Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
LotsaRunway wrote:And what if flights out of PVD become cheaper to key market than out of Logan?
airbazar wrote:I think people are making too much out of this PVD growth. Most of it based on the premise that DY will succeed. Lets wait a bit first to see whether DY will stick around or not, after the teaser fares and subsidies expire.
airbazar wrote:I think people are making too much out of this PVD growth. Most of it based on the premise that DY will succeed. Lets wait a bit first to see whether DY will stick around or not, after the teaser fares and subsidies expire.
FlyUSAir wrote:Don't worry, BDL will still win in the end.
airbazar wrote:I think people are making too much out of this PVD growth. Most of it based on the premise that DY will succeed. Lets wait a bit first to see whether DY will stick around or not, after the teaser fares and subsidies expire.
FlyUSAir wrote:Don't worry, BDL will still win in the end.
RL757PVD wrote:airbazar wrote:I think people are making too much out of this PVD growth. Most of it based on the premise that DY will succeed. Lets wait a bit first to see whether DY will stick around or not, after the teaser fares and subsidies expire.
We know where your allegiance lie, but 13 new nonstop routes and 3 new airlines in the past 6 months outpaces what has happened in the last 12+ years.
Take D8 out of the equation and you still have 2 new ULCC's entering 4 unserved destinations (not counting F9 MCO).
The quantity of the seats might not be overly impressive under the shadow of a BOS, but the business decision to chose PVD over other regional choices is significant (again even taking out D8 for you).
cheapgreek wrote:FlyUSAir wrote:Don't worry, BDL will still win in the end.
I don't worry about BDL. PVD has a much larger population base to draw from unlike BDL which is located in the middle of tobacco fields. PVD is two minutes away from I-95, the busiest highway in New England. I have used both and PVD wins hands down.
airbazar wrote:Uh? I'm not 12. I have no allegiance. I live by the NH/MA border and I'm not even originally from New England. PVD is never an option for me and I couldn't care less whether it succeeds or not. The reality is that southern MA and RI economy is not all that great. Condor tried and failed European service last year. Even SATA with the huge market that it has can only sustain once weekly service for 10 weeks out of the year. Norwegian is getting nearly 5 million $$$ in incentives over 3 years. If you think without that money they would be in PVD you're dreaming. And because it's RI, their recent history with incentives is not that great (38 Studios). And correct me if I'm wrong but most of these are seasonal, non-daily? Some only 1x or 2x weekly?
So, it's great that airlines are giving it a shot but I'll hold the fireworks until these routes can survive on their own without the subsidies.
lavalampluva wrote:Does PVD have the Customs and Immigration facilities to handle this? I know that S4 and VR have international arrivals, but both of them have VERY few flights and definitely nothing daily. Add DY into the mix and it might take a while to get through customs.
jplatts wrote:Will Southwest Airlines add nonstop service from PVD to ATL? PVD, along with OMA and CVG, are among some of the largest markets out of ATL that Southwest does not currently fly to nonstop out of ATL.
lat41 wrote:airbazar wrote:I think people are making too much out of this PVD growth. Most of it based on the premise that DY will succeed. Lets wait a bit first to see whether DY will stick around or not, after the teaser fares and subsidies expire.
The Mid and Southern New England area is one of the most densely populated and business heavy regions in the country and though the parochial Bostonians may sniff and assert that no viable air service can possibly be be introduced beyond BOS Logan, times, they are a' changin'. Every bit of commerce in these parts does not have to go through one airport.
Midwestindy wrote:These are pretty hefty incentives for seasonal/non-daily routes:
"To land the new flights, the Airport Corporation has agreed to pay Norwegian its standard incentive of $750,000 for each new route, Ahmad said. The payments, which Norwegian agreed to have spread over three years, would come to $3.75 million for the five routes, but must be used on flight marketing. RIAC IS ALSO WAVING Norwegian’s LANDING FEES for two years."
"Norwegian is also eligible to apply for cash through the state’s $1.5-million Air Service Development Fund. Matt Sheaff, a spokesman for the Rhode Island Commerce Corporation, said the airline is expected to do so."
"A request by phone and email about the incentives provided to Frontier for their service was not returned Wednesday," who knows what that means...
No information was released on the amount of incentives received by G4 to start service to PVD..
I feel as if the airlines are taking advantage of the fact that PVD was been underserved in the past, and therefore they are price gouging PVD for new service left and right....
PVD is large enough that it shouldn't have to offer these types of incentives
Hopefully the airport didn't offer incentives to G4...
Midwestindy wrote:These are pretty hefty incentives for seasonal/non-daily routes:
"To land the new flights, the Airport Corporation has agreed to pay Norwegian its standard incentive of $750,000 for each new route, Ahmad said. The payments, which Norwegian agreed to have spread over three years, would come to $3.75 million for the five routes, but must be used on flight marketing. RIAC IS ALSO WAVING Norwegian’s LANDING FEES for two years."
RL757PVD wrote:Midwestindy wrote:These are pretty hefty incentives for seasonal/non-daily routes:
"To land the new flights, the Airport Corporation has agreed to pay Norwegian its standard incentive of $750,000 for each new route, Ahmad said. The payments, which Norwegian agreed to have spread over three years, would come to $3.75 million for the five routes, but must be used on flight marketing. RIAC IS ALSO WAVING Norwegian’s LANDING FEES for two years."
I am fairly certain that is inaccurate reporting and either includes the $1.5 Mil and/or fee waivers in the $750K or each route. I don't think the airport is flush with cash following a decade of low enplanements.
RL757PVD wrote:airbazar wrote:Uh? I'm not 12. I have no allegiance. I live by the NH/MA border and I'm not even originally from New England. PVD is never an option for me and I couldn't care less whether it succeeds or not. The reality is that southern MA and RI economy is not all that great. Condor tried and failed European service last year. Even SATA with the huge market that it has can only sustain once weekly service for 10 weeks out of the year. Norwegian is getting nearly 5 million $$$ in incentives over 3 years. If you think without that money they would be in PVD you're dreaming. And because it's RI, their recent history with incentives is not that great (38 Studios). And correct me if I'm wrong but most of these are seasonal, non-daily? Some only 1x or 2x weekly?
So, it's great that airlines are giving it a shot but I'll hold the fireworks until these routes can survive on their own without the subsidies.
There are so many "alternative facts" in this rant, I don't know where to begin...
1) Condor failed because not 1 but 2 airlines with higher costs and lower fares entered the BOS market, its not sustainable and you can't compete with that. EW failed so hard they pulled out early in the same season. Without EW and AB, DE would still be at PVD.
2) SATA doubled their season at PVD this year and it will be their longest season ever (late may to end of sept). I fully suspect as BOS fills up, S4 will add PVD frequencies, also with the 321's that will further help, as it is the perfect aircraft for it.
3) Norwegian did not get nearly that much cash, and the FAA does not allow of incentives beyond 2 years anyway. All airports incentive programs require FAA approval and to be made available on a equal paying field. They weren't getting into BOS and PSM doesn't offer the same catchment, making PVD the obvious choice for what they want to attempt.
4) BGO and BFS are summer PTP and FDF are winter, the lowest D8 and G4 frequency is 2x, ORK, DUB, EDI and maybe SNN are all 3-5x in the peak. F9's are daily.
5) While you claim no biases, you clearly have a bone to pick, so stick to actual facts next time. You consistently negative comments come across as a BOS fanboy that actually views PVD as a threat.
cheapgreek wrote:FlyUSAir wrote:Don't worry, BDL will still win in the end.
I don't worry about BDL. PVD has a much larger population base to draw from unlike BDL which is located in the middle of tobacco fields. PVD is two minutes away from I-95, the busiest highway in New England. I have used both and PVD wins hands down.
FlyUSAir wrote:PVD can't even support flights west of Chicago (although F9 is adding Denver, we'll see how that does).
FlyUSAir wrote:cheapgreek wrote:FlyUSAir wrote:Don't worry, BDL will still win in the end.
I don't worry about BDL. PVD has a much larger population base to draw from unlike BDL which is located in the middle of tobacco fields. PVD is two minutes away from I-95, the busiest highway in New England. I have used both and PVD wins hands down.
Not at all. BDL draws traffic from Massachusetts (Boston) and all of CT. PVD only draws some of Boston, Rhode Island, and some of Eastern CT. PVD can't even support flights west of Chicago (although F9 is adding Denver, we'll see how that does).
cheapgreek wrote:FlyUSAir wrote:cheapgreek wrote:
I don't worry about BDL. PVD has a much larger population base to draw from unlike BDL which is located in the middle of tobacco fields. PVD is two minutes away from I-95, the busiest highway in New England. I have used both and PVD wins hands down.
Not at all. BDL draws traffic from Massachusetts (Boston) and all of CT. PVD only draws some of Boston, Rhode Island, and some of Eastern CT. PVD can't even support flights west of Chicago (although F9 is adding Denver, we'll see how that does).
Boston to BDL is 111 miles, Boston to PVD is 59 miles. Can't imagine Bostonian's choosing a 111 mile drive when BOS and PVD are much closer and offer many more flight options. Also not all of CT. uses BDL, Bridgeport and towns due west use much nearer HPN. When the HVN's law suit is decided and the runway is upgraded, much of New Haven county will use HVN. BDL is about 15 miles from the Massachusetts state line, hardly a centrally located airport for the entire state.
cheapgreek wrote:FlyUSAir wrote:Don't worry, BDL will still win in the end.
I don't worry about BDL. PVD has a much larger population base to draw from unlike BDL which is located in the middle of tobacco fields. PVD is two minutes away from I-95, the busiest highway in New England. I have used both and PVD wins hands down.
CairnterriAIR wrote:cheapgreek wrote:FlyUSAir wrote:Don't worry, BDL will still win in the end.
I don't worry about BDL. PVD has a much larger population base to draw from unlike BDL which is located in the middle of tobacco fields. PVD is two minutes away from I-95, the busiest highway in New England. I have used both and PVD wins hands down.
I get the feeling you are not a fan of BDL. Yes, there are fields around the airport.....but there are plenty of us ol' farmin' folks livin' in these parts. Couple million of us in the catchment area of that ol' place where the airplanes go! Swing on through during our great state fair in the fall.....we fire a mean BBQ!
cheapgreek wrote:When your destination is the New Haven area, BDL is quite a bit out of the way. Been up to the big E in the past but BDL is not near a good part of the state is all I am trying to say. Friends in the New London-Groton area find PVD is best and closest for them. BDL ran billboards in Fairfield county saying "come home to Bradley". Being almost up in Massachusetts is hardly home for that segment of the population.
airbazar wrote:True Real Fact: Condor failed. Regardless of the reasons.
I never said they didn't go back and read what I said
True Real Fact: It's still just 1x weekly. The proposed second weekly has not yet started. Will it start? Who knows, it's SATA. I'll reserve judgment on them operating an A321 when I see it. The A310's were supposed to have all been replaced years ago.
They still doubled the length of last years season which is completely inconsistent with your comments
True Real Fact: I didn't say cash, I said incentives. 3.75 million in marketing over 3 years. 1.5 million in cash access. And waived landing fees for 2 years.
http://www.providencejournal.com/news/2 ... his-summer
The incentive amounts are not out of line for any airport of similar size, especially with the majority being fee waivers. People freak out over the dollar amounts but never realize they are giving up money that isn't coming in right now anyways. Those gates and counters were sitting empty.
I did present facts. Your bias however (and your user name says it all), sees my facts as bias.
The reality is that not even UA with $11million(?) in incentives was able to make EWR-BFS work, so excuse me if I'm a little skeptical about Norwegian's success at PVD.
330west wrote:It's great that PVD has picked up all of this additional service however the offerings are still pretty slim. I live in downtown Providence, 15 minutes from the airport, and I've only used Green five or six times compared to at least sixty trips out of Logan in the three years I've lived here. I did book Norwegian to Dublin in September at some obscenely low price only because I wanted to travel the rest of the group I'm going to Ireland with so I'm genuinely curious to see how that does.
airbazar wrote:At the end of the day people will use whatever airport is most "convenient" and i put that in quotes because it means different things to different people. Some people look at nothing but price while others factor in things like schedule and non-stops. I once drove from where I live in the Merrimack Valley to LGA to fly to MIA because it was school vacation in Mass and airfares from any NE airport were in the $600 range while from LGA they were $200. Multiply that x3 and it was well worth the 4 hour drive each way. But in no way do I make a habit of doing that
cheapgreek wrote:FlyUSAir wrote:cheapgreek wrote:
I don't worry about BDL. PVD has a much larger population base to draw from unlike BDL which is located in the middle of tobacco fields. PVD is two minutes away from I-95, the busiest highway in New England. I have used both and PVD wins hands down.
Not at all. BDL draws traffic from Massachusetts (Boston) and all of CT. PVD only draws some of Boston, Rhode Island, and some of Eastern CT. PVD can't even support flights west of Chicago (although F9 is adding Denver, we'll see how that does).
Boston to BDL is 111 miles, Boston to PVD is 59 miles. Can't imagine Bostonian's choosing a 111 mile drive when BOS and PVD are much closer and offer many more flight options. Also not all of CT. uses BDL, Bridgeport and towns due west use much nearer HPN. When the HVN's law suit is decided and the runway is upgraded, much of New Haven county will use HVN. BDL is about 15 miles from the Massachusetts state line, hardly a centrally located airport for the entire state.
B752OS wrote:cheapgreek wrote:FlyUSAir wrote:
Not at all. BDL draws traffic from Massachusetts (Boston) and all of CT. PVD only draws some of Boston, Rhode Island, and some of Eastern CT. PVD can't even support flights west of Chicago (although F9 is adding Denver, we'll see how that does).
Boston to BDL is 111 miles, Boston to PVD is 59 miles. Can't imagine Bostonian's choosing a 111 mile drive when BOS and PVD are much closer and offer many more flight options. Also not all of CT. uses BDL, Bridgeport and towns due west use much nearer HPN. When the HVN's law suit is decided and the runway is upgraded, much of New Haven county will use HVN. BDL is about 15 miles from the Massachusetts state line, hardly a centrally located airport for the entire state.
PVD does not offer many more flight options than BDL when we look at the North America. BDL has non-stops to places like MSP, RDU, LAX, seasonal service to SFO, CLE, YYZ, YUL, SJU, DFW - all places that PVD is not connected to.
BDL serves the Hartford metro area and Western Massachusetts - namely the Berkshires and the Springfield area.
B752OS wrote:Interestingly, today I saw a flight departing to BDL and the FIDS screen said Hartford-Springfield, I found that interesting.BDL serves the Hartford metro area and Western Massachusetts - namely the Berkshires and the Springfield area.
PVD757 wrote:330west: I am curious as the reasons why your travel is so heavily skewed towards BOS versus PVD. I know of many people who prefer BOS for long distance travel or for very particular destinations of travel based on nonstop service or fares, is that the case with you?
330west wrote:PVD757 wrote:330west: I am curious as the reasons why your travel is so heavily skewed towards BOS versus PVD. I know of many people who prefer BOS for long distance travel or for very particular destinations of travel based on nonstop service or fares, is that the case with you?
To an extent it is. About half of those 60+ trips out of Logan were to London(and beyond into Europe connecting at Heathrow), Los Angeles and Hong Kong. Otherwise though it's the greater depth of connecting opportunities. I fly almost exclusively American and their limited offerings from Providence often don't work with my schedule or give me impossibly short or excessively long layovers(there are only so many vodka sodas I can drink in the AC). I also detest Philadelphia which further limits my options. I'll be starting an engagement in DC in the fall so for that I'll use Green.
PVD757 wrote:A330west: Thanks for the feedback and good to hear you'll be using PVD or your DCA trips this fall. At 7 roundtrips, the schedule is decent. It would be great if AA added DFW and MIA and a mid day ORD to compliment their existing service.
PatrickZ80 wrote:330west wrote:PVD757 wrote:330west: I am curious as the reasons why your travel is so heavily skewed towards BOS versus PVD. I know of many people who prefer BOS for long distance travel or for very particular destinations of travel based on nonstop service or fares, is that the case with you?
To an extent it is. About half of those 60+ trips out of Logan were to London(and beyond into Europe connecting at Heathrow), Los Angeles and Hong Kong. Otherwise though it's the greater depth of connecting opportunities. I fly almost exclusively American and their limited offerings from Providence often don't work with my schedule or give me impossibly short or excessively long layovers(there are only so many vodka sodas I can drink in the AC). I also detest Philadelphia which further limits my options. I'll be starting an engagement in DC in the fall so for that I'll use Green.
So in other words, the fare isn't the most important thing when you book a ticket. You prefer convenience over a lower fare.