Last week Avianca's Hernán Rincón sent a letter to Colombia's President stating that his government was negotiation an "unfair" deal with Qatar Airways. Rincón stated that the Aerocivil, Colombia's civil aviation regulatory agency, is offering Qatar Airways deals that go against competition regulations set by this same agency and warned that such actions would generate unbalances in the market that would make it harder for companies like Avianca to compete efficiently. Rincón also stated that Qatar wants to fly to Colombia from other destinations that Avianca already flies to non-stop (he specially named: MAD, BCN, MIA, LAX, LIM and SCL) and insisted that Qatar Airways should fly directly from Qatar in order to develop that market first and do layovers in cities that are not served yet to/from Colombia (like MXP and FCO).

Aerocivil's director issued a statement stating that they are looking to include more airlines in the Colombian market to offer more options for the people and that they've been careful with designating routes as Avianca is fully aware of. He also stated that they're looking forward to the end of the month where they expect to hear a response from AV regarding routes petitioned by the agency.

http://www.eltiempo.com/economia/empres ... mbia-68892 (in Spanish)

This reminds me of Delta's altercations with Middle Eastern carriers. What can we expect to happen in the future?

IMHO Avianca is right. The Colombia-Qatar market is very small. They don't have a reason to ever fly to Doha. Why should they be exposed to that kind of competition in the markets they do have interest in?
Colombia should only grant fifth freedom rights in markets that are irrelevant for a Colombian airline.

The current Qatar - Colombia bilateral air agreement, is way too ambiguous (see link below, in Spanish only, sorry). Unlike other agreements where the fifth freedom destination points are clearly defined, here they were left as "to be determined by both countries authorities"; which opens the door to really anything.

Funny enough the original agreement specified Caracas, Kingston, Bridgetown or Montevideo as the fifth freedom destination points

Current agreement (Feb 2013)

http://www.aerocivil.gov.co/normativida ... arch=qatar

Original agreement (Jan 2013)

http://www.aerocivil.gov.co/normativida ... arch=qatar

I dunno. These fifth freedom flights always confuse me. I'm a huge supporter of competition, but when it's unfair playing field, it becomes difficult to support these flights knowing that one airline will ultimately have to leave the market.

While AV does have a right to complain about BOG to Spain why would Qatar fly to or from BOG to LAX, Lima or Santiago ? Qatar would do far better combining BOG with another Caribbean destination like Santo Domingo the DR. IF things were normal in Venezuela then Caracas and BOG would make a nice combo. Panama would make a nice destination for Qatar in that part of the world. BOG just doesn't make sense.

C010T3 wrote:

They don't have a reason to ever fly to Doha.

The only reason would probably be for the 2022 World Cup but that's what charters are for

720B wrote:

The current Qatar - Colombia bilateral air agreement, is way too ambiguous (see link below, in Spanish only, sorry). Unlike other agreements where the fifth freedom destination points are clearly defined, here they were left as "to be determined by both countries authorities"; which opens the door to really anything.

Funny enough the original agreement specified Caracas, Kingston, Bridgetown or Montevideo as the fifth freedom destination points

CCS would have been an ideal fifth freedom but not with their current circumstances. AV is already developing Bridgetown and apparently it's going well after a first rough months of operation. Ideal fifth freedoms would be FCO or MXP, any other city in Spain besides MAD and BCN, and most Caribbean destinations. I would also option for other secondary Colombian destinations like CTG, BAQ, CLO etc

jfk777 wrote:

why would Qatar fly to or from BOG to LAX, Lima or Santiago ?

Maybe Qatar has some interesting plans cooking up after the 10% LATAM acquisition.

jfk777 wrote:

While AV does have a right to complain about BOG to Spain why would Qatar fly to or from BOG to LAX, Lima or Santiago ? Qatar would do far better combining BOG with another Caribbean destination like Santo Domingo the DR. IF things were normal in Venezuela then Caracas and BOG would make a nice combo. Panama would make a nice destination for Qatar in that part of the world. BOG just doesn't make sense.

Why would BOG (the capital of a country of almost 50 million people) not make sense, but PTY (the capital of a country of 3 million people) would??

Believe it or not, but CCS, if done right, is extremely high-yielding. And both BOG and CCS are oil (and gas, at least CCS) capitals, so the petroindustry links are there.

Why doesn't LIM or SCL make sense? DOH-BOG-LIM/SCL is perfectly logical, isn't it? And don't forget that for the return flight to DOH, QR would most probably need to stop somewhere due to BOG's elevation, so even DOH-BOG-LIM-DOH is possible.

I do agree with AV argument that they should serve routes uncovered maybe MXP FCO but not sure how much more demand is there to/from EU i mean it's pretty well covered already with LHR FRA AMS MAD BCN CDG but again i remember in the 90's AV had flights to ATH stockholm and FCO just not sure how beneficial this will be to QR

OGLOBAL wrote:

I do agree with AV argument that they should serve routes uncovered maybe MXP FCO but not sure how much more demand is there to/from EU i mean it's pretty well covered already with LHR FRA AMS MAD BCN CDG but again i remember in the 90's AV had flights to ATH stockholm and FCO just not sure how beneficial this will be to QR

AV never served Stockholm.

MalevTU134 wrote:

OGLOBAL wrote:

I do agree with AV argument that they should serve routes uncovered maybe MXP FCO but not sure how much more demand is there to/from EU i mean it's pretty well covered already with LHR FRA AMS MAD BCN CDG but again i remember in the 90's AV had flights to ATH stockholm and FCO just not sure how beneficial this will be to QR

AV never served Stockholm.

they did

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_destinations


https://www.airliners.net/photo/Avianca/ ... cxZw%3D%3D

Avianca never served Stockholm. The photo
on this website showing an Avianca 747 was
a one off flight to the Nobel Prize ceremony.
Information on Wikipedia is probably derived from
that photo.
BWIA served Stockholm in the late 80s. So did Cubana for a couple of years aswell some 15 years ago or so. Those have
been the only Latin American/Carribean carriers. .
In the early 90s SU-flights to SCL also made a stopover in ARN with the il-62.

ARN wrote:

Avianca never served Stockholm. The photo
on this website showing an Avianca 747 was
a one off flight to the Nobel Prize ceremony.
Information on Wikipedia is probably derived from
that photo.
BWIA served Stockholm in the late 80s. So did Cubana for a couple of years aswell some 15 years ago or so. Those have
been the only Latin American/Carribean carriers. .
In the early 90s SU-flights to SCL also made a stopover in ARN with the il-62.

good to know thanks

While I normally would agree that the ME3 have unfair tactics... Avianca is quite crony itself. Just look at the United deal they're trying to pull off. And the whole ownership structure with Synergy.

C010T3 wrote:

IMHO Avianca is right. The Colombia-Qatar market is very small. They don't have a reason to ever fly to Doha. Why should they be exposed to that kind of competition in the markets they do have interest in?
Colombia should only grant fifth freedom rights in markets that are irrelevant for a Colombian airline.

AV should be protecting its turf, it's their right and duty, but what's good for AV is not necessarily good for the consumer. Everything I've read about Europe-LatAm fares is that they are too high. More competition would lower fares and increase traffic, all good things for the consumer and the Colombian economy.

since most of us live in a democracy, the benefits to citizens should be of prime importance. I prefer whichever airline can provide better service for lower costs.

ARN wrote:

Avianca never served Stockholm. The photo
on this website showing an Avianca 747 was
a one off flight to the Nobel Prize ceremony.
Information on Wikipedia is probably derived from
that photo.
BWIA served Stockholm in the late 80s. So did Cubana for a couple of years aswell some 15 years ago or so. Those have
been the only Latin American/Carribean carriers. .
In the early 90s SU-flights to SCL also made a stopover in ARN with the il-62.

Slightly off topic, but:
You are right about AV. That flight took Gabriel García Márquez and his entourage back to Colombia from the Nobel week in Stockholm.

BW flew POS-BGI-ARN-BGI-TAB-POS in the early to mid 90s.

CU never flew regular flights to ARN. They did fly HAV-CPH-MAN-HAV (in the best case; on several occasions (when the scheduled DC10 suddenly, without warning, turned out to be an IL62) I flew CPH-MAN-YQX (Gander)-SCU (Santiago de Cuba)-CYO (Cayo Largo)-HAV).

The SU IL62 flights you refer to went SVO-ARN-SNN-HAV-LIM-SCL.

Those were the days....

as much as i love AV but they've always done what's best for them. Their expansion policy is very conservative their prices are crazy high specially where there is no competition and they managed to kick out every competition. i do miss the good old days when ACES SAM and AV were around ..

off topic but did they ever add any routes in their SAL hub ? i just see potential in all their hubs but they are really falling behind LAN and Copa

MalevTU134 wrote:

Believe it or not, but CCS, if done right, is extremely high-yielding. And both BOG and CCS are oil (and gas, at least CCS) capitals, so the petroindustry links are there.

QR seems to be rather sensitive to market and business demands (at least more so, than - comparatively - EY), and with the current situation in Venezuela - I doubt they would be able to get necessary air transport approval, or the cash/return agreements in place, in time - before the situation in Venezuela gets any better. It would expose them to alot of risk, and they would have to 'sweat' it out, until the nation's economy improves. Certainly it will, but the relative uncertainty makes new entry risky. I get precisely what you are saying though - there will always be a demand, and that demand (at the best of times, is a crown jewel in the AA Latin American Corona). Getting in, while the market is depressed - is a smart move, if you know if and how it will improve. Until that point, it's a bigger risk than might be worth.

All that said, it is more likely (due to operational constraints) than this...

MalevTU134 wrote:

Why doesn't LIM or SCL make sense? DOH-BOG-LIM/SCL is perfectly logical, isn't it? And don't forget that for the return flight to DOH, QR would most probably need to stop somewhere due to BOG's elevation, so even DOH-BOG-LIM-DOH is possible.

I guess it is about routing. "Backtracking" through LIM might be an issue. Interestingly, your pairing of CCS would be a very good one, and not jeopardize or canabalize any LATAM feeds/yields.

BOG-LIM would compete - not only against AV, but T0 (Avianca Peru), but also FC (Viva Colombia).
As is, it is achievable (via code-share, or via JV/ATI in future), on LP (Latam Peru), and 4C (Latam Colombia, formerly Aires).

This then returns the idea of CCS - which, despite the detractors; would be a decent GCMapper stop...

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=doh-bog%0D%0Adoh-ccs-bog&MS=wls&DU=mi
DOH BOG 292° (W) 289° (W) 8,261 mi

2 segment path:
DOH CCS 293° (NW) 291° (W) 7,630 mi
CCS BOG 231° (SW) 243° (SW) 636 mi
8,266 mi (+0.1%)

P.S. - the GCMapper route would need to be adjusted some, in order to be used in the real world. As is, flying over Libya would be inadvisable, and tracking the whole thing North (a smidgen) so as to maximize the flight time over the Med., might be worth it. Either way, approx. .1% would make a decent argument for CCS, even sweeter. I am sure that cheap fuel, and perhaps an ability to use said locally 'trapped' currency', might make it even more so. Don't overnight crews there, but still, a great stop - just with noticeable risks of when the overall Venezuelan economy is not set to see stability in the near/medium term.

Rajahdhani wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

Believe it or not, but CCS, if done right, is extremely high-yielding. And both BOG and CCS are oil (and gas, at least CCS) capitals, so the petroindustry links are there.

QR seems to be rather sensitive to market and business demands (at least more so, than - comparatively - EY), and with the current situation in Venezuela - I doubt they would be able to get necessary air transport approval, or the cash/return agreements in place, in time - before the situation in Venezuela gets any better. It would expose them to alot of risk, and they would have to 'sweat' it out, until the nation's economy improves. Certainly it will, but the relative uncertainty makes new entry risky. I get precisely what you are saying though - there will always be a demand, and that demand (at the best of times, is a crown jewel in the AA Latin American Corona). Getting in, while the market is depressed - is a smart move, if you know if and how it will improve. Until that point, it's a bigger risk than might be worth.

All that said, it is more likely (due to operational constraints) than this...

MalevTU134 wrote:

Why doesn't LIM or SCL make sense? DOH-BOG-LIM/SCL is perfectly logical, isn't it? And don't forget that for the return flight to DOH, QR would most probably need to stop somewhere due to BOG's elevation, so even DOH-BOG-LIM-DOH is possible.

I guess it is about routing. "Backtracking" through LIM might be an issue. Interestingly, your pairing of CCS would be a very good one, and not jeopardize or canabalize any LATAM feeds/yields.

BOG-LIM would compete - not only against AV, but T0 (Avianca Peru), but also FC (Viva Colombia).
As is, it is achievable (via code-share, or via JV/ATI in future), on LP (Latam Peru), and 4C (Latam Colombia, formerly Aires).

This then returns the idea of CCS - which, despite the detractors; would be a decent GCMapper stop...

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=doh-bog%0D%0Adoh-ccs-bog&MS=wls&DU=mi
DOH BOG 292° (W) 289° (W) 8,261 mi

2 segment path:
DOH CCS 293° (NW) 291° (W) 7,630 mi
CCS BOG 231° (SW) 243° (SW) 636 mi
8,266 mi (+0.1%)

P.S. - the GCMapper route would need to be adjusted some, in order to be used in the real world. As is, flying over Libya would be inadvisable, and tracking the whole thing North (a smidgen) so as to maximize the flight time over the Med., might be worth it. Either way, approx. .1% would make a decent argument for CCS, even sweeter. I am sure that cheap fuel, and perhaps an ability to use said locally 'trapped' currency', might make it even more so. Don't overnight crews there, but still, a great stop - just with noticeable risks of when the overall Venezuelan economy is not set to see stability in the near/medium term.

Getting approval from the Venezuelan side is no problem nowadays, as illegitimate President Maduro is happy for every scratch to his back as more and more airlines have been leaving the market. The authorities would approve flights here at the blink of an eye. What you call cash return agreements are (if they would even sign anything like that today) totally worthless, since the government has no foreign currency with which to honour those agreements. And cheap jet fuel at CCS does not exist, it's a myth. It's actually more costly than at most other airports. As you see, Venezuela is a market with specific challenges, but the market is definitely workable and high yielding, if done right. Nobody suggests that QR do CCS as a stand-alone destination, but rather coupled with another destination. Where they would do a killing is coupling CCS with MIA or FLL (hypothetical...those rights they will not get).

Now, as for QR potential BOG route... Yes, CCS would be a potential stop, but LIM is not as bad as it seems. (And your list of competing airlines, while correct, is irrelevant, since QR wouldn't go for the BOG-LIM market...which they would only serve one-way in the example I gave.) LIM is a big market in a rapidly growing economy, with free trade agreements in place with several Asian countries, relatively wealthy Japanese diaspora...and this would be the only flight to any Asian destination from LIM. As a comparison, KL used to fly BOG-CLO (Cali)-AMS, and TK flies BOG-PTY-IST, so it wouldn't be the first flight to backtrack from BOG in order to be able to take off with some meaningful loads.