause, before this admission was made?



You can read it yourself. It says nothing about being on board already or not. They "admitted" to appease social justice warriors who think that someone who says you'll have to drag me off shouldn't be dragged off.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:13 pm

Can we expect class action by traumatised passengers who saw/heard the removal?

Had passengers already been compensated for overbooking on this flight, and been re-booked, even before the issue with the crew arose, triggering even more who now wouldn't be able to fly? If yes, then surely United knew the offers would have be increased.
 
OSUk1d
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:14 pm

OSUk1d wrote:
So then you think all overbooking should be illegal, because its the same difference.


It wouldn't be the worst idea in the history of ideas. The airlines can then chose whether or not to make all fares non-refundable or bring back stand-by tickets. How would you like to buy tickets for the theatre, turn up and be told someone else has your seat because they overbooked? :crazy:[/quote]

IDB's are rare, there is no need for that.
 
SATexan
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:15 pm

I wonder what would've happened had Dr. Dao's wife called the "real cops" via 911 when these goons started threatening her husband !
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:18 pm

How thick can heads get. It is all the same how do you call, space needed for deadheading crew, overbooking, IDB whatever. If the passenger is boarded and seating in his assigned seat and the airline ask him to deboard and he says no, than the airline has to employ violence to deboard him.
You do never ever sort out a civil disagreement with violence, that is it, end of story.

After reading this drivel hear about the rights of the airlines to screw over passenger, my opinion gets rather harder against the airline. That passenger was assaulted, and the three thugs, aka policeman, and the persons having called them, including the captain if he was involved, should see the inside of a prison. And people here on a.net should think a little before promoting violence.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:18 pm

CanadaFair wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


In all fairness he was not beaten as that article claims.


For safety, they should have at least asked the passengers in the rows in front and in back of Mr. Dao to temporarily vacate their seats. IF, a security officer had been on either side of Mr. Dao, in his row, then standing him upright could have easily been done, and could have avoided Mr. Dao's injuries that occurred from being "popped" out of the middle seat, and that force of action leading Mr. Dao right into the armrest across the aisle.

I do not think the security officers intended on crashing Mr. Dao's face against the armrest, like a "bad" cop might intentionally bang some perps head against the door frame of his cruiser, as he puts the perp in the vehicle.

Whether it was right or wrong to extract Mr. Dao, the security officers handled it very poorly. I blame the entire commercial aviation industry for this. There should have been adequate required training for officers of how to safely extract someone from a middle seat, with what looked like physical barriers between each of the seats.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
OSUk1d
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:21 pm

SamYeager2016 wrote:
There seem to be number of posters who persist in wilfully misunderstanding what I believe is being is being suggested:

1. No involuntary offloading of boarded passengers for "must travel" transfers.
2. Airline staff will need to secure agreement by boarded passengers to voluntary offloading by offering suitable monetary and alternative travel incentives. In order to achieve this staff will require additional flexibility in what can be offered.
3. All existing reasons for involuntary offloading e.g. drunkeness etc. would still be in place.

In the particular case that sparked all this off I believe that a previous poster highlighted that there were flights leaving an hour or so later the same day with free seats to which the passengers could have been transferred. Supposedly up to $1000 in vouchers had been offered. I strongly suspect that had $500 cash and a seat on one of those flights been offered then four seats would have become available without a problem. However as stated above the staff would have required the flexibility to offer that.



The person who suggested that has no idea if there were seats, just that there were flights. If UA had seats on their flights they wouldnt have offered a rebook for 3 pm the next day. Also, its very possible the deadheading crew had to leave soon in order to be legal for the flight the next day. This forum is no different than the rest of life... where people state things as fact when they really have no clue.
 
OSUk1d
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:23 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
CanadaFair wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


In all fairness he was not beaten as that article claims.


For safety, they should have at least asked the passengers in the rows in front and in back of Mr. Dao to temporarily vacate their seats. IF, a security officer had been on either side of Mr. Dao, in his row, then standing him upright could have easily been done, and could have avoided Mr. Dao's injuries that occurred from being "popped" out of the middle seat, and that force of action leading Mr. Dao right into the armrest across the aisle.

I do not think the security officers intended on crashing Mr. Dao's face against the armrest, like a "bad" cop might intentionally bang some perps head against the door frame of his cruiser, as he puts the perp in the vehicle.

Whether it was right or wrong to extract Mr. Dao, the security officers handled it very poorly. I blame the entire commercial aviation industry for this. There should have been adequate required training for officers of how to safely extract someone from a middle seat, with what looked like physical barriers between each of the seats.


You know how his injuries could have been avoided? By him getting his ass up when told to. He wasn't being asked, he was being told. Repeatedly.
 
OSUk1d
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:27 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
How thick can heads get. It is all the same how do you call, space needed for deadheading crew, overbooking, IDB whatever. If the passenger is boarded and seating in his assigned seat and the airline ask him to deboard and he says no, than the airline has to employ violence to deboard him.
You do never ever sort out a civil disagreement with violence, that is it, end of story.

After reading this drivel hear about the rights of the airlines to screw over passenger, my opinion gets rather harder against the airline. That passenger was assaulted, and the three thugs, aka policeman, and the persons having called them, including the captain if he was involved, should see the inside of a prison. And people here on a.net should think a little before promoting violence.


He was physically removed after saying they would have to. His flailing and resisting caused him to get injured. In your world nobody would get anywhere because flights would all be cancelled when crew times out because someones feelings are hurt and everyone just has to stop and stare at each other. And everyone would be in prison for every minor thing apparently.
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:28 pm

SATexan wrote:
I wonder what would've happened had Dr. Dao's wife called the "real cops" via 911 when these goons started threatening her husband !


They would have told them to get off the plane.
 
ubeema
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:36 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
This drivel: http://asiajack.news/2017/04/15/sort-ma ... hty-child/ has been posted on a news site (I use that term loosely) today.

Some highlights include:

The title: What sort of man needs to be dragged from an aircraft like a naughty child?
The character assassination being approximately 50% of the content.
"Interestingly, and relevant to the United incident, one doctor assessing Dao’s case said he had interpersonal problems, noting ‘he would unilaterally choose to do his own thing.’"
"Fake outrage"
"What sort of person, having been told a flight was over-booked and they would need to be re-scheduled (with the offer of a cash compensation), would then charge past a boarding gate, run onto an aircraft, sit himself down and then refuse to move, needing to be dragged off like a disruptive child."
"He hasn’t got any patients."

The accuracy of the content, nearly a week after the incident, is atrocious.

1) By posting these details whether true or false, we are moving away from the discussion regarding the UA 3411 incident. It becomes personal IMO.
2) It has already been discussed in this thread that there are at least two Dr Dao in the State of Kentucky and possibly the same county
3) One also might want to refrain from using "accuracy" when citing an article that has NEITHER offered source of the alleged offenses NOR confirmed the offenses are unequivocally tied to Dr Dao involved in UA 3411 assault.
4) The article forgets to mention that UNITED has admitted FULL RESPONSIBILITY and COMPLETELY EXHONERATED Dr Dao of any wrongdoing.
5) Good legal representation would be careful NOT to smear the character of a plaintiff because not every piece of information makes GOOD evidence, and NOT all evidence is admissible in court. To the contrary, could backfire and irate a judge to the point of no return who could likely add punitive damages (NO corporation wants punitive damages).
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12695
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:45 pm

From what I understand, this was not a true United flight, but operated by a contracted partner, Republic. I wonder if there are certain rules that United can overrule Republic to give priority to United employees on flights for the reasons with this 'bumping' situation. I would note that there may be certain financial issues for Republic as currently in Chapter 11 US Bankruptcy and may have limited their ability to offer more $$$.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:00 pm

OSUk1d wrote:
You know how his injuries could have been avoided?


By United applying common sense and putting the paying customer first? I know, an outrageous suggestion, what was I thinking? :banghead:

Do you enjoy swimming against the tide?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
GlenP
Posts: 224
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:00 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
CanadaFair wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


In all fairness he was not beaten as that article claims.


For safety, they should have at least asked the passengers in the rows in front and in back of Mr. Dao to temporarily vacate their seats. IF, a security officer had been on either side of Mr. Dao, in his row, then standing him upright could have easily been done, and could have avoided Mr. Dao's injuries that occurred from being "popped" out of the middle seat, and that force of action leading Mr. Dao right into the armrest across the aisle.

I do not think the security officers intended on crashing Mr. Dao's face against the armrest, like a "bad" cop might intentionally bang some perps head against the door frame of his cruiser, as he puts the perp in the vehicle.

Whether it was right or wrong to extract Mr. Dao, the security officers handled it very poorly. I blame the entire commercial aviation industry for this. There should have been adequate required training for officers of how to safely extract someone from a middle seat, with what looked like physical barriers between each of the seats.


The security officers shouldn't have been there in the first place, never mind assaulting a passenger, whilst in the process of acting as the airline's enforcers.
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
GlenP
Posts: 224
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:02 pm

OSUk1d wrote:
SATexan wrote:
I wonder what would've happened had Dr. Dao's wife called the "real cops" via 911 when these goons started threatening her husband !


They would have told them to get off the plane.


Oh, you mean the security goons, prior to arresting them for assault?

The police would most likely have told the airline staff that this was a commercial dispute, and, as such nothing to do with the police.
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 458
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:10 pm

The [unproven] character assassination of Dr. Dao really needs to stop. Even if it was the pope, in a hurry to get back for mass at St. Peter's Square, it shouldn't make any difference.

(yes, I know the pope doesn't fly commercial)
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:14 pm

OSUk1d wrote:
In your world nobody would get anywhere because flights would all be cancelled when crew times out because someones feelings are hurt and everyone just has to stop and stare at each other. And everyone would be in prison for every minor thing apparently.


And in yours, any airline would not have to use proper procedures to ensure the smooth operation of their business, could flagrantly disregard their own contractual obligations whenever it suits them and call in a paramilitary organisation to make sure the travelling public are too cowed to think twice about trying to stand up for what they believe to be their contractual rights.

You want to run an airline properly, then deal with passenger loads before the passengers actually get on the plane. If you can't manage that properly for whatever reason once in a while, make sure your staff have discretionary powers to rectify to situation in the same way that most of the democratic, capitalist world deal with things.

I don't know about anyone else, but I am strongly resisting the urge to invoke Godwin's Law ;-)
Last edited by NorthTerminal on Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GlenP
Posts: 224
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:15 pm

OSUk1d wrote:
GlenP wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:


Your lease doesn't have a stipulation that they may lease to someone else and can remove you and compensate you. Your plane ticket does.


There are clearly stipulated circumstances under which you can be denied boarding or removed from the aircraft once boarded.

Making room for airline employees, who are commuting is not one of them.

The airline has admitted the passenger did nothing wrong in this instance. Are you claiming that you know their COC's better than the airline's lawyers, who will have poured over it to find a get out clause, before this admission was made?



You can read it yourself. It says nothing about being on board already or not. They "admitted" to appease social justice warriors who think that someone who says you'll have to drag me off shouldn't be dragged off.


Go on. Do tell us you're actually in the running for daftest comment of the thread award, or at you so caught up in trying to shift the blame to the victim that you genuinely believe the tripe you're posting.

Can you really be unable to see that, given the fact that litigation would have been guaranteed, United's lawyers would have permitted the company's CEO to go on television, state that the passenger did nothing wrong and admit that they screwed up without having gone through the COC with a fine toothed comb, looking for anything which would have permitted OM to state that the airline acted within the terms of the contract between them and the passenger?

In effect, even if they don't settle out of court, by saying this OM has handed Dr Dao's lawyers their case on a plate. It is inconceivable that any CEO would do such a thing if there was even enough of a chance that they could claim they acted lawfully, even if it the arguments were reduced to the level of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

If he'd done such a thing OM would currently be on the unemployed list, after the board and shareholders had hung him out to dry by his privates, yet, he is still in the role of CEO and has stated that he's going nowhere.
Ubique Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:31 pm

GlenP wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
SATexan wrote:
I wonder what would've happened had Dr. Dao's wife called the "real cops" via 911 when these goons started threatening her husband !


They would have told them to get off the plane.


Oh, you mean the security goons, prior to arresting them for assault?

The police would most likely have told the airline staff that this was a commercial dispute, and, as such nothing to do with the police.


Yet you're suggesting his wife should have called the police. You can't seem to make up your mind.
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 87
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Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:33 pm

NorthTerminal wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
In your world nobody would get anywhere because flights would all be cancelled when crew times out because someones feelings are hurt and everyone just has to stop and stare at each other. And everyone would be in prison for every minor thing apparently.


And in yours, any airline would not have to use proper procedures to ensure the smooth operation of their business, could flagrantly disregard their own contractual obligations whenever it suits them and call in a paramilitary organisation to make sure the travelling public are too cowed to think twice about trying to stand up for what they believe to be their contractual rights.

You want to run an airline properly, then deal with passenger loads before the passengers actually get on the plane. If you can't manage that properly for whatever reason once in a while, make sure your staff have discretionary powers to rectify to situation in the same way that most of the democratic, capitalist world deal with things.

I don't know about anyone else, but I am strongly resisting the urge to invoke Godwin's Law ;-)



They did have discretionary powers... to IDB and preserve the schedule for the next day.
 
OSUk1d
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:43 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:39 pm

GlenP wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
GlenP wrote:

There are clearly stipulated circumstances under which you can be denied boarding or removed from the aircraft once boarded.

Making room for airline employees, who are commuting is not one of them.

The airline has admitted the passenger did nothing wrong in this instance. Are you claiming that you know their COC's better than the airline's lawyers, who will have poured over it to find a get out clause, before this admission was made?



You can read it yourself. It says nothing about being on board already or not. They "admitted" to appease social justice warriors who think that someone who says you'll have to drag me off shouldn't be dragged off.


Go on. Do tell us you're actually in the running for daftest comment of the thread award, or at you so caught up in trying to shift the blame to the victim that you genuinely believe the tripe you're posting.

Can you really be unable to see that, given the fact that litigation would have been guaranteed, United's lawyers would have permitted the company's CEO to go on television, state that the passenger did nothing wrong and admit that they screwed up without having gone through the COC with a fine toothed comb, looking for anything which would have permitted OM to state that the airline acted within the terms of the contract between them and the passenger?

In effect, even if they don't settle out of court, by saying this OM has handed Dr Dao's lawyers their case on a plate. It is inconceivable that any CEO would do such a thing if there was even enough of a chance that they could claim they acted lawfully, even if it the arguments were reduced to the level of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

If he'd done such a thing OM would currently be on the unemployed list, after the board and shareholders had hung him out to dry by his privates, yet, he is still in the role of CEO and has stated that he's going nowhere.


It doesn't say anything about being onboard or off. He admitted it was handled poorly, not that anyone from United assaulted him. It was well within their rights to deny him boarding in an oversold situation. I guess they should just sit there all night next time so you won't need to use so many tissues.
 
ubeema
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:48 pm

GlenP wrote:
If he'd done such a thing OM would currently be on the unemployed list, after the board and shareholders had hung him out to dry by his privates, yet, he is still in the role of CEO and has stated that he's going nowhere.


The board would have the final say on whether he stays anyway. The show is not over yet.
 
NorthTerminal
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:55 pm

OSUk1d wrote:
They did have discretionary powers... to IDB and preserve the schedule for the next day.


Discretion. The freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation

To IDB and preserve schedule is strict company policy the antithesis of discretion.

And anyway, the fact that the passenger was boarded in every meaning of the word and the UA contract of carriage does not explicitly define the term boarding to be anything other than the English language meaning of the word, it was not possible to deny him that privilege, in contractual terms... that ship had sailed.

You may not like it, but rarely has anyone been so wrong since the early Norseman set sail to see if they could find the point where the sea spilled over the edge of Earth.
 
Flighty
Posts: 8299
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:55 pm

Tugger wrote:
Flighty wrote:
I understand the emotions about a guy bleeding, and it's terrible. But I don't understand how we are going to change the airline industry without making it more inefficient and overall worse for customers.

The only changes likely to occur, or that ought to occur, are a couple of small details in DB procedure. That will fix this issue.

My two comments on this are: "A guy bleeding" is not just terrible, it is also completely unacceptable in any situation like this. It cannot be OK or allowed (not that it won't ever happen again). And that I think small changes as you note, small though they be, will be both fully effective and will not make things inefficient or worse, and in fact will make the industry more efficient and better for the customer.

There is always the risk of overreaction and sadly the industry has only itself to blame (but businesses and industries are almost always notoriously selfish and self interested, creating a feedback loop "we've always done this so lets keep doing it. And now lets do this one thing more..." that reinforces taking things further until a forced correction or self-correction occurs). I truly hope that if something is mandated it is a relatively small change, one that essentially allows only VDB to be used when there is no safety of flight issue (and removes the power to classify someone as a risk to safety of flight simply for not agreeing with crew direction when there is no active danger to the flight. I realize this is a somewhat trickier one).

There is nothing really that wrong with over-booking and bumping as long as an airline fully pays the value needed to the customer for that (and that is what the customer is willing to accept). And here's a cute twist... If the airline feels the amount demanded and paid is usurious, then they can take the passenger to court... (But I don't want this or think it is what will happen.)

Tugg


About "not that it won't happen again," Yup. I predict that more people will bleed at airports. We will see other borderline cases. One thing about people, especially men, is they are always testing the limits. The cops will remain at airports; they will still work out and practice their skills of hitting/dragging. That is what cops do, and they do it well.

This particular issue is resolved, but there will be others. And that's fine, that is part of our system. There is no dictator. The people spoke here, so the airlines will listen.
 
kalvado
Posts: 556
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:13 am

Flighty wrote:

About "not that it won't happen again," Yup. I predict that more people will bleed at airports. We will see other borderline cases. One thing about people, especially men, is they are always testing the limits. The cops will remain at airports; they will still work out and practice their skills of hitting/dragging. That is what cops do, and they do it well.

This particular issue is resolved, but there will be others. And that's fine, that is part of our system. There is no dictator. The people spoke here, so the airlines will listen.

And civilized use of force is the big part of it.
And message is out, but not yet fully heard. Police is also testing the limits... I don't know where it would end, hopefully not the way it ended in Texas. But one can only hope...
 
BobPatterson
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:20 am

ytz wrote:
OSUk1d wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
So then you think all overbooking should be illegal, because its the same difference.


Yes. In what other industry is the establishment allowed to routinely overbook? They can fine no-shows the full ticket amount, if they don't want to lose money. Or we can go back to cheaper stand-by tickets where the passenger is fully aware that they may not fly at that moment.

And all this is moot. This was not an oversold situation. This was a decision made by the airline to prioritize an employee and operational issue over a paying customer. They want to get his seat back. He value it higher than they were willing to compensate him. Then they used law enforcement to make him an offer he couldn't refuse.

I hope he wins more than Munroz's annual bonus this year.


Please try to be more careful when quoting previous posters.

The words attributed to me were instead posted by OSUk1d.

Thanks.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:33 am

So then you think all overbooking should be illegal


I certainly do. There's a simple workaround. Only sell as many tickets as you have seats on the plane. Those ticketholders fly when they show up on time. The airlines can also sell standby tickets. These flyers fly when the regular ticketholders don't arrive to the flight on time, or not at all. This way, the airlines can fill their seats without bumping people who have legitimately bought a ticket expecting to receive a service. They can also block out a few seats per flight for deadheading crew, and if none are needed then they can sell those seats to the standby passengers. Or, just increase the incentive to give up one's seat until there are enough seats for deadheaders, as has been suggested many times.

Given that most tickets these days are nonrefundable, the airlines will still make money off of those who don't show, plus the standby fares. Win win. The passengers win, the airlines win. What am I missing here?

The only reason I can fathom to overbook as zealously as the industry does is to maximize profit, which I'm not opposed to as long as the regular paying passenger receives his seat, as promised, as bought, as expected.
 
ytz
Posts: 3075
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:43 am

scbriml wrote:

And when other passengers were "uncomfortable" or the passenger in question dared to speak a foreign language not instantly recognisable (normally called "Arabic" even though it wasn't). Oh, and don't be a turban-wearing Sikh.


Forget that. If you were to indulge in the foreign language known as "algebra" or other standard mathematical notation (heaven forbid you use the Del operator and some partial differentials), the ignoramus beside you will think you're a terrorist and the crew might be equally moronic:

http://time.com/4322154/airplane-profes ... uspicious/

The ridiculous part is that she caused a two hour delay and they still put her on a later flight.
 
BobPatterson
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:55 am

Flighty wrote:
The only changes likely to occur, or that ought to occur, are a couple of small details in DB procedure. That will fix this issue......

.....We will see other borderline cases.


This is not a borderline case. You are still grasping at straws.

What will fix this issue is a new LAW or laws that establish a "Passenger Bill of Rights".

Among those rights:

All tickets sold are non-revocable without cause (civil disorder, for instance).

Airlines are prohibited from overbooking.

Airlines may not assign seats to employees if, in so doing, overbooking occurs.

Airlines may entice booked passengers into giving up seats by offering CASH-NOW payments and other benefits (hotel bookings, perhaps).

The only fly in the ointment is when an airline must substitute an aircraft with fewer seats than the one originally planned to be used. There must be defined precise rules to govern such a situation, with very generous treatment of passengers denied boarding (last tickets to be sold).

You simply must get over your assumed roll of airline apologist. Customer rights outweigh airline whims. Period.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.

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