Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
RL757PVD wrote:Wasn't this said about Go Jet back in the day? I have go Jet friends that are flying with the big 3 now....
mcdu wrote:Go Jet was brought on line during the BK dark days of the legacy carriers struggles. There were a lot more moving parts in the industry back then. Also Go Jet was a pariah amongst its peer group ; other regional pilots. If you read a few of the pilot forums you would see them saying the same things about PSA as recently as they were about Go Jet back several years ago.
mm320cap wrote:In case you missed it, the US3 MANAGEMENT is just as vehemently opposed to NAI's little scheme as the pilots are. So there is an HR person (management) and an interview Captain (pilot) in the interview room.... wonder how that will go for the NAI applicant?? Hmmmmm.....
As far as pilot shortages for the US3? I highly highly doubt it's going to be an issue for the next 15-20 years. The regionals and maybe LCC's? Absolutely. This is why it makes even less sense for a pilot to go the NAI. There are plenty of MUCH better jobs out there to be had.
lesfalls wrote:You say Major U.S carriers but what about NK,F9 or G4? Seems that no has said yet that they are better then Norwegian . Maybe that shows something......
N353SK wrote:These pay scales used to be posted on job advertisements through Norwegian's staffing subcontractor, OSM Aviation, but are no longer listed. I don't know if they've changed or they're just sort of hiding them:
787:
$5,500 per month for FOs ($66k per year)
$7,500 per month for relief captains ($90k per year)
$10,000 per month for captains ($120k per year)
737 Max:
$4,700 per month for FOs ($56.4k per year)
$8,500 per month for Captains ($102k per year)
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Anyone with any 121 experience isn't going to have much of a hard time getting hired at a major from 2022-2027, just on the sheer number of retirements. As long as pilot hiring has some sort of input by the current pilots, you can bet your bottom dollar that any ALPA carrier will vote no for any candidate who flew for Norwegian, as they rightfully should.
sk736 wrote:What a load of rubbish has been posted in this thread. Anyone who thinks an airline wouldn't hire a pilot simply because he or she has previously worked for Norwegian has completely lost the plot. Get a grip.
FlyHossD wrote:
This is one of the things that I've been wondering about. That is, considering how much hiring the US majors need to do, who would go to work for Norwegian? Only those who can't get hired at a US carrier is the most likely answer.
If that's correct, then take that one step further. Knowing that they're "backs are against the wall," imagine how easy it will be for Norwegian to "push" pilots into practices that aren't safe.
VS11 wrote:DiamondFlyer wrote:
Anyone with any 121 experience isn't going to have much of a hard time getting hired at a major from 2022-2027, just on the sheer number of retirements. As long as pilot hiring has some sort of input by the current pilots, you can bet your bottom dollar that any ALPA carrier will vote no for any candidate who flew for Norwegian, as they rightfully should.
This is ridiculous - You cannot discriminate based on past history of employment. No airline would ever expose themselves to such litigation risks.
N353SK wrote:micstatic wrote:A few thoughts and questions. So many of the replies were union la la land type stuff in my opinion. Fact of the matter is. So many of you pilots refuse to think thru the lense that the customers of your business use. Yet you are customers of other business. Norwegian is a disruptor and will likely bring transatlantic travel costs down for customers. You could argue they are price dumping right now, but that will have to stabilize. But I wonder if you union pilots would think the same way about your cable bill, subway tickets, etc etc.
-Does anybody have the payscales for Norwegian they can share with us? Particularly in annual numbers so we can relate.
-Work rules? What is so bad? I'm curious because I don't know. I may have some sympathy here but I may not. Some of my airline buddies love to brag how they game the system by "fake sick days" to create mega vacations. Compared to other occupations (including ones with people who travel for a living) I don't think airline pilots have it that bad.
-The comments about never working for a major...Frankly it's disgusting that somebody is sifting thru resumes basically operating as a tentacle for a union. I just can't see that as ethical behavior. When the pilot shortage kicks in we will see if Norwegian pilots really have that tough of a time moving to the us majors.
These pay scales used to be posted on job advertisements through Norwegian's staffing subcontractor, OSM Aviation, but are no longer listed. I don't know if they've changed or they're just sort of hiding them:
787:
$5,500 per month for FOs ($66k per year)
$7,500 per month for relief captains ($90k per year)
$10,000 per month for captains ($120k per year)
737 Max:
$4,700 per month for FOs ($56.4k per year)
$8,500 per month for Captains ($102k per year)
Pay rates on both aircraft are significantly lower than pay rates on similar aircraft flown by US airlines (with the possible exception being first year FO pay at Spirit, Frontier, Sun Country, and UPS. Second year pay at all of these carriers is much higher than Norwegian's 737 Max rates).
There is also no 401(k) option whereas the US Legacies and Southwest all have a 13-16% defined contribution.
I don't think anybody knows yet about the work rules, but the guaranteed 10 days off is fewer than any other airline in the USA (There may be a few regionals that still only guarantee 10 days off). It is also not customary in the US for a pilot to have to apply to a staffing agency (in this case, OSM aviation, a wholly-owned Norwegian subsidiary).
Regarding your last point, the Human Resources departments run hiring at every US major airline. Some pilots sit in on interviews and review boards, but HR still leads the way. At most carriers a Chief Pilot cannot even guarantee somebody an interview.
Varsity1 wrote:Mortyman wrote:Sean-SAN- wrote:Nevermind the horrible terms and pay, or working for a parasite. The biggest problem is forcing American pilots through the painful process of getting an European pilot license. I'd need to get paid a large premium to take that hassle on.
Do you know what the actual pay is for captains at Norwegian or do you just think you know ?
The pay has been posted here before. FO's start at 65 and Captains at 102. Why on gods green earth would I do that, saddle myself with some training slavery and become a scab?
VS11 wrote:
This is ridiculous - You cannot discriminate based on past history of employment. No airline would ever expose themselves to such litigation risks.
VS11 wrote:
Totally agree! To see such mindless malice, hatred and naivety coming from pilots is deeply disturbing....
Mr AirNZ wrote:VS11 wrote:DiamondFlyer wrote:
Anyone with any 121 experience isn't going to have much of a hard time getting hired at a major from 2022-2027, just on the sheer number of retirements. As long as pilot hiring has some sort of input by the current pilots, you can bet your bottom dollar that any ALPA carrier will vote no for any candidate who flew for Norwegian, as they rightfully should.
This is ridiculous - You cannot discriminate based on past history of employment. No airline would ever expose themselves to such litigation risks.
You got any precedent for that statement? I'll admit I'm more familiar with employment law in other jurisdictions but in terms of the anti discrimaintion framework that applies within the United States, past employment history is not a protected category. What grounds would you bring a suit under? Can you cite either a relevant case that could be applied or legislation that would support your assertion. I'm genuinely interested.
mcdu wrote:VS11 wrote:
Totally agree! To see such mindless malice, hatred and naivety coming from pilots is deeply disturbing....
What business are you in by chance? If you worked in an industry where your salary was based on longevity versus many where you can change jobs and keep the same pay or get an increase you might think differently.
Norwegian will create downward pressure on the wages of every pilot in the world. Unlike other jobs pilots are in a longevity industry. You can't leave one carrier as a Capt and take the same role at another.
Norwegian threatens the livelihoods of thousands of airline employees. Not just pilots but every employee.
VS11 wrote:mcdu wrote:VS11 wrote:
Totally agree! To see such mindless malice, hatred and naivety coming from pilots is deeply disturbing....
What business are you in by chance? If you worked in an industry where your salary was based on longevity versus many where you can change jobs and keep the same pay or get an increase you might think differently.
Norwegian will create downward pressure on the wages of every pilot in the world. Unlike other jobs pilots are in a longevity industry. You can't leave one carrier as a Capt and take the same role at another.
Norwegian threatens the livelihoods of thousands of airline employees. Not just pilots but every employee.
Norwegian is not a US carrier. They have 10-20 flights a day to the US and these 20 flights a day will impact the entire airline employment practices in the US where there are thousands of flights a day requiring thousands of pilots? If US airlines thought it would have been better for them to use the same practices they would have done it by now. And in some areas, they have.
I don't have anything against seniority based compensation but it does come from the military and has less to do with market-based principles, which is a way of life for all market-based economies. There is an inherent contradiction between a quasi-military hierarchical structure/compensation and a market-based one. Airlines have struggled with that. Pilots should recognize that no business is guaranteed commercial success.
N766UA wrote:I will briefly point out, yet again, that this thread is basically why almost no professionals actually use this board. You get line pilots telling you how it is and how they feel, and you get a bunch of armchair knowitalls telling them why they're "mindless," amongst other things.
Norwegian's practices directly affect my *career.*
DiamondFlyer wrote:
If they're hiring US based crews, they're acting as one. If they want to hire US crews in the US, they need to pony up and have a total compensation package better than what a person could do at another airline. Look at US shipping, the industry was destroyed by flag of convenience, which is exactly what NAI is. We aren't going to sit by and let that happen. Thankfully, the organization that represents a majority of air carrier pilots in the US has the same opinion.
VS11 wrote:DiamondFlyer wrote:
If they're hiring US based crews, they're acting as one. If they want to hire US crews in the US, they need to pony up and have a total compensation package better than what a person could do at another airline. Look at US shipping, the industry was destroyed by flag of convenience, which is exactly what NAI is. We aren't going to sit by and let that happen. Thankfully, the organization that represents a majority of air carrier pilots in the US has the same opinion.
They are not acting as a US carrier because they are not allowed to fly within the US, accordingly their impact is non-existent. They actually create demand for US pilots unlike other foreign carriers which don't. You should be worried if a new US domestic carrier starts doing what Norwegian is doing, and assuming that carrier becomes big enough then it might pose a challenge to the existing pilot hiring model in the US.
mcdu wrote:VS11 wrote:DiamondFlyer wrote:
If they're hiring US based crews, they're acting as one. If they want to hire US crews in the US, they need to pony up and have a total compensation package better than what a person could do at another airline. Look at US shipping, the industry was destroyed by flag of convenience, which is exactly what NAI is. We aren't going to sit by and let that happen. Thankfully, the organization that represents a majority of air carrier pilots in the US has the same opinion.
They are not acting as a US carrier because they are not allowed to fly within the US, accordingly their impact is non-existent. They actually create demand for US pilots unlike other foreign carriers which don't. You should be worried if a new US domestic carrier starts doing what Norwegian is doing, and assuming that carrier becomes big enough then it might pose a challenge to the existing pilot hiring model in the US.
We have answered many of your questions and retorts in this thread. However you did not answer the question, what is your career? May I have an equal opportunity to opine on why you are paid too much, want to protect your job too much and how much nonsense it is to want to provide a liveable wage to your family.
VS11 wrote:They are not acting as a US carrier because they are not allowed to fly within the US, accordingly their impact is non-existent.
N766UA wrote:I will briefly point out, yet again, that this thread is basically why almost no professionals actually use this board. You get line pilots telling you how it is and how they feel, and you get a bunch of armchair knowitalls telling them why they're "mindless," amongst other things.
Norwegian's practices directly affect my *career.*
VS11 wrote:DiamondFlyer wrote:
Anyone with any 121 experience isn't going to have much of a hard time getting hired at a major from 2022-2027, just on the sheer number of retirements. As long as pilot hiring has some sort of input by the current pilots, you can bet your bottom dollar that any ALPA carrier will vote no for any candidate who flew for Norwegian, as they rightfully should.
This is ridiculous - You cannot discriminate based on past history of employment. No airline would ever expose themselves to such litigation risks.
mm320cap wrote:You've based this on your deep understanding of airline employment law? There is lots of information out there about NAI and it's "flag of convenience" practices. You can educate yourself on the subject or not as you see fit. You can protest and and be stomp your feet all day if it makes you feel better, but you liking or not is immaterial. Work at NAI you will have a stigma. It will have a bearing on whether you can advance to an airline that pays a good wage with good working conditions.
Back when airlines were furloughing like crazy there was a growing trend at some carriers NOT to hire furloughees because it was clear that they would go back to their respective airlines when they were recalled. That's the way this business goes sometimes. The information is out there. But if you go to fly for NAI I suggest your have your eyes WIDE open.
VS11 wrote:There have been numerous discussions about Norwegian and their purported flag of convenience so I have read on that. I still have not seen any evidence of that happening especially if they are hiring US pilots - that would make the flag of convenience being American so really it should be the Europeans complaining, not the American pilots.
BravoOne wrote:I know of several American EK pilots who cannot get their foot in the door at Delta, Lots of great experience at EK plus some SIC time at a regional here in the US. Don't claim know the reason, but I suspect its the ME3 stink that's keeping them out at the moment.
BravoOne wrote:I know of several American EK pilots who cannot get their foot in the door at Delta, Lots of great experience at EK plus some SIC time at a regional here in the US. Don't claim know the reason, but I suspect its the ME3 stink that's keeping them out at the moment.
VS11 wrote:
Are they applying for B737/A320 jobs? Airlines will certainly choose to promote their own pilots to widebodies, which is what EK pilots would have been flying. The demand for pilots at the big US carriers would be for the narrow-body fleets, I would imagine.
doug_or wrote:VS11 wrote:
Are they applying for B737/A320 jobs? Airlines will certainly choose to promote their own pilots to widebodies, which is what EK pilots would have been flying. The demand for pilots at the big US carriers would be for the narrow-body fleets, I would imagine.
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
You don't apply for an air frame and the airlines don't choose who to promote. You get hired as a pilot and from day 1 everything is based on seniority.
VS11 wrote:doug_or wrote:VS11 wrote:
Are they applying for B737/A320 jobs? Airlines will certainly choose to promote their own pilots to widebodies, which is what EK pilots would have been flying. The demand for pilots at the big US carriers would be for the narrow-body fleets, I would imagine.
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
You don't apply for an air frame and the airlines don't choose who to promote. You get hired as a pilot and from day 1 everything is based on seniority.
Thanks. You just won my argument. A new pilot would be the least senior accordingly won't fly the widebodies hence s/he will fly the narrowbodies. So these pilots coming from EK flying 777/A330/A380 want to fly 737/320 for DL?
VS11 wrote:doug_or wrote:VS11 wrote:
Are they applying for B737/A320 jobs? Airlines will certainly choose to promote their own pilots to widebodies, which is what EK pilots would have been flying. The demand for pilots at the big US carriers would be for the narrow-body fleets, I would imagine.
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
You don't apply for an air frame and the airlines don't choose who to promote. You get hired as a pilot and from day 1 everything is based on seniority.
Thanks. You just won my argument. A new pilot would be the least senior accordingly won't fly the widebodies hence s/he will fly the narrowbodies. So these pilots coming from EK flying 777/A330/A380 want to fly 737/320 for DL?
VS11 wrote:doug_or wrote:VS11 wrote:
Are they applying for B737/A320 jobs? Airlines will certainly choose to promote their own pilots to widebodies, which is what EK pilots would have been flying. The demand for pilots at the big US carriers would be for the narrow-body fleets, I would imagine.
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
You don't apply for an air frame and the airlines don't choose who to promote. You get hired as a pilot and from day 1 everything is based on seniority.
Thanks. You just won my argument. A new pilot would be the least senior accordingly won't fly the widebodies hence s/he will fly the narrowbodies. So these pilots coming from EK flying 777/A330/A380 want to fly 737/320 for DL?
mcdu wrote:I have no ill feelings toward someone that decides to go to Norwegian. That is a choice they can make, but to think that there won't be repercussions in the future if you desire to leave Norwegian would be short sighted. I know I certainly would not want my company to hire anyone with a background at Norwegian.
VS11 wrote:It is a big world. Lots of people would be interested in flying for Norwegian. For instance, people with dual US and EU citizenship. The US is 320m people and the EU is 500m people, you think it would be that difficult to find pilots to staff a dozen airplanes?!?! In fact, it would be a golden opportunity for someone based in FLL for instance to be able to move to Barcelona and work for the same airline! Not everyone's life revolves around AA, DL or UA. If Norwegian struggles to find enough qualified candidates, let them worry about it.
bigb wrote:Sure, because overall DL offers a better QOL (Quality of Life) and pay for their pilots over EK pilots. Pilots do not get caught up in the air frame, they care about pay and qol. DL offers both over EK. This NAI is about pilots protecting the profession from further deterioration of pay and qol. Its clear you do not have an understanding of the industry and the way compensation works on the big picture of things for airline crews. I would suggest doing further research beyond airliners.net and flyertalk. Take a visit over Jetcareers and airline pilot central and just learn about how things work from an airline crew perspective. Once you gain that understanding, I think you will understand why EK pilots may be trying to come back to work at DL or UA.
N757ST wrote:Yes, they do.
And about Norwegian, good luck getting pilots. You can make far more money at all the legacies, and most off the LCCs, in the RIGHT SEAT, then you can as a 787 captain. Shiny jet syndrome doesn't put your kids in college.
VS11 wrote:Sure, I am not debating the possibility of widebody pilots going back to flying narrowbody planes. But the typical career path is the reverse, and while not the best analogy, in the corporate world overqualified candidates are usually not considered for a job so applying standard HR logic I can totally see why DL wouldn't be rushing to hire experienced pilots from other airlines.
mcdu wrote:VS11 wrote:Totally agree! To see such mindless malice, hatred and naivety coming from pilots is deeply disturbing....
What business are you in by chance? If you worked in an industry where your salary was based on longevity versus many where you can change jobs and keep the same pay or get an increase you might think differently.
Norwegian will create downward pressure on the wages of every pilot in the world. Unlike other jobs pilots are in a longevity industry. You can't leave one carrier as a Capt and take the same role at another.
Norwegian threatens the livelihoods of thousands of airline employees. Not just pilots but every employee.
N353SK wrote:VS11 wrote:Sure, I am not debating the possibility of widebody pilots going back to flying narrowbody planes. But the typical career path is the reverse, and while not the best analogy, in the corporate world overqualified candidates are usually not considered for a job so applying standard HR logic I can totally see why DL wouldn't be rushing to hire experienced pilots from other airlines.
The US Legacy airlines are generally considered the best airline jobs in the world to pilots with an FAA license. There is no such thing as overqualified for one of these positions because there are almost no jobs that pilots would leave for.
VS11 wrote:N353SK wrote:VS11 wrote:Sure, I am not debating the possibility of widebody pilots going back to flying narrowbody planes. But the typical career path is the reverse, and while not the best analogy, in the corporate world overqualified candidates are usually not considered for a job so applying standard HR logic I can totally see why DL wouldn't be rushing to hire experienced pilots from other airlines.
The US Legacy airlines are generally considered the best airline jobs in the world to pilots with an FAA license. There is no such thing as overqualified for one of these positions because there are almost no jobs that pilots would leave for.
I don't understand what you are trying to say. My position is that in most cases an EK 777/380 Captain would be overqualified to be a DL 737/A320 First Officer and would not be considered for the job. Such cases probably do happen but I don't think that's a standard practice.
VS11 wrote:
I don't understand what you are trying to say. My position is that in most cases an EK 777/380 Captain would be overqualified to be a DL 737/A320 First Officer and would not be considered for the job. Such cases probably do happen but I don't think that's a standard practice.