sunrisevalley
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:56 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
Sunrise valley, any idea how a 779 would go out of DEN on a summers evening?


No tables yet for the 779. The 77W looses about 30t in TOW. and allows a DEN-AKL payload a little below max passenger. The 779 would probably do better than that with the new wing. The 778 may work since it has a 12 to 14t better payload than the 779.
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:20 pm

QF46 wrote:
Re the above 778/779 discussion, around when would we expect to see NZ place such an order? When will the 772 be up for retirement?


I'm not yet convinced that the 778 (like the A358) will see the light of day, and the 779 is too big for NZ and in terms of AKL airport. In terms of pure 772/77W replacement I think the A350-1000 is closer to the mark for NZ right now, and given that the 77X order books are jammed for 3-4 years after rollout (which may yet be delayed again), you won't see a replacement in any numbers at NZ until 2025 which has the fleet up around 19-20 years by then

If Airbus can deliver A350s significantly prior to that (say 2020-23) then I'd be very surprised if that didn't get them the order. The fact they could negotiate A321NEOs into the order may also be a deal sweetener for NZ. the 787-10 doesn't have the range/payload of the A350-1000 so isn't really a contender unless NZ have ideas to expand capacity to say PER/DPS/SIN/HNL
Flown to 128 Airports in 48 Countries on 81 Operators. Visited 56 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
wstakl
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:15 am

Why do people mow lawns in the rain?....dear oh dear all those wheel tracks in the lawn.
 
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LamboAston
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:52 am

The pilot on my mum's flight from AKL gave a briefing to the cabin that it is surfing conditions, not flying conditions. Also said it was wet and bumpy all the way from CHC where he had just come from. She is on OJS, and there is limited vis, heavy rain and wind in Dunedin where she is going. Half expecting a diversion.
AS350, B733/4/7/8, B744/8, B762/3, B77E/L/W, B789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A346, A380, AT73/5/6, Q300, Q400, CR2/7, E190, S340, B1900C/D, E110 (E for epic)
NZ, EK, QF, SQ, UA, US, CO, FZ, FR, U2, BA, VA, VS, MH, EI, EY, LH, EN, NM, TG, GZ
 
Motorhussy
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:04 am

Zkpilot wrote:
There are 4 main paying types in shorthaul business: 1) Actual businessmen who need space to do some work. 2) Wealthy who don't care about spending an extra $700 or so. 3) Large/tall pax who for comfort reasons need the extra space. 4) Businessmen who have it in their contract/work policy to travel in business - they might be connecting onwards on a flight without business so this is their chance for a bit of comfort.
Then of course you have the frequent flyers with points to burn or upgrades to use, not too mention airline staff that can and do pay extra to fly in business where available.


I'd like to draw your attention to a significant and important type of traveller in business class, they're called women and they comprise a significant portion of business people at the front of the plane.
come visit the south pacific
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:13 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
zkncj wrote:
qf789 wrote:
TG to send A359 instead of 77W to AKL in NS18

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... f-09apr17/


In the last 10 years anyone know how many times TG has swapped the aircraft on AKL-BKK?

From what I can remember we've seen in recent years MD11, 744, 346, 772, 77W did the 343 every make it to AKL?



You would need to go back further, the 772 has been here since March 2008 unchanged bar the odd 773 sub, 346 was October 2005-March 2008, MD11 started the non stop for the first few months July October 2005. Before that it was trans Tasman daily 744/743 via SYD with a 3 weekly service via BNE also from 2002/05 with MD11's, 744's and 773's were all used atleast seasonally, they were going to make it daily but didn't once EK entered. TG never had 343's, but their 345's subbed a few times for 346's. They also flew DC10's and 742's in the 1980's early 90's. This will be the first time the 77W has been but as I say the 773 flew via SYD/BNE and the odd 772 sub.

QF46 wrote:
Re the above 778/779 discussion, around when would we expect to see NZ place such an order? When will the 772 be up for retirement?


The 772 looks to be in the fleet for the next 5/6 years, the oldest is only 11.5 years and youngest 10.3. I would say NZ will add additional 789's in the short term if they need more aircraft. It would seem that they won't need any replacements for a while yet. As to 77X, it's a big expensive machine yes it's efficient but NZ will keep an eye on 78X IMO and lean towards that if Boeing can ER it a bit. In the A350 thread I was told NZ would look at A350 which they will but I just can't see them going that route even if it looks a good fit. Heck they could add a third 789 config down the line with say 35J 35W 170Y and use it to LAX/SFO, smaller but use UA to backfill or a mix of 275 seat and 240 seat 789's to balance capacity.

The 78X would be a good fit for Asia but 2 daily with 789's is probably more important imo on trunk routes to connect to EZE.

Re QF I agree but the 778 seems to make sense if it can carry 280 odd SYD-LHR, I'm not s

Problem is that the 78X is up against pavement loading limits for it's main gear. The only way around that would be to make it triple-bogey (like the 777 or add in a centre main gear).
Without that it can't increase it's MTOW which would be needed for a 78XER. They are unlikely to find significant weight savings and large enough fuel consumption improvements in the current design to make it an ER. Of course the other option is to build a 7811 with a new larger wing and triple-bogeys and use that in the 78X length for a new LR aircraft which would probably beat the 778 for range. If they were to do this then yes NZ could go for an all 787 fleet (789, 78XLR, 7811) which would cover everything from 290-340 seats and would have an option for the entire Pacific Rim as well as range for places like NY, Brazil, etc. While they would miss out on some of the revenue from the larger seat count 779 the sheer commonality of the fleet in just having the 787 would make significant operational savings and flexibility.
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:19 am

777ER wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
I made a comment yesterday in the Oz thread about how QFs fleet will basically look like NZ's soon most likely.
QF is seriously talking about East Coast-LHR direct and SYD-JFK direct. The only aircraft that can do this in standard config will be the 778 and A359ER. However QF have also said they want 300 pax onboard in a 3 class config (Business/PremiumY/Y). This might be hard to do with the 778 and isn't possible in the A359. There is talk that they might abuse a 779 by blocking off seats/fitting a slightly more spacious economy section (take out a few rows). So QF would end up with about 24x 779, however many 789/78X for their long haul fleet. They would also be converting their A380 options into A320/A321 for their short haul ops with some 787 in the mix (or MoM) for certain routes.
In other words pretty much what NZ has.
I feel like maybe NZ won't mix and match 778/9 so will just pick one. Since the 778 isn't much bigger than the 789/X I think that NZ will also go down the 779 route since it offers the best CASM (even if being abused). So will they look to NY?
In this case I could see them also getting the 78X as it will by then be capable of doing AKL-LAX/SFO/TYO/SIN/HKG at a better CASM (LAX would still stay 777 though for NZ1&5 at least).
Sunrise valley, any idea how a 779 would go out of DEN on a summers evening?

Is this your own personal view or has QF announced things like A380 orders converted in A320/321? Could the A320/321 eventually make its way to Jetconnect?

QF has publicly stated they are very interested in doing SYD-LHR and SYD-JFK etc. The only aircraft that can do that is A359LR and 778. Thing is that the A359 or A3510 doesn't really offer the larger capacity they need to replace the A380 with (which is almost certain since the only airline that seems to actually make them work is EK).
With JQ operating the A320 it wouldn't be hard for QF to transition to them. It has been rumoured that they are considering doing so (and they have a huge amount of options for them) since the A320 for the most part is a better aircraft for passenger experience (and for most airlines perspectives as well - baggage cans etc). The A321 is a pretty amazing aircraft from a CASM viewpoint. QF does have those A380 orders to get rid of and you can guarantee that Airbus wouldn't let them out of that easily.
If QF did then so too would JC
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77west
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:26 am

aerorobnz wrote:
QF46 wrote:
Re the above 778/779 discussion, around when would we expect to see NZ place such an order? When will the 772 be up for retirement?


I'm not yet convinced that the 778 (like the A358) will see the light of day, and the 779 is too big for NZ and in terms of AKL airport. In terms of pure 772/77W replacement I think the A350-1000 is closer to the mark for NZ right now, and given that the 77X order books are jammed for 3-4 years after rollout (which may yet be delayed again), you won't see a replacement in any numbers at NZ until 2025 which has the fleet up around 19-20 years by then

If Airbus can deliver A350s significantly prior to that (say 2020-23) then I'd be very surprised if that didn't get them the order. The fact they could negotiate A321NEOs into the order may also be a deal sweetener for NZ. the 787-10 doesn't have the range/payload of the A350-1000 so isn't really a contender unless NZ have ideas to expand capacity to say PER/DPS/SIN/HNL


I agree with you RE the 778 being a bit iffy; but NZ has operated the 744 before which is bigger/similar to the 779 and AKL handles multiple A380 and some 747-8i daily so I don't think the 779 is too big.

That said, I still think a top-up 77W order may be possible in lieu of 779; good prices offered by Boeing, already in fleet, NZ likes the last frames off the line... (well, anecdotally)
77West - AW109S - BE90 - JS31 - B1900 - Q300 - ATR72 - DC9-30 - MD80 - B733 - A320 - B738 - A300-B4 - B773 - B77W
 
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LamboAston
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:34 am

77west wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:
QF46 wrote:
Re the above 778/779 discussion, around when would we expect to see NZ place such an order? When will the 772 be up for retirement?


I'm not yet convinced that the 778 (like the A358) will see the light of day, and the 779 is too big for NZ and in terms of AKL airport. In terms of pure 772/77W replacement I think the A350-1000 is closer to the mark for NZ right now, and given that the 77X order books are jammed for 3-4 years after rollout (which may yet be delayed again), you won't see a replacement in any numbers at NZ until 2025 which has the fleet up around 19-20 years by then

If Airbus can deliver A350s significantly prior to that (say 2020-23) then I'd be very surprised if that didn't get them the order. The fact they could negotiate A321NEOs into the order may also be a deal sweetener for NZ. the 787-10 doesn't have the range/payload of the A350-1000 so isn't really a contender unless NZ have ideas to expand capacity to say PER/DPS/SIN/HNL


I agree with you RE the 778 being a bit iffy; but NZ has operated the 744 before which is bigger/similar to the 779 and AKL handles multiple A380 and some 747-8i daily so I don't think the 779 is too big.

That said, I still think a top-up 77W order may be possible in lieu of 779; good prices offered by Boeing, already in fleet, NZ likes the last frames off the line... (well, anecdotally)

Will the 779 be in the same size class as the 77W or the A380/B748?
AS350, B733/4/7/8, B744/8, B762/3, B77E/L/W, B789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A346, A380, AT73/5/6, Q300, Q400, CR2/7, E190, S340, B1900C/D, E110 (E for epic)
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aerorobnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:51 pm

77west wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:
QF46 wrote:
Re the above 778/779 discussion, around when would we expect to see NZ place such an order? When will the 772 be up for retirement?


I'm not yet convinced that the 778 (like the A358) will see the light of day, and the 779 is too big for NZ and in terms of AKL airport. In terms of pure 772/77W replacement I think the A350-1000 is closer to the mark for NZ right now, and given that the 77X order books are jammed for 3-4 years after rollout (which may yet be delayed again), you won't see a replacement in any numbers at NZ until 2025 which has the fleet up around 19-20 years by then

If Airbus can deliver A350s significantly prior to that (say 2020-23) then I'd be very surprised if that didn't get them the order. The fact they could negotiate A321NEOs into the order may also be a deal sweetener for NZ. the 787-10 doesn't have the range/payload of the A350-1000 so isn't really a contender unless NZ have ideas to expand capacity to say PER/DPS/SIN/HNL


I agree with you RE the 778 being a bit iffy; but NZ has operated the 744 before which is bigger/similar to the 779 and AKL handles multiple A380 and some 747-8i daily so I don't think the 779 is too big.

That said, I still think a top-up 77W order may be possible in lieu of 779; good prices offered by Boeing, already in fleet, NZ likes the last frames off the line... (well, anecdotally)


The last of the 77Ws is improbable given the line has been wound down to match demand both to maximize 787 production and make way for 77X.
It might need to be stated I am talking of footprint not just capacity which is seasonal at best. IF it gets the wing folding function then it will fit with the restrictions of a 77W if not then it will be Code F like an A380, and even if it does fold the last 5m or so of the wingspan remember AKL gates are tight so it may not be possible to fold on every stand.
It's a different story to have 5 or 6 "turnaround" movements staggered in a day which use 3 specific gates vs an airline that bases the fleet from here and effectively can operate the type to/from any widebody destination they fly to and with any layover duration. It adds a lot of operational complexity and would increase number of bus ops.
Flown to 128 Airports in 48 Countries on 81 Operators. Visited 56 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:39 pm

AA to suspend AKL services in the Low Season.
"American Airlines will suspend its Auckland-Los Angeles service from 07 Aug until 06 Oct, and when the flights resume they will be operated by the carrier's 787-9 Dreamliner, AA has just announced.
The suspension is in line with AA's peak season in North America, the carrier says.
Introducing the 787-9 will bring AA's new Premium Economy service to the route."
Interesting move. UA did this however the difference is that UA works closely with NZ so uses the codeshare on NZ metal to cover it's customers over the low season.
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ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:22 pm

Shows again how seasonal the market is, while they could keep flying year round I guess it comes down to the fact that for that period AA can use 2 787's on a more profitable route or routes. It will be interesting going foward in future years the approach of AA and UA and weather the 787 can make this route viable yearround. There has been good growth but it seems yields are under pressure.

I guess AA will route people via OZ on their own and QF services. QF do add extra SYD/MEL-LAX peak time services but not in these months I don't think so probably no chance they will operate a few Flights a week AKL-LAX during this period.
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:33 am

Yep. A sign tha New Zealand isn't as important a market as it thinks it is...it also shows it wasn't just a case of NZ trying to keep monopoly all these years as some here would claim - it was that other airlines were either not interested or struggling to break even just to stay in market. It also shows how effective NZ management has been.at getting capacity and frequency right in this fickle market

And that's two airlines that would have been doing better than the likes of the secondary chinese carriers, PR and the like. You can expect more airlines to pull out of yearround service to AKL over the coming year or so I'm sure.
Flown to 128 Airports in 48 Countries on 81 Operators. Visited 56 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
ZKOJH
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:34 am

"Air New Zealand among top airlines in TripAdvisor survey"

Air New Zealand has been recognised in TripAdvisor's inaugural Travellers' Choice Awards for airlines, coming in fifth overall and named runner up in the Asia-Pacific region behind commercial partner Singapore Airlines.

Air New Zealand has also been awarded best premium economy class.

Top overall airline is Emirates, which flies to this country with five daily services. The awards are determined by the quantity and quality of TripAdvisor traveller reviews and ratings submitted over a 12-month period.

Air New Zealand's general manager of customer experience Anita Hawthorne said the accolades reflected the airline's commitment to delivering an outstanding experience on the 15 million customer journeys on the airline every year.

World Top 10
1. Emirates, UAE
2. Singapore Airlines
3. Azul, Brazil
4. JetBlue, US
5. Air New Zealand
6. Korean Air, South Korea
7. Japan Airlines, Japan
8. Thai Smile, Thailand
9. Alaska Airlines, US
10. Garuda Indonesia, Indonesia

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11836284
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:36 am

NZ to increase HNL to 5 weekly 15 Dec 17 to 26 Jan 18, 772 will operate instead of 789. From 17 Nov 17 to 14 Dec 17 the 4 weekly flights will also be operated by the 772. HNL will go back to 789 from 30 Jan 18

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... f-12apr17/
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77west
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:17 am

aerorobnz wrote:
77west wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:

I'm not yet convinced that the 778 (like the A358) will see the light of day, and the 779 is too big for NZ and in terms of AKL airport. In terms of pure 772/77W replacement I think the A350-1000 is closer to the mark for NZ right now, and given that the 77X order books are jammed for 3-4 years after rollout (which may yet be delayed again), you won't see a replacement in any numbers at NZ until 2025 which has the fleet up around 19-20 years by then

If Airbus can deliver A350s significantly prior to that (say 2020-23) then I'd be very surprised if that didn't get them the order. The fact they could negotiate A321NEOs into the order may also be a deal sweetener for NZ. the 787-10 doesn't have the range/payload of the A350-1000 so isn't really a contender unless NZ have ideas to expand capacity to say PER/DPS/SIN/HNL


I agree with you RE the 778 being a bit iffy; but NZ has operated the 744 before which is bigger/similar to the 779 and AKL handles multiple A380 and some 747-8i daily so I don't think the 779 is too big.

That said, I still think a top-up 77W order may be possible in lieu of 779; good prices offered by Boeing, already in fleet, NZ likes the last frames off the line... (well, anecdotally)


The last of the 77Ws is improbable given the line has been wound down to match demand both to maximize 787 production and make way for 77X.
It might need to be stated I am talking of footprint not just capacity which is seasonal at best. IF it gets the wing folding function then it will fit with the restrictions of a 77W if not then it will be Code F like an A380, and even if it does fold the last 5m or so of the wingspan remember AKL gates are tight so it may not be possible to fold on every stand.
It's a different story to have 5 or 6 "turnaround" movements staggered in a day which use 3 specific gates vs an airline that bases the fleet from here and effectively can operate the type to/from any widebody destination they fly to and with any layover duration. It adds a lot of operational complexity and would increase number of bus ops.


The folding wingtips are a standard feature, not optional or a feature that will be dropped. (unlike the original 777 folding tips offered in the 90's)
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:40 am

NZ cancels all flights in and out of Rotorua, Tauranga, Hamilton, Blenheim, Nelson and Napier and have warned of further disruptions. due to the adverse weather in New Zealand at the moment.

Additional Dunedin-Auckland jet service

Air New Zealand is continuing to grow services to Dunedin, with the announcement of an additional return jet service on Sundays between Dunedin and Auckland from July this year.

Operated by the airline's 171-seat Airbus A320 aircraft, the flight will boost the total number of seats on the route by five percent, with triple daily jet services between the cities now offered on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and Sundays.
From Sunday 9 July 2017, the new A320 service will depart Auckland for Dunedin at 9:15am and will return at 11:40am.
Air New Zealand Chief Revenue Officer Cam Wallace says the airline has added 25 percent more seats between Auckland and Dunedin in the past six months and this latest announcement will increase options for weekend travellers.
"It's fantastic to see demand for services to and from Dunedin continue to grow and we're confident we can sustain an enhanced schedule that benefits visitors and locals alike.
"Our increased jet operations have also created two new roles in our Dunedin engineering team, raising support for our ground crew and further strengthening the reliability of our schedule."

https://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/press-r ... et-service
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:23 am

Does anyone know which 787 is scheduled to operate NZ282 tomorrow night (14th)? I'm really hoping for ZK-NZC or NZE...or maybe NZD.

Had an interesting bus-gate experience recently! Arriving into Auckland on an EK A380, the flight was quite late (2-3 hrs) for a few reasons. Because of this we missed our gate and got a hard stand instead (18 or 19 IIRC). Sadly they were only using a single bus (the one with 64 on the side - I remember this because it was the only one that could be seen through the nosewheel camera) to unload the aircraft which meant that for me, seated in the rearmost economy cabin, it was a 55 minute wait between the aircraft stopping at the gate and boarding the bus to the international terminal. Very frustrating, though the view of the wing as you go down the airstairs off the A380 is pretty cool.

aerorobnz wrote:
I'm not yet convinced that the 778 (like the A358) will see the light of day, and the 779 is too big for NZ

Glad I'm not the only one who shares those views on the 779. IMO its probably too much capacity for the short haul services to SYD/BNE/MEL/NAN/RAR etc and that's before we get to the 77X's compromised economics on shorter distance routes.

I really hope you're right about the airline ordering A350-1000s one day. As I keep moaning about in many of the 777x threads, the 777-8X is an aircraft for government subsidized airlines and will, in all probability, be ridiculously uncompetitive against A350s & 787s on short and mid haul routes. I can't see it working for Air New Zealand.

Zkpilot wrote:
With JQ operating the A320 it wouldn't be hard for QF to transition to them. It has been rumoured that they are considering doing so (and they have a huge amount of options for them) since the A320 for the most part is a better aircraft for passenger experience (and for most airlines perspectives as well - baggage cans etc). The A321 is a pretty amazing aircraft from a CASM viewpoint. QF does have those A380 orders to get rid of and you can guarantee that Airbus wouldn't let them out of that easily.


Airbus know that the A321neo would be highly sought after for Qantas and probably a shoe-in as a future narrowbody for the airline (either to replace the entire 737-8 fleet or just a sub-fleet of a dozen or two aircraft). As such I don't think they would make it too easy for Qantas to shift their A380 orders/deposits to A321neos. Much wiser for Airbus to try and make Qantas convert their A380 orders to A350s. It isn't by any means a certainty that A350s will enter the Qantas fleet, but since they're under evaluation right now a little pressure with regards to the A380 deposits will hopefully be enough to result in a conversion. :)

Zkpilot wrote:
If QF did then so too would JC

Yes, but after many years. :lol: Regarding JC, it's likely that they'll get another 737-8 from mainline sometimes soon.
First to fly the 787-9 (ZK-NZE, NZ103, 2014-10-09)
 
Armaghman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:05 pm

Has airnz made sure planes parked in Auckland out of the line of the storm? Looks like a bad one!
 
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:40 pm

zkojq wrote:
Does anyone know which 787 is scheduled to operate NZ282 tomorrow night (14th)? I'm really hoping for ZK-NZC or NZE...or maybe NZD.

ZK-NZH for the next two days.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zk-nzh

Armaghman wrote:
Has airnz made sure planes parked in Auckland out of the line of the storm? Looks like a bad one!

Fortunately the storm passed just to the east of AKL, but is causing problems elsewhere.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz
https://www.stuff.co.nz

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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:01 pm

zkojq wrote:
Does anyone know which 787 is scheduled to operate NZ282 tomorrow night (14th)? I'm really hoping for ZK-NZC or NZE...or maybe NZD.

Had an interesting bus-gate experience recently! Arriving into Auckland on an EK A380, the flight was quite late (2-3 hrs) for a few reasons. Because of this we missed our gate and got a hard stand instead (18 or 19 IIRC). Sadly they were only using a single bus (the one with 64 on the side - I remember this because it was the only one that could be seen through the nosewheel camera) to unload the aircraft which meant that for me, seated in the rearmost economy cabin, it was a 55 minute wait between the aircraft stopping at the gate and boarding the bus to the international terminal. Very frustrating, though the view of the wing as you go down the airstairs off the A380 is pretty cool.

aerorobnz wrote:
I'm not yet convinced that the 778 (like the A358) will see the light of day, and the 779 is too big for NZ

Glad I'm not the only one who shares those views on the 779. IMO its probably too much capacity for the short haul services to SYD/BNE/MEL/NAN/RAR etc and that's before we get to the 77X's compromised economics on shorter distance routes.

I really hope you're right about the airline ordering A350-1000s one day. As I keep moaning about in many of the 777x threads, the 777-8X is an aircraft for government subsidized airlines and will, in all probability, be ridiculously uncompetitive against A350s & 787s on short and mid haul routes. I can't see it working for Air New Zealand.

Zkpilot wrote:
With JQ operating the A320 it wouldn't be hard for QF to transition to them. It has been rumoured that they are considering doing so (and they have a huge amount of options for them) since the A320 for the most part is a better aircraft for passenger experience (and for most airlines perspectives as well - baggage cans etc). The A321 is a pretty amazing aircraft from a CASM viewpoint. QF does have those A380 orders to get rid of and you can guarantee that Airbus wouldn't let them out of that easily.


Airbus know that the A321neo would be highly sought after for Qantas and probably a shoe-in as a future narrowbody for the airline (either to replace the entire 737-8 fleet or just a sub-fleet of a dozen or two aircraft). As such I don't think they would make it too easy for Qantas to shift their A380 orders/deposits to A321neos. Much wiser for Airbus to try and make Qantas convert their A380 orders to A350s. It isn't by any means a certainty that A350s will enter the Qantas fleet, but since they're under evaluation right now a little pressure with regards to the A380 deposits will hopefully be enough to result in a conversion. :)

Zkpilot wrote:
If QF did then so too would JC

Yes, but after many years. :lol: Regarding JC, it's likely that they'll get another 737-8 from mainline sometimes soon.

Your A380 experience just goes to show how inept AKL is. Sure your flight missed it's gate slot but really there should be more gates in the first place! Then to only have 1 bus to deplane an A380?? In the past I've seen 2x buses plus a van used for A320!

JC might not have to wait too long to transition if the change was made as they could possibly benefit from the A321s larger capacity more than some other routes. Also they got brand new 738 when they got rid of their 733/734s.
57 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
dhaliwal
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:17 pm

What are the load factors in business class for EK A380s out of NZ?
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:51 am

77west wrote:

The folding wingtips are a standard feature, not optional or a feature that will be dropped. (unlike the original 777 folding tips offered in the 90's)


Yes so Boeing say, but they still haven't got a test frame so it still remains to be tested in real world terms with very real implications for airports and airlines alike if it doesn't work so well in practice, and there's no allowing for the almost inevitable delays from Boeing (as they have had for the last 20 years with new type rollouts). Boeing burned NZ big time with an 8 year delay to delivery if 787-9s, and NZ should be rightly concerned of the implications of another delay considering their fleet will already be around 20yo and they will already have to wait just to find a 77X slot amongst the EK/LH orders.

If I was ordering the fleet for the next 15 years or so it'd be
12 CS100s (domestic/ Non AKL international/IUE/NLK/CBR/HBA
10 A320s (domestic and international)
20 A321s (domestic and higher volume AKL international)
10 A350-900s East Coast US, NRT,LHR,YVR and Latin America
8 A350-1000 (LAX//IAH/SFO
13 787-9s for Shorthaul and HNL/DPS/SGN/MNL + lower yield/Y class biased markets below 10h
Flown to 128 Airports in 48 Countries on 81 Operators. Visited 56 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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LamboAston
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:04 am

NZ5717 (CHC-IVC) just diverted to DUD. Conditions must have been too bad in IVC
AS350, B733/4/7/8, B744/8, B762/3, B77E/L/W, B789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A346, A380, AT73/5/6, Q300, Q400, CR2/7, E190, S340, B1900C/D, E110 (E for epic)
NZ, EK, QF, SQ, UA, US, CO, FZ, FR, U2, BA, VA, VS, MH, EI, EY, LH, EN, NM, TG, GZ
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:57 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
77west wrote:

The folding wingtips are a standard feature, not optional or a feature that will be dropped. (unlike the original 777 folding tips offered in the 90's)


Yes so Boeing say, but they still haven't got a test frame so it still remains to be tested in real world terms with very real implications for airports and airlines alike if it doesn't work so well in practice, and there's no allowing for the almost inevitable delays from Boeing (as they have had for the last 20 years with new type rollouts). Boeing burned NZ big time with an 8 year delay to delivery if 787-9s, and NZ should be rightly concerned of the implications of another delay considering their fleet will already be around 20yo and they will already have to wait just to find a 77X slot amongst the EK/LH orders.

If I was ordering the fleet for the next 15 years or so it'd be
12 CS100s (domestic/ Non AKL international/IUE/NLK/CBR/HBA
10 A320s (domestic and international)
20 A321s (domestic and higher volume AKL international)
10 A350-900s East Coast US, NRT,LHR,YVR and Latin America
8 A350-1000 (LAX//IAH/SFO
13 787-9s for Shorthaul and HNL/DPS/SGN/MNL + lower yield/Y class biased markets below 10h

Interesting fleet. LHR would go on the A350-1000 list not the -900 seeing as how it does well with a 77W (unless you are talking about adding another service to U.K./EU to share the load?).
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ZKOJH
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:26 am

"Couple forced to give up seat on packed Air NZ flight for airline cabin crew"

An Auckland couple who were forced to choose which of them got off a packed Air New Zealand flight to make room for a cabin crew member are upset at the way they were treated.

Beth Chapman had done up her seatbelt on an Auckland-Queenstown flight when she was told she would have to leave the plane, even though she and her husband Peter had booked their seats about seven months in advance to go to a wedding.

He chose to go instead and was escorted off the plane by an Air New Zealand staff member.

The airline apologised to the couple, has given them some compensation and now publicly acknowledged it was an "unfortunate experience" for them.

Peter Chapman said he was still angry even though he did make it to Queenstown on an Air New Zealand flight later on February 22.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11837919

clearly if the ZQN route is doing well, maybe this is where they will put the A321'S lol to solve this issue.
Vietnam time..
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:21 am

Interesting fleet. LHR would go on the A350-1000 list not the -900 seeing as how it does well with a 77W (unless you are talking about adding another service to U.K./EU to share the load?).


I disagree that the 77W/359-1000 is totally suitable for LHR. if it weren't required on the AKL-LAX sector I am sure it would be better served by either 789 (Like VS and UA on same route). I would operate 10-12 a week LAX with A359-1000 and a daily 789/A350-900 for NZ2. At the same time I would make the second flight become a daytime turn in LAX for late afternoon/evening arrival back to AKL. There are plenty of us who would rather not waste an entire day and have to pay for late checkout by waiting until 10pm to depart. Daytime flights are better for working and if you get in at say 6pm you can sleep at normal time and back to work in am.
Flown to 128 Airports in 48 Countries on 81 Operators. Visited 56 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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LamboAston
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:03 am

ZKOJH wrote:
"Couple forced to give up seat on packed Air NZ flight for airline cabin crew"

An Auckland couple who were forced to choose which of them got off a packed Air New Zealand flight to make room for a cabin crew member are upset at the way they were treated.

Beth Chapman had done up her seatbelt on an Auckland-Queenstown flight when she was told she would have to leave the plane, even though she and her husband Peter had booked their seats about seven months in advance to go to a wedding.

He chose to go instead and was escorted off the plane by an Air New Zealand staff member.

The airline apologised to the couple, has given them some compensation and now publicly acknowledged it was an "unfortunate experience" for them.

Peter Chapman said he was still angry even though he did make it to Queenstown on an Air New Zealand flight later on February 22.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11837919

clearly if the ZQN route is doing well, maybe this is where they will put the A321'S lol to solve this issue.

Sounds familiar - I hope it hasn't carried through all of Star Alliance (United)
AS350, B733/4/7/8, B744/8, B762/3, B77E/L/W, B789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A346, A380, AT73/5/6, Q300, Q400, CR2/7, E190, S340, B1900C/D, E110 (E for epic)
NZ, EK, QF, SQ, UA, US, CO, FZ, FR, U2, BA, VA, VS, MH, EI, EY, LH, EN, NM, TG, GZ
 
sunrisevalley
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:38 pm

Does NZ have flight deck crew stationed in LAX or LHR?
 
sunrisevalley
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:53 pm

aerorobnz wrote:

I'm not yet convinced that the 778 (like the A358) will see the light of day, and the 779 is too big for NZ and in terms of AKL airport. In terms of pure 772/77W replacement I think the A350-1000 is closer to the mark for NZ right now,


Load range tables suggest the A350-1000 would come up ~ 500nm short at max. vol. payload LAX-AKL. Is this important? I don't know.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:10 pm

sunrisevalley wrote:
Does NZ have flight deck crew stationed in LAX or LHR?


No only a cabin crew base at LHR.
sunrisevalley wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:

I'm not yet convinced that the 778 (like the A358) will see the light of day, and the 779 is too big for NZ and in terms of AKL airport. In terms of pure 772/77W replacement I think the A350-1000 is closer to the mark for NZ right now,


Load range tables suggest the A350-1000 would come up ~ 500nm short at max. vol. payload LAX-AKL. Is this important? I don't know.


What is it for the 77W/772? Or a 275 seat 789?
 
sunrisevalley
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:08 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
What is it for the 77W/772? Or a 275 seat 789?


The 77W has a max vol. limited payload of ~ 68t; range 5700nm, the 77E ~52t; 5750nm; the 789 (275 seats) ~52t 5600nm
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:53 am

sunrisevalley wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
What is it for the 77W/772? Or a 275 seat 789?


The 77W has a max vol. limited payload of ~ 68t; range 5700nm, the 77E ~52t; 5750nm; the 789 (275 seats) ~52t 5600nm


What was the loading for the A350-1000 on LAX-AKL?

I'm not sure it matters because I don't think they will order them anyway.
 
tealnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:28 am

sunrisevalley wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
What is it for the 77W/772? Or a 275 seat 789?

The 77W has a max vol. limited payload of ~ 68t; range 5700nm, the 77E ~52t; 5750nm; the 789 (275 seats) ~52t 5600nm

A dumb question: Why are these "vol. limited" payload numbers? Aren't they just the numbers for max structural payload and range at max payload?

sunrisevalley wrote:
Load range tables suggest the A350-1000 would come up ~ 500nm short at max. vol. payload LAX-AKL. Is this important? I don't know.

I'm curious to know what numbers your tables give you for the A359 and A35K (on the same basis as 77W, 77E and 789). Unless I'm mistaken none of them will carry max structural payload LAX-AKL without a good tail wind.
 
sunrisevalley
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:36 pm

sunrisevalley wrote:
The 77W has a max vol. limited payload of ~ 68t; range 5700nm, the 77E ~52t; 5750nm; the 789 (275 seats) ~52t 5600nm


OOps.. the 77W value needs to be decreased by ~5t to reflect the weight of catering and crew.
 
sunrisevalley
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:39 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
What was the loading for the A350-1000 on LAX-AKL?


Assuming a 6000nm ESAD day , ~49t. As a point of reference the 77W is ~ 55t.
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 5392
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:15 pm

tealnz wrote:
A dumb question: Why are these "vol. limited" payload numbers? Aren't they just the numbers for max structural payload and range at max payload?

In reality it is not likely that a passenger airplane can get near max structural payload unless the freight is considerably more dense than the typical 160kg/m3. for passenger aircraft belly cargo. Available volume is reached well before available weight. Also much air cargo is based on dimension volume generally much less than the 160kg/m3. Add this to the difficulty to reach max structural payload.

tealnz wrote:
I'm curious to know what numbers your tables give you for the A359 and A35K (on the same basis as 77W, 77E and 789). Unless I'm mistaken none of them will carry max structural payload LAX-AKL without a good tail wind.


As I explained above achieving max structural payload is virtually impossible in typical circumstances. Assuming a 6000nm ESAD day LAX-AKL the A359 is ~42t and the A35J ~ 49t. The 789 based on empirical data is ~47t. Although I have an open mind on the table values that I have for the A359 and A35J.
 
Planesmart
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:40 pm

ZKOJH wrote:
"Couple forced to give up seat on packed Air NZ flight for airline cabin crew"

An Auckland couple who were forced to choose which of them got off a packed Air New Zealand flight to make room for a cabin crew member are upset at the way they were treated.

Beth Chapman had done up her seatbelt on an Auckland-Queenstown flight when she was told she would have to leave the plane, even though she and her husband Peter had booked their seats about seven months in advance to go to a wedding.

He chose to go instead and was escorted off the plane by an Air New Zealand staff member.

The airline apologised to the couple, has given them some compensation and now publicly acknowledged it was an "unfortunate experience" for them.

Peter Chapman said he was still angry even though he did make it to Queenstown on an Air New Zealand flight later on February 22.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11837919

clearly if the ZQN route is doing well, maybe this is where they will put the A321'S lol to solve this issue.

Given Air NZ is listed on United's T&C's (as sharing most of them), it's fortunate space was created without US-style drama and violence.
 
tealnz
Posts: 105
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:23 pm

Thanks mate. So to be clear, the original numbers were range at max payload? Meaning none of them, including 35K and 77W, can do Los Angeles-Auckland (using 6000nm ESAD) at max payload? And then the second set of numbers is payload @6000nm?
I think we still have a data issue, which we've debated before. The 789 has a MTOW of 254t; the 359 is now available at 280t, and the 35K is 308t. Your numbers have the 359 5t short of the 789 on LAX-AKL and the 35K - which airlines are buying as a 77W replacement - carrying only 2t more payload than the 789 on the same route. On these numbers the 359/35K are seriously overweight – which isn't what the market is telling us, to say the least. What gives?
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:28 pm

Is QF absolutely coining it with its 738s on the Tasman?

I fly on QF between AKL and SYD/MEL about 10 times per year on the 738. Usually in J; but it's not really J - the product is barely Y+ yet they charge J prices. Y is cramped right down to LCC levels. IFE is a joke. Fares are reasonable, but by no means dirt cheap. Yet, in spite of all the competition on the Tasman, the aircraft are *always* packed - it's rare there is a single spare seat.

Does anyone have any actual figures for QF on these routes?
 
sunrisevalley
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:17 pm

tealnz wrote:
Thanks mate. So to be clear, the original numbers were range at max payload? Meaning none of them, including 35K and 77W, can do Los Angeles-Auckland (using 6000nm ESAD) at max payload? And then the second set of numbers is payload @6000nm?

Right if you mean volume limited payload.

tealnz wrote:
I think we still have a data issue, which we've debated before. The 789 has a MTOW of 254t; the 359 is now available at 280t, and the 35K is 308t. Your numbers have the 359 5t short of the 789 on LAX-AKL and the 35K - which airlines are buying as a 77W replacement - carrying only 2t more payload than the 789 on the same route. On these numbers the 359/35K are seriously overweight – which isn't what the market is telling us, to say the least. What gives?

As I said I have an open mind on the data from the 359/35K tables. I would welcome empirical data verification of the 359 . My 789 data fits closely to examples that have been quoted , e.g. UA LAX -_MEL and the proposed PER- LHR route.
 
tealnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:05 am

sunrisevalley wrote:
tealnz wrote:
As I said I have an open mind on the data from the 359/35K tables. I would welcome empirical data verification of the 359 . My 789 data fits closely to examples that have been quoted , e.g. UA LAX -_MEL and the proposed PER- LHR route.

Here's a link http://s298.photobucket.com/user/ferpe_bucket/media/789343787-10and350-900realPilotsPRchart_zps75d2e53d.jpg.htmlto a payload/range chart from Ferpe with real-world assumptions on DOW, catering etc which may be useful: on his numbers the 789 has a slightly higher max payload than the 359 up to 5000nm. At 6000nm (your LAX-AKL example) the 359 is carrying 3-4t more than the 789 (which is roughly the difference in passenger capacity). The 789 payload/range curve here also looks consistent with operating routes such as LAX-MEL and SFO-SIN basically just with 245-250 pax and luggage westbound.
 
Luisvalero
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:17 am

Is there any posibility of BA launching AKL service? This route was operated in the past, but i can see BA serving New zealand again Maybe as a tag of it's SIN service with B787-9. I Think LHR-SIN-AKL could do fine competing against EK and QR
 
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77west
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:57 am

Luisvalero wrote:
Is there any posibility of BA launching AKL service? This route was operated in the past, but i can see BA serving New zealand again Maybe as a tag of it's SIN service with B787-9. I Think LHR-SIN-AKL could do fine competing against EK and QR


I used to love BA, but with their recent race to the bottom in service, I know who I would choose if I had the option of BA vs NZ/SQ, EK or QR.
77West - AW109S - BE90 - JS31 - B1900 - Q300 - ATR72 - DC9-30 - MD80 - B733 - A320 - B738 - A300-B4 - B773 - B77W
 
Luisvalero
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:09 am

77west wrote:
Luisvalero wrote:
Is there any posibility of BA launching AKL service? This route was operated in the past, but i can see BA serving New zealand again Maybe as a tag of it's SIN service with B787-9. I Think LHR-SIN-AKL could do fine competing against EK and QR


I used to love BA, but with their recent race to the bottom in service, I know who I would choose if I had the option of BA vs NZ/SQ, EK or QR.


Yes, but UK should have a direct flight to New Zealand. Historical Ties+Business+Tourism could guarantee the sucess of the route. It's like IB with it's Latin american network. IB can't stop flying to SCL, even if is so far, because there is demand and strong Ties with spain. I Think the same happens with BA in AKL, so it should start a direct flight
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:49 am

I just can't see BA Serving AKL again though the rumour pops up here from time to time. LHR-KUL-AKL was the last rumour IIRC.

Good mix of traffic and high demand but you have 15/20 airlines offering 1 stop via their hubs.

IB can serve SCL non stop from MAD so quite different.

UK have a direct flight to AKL NZ1/2 via LAX, they sell it more as 2 sectors AKl-LAX and LAX-LHR as its higher yielding than AKL-LHR itself. That is best left to the rest.
 
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77west
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:09 am

Luisvalero wrote:
77west wrote:
Luisvalero wrote:
Is there any posibility of BA launching AKL service? This route was operated in the past, but i can see BA serving New zealand again Maybe as a tag of it's SIN service with B787-9. I Think LHR-SIN-AKL could do fine competing against EK and QR


I used to love BA, but with their recent race to the bottom in service, I know who I would choose if I had the option of BA vs NZ/SQ, EK or QR.


Yes, but UK should have a direct flight to New Zealand. Historical Ties+Business+Tourism could guarantee the sucess of the route. It's like IB with it's Latin american network. IB can't stop flying to SCL, even if is so far, because there is demand and strong Ties with spain. I Think the same happens with BA in AKL, so it should start a direct flight


IB has little competition on their Lat American services. The kangaroo / kiwi route from Europe to AU/NZ is saturated with carriers, some far better than BA in service and frequency. Why would I want to go on a BA 787 via SIN when I could take a comfortable A380 on EK with only one stop in DXB? Or on SQ for that matter. Or even NZ via LAX on a 77W. Perhaps in future, I don't see it before the early 2020s if it happens at all.
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aerorobnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:13 am

There's no point,
1) BA would be competing for the bottom of the barrel low yield stuff,
2) their inflight product beaten comprehensively across the classes by just about every single airline serving AKL.
3) They have long since dropped out of the travel consciousness of New Zealand travellers - a few people use BA ex SYD to SIN on QF codeshare tickets but it isn't more than a handful.
4) Most importantly they have QF/MH/AA/CX/LA serving the market with BA codeshares. BA flies to SYD/KUL/LAX/HKG and SCL already.
Flown to 128 Airports in 48 Countries on 81 Operators. Visited 56 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Luisvalero
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:57 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
There's no point,
1) BA would be competing for the bottom of the barrel low yield stuff,
2) their inflight product beaten comprehensively across the classes by just about every single airline serving AKL.
3) They have long since dropped out of the travel consciousness of New Zealand travellers - a few people use BA ex SYD to SIN on QF codeshare tickets but it isn't more than a handful.
4) Most importantly they have QF/MH/AA/CX/LA serving the market with BA codeshares. BA flies to SYD/KUL/LAX/HKG and SCL already.


If AKL doesn't work for BA due to competition (QR, EK, Thai, Malaysia, SQ, KE, & chinese carriers), how can BA sustain it's Daily LHR-SIN-SYD which is absolutely mad in competition being SYD served by most of the carriers in Asia?
There's a Huge list of Airlines competing against BA on the kangaroo route, one of the reasons why Virgin Atlantic leaved. Kangaroo route Airlines (to SYD) are:

1. Emirates.
2. Etihad Airways
3. Qatar Airways
4. Air India
5. Thai Airways International
6. Vietnam Airlines
7. Malaysia Airlines
8. Singapore Arlines
9. Garuda Indonesia
10. Philippine Airlines
11. EVA Air
12. China Airlines (future LGW-TPE-SYD)
13. Cathay Pacific
14. China Eastern
15. China Southern
16. Air China
17. Korean Air
18. Asiana Airlines
19. All Nippon Airways
20. Japan Airlines

20 competitors! This is insane! And we have also QF LHR-DXB-SYD, + DL, AA, UA, AC, LATAM
 
sunrisevalley
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2017

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:58 pm

tealnz wrote:

Thanks for this. It is a Ferpe chart I have not seen before . Do you know when it dates from? Do I correctly understand it to say for the 789 that the DOW components for crew,cabin and IFE is 3.5t and for catering is 3.6t for a total of 7.1t ? Does the payload column include these or are they additional weight over and above?

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Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos