So we know that DL has ordered the A350 and that fleet integration is expected for 2017. Once the planes are received, do you believe that they will be flying domestically on scheduled routes such as ATL-LAX, and which routes do you think will be flown?

The A350 is a longhaul aircraft and not intended for such routes. We might see a few such flights for crew familiarization flights or at times where the plane would otherwise idle.

A350 wrote:

The A350 is a longhaul aircraft and not intended for such routes. We might see a few such flights for crew familiarization flights or at times where the plane would otherwise idle.

What about stopover flights such as ATL-LAX-SYD?

I'll put money down on DTW-LAX as being the first one. If not, DTW-ATL, but definitely one of the two.

I could see JFK-LAX as a possibility, but that's about it from New York. However, I'd expect more 767-400ER or A330-300s on that route instead.

Are the first DL A350's based in DTW?

tjwgrr wrote:

Are the first DL A350's based in DTW?

Last I checked the A350 base was replacing the 744 base at DTW, so it will be unlikely to see them, other than some proving flight, outside of DTW domestically at first

A350 wrote:

The A350 is a longhaul aircraft and not intended for such routes. We might see a few such flights for crew familiarization flights or at times where the plane would otherwise idle.

American for a good portion of 2015 and 2016 ran their 787s on short routes such as DFW-ORD/LAX for crew familiarization. While the author clearly knows it's a longhaul aircraft, it doesn't prevent Delta from running a few flights similar to those I mentioned.

I expect that we will see a few scheduled domestic flights with their new A350, but not nearly on the same scale as American, operating a couple daily roundtrips every day. I think United last summer ran a daily transcon with their 787-8 and -9 between EWR and SFO. This summer it's replaced with their new 777-300ER of course.

qcpilotxf wrote:

tjwgrr wrote:

Are the first DL A350's based in DTW?

Last I checked the A350 base was replacing the 744 base at DTW, so it will be unlikely to see them, other than some proving flight, outside of DTW domestically at first

For familiarization flights perhaps:

DTW-ATL
DTW-LAX
DTW-SEA
DTW-MSP

and/or maybe
DTW-LAX-ATL-DTW
DTW-ATL-LAX-DTW
DTW-MSP-LAX-MSP-DTW

and so forth....
.
.

A350's will be used for DTW and ATL to Asia, and LAX to the Pacific and Asia. There will of course be shorter-haul familiarisation flights before the full schedule kicks in.

My guess is that you will see them temporarily on ATL-MCO-ATL rotations initially, much like the 777's used to be when they were joining the fleet.

I'll toss this one into mix: Replicate NWs 1989 747-400 domestic introduction by running MSP-PHX roundtrips!

I thought the 744 was broke in on DTW-PHX runs.

Given that it's probable the 359 won't perform long-haul until late fall, it's likely we'll see it enter revenue service domestically. Since the domestic ops are intended to familiarize flight and ground crews with the aircraft, and initial 359 flying will be from DTW, it's a safe bet the domestic ops will involve DTW. IMO, DTW-LAX/SEA are the most probable routes, and I wouldn't be surprised to see ATL-LAX/SEA. JFK-LAX, ATL-MCO, etc. are doubtful (at best).

tjwgrr wrote:

Are the first DL A350's based in DTW?

First base should be DTW.

Second base is still very fluid. LAX, ATL and NYC have all been mentioned.

I'm not sure where indoc is being done on it. I'm assuming MSP since ATL doesn't really have the space and is getting tighter as operations move from TOC 1 for the Trent XWB/1000/7000 engine shop.

but I figure you'll see them in ATL/MSP and the west coast hangar stations.

jeffh747 wrote:

A350 wrote:

The A350 is a longhaul aircraft and not intended for such routes. We might see a few such flights for crew familiarization flights or at times where the plane would otherwise idle.

American for a good portion of 2015 and 2016 ran their 787s on short routes such as DFW-ORD/LAX for crew familiarization. While the author clearly knows it's a longhaul aircraft, it doesn't prevent Delta from running a few flights similar to those I mentioned.

I expect that we will see a few scheduled domestic flights with their new A350, but not nearly on the same scale as American, operating a couple daily roundtrips every day. I think United last summer ran a daily transcon with their 787-8 and -9 between EWR and SFO. This summer it's replaced with their new 777-300ER of course.

Delta will not only need that for flight crew familiarization but for Ground crews and Maintenance crews familiarization.
United made that mistake after the merger in sending the B744 to IAH and EWR without having Experienced maintenance crews in place .
Their performance will be directly impacted by the experience and training of their Maintenance crews.

A350 wrote:

The A350 is a longhaul aircraft and not intended for such routes. We might see a few such flights for crew familiarization flights or at times where the plane would otherwise idle.

Yet an A330 has been running ATL-PHX, a 777 on ATL-LAX, and both a 763ER and 764 on ATL-SAN consistently for the last few months. I don't know that it's fair to quickly and easily squash DL domestic widebody runs so quickly. Yes these may be winter schedules and won't last into the summer, but as the OP didn't specify a time frame other than once they "are received", I'd suggest everything is on the table for the 350s.

Motorhussy wrote:

A350's will be used for DTW and ATL to Asia, and LAX to the Pacific and Asia. There will of course be shorter-haul familiarisation flights before the full schedule kicks in.

Indeed, and as DL is likely to use the same pattern of domestic familiarization as UA and AA when both carriers introduced 787s, the logical routes are DTW-ATL, DTW-LAX, and ATL-LAX.

It's probably going to be DTW-ATL/LAX/MSP initially as other people have said for crew familiarization. Then it'll probably to Asia (NRT as a first route maybe?) and then I think we could see a little a350 usage in the TATL market on premium routes (or aircraft rotation). It's safe to assume that international service probably won't start until the 2nd half of the year...

DL will use the 1st A350 for inflight crew and ground crew training on mostly domestic runs until the 2nd A350 arrives as this aircraft is intended for TPAC and nearly every route (and definitely every route from the initial DTW base) requires two frames. Everyone except the pilots (same rating as the 330) need to be trained on this plane although even the pilots will be given time to familiarize themselves. We should expect this plane to bounce around the system and make visits to JFK, ATL, MSP, LAX plus probably some one-off TPAC trips, maybe even as an unannounced "sub" (from the customer perspective although the crew scheduling will be planned). DTW-LAX is the route that makes the most sense as DL can use the extra capacity on that route in the summer and LAX is often mentioned as the second base but the goal here is to prep stations, TechOps and crews...so it won't be dedicated to just one route.

Doubt JFK will be a destination as no one in maintenance will be going to training for it anytime soon, other stations are being allocated spots most likely being ATL, DTW, MCO, NRT and PVG for starters. All A321 flights started with ATL-MCO-ATL

Well from what I have understood is that DL plans to use the A350 on current routes from LAX and future routes from SEA. Its a rumor that the introduction flight will be ATL-LAX. But on regular use, the aircraft is to replace many 777 routes such as
LAX-SYD
LAX-PVG
LAX-HND

The 777's are to be mainly based out of DTW.

NCavi8tor wrote:

Well from what I have understood is that DL plans to use the A350 on current routes from LAX and future routes from SEA. Its a rumor that the introduction flight will be ATL-LAX. But on regular use, the aircraft is to replace many 777 routes such as
LAX-SYD
LAX-PVG
LAX-HND

The 777's are to be mainly based out of DTW.

Not by what I understand. From what I understand is the 350 will be used directly as a 747 retirement and DTW will be the first crew base. DTW-NRT, ICN, PEK, PVG and the addition of HKG would all be 350, if not PEK would be a 777 and the rest 350, and I believe DTW was already announced as the first crew base? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

flymco753 wrote:

NCavi8tor wrote:

Well from what I have understood is that DL plans to use the A350 on current routes from LAX and future routes from SEA. Its a rumor that the introduction flight will be ATL-LAX. But on regular use, the aircraft is to replace many 777 routes such as
LAX-SYD
LAX-PVG
LAX-HND

The 777's are to be mainly based out of DTW.

Not by what I understand. From what I understand is the 350 will be used directly as a 747 retirement and DTW will be the first crew base. DTW-NRT, ICN, PEK, PVG and the addition of HKG would all be 350, if not PEK would be a 777 and the rest 350, and I believe DTW was already announced as the first crew base? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, I would like to know where in the world you got that rumor from? I certainly understand that Detroit was the introductory station for the 350.

I sure hope LAX and ATL are the first 2 bases and MSP soon after, DTW doesnt need the 350 with perfectly good 777 planes.

NCavi8tor wrote:

Well from what I have understood is that DL plans to use the A350 on current routes from LAX and future routes from SEA. Its a rumor that the introduction flight will be ATL-LAX. But on regular use, the aircraft is to replace many 777 routes such as
LAX-SYD
LAX-PVG
LAX-HND

The 777's are to be mainly based out of DTW.

You must have gotten that rumor from way out in left field. DTW will be the the first base to directly replace 1-1 the 747. The weekly update the pilots get states this.

What isn't known yet is where the familiarization flights will fly to. That won't be known for at least a couple months. I suspect there will also be ground training in DTW and ATL as well.

Interesting. The LAX plan that NCavi8tor describes in his post does not seem that far-fetched considering that LAX is a very competitive and critical market. However, as others have explained, it has been mentioned since long ago that the A359s will first go to DTW in order to replace the 744s... unless the 744s are to be replaced by 77Es/77Ls instead, but that would be a very recent change of heart by DL. NCavi8tor, where did you get this info? In any case, I think there is a lot of excitement about DL getting the A359s hehehe. They cannot come soon enough.

777Mech wrote:

What isn't known yet is where the familiarization flights will fly to. That won't be known for at least a couple months. I suspect there will also be ground training in DTW and ATL as well.

Off topic, but somewhat related. Do airlines still train pilots using actual air-frames, or is that strictly done in simulators now? I remember when Northwest took delivery of the B744 and the A320... we had a number of training flights here for both types in GRR which came out of DTW- somewhere I have video of the 744 doing practice approaches and touch and goes. Would love to see the 350 here.

There will be a number of passenger-less flights to begin with for training purposes and more importantly FAA certification. Thinking back to UA and the 787, it took well over one month of passenger-less flights post delivery to get the new type FAA certified for operations.

NCavi8tor wrote:

Well from what I have understood is that DL plans to use the A350 on current routes from LAX and future routes from SEA. Its a rumor that the introduction flight will be ATL-LAX. But on regular use, the aircraft is to replace many 777 routes such as
LAX-SYD
LAX-PVG
LAX-HND

The 777's are to be mainly based out of DTW.

I would not put it past Delta to do this being there is nothing official put out yet outlining plans for the A350 to be based at DTW and as there is little to no real investment going into the Detroit hub to enhance service there this scenario makes perfect sense.

fpetrutiu wrote:

My guess is that you will see them temporarily on ATL-MCO-ATL rotations initially, much like the 777's used to be when they were joining the fleet.

Yeah, I thought DL liked to run new aircraft between ATL and MCO. Perhaps that's just historically, but that seems to be a favorite breaking-in route of theirs.

Well as we have been told the Airbus A350-900 is the new flagship aircraft and will operate flagship routes. I know some people that work for Delta in LAX and they are speculating that the aircraft will be based in the pacific markets and hubs.

If you thing about it, the A350 makes more sense to debut out of LAX and SEA to attract passengers from competitors. The B777s cabin MODs are to happen soon after the debut of the A350 and will be placed on routes from DTW & MSP since their is no competition on these routes by other carriers. So overall, why would Delta try to have an impressive flagship aircraft our of DTW or MSP when they are the largest carriers there. Also LAX and SEA are the two hubs getting the most attention during the upcoming years, so they will be the ones with all the new perks of flying Delta.

NCavi8tor wrote:

Well as we have been told the Airbus A350-900 is the new flagship aircraft and will operate flagship routes. I know some people that work for Delta in LAX and they are speculating that the aircraft will be based in the pacific markets and hubs.

If you thing about it, the A350 makes more sense to debut out of LAX and SEA to attract passengers from competitors. The B777s cabin MODs are to happen soon after the debut of the A350 and will be placed on routes from DTW & MSP since their is no competition on these routes by other carriers. So overall, why would Delta try to have an impressive flagship aircraft our of DTW or MSP when they are the largest carriers there. Also LAX and SEA are the two hubs getting the most attention during the upcoming years, so they will be the ones with all the new perks of flying Delta.

That's not entirely true. The reason the a/c makes the most sense for DTW is because it can make Asia with no restrictions. The current 777 flight to PVG is already payload optimized, correct me if I'm wrong. PEK is extremely optimized on the 332. It'll also allow DTW-HKG with no restrictions. My question is why deploy more seats on a plane that can easily do the distance from DTW where the 777 would still be payload optimized? They can replace PEK with a 350 and rotate 2 332 frames elsewhere. It wouldn't make sense to me to put that plane at LAX or SEA, especially when it's been internally announced DTW would be the first base and the aircraft will replace a 747 one by one. My thought...

flymco753 wrote:

NCavi8tor wrote:

Well as we have been told the Airbus A350-900 is the new flagship aircraft and will operate flagship routes. I know some people that work for Delta in LAX and they are speculating that the aircraft will be based in the pacific markets and hubs.

If you thing about it, the A350 makes more sense to debut out of LAX and SEA to attract passengers from competitors. The B777s cabin MODs are to happen soon after the debut of the A350 and will be placed on routes from DTW & MSP since their is no competition on these routes by other carriers. So overall, why would Delta try to have an impressive flagship aircraft our of DTW or MSP when they are the largest carriers there. Also LAX and SEA are the two hubs getting the most attention during the upcoming years, so they will be the ones with all the new perks of flying Delta.

That's not entirely true. The reason the a/c makes the most sense for DTW is because it can make Asia with no restrictions. The current 777 flight to PVG is already payload optimized, correct me if I'm wrong. PEK is extremely optimized on the 332. It'll also allow DTW-HKG with no restrictions. My question is why deploy more seats on a plane that can easily do the distance from DTW where the 777 would still be payload optimized? They can replace PEK with a 350 and rotate 2 332 frames elsewhere. It wouldn't make sense to me to put that plane at LAX or SEA, especially when it's been internally announced DTW would be the first base and the aircraft will replace a 747 one by one. My thought...

Just because the A350 is intended to replace the B747 doesn't mean that its replacing the B747 routes. Also note that theB747 range is much less compared to the A350 which totally makes the B777-200ER/LR an ideal replacement for those routes. See it this way, the B717 was to replace the old and fuel inefficient CRJ-200. Yet, the B717 was placed on routes that where not operated on CRJ-200's but on many other routes that allowed the CRJ-700/900 to reach those CRJ-200 cities.
Also, I never said the A350 would not be seen in DTW, but its debut will most likely be in the western hubs and then make its way to the east to open new routes.

"Delta looks to add Sydney to its nascent Airbus A350 network once the advanced jets begin flying in late 2017, bringing the airline's new Delta One private business class suites onto the highly competitive trans-Pacific route. Delta is also said to continue running the numbers on launching a direct Melbourne-Los Angeles service."

Everyone is saying a350 will be from DTW to pacific
Any chance we'll see JFK-TLV-JFK-NRT-JFK?

JFK-TLV for sure, JFK-NRT not likely with the HND debogale.

If the first A350 base really is Detroit which I'm not sold on yet and Delta does use it on the LAX-SYD route does that not mean that there would have to be a daily DTW-LAX rotation to feed this flight and is it possible that Delta will be running a one-stop flight with the routing DTW-LAX-SYD-LAX-DTW

Guys. There are 25 A350s coming over the next 3-4 years. Not all of them will be based in one place, they will be placed across a number of hubs, most likely DTW-Asia, LAX-Asia/Oceania, SEA-Asia (although the A339 has a potential role there) and ATL-Asia. This year will see only 5 deliveries. It does make sense to base them all in one spot especially given that most Asian routes require two frames per route. All internal correspondence at DL suggests that these first 5 frames will be based at DTW to serve Asian routes. Some of those Asian routes allow for domestic rotations in between flights so we could see DTW-ATL/LAX or even perhaps DTW-Europe turns to maximise aircraft utilisation and continue training crews. As more frames arrive more bases will be built across the network. LAX looks like a strong candidate for hub #2 in 2018/19. Could at that time, DL pull the A350s out of DTW and replace them with 777s while focusing the A350s on the West Coast, sure. But as far as 2017 (all 5 months of 2017 in which A350s will be on property!), all indications are that they will call DTW home.

The A350 probably will do many ATL to MCO as the 777 have done for years so pilots keep up their landings.

hkcanadaexpat wrote:

DTW-Asia, LAX-Asia/Oceania, SEA-Asia (although the A339 has a potential role there) and ATL-Asia.

I remember when they were ordered with Airbus and a senior DL Planning manager said exactly the above, with the A339 said to be serving Europe and further South America, and North Asia from SeaTac.

Motorhussy wrote:

hkcanadaexpat wrote:

DTW-Asia, LAX-Asia/Oceania, SEA-Asia (although the A339 has a potential role there) and ATL-Asia.

I remember when they were ordered with Airbus and a senior DL Planning manager said exactly the above, with the A339 said to be serving Europe and further South America, and North Asia from SeaTac.

Ideal routes for the A330-900NEO are SEA-Asia, with the possible exception of SEA-HKG and, if launched, SEA-MNL, ATL/DTW/JFK-Deep South America, and long TATL which include West Coast-Europe and JFK-TLV. So basically routes 5,000 miles and longer. The A350-900s will for sure be DTW-Asia, more likely than not LAX-Asia/Oceania, not sure about ATL-Asia. Delta is reportedly planning on consolidating the 777 fleet at ATL/JFK so ATL-ICN/NRT may end up being the only Asian routes being flown by the 777 four years from now.

hkcanadaexpat wrote:

Guys. There are 25 A350s coming over the next 3-4 years. Not all of them will be based in one place, they will be placed across a number of hubs, most likely DTW-Asia, LAX-Asia/Oceania, SEA-Asia (although the A339 has a potential role there) and ATL-Asia. This year will see only 5 deliveries. .

There will be only 15 A350s. In talks now to defer ten A350s indefinitely. But, expect an order for 40-50 more 321s.

tjwgrr wrote:

Off topic, but somewhat related. Do airlines still train pilots using actual air-frames, or is that strictly done in simulators now? I remember when Northwest took delivery of the B744 and the A320... we had a number of training flights here for both types in GRR which came out of DTW- somewhere I have video of the 744 doing practice approaches and touch and goes. Would love to see the 350 here.

Depends on what the regulator has to say, under EASA the A330/A350 is a common type rating, where I work it is also a common type rating and I fly both the A330/A350. The training consisted of computer based differences training, similar sessions, and a number of A350 line flights. Under FAA 8900.1 the A350 is not a common type rating with the A330, so they will need to do all the requirements for a new type rating (777->787 is similar under the FAA under 8900.1 but common type rating elsewhere)

okie73 wrote:

hkcanadaexpat wrote:

Guys. There are 25 A350s coming over the next 3-4 years. Not all of them will be based in one place, they will be placed across a number of hubs, most likely DTW-Asia, LAX-Asia/Oceania, SEA-Asia (although the A339 has a potential role there) and ATL-Asia. This year will see only 5 deliveries. .

There will be only 15 A350s. In talks now to defer ten A350s indefinitely. But, expect an order for 40-50 more 321s.

Until there is a press release saying so, it's not true. We are still getting 25 350s as of today. I know it's a big rumor that it will get reduced to 15 but it's just a rumor for now

I stick firm to DTW-PVG being the first regularly scheduled rotation for the 350. The 744, even the 777 has to go payload optimized. Totally seen a situation where the flight was oversold and payload optimized on a 777, let's say some people weren't happy.