Southwest Airlines expansion in Charlotte

jplatts · Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:37 pm

I have noticed that Southwest does fly to Charlotte, but Southwest operates fewer flights out of Charlotte than out of most of the other major cities in the contiguous U.S. that Southwest serves. Southwest currently only operates 8 daily nonstop flights to 5 destinations out of Charlotte. There is significant demand for flights to Charlotte from some major midwestern cities, including Kansas City, Indianapolis, Detroit, Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland. There is also significant demand for flights from Charlotte to New York City, even though there are already nonstops to NYC from Charlotte on Delta, United, and jetBlue.

There is significant demand for Charlotte-Phoenix flights, and Southwest has a significant presence in Phoenix. American is currently the only airline to serve Phoenix nonstop from Charlotte. Will Southwest add Charlotte to Phoenix nonstops with the significant demand that exists for Charlotte to Phoenix service?

Would Southwest add nonstop service from Charlotte to Kansas City, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Columbus, and Cleveland?

Would Southwest add nonstop service from Charlotte to Pittsburgh and New York-LaGuardia?

Would Southwest expand from Charlotte to Oakland, Los Angeles, or San Diego? American is currently the only airline to have nonstops to California from Charlotte, and Southwest could add nonstops from Charlotte to California destinations to provide competition.

Will Southwest revive nonstop service from Charlotte to Orlando and expand into additional Florida destinations from Charlotte?

Southwest has plenty of opportunities to expand in Charlotte, especially since Southwest would only face direct competition from American on many of the new destinations that it would go to nonstop from Charlotte.

727LOVER · Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:49 pm

[quote="jplatts]Southwest has plenty of opportunities to expand in Charlotte,.[/quote]

I believe the problem is WN does not have enough gates. There is an expansion of A at the moment, I think. When it's done, they may be able to get 2 more gates

afcjets · Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:10 pm

When will the first phase of A North open and does anyone have any recent pics of it's construction?

aaflyer777 · Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:25 pm

WN isn't going to expand in CLT because there's simply no point in fighting AA on any of those routes. Even with lower fares, AA would just match them and drive WN out. You might see some more Florida flying but thats about it.

Cubsrule · Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:28 pm

aaflyer777 wrote:
WN isn't going to expand in CLT because there's simply no point in fighting AA on any of those routes. Even with lower fares, AA would just match them and drive WN out. You might see some more Florida flying but thats about it.

But WN had expanded in the past, for instance by adding BNA. What's differentbetween routes that have seen expansion (e.g. BNA) and similar routes where the is a potential for future expansion (e.g. STL)?

afcjets · Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:05 pm

BNA is one of their largest and closest hubs to CLT.

msycajun · Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:22 pm

Are we really going to have a thread on a different WN city every day?

ifly4free · Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:30 pm

I noticed in the last OAG thread from enilria that WN is adding a 3rd daily flight to BWI from CLT in September.

727LOVER · Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:35 pm

msycajun wrote:
Are we really going to have a thread on a different WN city every day?

SURE....why not ?

phluser · Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:43 pm

aaflyer777 wrote:
WN isn't going to expand in CLT because there's simply no point in fighting AA on any of those routes. Even with lower fares, AA would just match them and drive WN out. You might see some more Florida flying but thats about it.

WN actually tried CLT-MCO and was driven out of that route, and B6 once tried CLT-FLL. Florida is the most competitive spot from AA at CLT. It'd be better to overfly some hubs into OAK or SJC and not deal with AA that lacks that CLT-OAK and is only seasonal on CLT-SJC.

ahj2000 · Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:07 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if they pick up a gate or two once a-North opens. STL and/or DEN wouldn't surprise me, although now that they are building up more presence here Florida may be a better shot. A lot of people in the area aren't super familiar with WN, especially as they have had little to no advertising here. Perhaps we can see something like PHX or Cali once red eyes happen on WN. I've heard Delta is going to be one of the first at A-North, even with a SkyClub, and WN could take over their gates.

AAlaxfan · Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:14 pm

727LOVER wrote:
msycajun wrote:
Are we really going to have a thread on a different WN city every day?

SURE....why not ?

Has anyone started the WN DTW thread yet?

USAirALB · Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:31 pm

As has been discussed here before LCC's have historically struggled at CLT.

TZ tried CLT-MDW and failed.

FL tried CLT-MDW/MCO and failed on both.

B6 tried CLT-FLL and failed.

WN tried CLT-MCO and failed.

B6 service to CLT has been stagnant over the years. I think they are only at 2x E190 now to BOS and JFK. I've heard they don't really do so well, especially on CLT-BOS.

A lack of gate space is definitely holding back OAL from expanding at CLT. Hopefully the A North gates will remedy that once they open next year.

Honestly I don't see WN expanding much to CLT. Maybe a flight to STL and one of WN's western bases such as PHX/DEN/LAS, but that would overfly DAL/HOU/MDW/BNA which WN all fly from CLT.

ScottB · Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:32 pm

phluser wrote:
Florida is the most competitive spot from AA at CLT. It'd be better to overfly some hubs into OAK or SJC and not deal with AA that lacks that CLT-OAK and is only seasonal on CLT-SJC.

The issue isn't so much that Florida is competitive from CLT; rather, the Florida markets from CLT are relatively small and AA can respond aggressively to competitors without severe damage to the economics of the hub. As examples, O&D traffic between CLT & MCO is actually a bit smaller than between MHT & MCO, while BDL-FLL is larger than CLT-MIA and CLT-FLL combined. Competitors have to deeply discount in order to stimulate traffic in what is already a small market (CLT-Florida) and also face the challenge of frequent flyer loyalty in the CLT market. Even if AA matches those deep discounts, the vast majority of their CLT-Florida traffic was already connecting and that sees limited effects from a price war.

jplatts wrote:
There is significant demand for Charlotte-Phoenix flights, and Southwest has a significant presence in Phoenix. American is currently the only airline to serve Phoenix nonstop from Charlotte. Will Southwest add Charlotte to Phoenix nonstops with the significant demand that exists for Charlotte to Phoenix service?

Would Southwest add nonstop service from Charlotte to Kansas City, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Columbus, and Cleveland?

Would Southwest add nonstop service from Charlotte to Pittsburgh and New York-LaGuardia?

Would Southwest expand from Charlotte to Oakland, Los Angeles, or San Diego? American is currently the only airline to have nonstops to California from Charlotte, and Southwest could add nonstops from Charlotte to California destinations to provide competition.

PHX? Probably not. The O&D market is relatively small (around 250 PDEW); it's hub-to-hub for AA; and the stage length is long at roughly four hours. MCI & STL might have a reasonable shot at happening given that WN offers a good variety of connecting markets at both airports and enjoys frequent flyer/brand loyalty as the leading carrier in both cities as well. CLE, CMH, IND, and PIT are unlikely due to small O&D market size and lack of a large WN station at those airports. WN has better uses for LGA slots than fighting AA in a hub-to-hub market with a vastly inferior schedule. CLT-California on WN is unlikely due to their focus on short-haul flying and the fact that California markets are well-served from CLT relative to their size thanks to the AA hub.

izbtmnhd · Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:32 pm

AAlaxfan wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
msycajun wrote:
Are we really going to have a thread on a different WN city every day?

SURE....why not ?

Has anyone started the WN DTW thread yet?

Sorry, no DTW. Only airports with C as the first letter of their code need apply. CVG then CLT...still have CLE and CMH.

USAirALB · Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:45 pm

Another factor that I'd like to add is CLT's close proximity to Florida.

If traffic is right and you drive swiftly, Orlando is a 7 hour drive away. Once you factor in the time it takes for a family to get to the airport, wait at the gate, fly down (1.75 hours if you include taxi time), and get a rental car it really isn't worth it.

West Palm is 2 hours further, and Miami another hour.

jplatts · Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:52 pm

Southwest has been able to successfully compete against American in Dallas, Chicago, Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Washington, D.C. Why would Southwest have trouble competing in Charlotte if it can do well at DAL, MDW, LAX, PHX, DCA, and BWI?

SteveXC500 · Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:25 pm

AAlaxfan wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
msycajun wrote:
Are we really going to have a thread on a different WN city every day?

SURE....why not ?

Has anyone started the WN DTW thread yet?

While we discuss DTW, let's look at another DL hub: MSP.

ScottB · Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:23 pm

jplatts wrote:
Southwest has been able to successfully compete against American in Dallas, Chicago, Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Washington, D.C. Why would Southwest have trouble competing in Charlotte if it can do well at DAL, MDW, LAX, PHX, DCA, and BWI?

Charlotte is much, much smaller than all the other markets you listed. The next-smallest metro area in your list is Phoenix and that's nearly twice as large in metro population as Charlotte. It's very difficult for a market to sustain robust competition between two players when there simply aren't enough customers to go between them.

dfwjim1 · Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:12 pm

ScottB wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Southwest has been able to successfully compete against American in Dallas, Chicago, Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Washington, D.C. Why would Southwest have trouble competing in Charlotte if it can do well at DAL, MDW, LAX, PHX, DCA, and BWI?

Charlotte is much, much smaller than all the other markets you listed. The next-smallest metro area in your list is Phoenix and that's nearly twice as large in metro population as Charlotte. It's very difficult for a market to sustain robust competition between two players when there simply aren't enough customers to go between them.

I have flown into Charlotte several times, connecting on A.A., and each time am there I can't help but notice how dominating AA is at CLT and the lack of flights from other carriers. For example, I was in CLT last January at a busy time of the day and the only non-AA aircraft I saw was one Southwest and one Frontier plane.

rambleriver · Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:33 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Another factor that I'd like to add is CLT's close proximity to Florida.

If traffic is right and you drive swiftly, Orlando is a 7 hour drive away. Once you factor in the time it takes for a family to get to the airport, wait at the gate, fly down (1.75 hours if you include taxi time), and get a rental car it really isn't worth it.

West Palm is 2 hours further, and Miami another hour.

I disagree. How often is traffic - on 95 - "right"? On top of that, it's roughly 550 miles driving between Charlotte and Orlando, which to make in 7 hours means an *average* speed of 79mph. I'd rather haul the kids through security and fly nonstop...

USAirALB · Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:47 am

rambleriver wrote:
I disagree. How often is traffic - on 95 - "right"? On top of that, it's roughly 550 miles driving between Charlotte and Orlando, which to make in 7 hours means an *average* speed of 79mph. I'd rather haul the kids through security and fly nonstop...

I don't disagree-I prefer to fly than drive and I've only done the drive when I have been forced to.

But a lot of people aren't in the position of having that choice-especially when you consider the cost AA is when flying CLT-MCO.

usflyer msp · Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:33 am

The (oversized relative to the population) AA hub is both a blessing and a curse to Charlotte. Charlotte can boast of unparalleled access to the world for a city of its size however its makes it very difficult for other carriers to compete for the local CLT passengers. No carrier can come anywhere close to AA's breadth and frequency for business passengers and LCC's can easily be driven out because AA can price-match for the local passengers and it won't really affect them much because only 15-20% of AA's passengers are CLT O&D anyway. It is very unfortunate for those that wish for robust competition @ CLT...

phluser · Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:17 am

USAirALB wrote:
rambleriver wrote:
I disagree. How often is traffic - on 95 - "right"? On top of that, it's roughly 550 miles driving between Charlotte and Orlando, which to make in 7 hours means an *average* speed of 79mph. I'd rather haul the kids through security and fly nonstop...

I don't disagree-I prefer to fly than drive and I've only done the drive when I have been forced to.

But a lot of people aren't in the position of having that choice-especially when you consider the cost AA is when flying CLT-MCO.

The drive from Atlanta to Orlando is more doable. But Southwest also tried GSP-MCO, as GSP is in between ATL and CLT, and it didn't succeed, although G4 seems to be making a go for Florida out of there.

I've wondered if Southwest could have avoided the AA/US situation at CLT, and gone into the Concord airport (USA), although it's a very primitive airport - a bit too primitive for even Southwest's standards.

phluser · Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:51 am

phluser wrote:

I've wondered if Southwest could have avoided the AA/US situation at CLT, and gone into the Concord airport (USA), although it's a very primitive airport - a bit too primitive for even Southwest's standards.

An update to that:
http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/ne ... mplex.html

The Concord airport has a new terminal, and is seeking other carriers. I wonder if F9 NK, B6 or WN would consider service. I drove around this area a couple years ago and it seemed to be in a nice area or nice areas were close enough to it.

Some alternate airports have the stigma of being too distant (ACY), wrong side of town (PIE), or with SFB it's near Lake Mary (nice area north of Orlando) but the city of Sanford has sketchy areas.

One benefit of Concord might be a little closer north to pull from GSO area, while obviously still doable for Charlotte pax.

ahj2000 · Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:11 am

usflyer msp wrote:
The (oversized relative to the population) AA hub is both a blessing and a curse to Charlotte. Charlotte can boast of unparalleled access to the world for a city of its size however its makes it very difficult for other carriers to compete for the local CLT passengers. No carrier can come anywhere close to AA's breadth and frequency for business passengers and LCC's can easily be driven out because AA can price-match for the local passengers and it won't really affect them much because only 15-20% of AA's passengers are CLT O&D anyway. It is very unfortunate for those that wish for robust competition @ CLT...

Really it's more a blessing than a curse. US/AA fares have gotten more reasonable as of late (at least in my markets) and it attracts a bunch of business. I'll take it

As to the success of CLT-FLA, I've been to Florida dozens of times in my years in Charlotte and the six times I've flown was because I was by myself(1) fares were ridiculously cheap (1), connecting (2) or because driving would take too much time off a short trip (2). Orlando and Tampa especially aren't a terrible drive. I understand why there isn't much flying O/D, but you have to wonder if A) if fares were consistently cheap enough, flyers would take them, and/or B) if the cnnx out of MCO/FLL on WN or B6 (greatly expanded on both recently) could handle a flight a day.

Cubsrule · Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:41 pm

phluser wrote:
phluser wrote:

I've wondered if Southwest could have avoided the AA/US situation at CLT, and gone into the Concord airport (USA), although it's a very primitive airport - a bit too primitive for even Southwest's standards.

An update to that:
http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/ne ... mplex.html

The Concord airport has a new terminal, and is seeking other carriers. I wonder if F9 NK, B6 or WN would consider service. I drove around this area a couple years ago and it seemed to be in a nice area or nice areas were close enough to it.

Some alternate airports have the stigma of being too distant (ACY), wrong side of town (PIE), or with SFB it's near Lake Mary (nice area north of Orlando) but the city of Sanford has sketchy areas.

One benefit of Concord might be a little closer north to pull from GSO area, while obviously still doable for Charlotte pax.

JQF's time was 15 years ago. When I moved to Charlotte in 2003, getting to CLT from north Mecklenburg County or south Iredell County was not easy, and going across to JQF was comparatively simpler. As Charlotte has grown, the drive to JQF has gotten much more congested and the widening of 77 and the addition of the northwest leg of 485 has substantially improved access to CLT.

The other issue with JQF is that the secondary airports where WN succeeds, by and large, offer "large airport" amenities like Precheck, easy rental car pickup, transit access and nearby nice hotels to business travelers. JQF really isn't in the same category as places like DAL, OAK or MDW in that regard.

USAirALB · Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:15 pm

JQF will never be larger than it presently is today. The facility is relatively bare bones, and is clearly designed just for Allegiant. B6/WN would have no interest in flying there.

I suppose you could possibly make a case for F9/NK to start service there, but both seem relatively content at competing at the larger, "more-expensive" traditional airports. F9 currently flies to CLT and hasn't expressed a desire to make a move to JQF. I suppose that if/when NK enters the CLT market, they will choose CLT as well. If NK/F9 want to capture any sort of business market, they have to stick to larger airports with amenities, such as PreCheck.

jplatts · Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:39 pm

CLT-SFO is the largest market in the United States that is served nonstop by only 1 legacy airline, and Southwest has an opportunity to add CLT-OAK nonstop service. In addition, CLT-PHX is one of the largest markets in the United States that is served nonstop by only one 1 legacy airline, and Southwest clearly has an opportunity to add nonstop service from CLT to PHX.

The westernmost city that has nonstop service on a LCC out of CLT is to DEN on F9. The westernmost city that has nonstop service out of CLT on an airline other than AA is to SLC on DL.

Will Southwest do nonstops from CLT to OAK and PHX?

AWACSooner · Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:01 pm

AAlaxfan wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
msycajun wrote:
Are we really going to have a thread on a different WN city every day?

SURE....why not ?

Has anyone started the WN DTW thread yet?

I call dibs on the WN OKC thread!

Vctony · Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:15 pm

jplatts wrote:
CLT-SFO is the largest market in the United States that is served nonstop by only 1 legacy airline, and Southwest has an opportunity to add CLT-OAK nonstop service. In addition, CLT-PHX is one of the largest markets in the United States that is served nonstop by only one 1 legacy airline, and Southwest clearly has an opportunity to add nonstop service from CLT to PHX.

The westernmost city that has nonstop service on a LCC out of CLT is to DEN on F9. The westernmost city that has nonstop service out of CLT on an airline other than AA is to SLC on DL.

Will Southwest do nonstops from CLT to OAK and PHX?

WN and AA seem to alternate service to many mid-sized markets from PHX.

WN (and not AA) serves: PHX - BNA, BUF, CLE, FLL, ICT, MSY, OAK, RDU, SDF, and TUL

AA (and not WN) serves: PHX - CLT, DSM, FSD, MEM, MIA

With the crazy frequency AA has on PHX - CLT (9X A321) I highly doubt that WN can compete.

klm617 · Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:22 pm

AAlaxfan wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
msycajun wrote:
Are we really going to have a thread on a different WN city every day?

SURE....why not ?

Has anyone started the WN DTW thread yet?

No because any one from Detroit knows that DTW is not a priority for WN since the DET fiasco Southwest has had very little love for this market and it has be stagnant now for almost 30 years as far as the number of flights in and out of Detroit..

klm617 · Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:24 pm

jplatts wrote:
CLT-SFO is the largest market in the United States that is served nonstop by only 1 legacy airline, and Southwest has an opportunity to add CLT-OAK nonstop service. In addition, CLT-PHX is one of the largest markets in the United States that is served nonstop by only one 1 legacy airline, and Southwest clearly has an opportunity to add nonstop service from CLT to PHX.

The westernmost city that has nonstop service on a LCC out of CLT is to DEN on F9. The westernmost city that has nonstop service out of CLT on an airline other than AA is to SLC on DL.

Will Southwest do nonstops from CLT to OAK and PHX?

I think DTW-LAX is much bigger than CLT-SFO and only has one legacy carrier on it.

flyboy7974 · Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:38 pm

AA serves PHX OAK ...........

JetBlueCLT · Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:43 pm

USAirALB wrote:
As has been discussed here before LCC's have historically struggled at CLT.

TZ tried CLT-MDW and failed.

FL tried CLT-MDW/MCO and failed on both.

B6 tried CLT-FLL and failed.

WN tried CLT-MCO and failed.

B6 service to CLT has been stagnant over the years. I think they are only at 2x E190 now to BOS and JFK. I've heard they don't really do so well, especially on CLT-BOS.

A lack of gate space is definitely holding back OAL from expanding at CLT. Hopefully the A North gates will remedy that once they open next year.

Honestly I don't see WN expanding much to CLT. Maybe a flight to STL and one of WN's western bases such as PHX/DEN/LAS, but that would overfly DAL/HOU/MDW/BNA which WN all fly from CLT.

People seem to forget that when B6 ran CLT-FLL there operation at FLL was really small with barley any connecting opportunities. I definitely see the route come back some time in the future. B6 is actually running 1 A320 on the morning JFK flight. In the fall DL is going up to 4X on CLT-JFK... hard to have 2 flights when DL is running 4 and AA is running 6. Better to fly an actual schedule than just 2 JFK & BOS flights.

It's too bad they don't can the CLT-JFK flight and just move those flights to BOS and run 4 daily CLT-BOS flights just to have a solid schedule to work. Obviously nothing close to AA 9 flights but heck of a lot better than 2.

jplatts · Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:53 pm

klm617 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
CLT-SFO is the largest market in the United States that is served nonstop by only 1 legacy airline, and Southwest has an opportunity to add CLT-OAK nonstop service. In addition, CLT-PHX is one of the largest markets in the United States that is served nonstop by only one 1 legacy airline, and Southwest clearly has an opportunity to add nonstop service from CLT to PHX.

The westernmost city that has nonstop service on a LCC out of CLT is to DEN on F9. The westernmost city that has nonstop service out of CLT on an airline other than AA is to SLC on DL.

Will Southwest do nonstops from CLT to OAK and PHX?

I think DTW-LAX is much bigger than CLT-SFO and only has one legacy carrier on it.

Spirit has nonstop service between DTW and LAX, whereas there is no nonstop service on UA or LCCs between CLT and SFO.

tom02 · Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:02 pm

Once A concourse expansion is completed All airlines will move to the new expansion with the exception being DL adding gates on the original part of A con and AA back filling the remaining gates.

Southwest Airlines expansion in Charlotte

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