SFOtoORD wrote:

aaflyer777 wrote:

Reducing pitch in first class...guess they don't care about the transcon market!

There is certainly nothing terrible about the AS experience, but they won't be retaining a lot of the committed VX business travelers I know. Maybe they are fine with that, but it's going to be a long road for them in SFO until they combine terminals in 2019.

Where would the committed VX business travelers go? VX won't be there anymore. Where there are other options, will they all move to AA/UA/DL/B6 Mint?

On the issue of the terminal at SFO, I agree it would be a long road if only "Alaska" exists while still in divided terminals. My thought is the retention of the VX name until 2019 may be partly pending the simultaneous consolidation into one terminal.

In the meanwhile, I imagine they will fully codeshare on each other's flights, which will have the same "passenger ping pong" effect other codeshare (and merging) airlines have been dealing with when in different terminals everywhere. Consistent disclosure of the Operating Carrier can help that, but only if folks read their paperwork.

aaflyer777 wrote:

Reducing pitch in first class...guess they don't care about the transcon market!

I had high hopes that AAG would take a queue from VX on the First Class product, alas that is not so. I am a loyal AS flier & pay for F most of the time, I am willing to pay more to get a better product. As an investor I'm concerned about the return of that loyal VX customer base.

Will Alaska Airlines still be at Dallas Love Field subsequent to the retirement of the Virgin America brand, or will it move Virgin America's LAX, SFO, and LAS nonstops to DFW Airport?

If Alaska Airlines remains at Dallas Love Field subsequent to the integration of Virgin America into the Alaska brand, will Alaska be adding nonstop service between its main hub in Seattle and Dallas Love Field?

I think that Alaska will pull out of New York LaGuardia and discontinue Virgin America's LGA-DAL nonstop flights because the geographical restrictions at LaGuardia prohibit Alaska Airlines and Virgin America from operating nonstop flights from LaGuardia to the west coast and because a connection at Dallas Love Field is out of the way for those connecting to Alaska's main hub in Seattle and Alaska's hub in Portland from LaGuardia.

Will Alaska Airlines add nonstop service from JFK to Portland? Alaska will have nonstops from JFK to SEA, SFO, LAX, and possibly LAS subsequent to the integration of Virgin America into Alaska Airlines, but Alaska does not currently have nonstop service from JFK to PDX.

RWA380 wrote:

aaflyer777 wrote:

Reducing pitch in first class...guess they don't care about the transcon market!

I had high hopes that AAG would take a queue from VX on the First Class product, alas that is not so. I am a loyal AS flier & pay for F most of the time, I am willing to pay more to get a better product. As an investor I'm concerned about the return of that loyal VX customer base.

As one who pays for F most of the time, you probably are in a minority. However for those that upgrade, this change to more seats improves the odds of getting that upgrade. And AS will be adding the upgrade option on the VX flights, so the demand overall is going to pick up.

While I didn't see pics in the News Release that was linked in here, go to the Alaska website and go into the announcement there. Scrolling down, there are pics (mock-ups or artist images) of the new AS cabin, which you may find agreeable. It may not be what VX has, but looks a big step up from what AS has now. I'm in AS F PDX-DFW in September as part of a European trip, and wish the new seats were already going to be there!

vhtje wrote:

As I see it, there are three options.

Option 1. Drop Virgin America brand and consolidate under Alaska name
Pros:
- less confusing for flying public
- cheaper as not paying royalties to the Virgin Group for use of the name
- maintains strong Alaska identity and brand goodwill
- lower marketing costs cf maintaining two brands
- able to consolidate fleet/cross-fleet
Cons:
- loss of 'cool and groovy' VX image (although incorporation of some VX amenities into AS would alleviate this)

Option 2: Drop Alaska brand and keep Virgin America brand
Pros:
- less confusing for flying public
- lower marketing costs cf maintaining two brands
- maintains VX 'cool and groovy' identity and brand goodwill
- able to consolidate fleet/cross-fleet
Cons:
- loss of very strong AS image (this is a huge con in my view - bigger than the con for option 1)
- still liable to Virgin Group for rights to use Virgin name

Option 3: Maintain both brands
Pros:
- maintains strong Alaska identity and brand goodwill
- maintains VX 'cool and groovy' identity and brand goodwill
Cons:
- still liable to Virgin Group for rights to use Virgin name
- confusion for the flying public
- makes cross-fleeting difficult and expensive
- expense of running two separate marketing and brand channels

I think, on balance, Option 1 is the winner. Shall we place bets?

Def. #1. Probably means we'll see Chester on the Airbii, at least for awhile.

God why do US airlines insist on calling their business class seats "first class". I was confused as to how they got 8-12 F class seats onto a narrowbody.

downdata wrote:

God why do US airlines insist on calling their business class seats "first class". I was confused as to how they got 8-12 F class seats onto a narrowbody.

Domestic First is different than INTL First. Nobody could possibly expect (or even realistically think there was a possibility of) getting INTL first seats on your typical SFO-DAL flight.

Wingtips56 wrote:

SFOtoORD wrote:

aaflyer777 wrote:

Reducing pitch in first class...guess they don't care about the transcon market!

There is certainly nothing terrible about the AS experience, but they won't be retaining a lot of the committed VX business travelers I know. Maybe they are fine with that, but it's going to be a long road for them in SFO until they combine terminals in 2019.

Where would the committed VX business travelers go? VX won't be there anymore. Where there are other options, will they all move to AA/UA/DL/B6 Mint?

On the issue of the terminal at SFO, I agree it would be a long road if only "Alaska" exists while still in divided terminals. My thought is the retention of the VX name until 2019 may be partly pending the simultaneous consolidation into one terminal.

According to this article to why they are keeping the VX name until 2019: http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco ... j=77723061

The combined carrier will adopt Alaska Airlines’ name and logo, with the Virgin America name likely making its final landing in 2019. Alaska is waiting for government authorization to operate as one carrier and has said the full integration will take about two years.

Wingtips56 wrote:

SFOtoORD wrote:

aaflyer777 wrote:

Reducing pitch in first class...guess they don't care about the transcon market!

There is certainly nothing terrible about the AS experience, but they won't be retaining a lot of the committed VX business travelers I know. Maybe they are fine with that, but it's going to be a long road for them in SFO until they combine terminals in 2019.

Where would the committed VX business travelers go? VX won't be there anymore. Where there are other options, will they all move to AA/UA/DL/B6 Mint?

On the issue of the terminal at SFO, I agree it would be a long road if only "Alaska" exists while still in divided terminals. My thought is the retention of the VX name until 2019 may be partly pending the simultaneous consolidation into one terminal.

In the meanwhile, I imagine they will fully codeshare on each other's flights, which will have the same "passenger ping pong" effect other codeshare (and merging) airlines have been dealing with when in different terminals everywhere. Consistent disclosure of the Operating Carrier can help that, but only if folks read their paperwork.

If they fly to NYC often esp in paid premium classes they'll go to the airlines you listed. If they go elsewhere likely UA. I don't think they'll all leave, but the loyalty will fade.

Does anyone else think the cup holder is odd? I couldn't imagine the beautiful Alessi glassware Delta is rolling out being put in a cup holder. And the cup holder in my car can get gross fast...and I'm usually the only one using it.

https://www.facebook.com/alaskaairlines/posts/10155133716632486
It's nice, but the Alaskan flair is completely gone. No more tapestry design on the bulkheads.

MesserJ wrote:

https://www.facebook.com/alaskaairlines/posts/10155133716632486
It's nice, but the Alaskan flair is completely gone. No more tapestry design on the bulkheads.

I've always really liked that bulkhead pattern. It always felt homey--a comforting way to start/end a trip.

Still no AS A320 rendering? C'mon AS, throw us A.netters a bone! We want to see "Proudly all Boeing" written on an Airbus

Anyone else think just having a footrest as opposed to a leg rest on the new FC seats is a bit of a letdown? Especially when they're flying routes where some competitors offer lie-flat.

I think an interesting aspect for me is how will this new brand carry over to their intra-alaska flying? It's a whole different world over there that is predicated more on utility than product differentiation. I'd imagine it will take a lot longer for this new brand to adapt to their flying up there than their "hipper" west coast hubs.

I'm also excited about the expansion of MileagePlan. AS has always had one of the best FF programs and their expansion out west will provide a lot more value now.

How will the Alaska experience be on the Embraer and Q400 fleet, which seem like will comprise a significant percentage of their flying?

SFOtoORD wrote:

airzona11 wrote:

Seems to be changes in line with improving the AS experience, already a great one.

SFOtoORD wrote:

Agreed. This is a pivotal moment for the future of AS at SFO. In my mind it was always a given that the VX brand would go away not only because of the "Virgin" licensing fee, but also because AS is far larger and more established.

However, my big question was whether AS would take this moment to dramatically improve their brand and experience or make a couple small incremental improvements. It sounds like it will be the latter. There is certainly nothing terrible about the AS experience, but they won't be retaining a lot of the committed VX business travelers I know. Maybe they are fine with that, but it's going to be a long road for them in SFO until they combine terminals in 2019.

I am not sure business travelers are going to abandon the new airline because they can fly to more destinations, get upgraded more, utilize more partners to use and earn miles on. And have a Y+ option. If business travelers were only choosing because of the first class seat, current VX is basically the same as all the majors and those travelers are flying AA, UA, B6, DL between SFO/LAX - NYC/BOS.

I actually think this new product is going to be more considerably more attractive to frequent / business travelers.

I don't think you understand the loyal VX customer. For most of them it's about the onboard experience. AS is fine (if not drab), but it's not going to appeal to that crew. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but I know a ton of loyal VX fliers and this is why they chose VX over UA. Without the onboard product, UA has many advantages over AS that include network, frequency, international and better long haul product to NYC. UA has its issues on the service side, but they are improving. I think AS will do fine with the leisure crowd and they'll certainly get some business customers, but it will not be the same VX contingent.

Although it sounds like you think the cabin product will be a downgrade, the press release is not clear about that at all. Perhaps the absence of a seatback tv at some point in the future (but free streaming on all devices makes up for that in my book), but otherwise the products are remarkably similar, especially in First. VX's First product was no more compelling than AS', so I don't see how it's a downgrade from what these folks were already used to.

I think the most salient and compelling point on that press release (whether the VX folks know it or not) is that joining the AS Mileage Plan is a giant upgrade. Considering how generous the Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan is, if I was a VX frequent flyer, especially for business, I would be crying for joy right about now. I take your point that these folks may not be as price sensitive as a typical flyer but I sincerely doubt they are as impervious to being offered free things and getting a good deal as you would have us believe. I think they will be very happy with what AS can offer them, especially through Mileage Plan benefits.

legacyins wrote:

According to this article to why they are keeping the VX name until 2019: http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco ... j=77723061

The combined carrier will adopt Alaska Airlines’ name and logo, with the Virgin America name likely making its final landing in 2019. Alaska is waiting for government authorization to operate as one carrier and has said the full integration will take about two years.

Thats never really been an issue. Legally Virgin America could operate a plane painted with the AS Livery, with an AS interior, that boards from an AS gate, and is sold on Alaskaair.com, they'd just have to put a sticker on the side of the plane "Operated by Virgin America".

The opposite is also possible Southwest and AirTran Airways operated as two brands for a while after they were merged into the same airline, it was just AirTran Airways operated by Southwest Airlines.

This is the same thing that lets QX operate plane painted in AS's livery, etc, etc.

On FT, someone wrote that at the employee Q&A, it was explained that they didn't think it was worth the investment to do flatbeds on transcons. Interesting move.

What I don't get from this press release though, is this: is VX going to slowly be phased out the same way WN phased out FL? In other words, will planes gradually go in for new paint and interiors and join the AS fleet, and as that's happening, then VX routes will be taken over by AS service and metal?

b6sea wrote:

SFOtoORD wrote:

airzona11 wrote:

Seems to be changes in line with improving the AS experience, already a great one.



I am not sure business travelers are going to abandon the new airline because they can fly to more destinations, get upgraded more, utilize more partners to use and earn miles on. And have a Y+ option. If business travelers were only choosing because of the first class seat, current VX is basically the same as all the majors and those travelers are flying AA, UA, B6, DL between SFO/LAX - NYC/BOS.

I actually think this new product is going to be more considerably more attractive to frequent / business travelers.

I don't think you understand the loyal VX customer. For most of them it's about the onboard experience. AS is fine (if not drab), but it's not going to appeal to that crew. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but I know a ton of loyal VX fliers and this is why they chose VX over UA. Without the onboard product, UA has many advantages over AS that include network, frequency, international and better long haul product to NYC. UA has its issues on the service side, but they are improving. I think AS will do fine with the leisure crowd and they'll certainly get some business customers, but it will not be the same VX contingent.

Although it sounds like you think the cabin product will be a downgrade, the press release is not clear about that at all. Perhaps the absence of a seatback tv at some point in the future (but free streaming on all devices makes up for that in my book), but otherwise the products are remarkably similar, especially in First. VX's First product was no more compelling than AS', so I don't see how it's a downgrade from what these folks were already used to.

I think the most salient and compelling point on that press release (whether the VX folks know it or not) is that joining the AS Mileage Plan is a giant upgrade. Considering how generous the Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan is, if I was a VX frequent flyer, especially for business, I would be crying for joy right about now. I take your point that these folks may not be as price sensitive as a typical flyer but I sincerely doubt they are as impervious to being offered free things and getting a good deal as you would have us believe. I think they will be very happy with what AS can offer them, especially through Mileage Plan benefits.

You can rationalize how you like, but your rationale won't jive w VX loyalists. Just your statement about the VX F product is so far off base. AS has clearly made their choices on this transition and they'll have to live with that. It may be fine, but it's not a like-for-like with VX.

'Scuse if this has been brought up--what soft drink brand does each airline serve now?

b6sea wrote:

I think the most salient and compelling point on that press release (whether the VX folks know it or not) is that joining the AS Mileage Plan is a giant upgrade. Considering how generous the Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan is, if I was a VX frequent flyer, especially for business, I would be crying for joy right about now. I take your point that these folks may not be as price sensitive as a typical flyer but I sincerely doubt they are as impervious to being offered free things and getting a good deal as you would have us believe. I think they will be very happy with what AS can offer them, especially through Mileage Plan benefits.

You're joking, right?

Every single Virgin America loyalist that I've talked to has been extremely disappointed by the merger. Many are simply not going to fly Alaska. They are going to fly other airlines instead.

99% of people don't make their flying decisions based on frequent flyer programs. Doesn't matter how good the Mileage Plan program is. No IFE, crappier First Class seats, no more order-on-demand. Those are the things that Virgin fliers will notice.

TWA772LR wrote:

Virgin Alaska

I can see some kind of IAG style set up where the brands are separate, bUT every single other aspect is integrated including seniority. They'll probably shift the focus of VX east to keep the intraCalifornia flying under the AS brand.

I think you have the right idea with combining the two names.

To get the new name, you take the "Alaska" from Alaska Airlines and you take "airlines" from Virgin America Airlines and there you have the name of the newly combined airline.

commavia wrote:

airliner371 wrote:

Press Release is out: https://newsroom.alaskaair.com/2017-03- ... the-future

Thank you for sharing - so now we have official confirmation.

A few things I found particularly notable:

* No mention of any specialized transcon product offering
* Alaska appears to be adopting the two-track IFE solution like AA - keep AVOD PTVs on the aircraft (Airbus) that have it, but for those (Boeing) that don't, it's BYOD
* New lounges at SFO and JFK by "early 2019" - if, as is expected, Alaska does consolidate at SFO T2, and presuming that SFO isn't kicking AA out of its lounge in T2 before then, I guess that means that AA is, indeed, expected to move to SFO T1 by "early 2019" then?

I'm a little sad I love the T2 set up and lounge. I wish AA Would put some more flights into SFO I think it can handle it maybe a little northsouth action. Excited for ALASKA though I like there plan.

werdywerd wrote:

The current "Transcon First Class War" is fully saturated and AS wants nothing to do with it. If they lose a few FC customers to B6 or AA... so be it.

Fair point. AS wants nothing to do with it. Plus playing along with the bigger boys and JetBlue would require a sub-fleet and that has a huge cost to it.

keitherson wrote:

b6sea wrote:

I think the most salient and compelling point on that press release (whether the VX folks know it or not) is that joining the AS Mileage Plan is a giant upgrade. Considering how generous the Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan is, if I was a VX frequent flyer, especially for business, I would be crying for joy right about now. I take your point that these folks may not be as price sensitive as a typical flyer but I sincerely doubt they are as impervious to being offered free things and getting a good deal as you would have us believe. I think they will be very happy with what AS can offer them, especially through Mileage Plan benefits.

You're joking, right?

Every single Virgin America loyalist that I've talked to has been extremely disappointed by the merger. Many are simply not going to fly Alaska. They are going to fly other airlines instead.

99% of people don't make their flying decisions based on frequent flyer programs. Doesn't matter how good the Mileage Plan program is. No IFE, crappier First Class seats, no more order-on-demand. Those are the things that Virgin fliers will notice.

There certainly is a different vibe flying Virgin America. Flying AS, or DL or most majors out of SEA, you're getting crews that generally were around when the 727-100 was plying the skies. It shows often times in their moods. Playing hip music in the boarding area isn't going to help.

But...I go back to the real reason for this merger...AS BOUGHT VIRGIN AMERICA TO ELIMINATE A COMPETITOR THAT WAS CAUSING YIELD HEAD ACHES ALONG THE WEST COAST. OWNING VIRGIN AMERICA NOW ALLOWS ALASKA TO TAKE AWAY THAT FICKLE COMPETITOR & GIVE THE AIRLINE BETTER PRICE CONTROL.

USAirKid wrote:

legacyins wrote:

According to this article to why they are keeping the VX name until 2019: http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco ... j=77723061

The combined carrier will adopt Alaska Airlines’ name and logo, with the Virgin America name likely making its final landing in 2019. Alaska is waiting for government authorization to operate as one carrier and has said the full integration will take about two years.

Thats never really been an issue. Legally Virgin America could operate a plane painted with the AS Livery, with an AS interior, that boards from an AS gate, and is sold on Alaskaair.com, they'd just have to put a sticker on the side of the plane "Operated by Virgin America".

The opposite is also possible Southwest and AirTran Airways operated as two brands for a while after they were merged into the same airline, it was just AirTran Airways operated by Southwest Airlines.

This is the same thing that lets QX operate plane painted in AS's livery, etc, etc.

I believe the point of the article is that they are operating under two certificates and plan on operating as one carrier in two years after government approvals. This coincides with the move at SFO into T2 in the two year time frame.

n7371f wrote:

keitherson wrote:

b6sea wrote:

I think the most salient and compelling point on that press release (whether the VX folks know it or not) is that joining the AS Mileage Plan is a giant upgrade. Considering how generous the Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan is, if I was a VX frequent flyer, especially for business, I would be crying for joy right about now. I take your point that these folks may not be as price sensitive as a typical flyer but I sincerely doubt they are as impervious to being offered free things and getting a good deal as you would have us believe. I think they will be very happy with what AS can offer them, especially through Mileage Plan benefits.

You're joking, right?

Every single Virgin America loyalist that I've talked to has been extremely disappointed by the merger. Many are simply not going to fly Alaska. They are going to fly other airlines instead.

99% of people don't make their flying decisions based on frequent flyer programs. Doesn't matter how good the Mileage Plan program is. No IFE, crappier First Class seats, no more order-on-demand. Those are the things that Virgin fliers will notice.

There certainly is a different vibe flying Virgin America. Flying AS, or DL or most majors out of SEA, you're getting crews that generally were around when the 727-100 was plying the skies. It shows often times in their moods. Playing hip music in the boarding area isn't going to help.

But...I go back to the real reason for this merger...AS BOUGHT VIRGIN AMERICA TO ELIMINATE A COMPETITOR THAT WAS CAUSING YIELD HEAD ACHES ALONG THE WEST COAST. OWNING VIRGIN AMERICA NOW ALLOWS ALASKA TO TAKE AWAY THAT FICKLE COMPETITOR & GIVE THE AIRLINE BETTER PRICE CONTROL.

The real scandal and outrage should be over Alaska overpaying for Virgin, simply because they didn't want JetBlue to get bigger. It was not even about eliminating Virgin America, it was about combining with them to keep JetBlue down.

werdywerd wrote:

flyguy84 wrote:

In the coming days Alaska Airlines will hold a press conference and events that’ll unveil their new “brand identity” as they work toward integrating Virgin America into their system and product. Here’s a sneak peak at what you can expect:

The new company’s name will remain Alaska Airlines
Virgin America planes will increase 8 first class seats to 12, though it’ll be a new seat
Rumor is the new seat may not be motorized

The seat pitch in first class will decrease from 55″ to 41″
The leases on the Airbus aircraft don’t expire until 2020, so expect to see the VX planes until such time
Fleetwide new cabin interiors are planned, it seems to be “moodlighting” is the surviving aspect of Virgin America
In 2019 the Virgin America brand will vanish, and new uniforms will be unveiled
The RED InFlight Entertainment system and on-demand ordering will probably be removed and replaced with personal entertainment devices
Also in 2019 operations at SFO will combine in Terminal 2, and American Airlines will move to Terminal 1

And this is why we can't have nice things, people leak info to the press for a few dollars or whatever kickback they got.

Actually, Alaska released it on Facebook. I was surprised to say the least!

I noticed a few comments that loyal VX fliers wont fly Alaska. I think that is a bit far fetched. Let's just say for a moment that Alaska decided to take every aspect of Virgin America and combine it with Alaska..... It would not be a good move. See, Virgin was for sale for a reason. The airline was hanging by a thread, and profits were being squeezed by the hair of their chins. Virgin America would not have survived if the investments and cash injections stopped. I suspect the reason Virgin went out for sale was because I suspect the investors were pretty much finished injecting cash into the airline. If those injections stopped, and the industry took a downturn? I don't think Virgin America would have survived, especially if nobody was willing to inject more cash into the company.

I think Alaska is doing this right. They obviously are taking parts of Virgin that will enhance Alaska's passenger experience.

As for the fleet. Well... No answers. It appears 2019 will be the year we will see the results of the plans. Between now and then, we could see further improvements made. As for lie flat seats? Alaska obviously isn't interested. Based on their load factors, it doesn't appear to be a problem getting cheeks into those seats.

It's nice to see Alaska adopt some of Virgin America.

n7371f wrote:

keitherson wrote:

b6sea wrote:

I think the most salient and compelling point on that press release (whether the VX folks know it or not) is that joining the AS Mileage Plan is a giant upgrade. Considering how generous the Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan is, if I was a VX frequent flyer, especially for business, I would be crying for joy right about now. I take your point that these folks may not be as price sensitive as a typical flyer but I sincerely doubt they are as impervious to being offered free things and getting a good deal as you would have us believe. I think they will be very happy with what AS can offer them, especially through Mileage Plan benefits.

You're joking, right?

Every single Virgin America loyalist that I've talked to has been extremely disappointed by the merger. Many are simply not going to fly Alaska. They are going to fly other airlines instead.

99% of people don't make their flying decisions based on frequent flyer programs. Doesn't matter how good the Mileage Plan program is. No IFE, crappier First Class seats, no more order-on-demand. Those are the things that Virgin fliers will notice.

There certainly is a different vibe flying Virgin America. Flying AS, or DL or most majors out of SEA, you're getting crews that generally were around when the 727-100 was plying the skies. It shows often times in their moods. Playing hip music in the boarding area isn't going to help.

But...I go back to the real reason for this merger...AS BOUGHT VIRGIN AMERICA TO ELIMINATE A COMPETITOR THAT WAS CAUSING YIELD HEAD ACHES ALONG THE WEST COAST. OWNING VIRGIN AMERICA NOW ALLOWS ALASKA TO TAKE AWAY THAT FICKLE COMPETITOR & GIVE THE AIRLINE BETTER PRICE CONTROL.

Alaska directly competed with Virgin in 5 markets. That's it. Virgin didn't even have a huge presence along the west coast. A total of 5 west coast destinations - 6 if you include LAS. The competition AS faces from UA, DL, AA, WN and, to a lesser extent, NK and B6, is greater than the threat VX presented. Initially, VX was driving yields down on SEA-LAX and SEA/PDX-SFO, but their presence in recent times prior to the acquisition, had been significantly reduced. AS was already looking at Virgin when B6 popped on the scene and AS was forced to continue upping their bid for VX in order to not become a very small player among 5 HUGE airlines if B6 were to have won the bid.

USAirKid wrote:

From the Press Release

In 2018, Alaska will debut an entirely redesigned cabin with new seats and amenities...

Didn't Alaska just do this with the new Recaro Seats? Or is this going to be more of a touchup to the 737s and a redesign on the A320s to an interior comparable to the 737s?

From what I've seen on even some of the newest 739 (I do most of my flying between Seattle and Phoenix) said Recaro seats, at least the leather covers are wearing down quite fast. In January I was on a 1.5 year old aircraft and the seats looked well worn. The first class seats looked similarly worn out.
Like WN's evolve seats it seems that they just aren't holding up as well as AS may have hoped when there were originally installed.

ASFlyer wrote:

n7371f wrote:

keitherson wrote:

You're joking, right?

Every single Virgin America loyalist that I've talked to has been extremely disappointed by the merger. Many are simply not going to fly Alaska. They are going to fly other airlines instead.

99% of people don't make their flying decisions based on frequent flyer programs. Doesn't matter how good the Mileage Plan program is. No IFE, crappier First Class seats, no more order-on-demand. Those are the things that Virgin fliers will notice.

There certainly is a different vibe flying Virgin America. Flying AS, or DL or most majors out of SEA, you're getting crews that generally were around when the 727-100 was plying the skies. It shows often times in their moods. Playing hip music in the boarding area isn't going to help.

But...I go back to the real reason for this merger...AS BOUGHT VIRGIN AMERICA TO ELIMINATE A COMPETITOR THAT WAS CAUSING YIELD HEAD ACHES ALONG THE WEST COAST. OWNING VIRGIN AMERICA NOW ALLOWS ALASKA TO TAKE AWAY THAT FICKLE COMPETITOR & GIVE THE AIRLINE BETTER PRICE CONTROL.

Alaska directly competed with Virgin in 5 markets. That's it. Virgin didn't even have a huge presence along the west coast. A total of 5 west coast destinations - 6 if you include LAS. The competition AS faces from UA, DL, AA, WN and, to a lesser extent, NK and B6, is greater than the threat VX presented. Initially, VX was driving yields down on SEA-LAX and SEA/PDX-SFO, but their presence in recent times prior to the acquisition, had been significantly reduced. AS was already looking at Virgin when B6 popped on the scene and AS was forced to continue upping their bid for VX in order to not become a very small player among 5 HUGE airlines if B6 were to have won the bid.

You don't know the industry then.

keitherson wrote:

n7371f wrote:

keitherson wrote:

You're joking, right?

Every single Virgin America loyalist that I've talked to has been extremely disappointed by the merger. Many are simply not going to fly Alaska. They are going to fly other airlines instead.

99% of people don't make their flying decisions based on frequent flyer programs. Doesn't matter how good the Mileage Plan program is. No IFE, crappier First Class seats, no more order-on-demand. Those are the things that Virgin fliers will notice.

There certainly is a different vibe flying Virgin America. Flying AS, or DL or most majors out of SEA, you're getting crews that generally were around when the 727-100 was plying the skies. It shows often times in their moods. Playing hip music in the boarding area isn't going to help.

But...I go back to the real reason for this merger...AS BOUGHT VIRGIN AMERICA TO ELIMINATE A COMPETITOR THAT WAS CAUSING YIELD HEAD ACHES ALONG THE WEST COAST. OWNING VIRGIN AMERICA NOW ALLOWS ALASKA TO TAKE AWAY THAT FICKLE COMPETITOR & GIVE THE AIRLINE BETTER PRICE CONTROL.

The real scandal and outrage should be over Alaska overpaying for Virgin, simply because they didn't want JetBlue to get bigger. It was not even about eliminating Virgin America, it was about combining with them to keep JetBlue down.

What was the option though? All of a sudden you're fighting with not one, or two, or three or even four HUGE airlines to retain your market share along the west coast, but now you've got a FIFTH airline that has their sites set on becoming a dominant west coast carrier. Alaska HAD to do this for their own survival I believe.

keitherson wrote:

n7371f wrote:

keitherson wrote:

You're joking, right?

Every single Virgin America loyalist that I've talked to has been extremely disappointed by the merger. Many are simply not going to fly Alaska. They are going to fly other airlines instead.

99% of people don't make their flying decisions based on frequent flyer programs. Doesn't matter how good the Mileage Plan program is. No IFE, crappier First Class seats, no more order-on-demand. Those are the things that Virgin fliers will notice.

There certainly is a different vibe flying Virgin America. Flying AS, or DL or most majors out of SEA, you're getting crews that generally were around when the 727-100 was plying the skies. It shows often times in their moods. Playing hip music in the boarding area isn't going to help.

But...I go back to the real reason for this merger...AS BOUGHT VIRGIN AMERICA TO ELIMINATE A COMPETITOR THAT WAS CAUSING YIELD HEAD ACHES ALONG THE WEST COAST. OWNING VIRGIN AMERICA NOW ALLOWS ALASKA TO TAKE AWAY THAT FICKLE COMPETITOR & GIVE THE AIRLINE BETTER PRICE CONTROL.

The real scandal and outrage should be over Alaska overpaying for Virgin, simply because they didn't want JetBlue to get bigger. It was not even about eliminating Virgin America, it was about combining with them to keep JetBlue down.

And, yes, the added element is after Alaska tried to eliminate Virgin, JetBlue got involved. And AS viewed B6 as the same type of disruptor as Virgin long-term. A lot of finance folks were, and still are, worried about the price paid. The fact that B6 finally said no, when it was more desperate for the west coast, says something. Good point.

n7371f wrote:

keitherson wrote:

n7371f wrote:

There certainly is a different vibe flying Virgin America. Flying AS, or DL or most majors out of SEA, you're getting crews that generally were around when the 727-100 was plying the skies. It shows often times in their moods. Playing hip music in the boarding area isn't going to help.

But...I go back to the real reason for this merger...AS BOUGHT VIRGIN AMERICA TO ELIMINATE A COMPETITOR THAT WAS CAUSING YIELD HEAD ACHES ALONG THE WEST COAST. OWNING VIRGIN AMERICA NOW ALLOWS ALASKA TO TAKE AWAY THAT FICKLE COMPETITOR & GIVE THE AIRLINE BETTER PRICE CONTROL.

The real scandal and outrage should be over Alaska overpaying for Virgin, simply because they didn't want JetBlue to get bigger. It was not even about eliminating Virgin America, it was about combining with them to keep JetBlue down.

And, yes, the added element is after Alaska tried to eliminate Virgin, JetBlue got involved. And AS viewed B6 as the same type of disruptor as Virgin long-term. A lot of finance folks were, and still are, worried about the price paid. The fact that B6 finally said no, when it was more desperate for the west coast, says something. Good point.

I wish I had the time to go back through all the previous threads on this topic because this is a very simplistic and one-sided view to what went down and why. Bottom line is that VX was sold to the highest bidder because that's what VX's owners wanted. Alaska had more to lose if Jetblue acquired VX than the JetBlue did/will if Alaska acquired VX.

I tend to think some of this pushback is sour grapes by some who felt that VX's ultimate destiny was with B6 (or vice versa). I absolutely agree that AS needs to retain as many loyal VX fliers as possible, but if they are pissed off and don't want to fly AS then AS will just have to work that much harder to gain new fliers.

A Mashable article headline reads people are heartbroken over the elimination of Virgin America. I don't know if there's ever been an airline with so many likes. AS definitely can't bank on the VX customer coming along...for the frequent flyer program.

http://mashable.com/2017/03/23/virgin-a ... pPpIuEFaqh

n7371f wrote:

keitherson wrote:

n7371f wrote:

There certainly is a different vibe flying Virgin America. Flying AS, or DL or most majors out of SEA, you're getting crews that generally were around when the 727-100 was plying the skies. It shows often times in their moods. Playing hip music in the boarding area isn't going to help.

But...I go back to the real reason for this merger...AS BOUGHT VIRGIN AMERICA TO ELIMINATE A COMPETITOR THAT WAS CAUSING YIELD HEAD ACHES ALONG THE WEST COAST. OWNING VIRGIN AMERICA NOW ALLOWS ALASKA TO TAKE AWAY THAT FICKLE COMPETITOR & GIVE THE AIRLINE BETTER PRICE CONTROL.

The real scandal and outrage should be over Alaska overpaying for Virgin, simply because they didn't want JetBlue to get bigger. It was not even about eliminating Virgin America, it was about combining with them to keep JetBlue down.

And, yes, the added element is after Alaska tried to eliminate Virgin, JetBlue got involved. And AS viewed B6 as the same type of disruptor as Virgin long-term. A lot of finance folks were, and still are, worried about the price paid. The fact that B6 finally said no, when it was more desperate for the west coast, says something. Good point.

It's possible that B6 decided that VX simply was not worth the price Alaska was paying and thus stopped. It is also likely that Alaska simply had a greater ability to pay. Alaska had a much better debt position, credit rating, and free cash flow going into the negotiation. It's very possible that B6 would have paid more had it simply had the ability to without putting the company in a financial hardship.

Timaay419 wrote:

A Mashable article headline reads people are heartbroken over the elimination of Virgin America. I don't know if there's ever been an airline with so many likes. AS definitely can't bank on the VX customer coming along...for the frequent flyer program.

http://mashable.com/2017/03/23/virgin-a ... pPpIuEFaqh

So Alaska is not hip enough so they are ALL going to fly United? Please.

San Francisco passengers (all of them...not just VX)are going to reevaluate there options the next time they buy a ticket. The former VX passengers will split between the remaining carriers, A certain number will go to United because of their network, a certain number will go to Alaska because it's better for them, Southwest will work for some and a certain number will go to Jetblue because that's what works for them.

It is not possible for a single airline to win the business of every single passenger. They understand what their nitch is. VX had a nitch and that nitch is going to be carved up amongst the remaining carriers. I will also note that there will be some United, SWA, etc. passengers whom Alaska is suddenly a viable option for and might win them as customers to offset for the people that Alaska might not work for.

What about LA? SF and LA have a disproportionate amount of hipsters that value experience in comparison to other hub cities. No one can deny the VX experience is/was something different...something cooler than what the others offered. That's what got people hooked. That's what people (non-airliner nerds) talked about...the cool factor. I'm not saying ALL are going to deflect, but it'll be interesting to hear where people end up over the next couple years. Personally I've always been an AA guy, but I think Delta is really upping their game. Alessi dinnerware, anyone? The VX billboards all over town used to portray a rock n roll image, setting themselves apart from the competition with tons of reference to experience and ammenities. Now these billboards have been trying to talk up the combo referring to past "weird" combos like cameras & phones or bacon & donuts. As if. Truth is Virgins are hot in Hollywood and this is going to be a hard pill to swallow for a chunk of the VX flyer base.

Passedv1 wrote:

Timaay419 wrote:

A Mashable article headline reads people are heartbroken over the elimination of Virgin America. I don't know if there's ever been an airline with so many likes. AS definitely can't bank on the VX customer coming along...for the frequent flyer program.

http://mashable.com/2017/03/23/virgin-a ... pPpIuEFaqh

So Alaska is not hip enough so they are ALL going to fly United? Please.

San Francisco passengers (all of them...not just VX)are going to reevaluate there options the next time they buy a ticket. The former VX passengers will split between the remaining carriers, A certain number will go to United because of their network, a certain number will go to Alaska because it's better for them, Southwest will work for some and a certain number will go to Jetblue because that's what works for them.

It is not possible for a single airline to win the business of every single passenger. They understand what their nitch is. VX had a nitch and that nitch is going to be carved up amongst the remaining carriers. I will also note that there will be some United, SWA, etc. passengers whom Alaska is suddenly a viable option for and might win them as customers to offset for the people that Alaska might not work for.

MesserJ wrote:

https://www.facebook.com/alaskaairlines/posts/10155133716632486
It's nice, but the Alaskan flair is completely gone. No more tapestry design on the bulkheads.

For the love of god, stop saying "Alaskan!"

Within the next couple of years, almost one third of Alaska's fleet will consist of a regional aircraft operated by another airline (Q400, E175, and a couple CRJ700s). Does anyone know how the Alaska experience will be on those aircraft? Wifi? Inflight service? Power outlets? Mood lighting? Etc? Thanks.

great, basically eliminating everything I liked about VX. MCS on VX was a really nice "class" by itself and now they are making it about the same as an average economy class seat on mint. The nice tasty food options are probably gone. It seems like no more seat back satellite TV either. I get the feeling that AS management thought that VX experience was all about mood lighting.

Outside of the points I already transferred over, there is really no reason for me to fly AS based on this. And no, cheapest price won't do it.

n7371f wrote:

keitherson wrote:

n7371f wrote:

There certainly is a different vibe flying Virgin America. Flying AS, or DL or most majors out of SEA, you're getting crews that generally were around when the 727-100 was plying the skies. It shows often times in their moods. Playing hip music in the boarding area isn't going to help.

But...I go back to the real reason for this merger...AS BOUGHT VIRGIN AMERICA TO ELIMINATE A COMPETITOR THAT WAS CAUSING YIELD HEAD ACHES ALONG THE WEST COAST. OWNING VIRGIN AMERICA NOW ALLOWS ALASKA TO TAKE AWAY THAT FICKLE COMPETITOR & GIVE THE AIRLINE BETTER PRICE CONTROL.

The real scandal and outrage should be over Alaska overpaying for Virgin, simply because they didn't want JetBlue to get bigger. It was not even about eliminating Virgin America, it was about combining with them to keep JetBlue down.

And, yes, the added element is after Alaska tried to eliminate Virgin, JetBlue got involved. And AS viewed B6 as the same type of disruptor as Virgin long-term. A lot of finance folks were, and still are, worried about the price paid. The fact that B6 finally said no, when it was more desperate for the west coast, says something. Good point.

Perhaps you missed the part where AS only approached VX after they publicly put themselves up for sale?

No matter how many times you repeat yourself, this was never some predatory purchase designed to eliminate a small competitor with marginal profitability. This was about securing a foothold in the next logical market for AS to evolve in over the next several decades, California. And that's exactly why AS jumped in.

This only occurred because VX put themselves up for sale, and because AS had deep enough pockets to make it a reality.

Timaay419 wrote:

A Mashable article headline reads people are heartbroken over the elimination of Virgin America.

In fairness to my new co-workers from VX, those supposedly heartbroken people had a decade during which they could have put their money where their mouth is by flying VX in droves and paying a premium for the experience.

But that didn't happen, and coolness alone doesn't keep the lights on.

As you've seen already, AS will definitely incorporate some of the flair that made VX unique, while recognizing it's the consistent, reliable, genuine service AS provides that has made them wildly profitable while VX was not.

EA CO AS wrote:

Timaay419 wrote:

A Mashable article headline reads people are heartbroken over the elimination of Virgin America.

In fairness to my new co-workers from VX, those supposedly heartbroken people had a decade during which they could have put their money where their mouth is by flying VX in droves and paying a premium for the experience.

But that didn't happen, and coolness alone doesn't keep the lights on.

As you've seen already, AS will definitely incorporate some of the flair that made VX unique, while recognizing it's the consistent, reliable, genuine service AS provides that has made them wildly profitable while VX was not.

AS people sure are sensitive. This has been the feedback from the VX loyalists since day 1. And yet the AS people just start talking about the dull brand, pedestrian onboard product and AS profitability. Might as well post a "hey VX people, take it or leave it " during the boarding experience. AS had a chance to do something bold and they didn't. It's not the end of the world, but pretending that VX passenger will suddenly stop caring about what differentiated VX is a silly response. But hey, there is new gate music, right?

Btw - "incorporating some of the flair" is not the same as brand experience.

intotheair wrote:

On FT, someone wrote that at the employee Q&A, it was explained that they didn't think it was worth the investment to do flatbeds on transcons. Interesting move.

Yep - as suspected. The transcon markets, including at the high end, do indeed seem saturated. So it doesn't surprise me that Alaska has apparently conclude that it isn't worth fighting for that passenger. Alaska will naturally have to accept lower yields on its transcons versus what airlines with far better premium products get, but then Alaska also has lower costs than most of those airlines, and will likely still be quite capable of filling those planes with connections from all throughout the west coast, plus with Alaska loyalists. The more interesting prospect, for me, will be the interaction between Alaska's transcon offering and AA's given that Alaska FFs will still enjoy reciprocal earn/burn and elite benefits even in AA's vastly better premium transcon cabins.

keitherson wrote:

Every single Virgin America loyalist that I've talked to has been extremely disappointed by the merger. Many are simply not going to fly Alaska. They are going to fly other airlines instead.

99% of people don't make their flying decisions based on frequent flyer programs. Doesn't matter how good the Mileage Plan program is. No IFE, crappier First Class seats, no more order-on-demand. Those are the things that Virgin fliers will notice.

Correct. "99% of people" don't make flying decisions based on frequent flyer program - a lower but still quite high number instead make flying decisions based first and foremost on price. And therein, of course, lies the fatal flaw for Virgin America - it's costs were too high to align with the revenue-generating potential of its inherently-niche network. All these Virgin America loyalists may be upset about losing mood lighting and on-demand food, so they'll all show their disapproval by going to fly United. And then, I strongly suspect, a fair number of them will steadily migrate back when they realize that the product/service offering from Alaska is - holistically - still just as good, if not better, than a massive network carrier.

n7371f wrote:

But...I go back to the real reason for this merger...AS BOUGHT VIRGIN AMERICA TO ELIMINATE A COMPETITOR THAT WAS CAUSING YIELD HEAD ACHES ALONG THE WEST COAST. OWNING VIRGIN AMERICA NOW ALLOWS ALASKA TO TAKE AWAY THAT FICKLE COMPETITOR & GIVE THE AIRLINE BETTER PRICE CONTROL.

I'd assert (and not in all caps) that the "real reason" for this merger is actually that Virgin America's owners simply decided the business was worth more sold off and that it was time to cash-out.

EA CO AS wrote:

In fairness to my new co-workers from VX, those supposedly heartbroken people had a decade during which they could have put their money where their mouth is by flying VX in droves and paying a premium for the experience.

But that didn't happen, and coolness alone doesn't keep the lights on.

Thank you. Took (typed) the words right out of my mouth. For all of the Virgin America fanatics supposedly out there that are allegedly "heartbroken" of the elimination of the brand, it's notable that all of this devotion never translated into meaningful (or, for the most part, even minimal) profitability for Virgin America. That's the bottom line. Virgin America was a nice brand that never made much money. Perhaps all the Virgin America fanatics should sit back for a moment and pause to reflect on the fact that the airline's own shareholders decided their business was no longer worth keeping the company a going concern - and instead decided to sell out. That speaks volumes.

SFOtoORD wrote:

AS had a chance to do something bold and they didn't.

I suppose building a solidly profitable airline doesn't pass for "bold" these days. Either way, Alaska has clearly decided that it's more in the business of making money than value-diluting "differentiation."

commavia wrote:

SFOtoORD wrote:

AS had a chance to do something bold and they didn't.

I suppose building a solidly profitable airline doesn't pass for "bold" these days. Either way, Alaska has clearly decided that it's more in the business of making money than value-diluting "differentiation."

Again, that is an internal company perspective and not a passenger perspective. Will Alaska be touting their superior profitability on their billboard ads along 101? They've already proven that they either didn't understand or care about what made VX unique. Adding a few knickknacks and calling it a day made that clear. But good luck telling passengers you killed their special thing, but you added some subtle blue light and your profitability is better.

Nobody seems to be able to answer my question about the "Alaska experience" on the regional fleet, which will comprise almost a third of its fleet shortly. I'm going to assume that besides having an assigned seat and maybe a $9 sandwich "created" by a popular PNW chef, there will not be much of anything unique to a flier's experience if they are traveling on this third of the fleet- much of which are flying mid-cons and funding a large portion of the newly announced flying.

n7371f wrote:

werdywerd wrote:

The current "Transcon First Class War" is fully saturated and AS wants nothing to do with it. If they lose a few FC customers to B6 or AA... so be it.

Fair point. AS wants nothing to do with it. Plus playing along with the bigger boys and JetBlue would require a sub-fleet and that has a huge cost to it.

One can point to a lot of evidence that suggests it isn't saturated, and, indeed, the practical definition of premium transcon is expanding:

UA p.s. relocated to EWR

Delta lie-flat 752s on LAX-DCA, SEA-BOS, and redeye PDX-JFK

B6 Mint BOS/SFO, BOS-LAX, and LAX- FLL

DL and UA (if not AA with its small 321T subfleet) will have the capacity to smother VS/AS transcons out of SFO/LAX/PDX/SEA to the premium markets for which enough people will pay for lie-flats.