ASFlyer
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:19 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This is not overly shocking. Delta wants seats to feed its Asian connections and ORD is a major origin of that traffic. Also Delta wants to serve all of the important business destinations for Frequent Flyers. No one can be too shocked at this, Delta is going all cards in on making Asia work. This is a minor investment to support that.


This isn't about Asia any more than adding JNU, SIT or KTN were. This is purely to your second point - DL needs to add ORD to be relevant in SEA. They're still missing a few other important cities from SEA but ORD was inevitable.
 
drdisque
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:43 am

I suspect this will end up carrying quite a bit of spill LGA-ORD-SEA and DTW-ORD-SEA
 
ITB
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:55 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Hmm....guess it makes sense, if DL is determined to continue the evolution of SEA as it's anchor TPAC gateway. The big 3 are all on busy routes like ORD-LGA-ORD, so this may work. My concern is that ORD POS to Asia will largely be captured by UA/AA and their alliance partners so opportunities may be limited there for ORD-ASIA market share.

If the ticket's cheaper than flying direct from ORD, a good number of travelers will be OK with ORD-SEA-Asia.
 
ITB
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:24 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This is not overly shocking. Delta wants seats to feed its Asian connections and ORD is a major origin of that traffic. Also Delta wants to serve all of the important business destinations for Frequent Flyers. No one can be too shocked at this, Delta is going all cards in on making Asia work. This is a minor investment to support that.

Adding SEA-ORD to the network is prudent because Frequent Flyers value direct flights, and as DL builds its Frequent Flyer base in Seattle, each additional city-pair will be seen as a plus.

As for Delta's Asian network, it's taken a significant hit with the dropping of BKK and TPE. Moreover, both MNL and SIN seem to be twisting in the wind as the process to dehub NRT continues. If DL really wants to maintain a powerhouse Asian network to serve its business-class customers, a way must be found to ensure those four mega cities remain on, and return to, the route map.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:32 am

Next we'll probably hear about DL offering a free meal SEA-ORD...it was no coincidence that they were pretty much all AS/VX routes previously announced as getting one.
 
rwsea
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:50 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This is not overly shocking. Delta wants seats to feed its Asian connections and ORD is a major origin of that traffic. Also Delta wants to serve all of the important business destinations for Frequent Flyers. No one can be too shocked at this, Delta is going all cards in on making Asia work. This is a minor investment to support that.


They're only going to get the lowest of low yield traffic then. No one will prefer a long layover in SEA vs. a nonstop from ORD or shorter connection at DTW. This has to be aimed at local O&D traffic and connections in the Pacific Northwest.
 
ckfred
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:54 am

How many more flights can DL add at ORD? When DL and NW merged, the issue was taht DL lacked enough gate space on L to take on the NW flights to its hubs. The NW gates on E weren't sufficient to accept all DL flights to its hubs. I know that US shifted its flying to Terminal 3, after US and AA started combining operations, but the US gates were subleased from UA, IIRC.
 
n7371f
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:28 am

Folks...DL has major contracts with Seattle's major companies. ORD is a gaping omission on their route map from out here that was a hinderance to their corporate contracts. It's more about that, and the ever-increasing intra-NW/region connections via SEA that make the route work - than it is about Asia.
 
BroadwayLimited
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:29 pm

Delta just confirmed Seattle will have 163 flights this summer, again up from 38 in the summer of 2011.

http://news.delta.com/delta-begin-seatt ... une-2017-0
 
ckfred
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:47 pm

n7371f wrote:
Folks...DL has major contracts with Seattle's major companies. ORD is a gaping omission on their route map from out here that was a hinderance to their corporate contracts. It's more about that, and the ever-increasing intra-NW/region connections via SEA that make the route work - than it is about Asia.


It would be interesting to know how many corporate contracts AS has lost to DL.
 
Prost
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:49 pm

I doubt AS has lost any corporate contracts to DL. My guess is the corporations signed additional contracts with DL, not replacement contracts.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:33 pm

BroadwayLimited wrote:
Delta just confirmed Seattle will have 163 flights this summer, again up from 38 in the summer of 2011.

http://news.delta.com/delta-begin-seatt ... une-2017-0


Three years ago, Delta said they would be offering 150+ flights in 2017. Looks like they're on-plan - in spite of a few bumps along the way.

http://www.seattlebusinessmag.com/artic ... vs-delta-0
 
jumbojet
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:43 pm

Overthecascades wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
rwsea wrote:
Wouldn't seem to make much sense to fly ORD-SEA-HKG when there are nonstop flights on CX and UA. Same goes for PVG, PEK, and other Asian cities served from SEA.


Even if you're flying DL for some reason it would make no sense to fly ORD-SEA-PEK or ORD-SEA-PVG:
ORD-SEA-PEK would have a 6:55 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-PVG would have a 3:55 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-HKG would have a 3:06 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-ICN would have a 2:11 layover in SEA
I did not check but I'm pretty sure DL would offer better (faster) travel on ORD-DTW-PEK and ORD-DTW-PVG when considering the flight times.
But even this would only apply to low yield passengers willing to make multiple connections for a lower fare. As you pointed out, all others are going to fly ORD-Asia nonstop on UA, AA, or any of the Asian carriers.


ORD SEA HKG layover in Seattle is 5 hours.


And there are plenty of folks that would take the 5 hour layover just to avoid the disaster that is UA and AA at ORD. Plus, if the price is right, DL will get folks to connect through SEA as opposed to non-stops on AA/UA out of ORD. You are more likely to get delayed on a AA and a UA flight than on a DL flight.
 
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ER757
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:04 pm

bfitzflyer wrote:
way back in the 70's possibly early 80's NW flew this route, I think even with DC10

Actually well into the 90's if I recall correctly. Was a DC-10, flight #75 westbound, #76 eastbound - BOS/ORD/SEA/ANC and return. Flew the ORD/SEA leg a few times
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:11 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Overthecascades wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

Even if you're flying DL for some reason it would make no sense to fly ORD-SEA-PEK or ORD-SEA-PVG:
ORD-SEA-PEK would have a 6:55 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-PVG would have a 3:55 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-HKG would have a 3:06 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-ICN would have a 2:11 layover in SEA
I did not check but I'm pretty sure DL would offer better (faster) travel on ORD-DTW-PEK and ORD-DTW-PVG when considering the flight times.
But even this would only apply to low yield passengers willing to make multiple connections for a lower fare. As you pointed out, all others are going to fly ORD-Asia nonstop on UA, AA, or any of the Asian carriers.


ORD SEA HKG layover in Seattle is 5 hours.


And there are plenty of folks that would take the 5 hour layover just to avoid the disaster that is UA and AA at ORD. Plus, if the price is right, DL will get folks to connect through SEA as opposed to non-stops on AA/UA out of ORD. You are more likely to get delayed on a AA and a UA flight than on a DL flight.


Who are those "plenty of folks?" Certainly not anyone whose time is at all valuable.

ORD has its issues no doubt, but on-time performance, especially of widebody international flights of the sort relevant here, is no longer one of them.
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tlecam
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:16 pm

Flight options are never a bad thing. I too suspect that given ORD's corporate presence and size, that DL will add spokes from RDU, BOS as well at some point. How anyone makes money on these routes is another question.

I am less sold on how much the ORD spoke is aimed at Asia traffic. My guess is that it's aimed at O&D and that any connecting Asia traffic is gravy.
Last edited by tlecam on Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OA412
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:18 pm

Come on people. This is obviously a move to fill in an O/D gap and thus strengthen the SEA hub. Those arguing this is about Asia are, IMHO, off base. Why would anyone choose to connect in SEA when there are so many nonstops to Asia from Chicago?
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MSPNWA
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:04 pm

rwsea wrote:
They're only going to get the lowest of low yield traffic then. No one will prefer a long layover in SEA vs. a nonstop from ORD or shorter connection at DTW. This has to be aimed at local O&D traffic and connections in the Pacific Northwest.

Lowest of the low is basically DL's business model right now in the SEA hub. They have to rely on connections for the international segments. People will book it at the right price. These flights look to be aimed primarily at O&D, but DL isn't going to look away from the other source of filling the planes. It certainly appears they're also timed for some connections.

And I think people forget that this isn't just about ORD-based customers. This is also about DL getting their customers to ORD. Going from Asia to ORD on DL isn't easy.
 
BroadwayLimited
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BroadwayLimited wrote:
Delta just confirmed Seattle will have 163 flights this summer, again up from 38 in the summer of 2011.

http://news.delta.com/delta-begin-seatt ... une-2017-0

Three years ago, Delta said they would be offering 150+ flights in 2017. Looks like they're on-plan - in spite of a few bumps along the way.


Last year, (in the summer of 2016), they had 152 flights from Seattle. So Delta was actually a year ahead of their projections of 150+ by 2017.
 
ScottB
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:39 pm

globalcabotage wrote:
This is for O&D connecting the 3rd largest metro area in the US with the growing SEA hub.


This is what it's about, not connections over SEA. Chicago is the fifth-largest O&D market from Seattle and it is currently the largest market from SEA without non-stop service on DL. With the end of the DL-AS agreement coming in May, DL needs to be in the top markets from SEA to be relevant to high-value customers in the Seattle area. WAS, DFW/DAL, IAH/HOU, MCO, MIA/FLL, PHL, and STL are the remaining top 30 SEA markets without DL non-stop service.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:13 am

ScottB wrote:
globalcabotage wrote:
This is for O&D connecting the 3rd largest metro area in the US with the growing SEA hub.


This is what it's about, not connections over SEA. Chicago is the fifth-largest O&D market from Seattle and it is currently the largest market from SEA without non-stop service on DL. With the end of the DL-AS agreement coming in May, DL needs to be in the top markets from SEA to be relevant to high-value customers in the Seattle area. WAS, DFW/DAL, IAH/HOU, MCO, MIA/FLL, PHL, and STL are the remaining top 30 SEA markets without DL non-stop service.


There's already a Delta SEA-MCO non-stop - a redeye 757.

SEA-FLL appears to be Friday only. Cruise traffic?

Given that AA only operates once a day weekdays (at least the week of 4/2), I won't hold my breath for Delta's SEA-PHL.
 
msycajun
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:17 am

There are some rumors on the MSY thread that DL is planning an expansion there. I wonder if we'll hear of a SEA-MSY flight being added soon? We have to be pretty high up on the list of biggest markets not served by DL from SEA.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:21 am

compensateme wrote:
As discussed previously, OAL's reduction on SEA/ORD opened up the window of opportunity.

Cubsrule wrote:
11725Flyer wrote:
Many of us speculated this would happen when DL got more gates at ORD. Looks like their corporate clients couldn't wait that long.


. . . or the gate issues are illusory.


:checkmark: Many of us have long debunked this; it's unfortunate that the person who originally made this assertion has the credibility he does -- being an intern in a menial position four years ago hardly makes you an expert on everything DL.

Alright since the mods don't wanna do their job and you want to be some grown man creeping and apparently trying to stalk another man....

I'm done with you. You can reply, make stupid comments, quote, call me out and lie about me all you want to. Welcome to my ignore list, first person ever.
Oh and you haven't debunked anything. All I have said is DL doesn't have the space in ORD for all the adds it would like at times they would like. Any idiot who can do math can figure it out. i could run around posting all the crap you haven't even been close to on but I have a life. I think you need to find a hobby or something to do with yourself. Or don't. I could care less.
Newbiepilot wrote:

I think this is for O/D. Chicago was the biggest market from Seattle that DL did not serve. Alaska, American, United and Southwest all are in the market which is why DL is probably starting small with A319s. It is needed now that the AS partnership is ending.

ORD and DFW are the two largest markets DL isn't in from SEA. I imagine DFW isn't going to be far behind but might wait for the CS.
rwsea wrote:

Wouldn't seem to make much sense to fly ORD-SEA-HKG when there are nonstop flights on CX and UA. Same goes for PVG, PEK, and other Asian cities served from SEA.

At least anyone who is high enough yielding to make it work. Maybe some hardcore FFs in CHI but that and low yielding stuff is about it.

Of course right now DL is having a hard time getting anyone high yielding to fly to HKG, but it seems like they are trying to build something. I fully expect DTW-HKG to come back with the A350.

and of course PEK/PVG/ICN/NRT are all better via DTW.

ASFlyer wrote:

This isn't about Asia any more than adding JNU, SIT or KTN were. This is purely to your second point - DL needs to add ORD to be relevant in SEA. They're still missing a few other important cities from SEA but ORD was inevitable.

exactly. Its all about building the hub. DL has pretty much added everything that will really feed Asia from SEA. Outside of some smaller places like ABQ, OAK, RNO and more California flying, DL pretty much has its Asia connections covered.

The other stuff is about building up a corporate/HVC following in SEA.
ITB wrote:
Adding SEA-ORD to the network is prudent because Frequent Flyers value direct flights, and as DL builds its Frequent Flyer base in Seattle, each additional city-pair will be seen as a plus.

As for Delta's Asian network, it's taken a significant hit with the dropping of BKK and TPE. Moreover, both MNL and SIN seem to be twisting in the wind as the process to dehub NRT continues. If DL really wants to maintain a powerhouse Asian network to serve its business-class customers, a way must be found to ensure those four mega cities remain on, and return to, the route map.

TPE will be back at some point. I can't see a way that it isn't.

but BKK? UA is the powerhouse US carrier to Asia and doesn't fly to BKK. They codeshare and I'm pretty sure DL codeshares on MU and KE to BKK.
hiflyeras wrote:
Next we'll probably hear about DL offering a free meal SEA-ORD...it was no coincidence that they were pretty much all AS/VX routes previously announced as getting one.

Move on already. Its most of the longest routes in the system that are getting meals in Y.
ckfred wrote:
How many more flights can DL add at ORD? When DL and NW merged, the issue was taht DL lacked enough gate space on L to take on the NW flights to its hubs. The NW gates on E weren't sufficient to accept all DL flights to its hubs. I know that US shifted its flying to Terminal 3, after US and AA started combining operations, but the US gates were subleased from UA, IIRC.

My understanding is the US gates are leased to DL (via NW) and subleased to US who subleased them to UA as part of AA getting the 4 gates in T6 at LAX.

As far as what can they add? operations are pretty tight a peak times. They flex up and down on some frequency to DTW/MSP and ATL but I wouldn't expect much more out of ORD.

n7371f wrote:
Folks...DL has major contracts with Seattle's major companies. ORD is a gaping omission on their route map from out here that was a hinderance to their corporate contracts. It's more about that, and the ever-increasing intra-NW/region connections via SEA that make the route work - than it is about Asia.

simple as this.

Prost wrote:
I doubt AS has lost any corporate contracts to DL. My guess is the corporations signed additional contracts with DL, not replacement contracts.

Exactly. A lot of corporations have multiple options in contracting.

ScottB wrote:
globalcabotage wrote:
This is for O&D connecting the 3rd largest metro area in the US with the growing SEA hub.


This is what it's about, not connections over SEA. Chicago is the fifth-largest O&D market from Seattle and it is currently the largest market from SEA without non-stop service on DL. With the end of the DL-AS agreement coming in May, DL needs to be in the top markets from SEA to be relevant to high-value customers in the Seattle area. WAS, DFW/DAL, IAH/HOU, MCO, MIA/FLL, PHL, and STL are the remaining top 30 SEA markets without DL non-stop service.

pretty sure DL has a MCO flight and a very seasonal FLL flight.
I really appreciate you always having my back and I hope you are watching over me. Hopefully one day I can be half the mechanic you were brother. Rest in peace and smooth tailwinds JL. Oh and screw Jane Fonda!
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:07 am

Cubsrule wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Overthecascades wrote:

ORD SEA HKG layover in Seattle is 5 hours.


And there are plenty of folks that would take the 5 hour layover just to avoid the disaster that is UA and AA at ORD. Plus, if the price is right, DL will get folks to connect through SEA as opposed to non-stops on AA/UA out of ORD. You are more likely to get delayed on a AA and a UA flight than on a DL flight.


Who are those "plenty of folks?" Certainly not anyone whose time is at all valuable.

ORD has its issues no doubt, but on-time performance, especially of widebody international flights of the sort relevant here, is no longer one of them.


Well, and it would have to be a pretty sizable delay ex-ORD on UA or AA nonstop to Asia to make laying over in SEA and risking delays on not one but TWO different flights be worth it. Beyond price, doesn't sound that appealing to me at all.
-Dave
 
jplatts
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:17 am

Aeromexico, Air France, Alitalia, and KLM operate international flights out of Chicago O'Hare, and the Delta nonstops between SEA and ORD give Seattle-area customers access to international flights operated by Delta's codeshare partners to Europe and Mexico out of Chicago O'Hare.
 
n7371f
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:45 am

Don't forget DL is getting additional gates at SeaTac for the summer. The process has already started on the B Concourse. One additional jet bridge is already on site with another one being installed in weeks. Service should be ready in two months.
 
keitherson
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:53 am

Why the hell does every thread pertaining to DL attract the anti-DL trolls, and why are the mods never doing anything about it? The fact that it's gone to personal attacks and A.neters stalking other posters that have worked or support DL is kind of disgusting.
 
n7371f
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:01 am

hiflyeras wrote:
Next we'll probably hear about DL offering a free meal SEA-ORD...it was no coincidence that they were pretty much all AS/VX routes previously announced as getting one.


Huh? The DL move on transcons is aimed at AA & UA. The Big 3 airlines compete for massive corporate contracts and this is a move by DL to one-up the others - and also JetBlue Whether it adds up or not, the marketplace will show. VX/AS is a second-tier on transcons and not on the radar for DL. Now JetBlue, that's different.

Plus all the internal thinking at the Big 3 is AS will sabotage the Virgin product, removing the fancy first class service & replace it with AS' substandard product. We'll find out in about a week.
 
rwsea
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:19 am

jplatts wrote:
Aeromexico, Air France, Alitalia, and KLM operate international flights out of Chicago O'Hare, and the Delta nonstops between SEA and ORD give Seattle-area customers access to international flights operated by Delta's codeshare partners to Europe and Mexico out of Chicago O'Hare.


Seattle has twice daily service to AMS and daily service to CDG on DL metal already. Why would anyone connect to AM at ORD when there are far better options (LAX being the best and most obvious)? I can concede that connections to Alitalia might make sense, although as a SEA based pax I would much rather connect to AI at AMS, CDG, or LHR than at ORD (getting to T5 and reclearing security is a major pain).
 
ASFlyer
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:27 am

n7371f wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
Next we'll probably hear about DL offering a free meal SEA-ORD...it was no coincidence that they were pretty much all AS/VX routes previously announced as getting one.


Huh? The DL move on transcons is aimed at AA & UA. The Big 3 airlines compete for massive corporate contracts and this is a move by DL to one-up the others - and also JetBlue Whether it adds up or not, the marketplace will show. VX/AS is a second-tier on transcons and not on the radar for DL. Now JetBlue, that's different.

Plus all the internal thinking at the Big 3 is AS will sabotage the Virgin product, removing the fancy first class service & replace it with AS' substandard product. We'll find out in about a week.


So how does that explain the free meals on SEA-MCO, SEA-FLL, SEA-RDU or SEA-BOS? Reference this article from USA Today, and please take note of the last paragraph, which says:

"Also likely not a coincidence, the other 10 routes on which Delta is bringing back free meals are all routes where it flies head-to-head with Alaska Airlines."

article here:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/fl ... /97997860/
Last edited by ASFlyer on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
keitherson
Posts: 227
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:31 am

rwsea wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Aeromexico, Air France, Alitalia, and KLM operate international flights out of Chicago O'Hare, and the Delta nonstops between SEA and ORD give Seattle-area customers access to international flights operated by Delta's codeshare partners to Europe and Mexico out of Chicago O'Hare.


Seattle has twice daily service to AMS and daily service to CDG on DL metal already. Why would anyone connect to AM at ORD when there are far better options (LAX being the best and most obvious)? I can concede that connections to Alitalia might make sense, although as a SEA based pax I would much rather connect to AI at AMS, CDG, or LHR than at ORD (getting to T5 and reclearing security is a major pain).

Because people will connect if the fares are cheap enough. And a stronger network is key to maintaining profitability by distributing loads and managing fares. People will fly ORD-DOH-SYD if the fares are cheap enough. And people do!
 
ASFlyer
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:37 am

keitherson wrote:
rwsea wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Aeromexico, Air France, Alitalia, and KLM operate international flights out of Chicago O'Hare, and the Delta nonstops between SEA and ORD give Seattle-area customers access to international flights operated by Delta's codeshare partners to Europe and Mexico out of Chicago O'Hare.


Seattle has twice daily service to AMS and daily service to CDG on DL metal already. Why would anyone connect to AM at ORD when there are far better options (LAX being the best and most obvious)? I can concede that connections to Alitalia might make sense, although as a SEA based pax I would much rather connect to AI at AMS, CDG, or LHR than at ORD (getting to T5 and reclearing security is a major pain).

Because people will connect if the fares are cheap enough. And a stronger network is key to maintaining profitability by distributing loads and managing fares. People will fly ORD-DOH-SYD if the fares are cheap enough. And people do!


Many people here think that DL is chasing HVC's (high value customers) and not the bargain chasers. ORD offers some connecting opportunities but I doubt that was a big consideration for DL in adding the route. ORD-DOH-SYD is a perfect example of why the US3 are so against the ME3. States subsidized carriers are able to charge bargain basement fares because they don't care about making money. DL can't compete with that - at least not in a meaningful way. The ME3 will undercut them every time - and still continue to operate. I think DL added SEA-ORD purely based on the O&D.
 
rwsea
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Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:49 am

keitherson wrote:
rwsea wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Aeromexico, Air France, Alitalia, and KLM operate international flights out of Chicago O'Hare, and the Delta nonstops between SEA and ORD give Seattle-area customers access to international flights operated by Delta's codeshare partners to Europe and Mexico out of Chicago O'Hare.


Seattle has twice daily service to AMS and daily service to CDG on DL metal already. Why would anyone connect to AM at ORD when there are far better options (LAX being the best and most obvious)? I can concede that connections to Alitalia might make sense, although as a SEA based pax I would much rather connect to AI at AMS, CDG, or LHR than at ORD (getting to T5 and reclearing security is a major pain).

Because people will connect if the fares are cheap enough. And a stronger network is key to maintaining profitability by distributing loads and managing fares. People will fly ORD-DOH-SYD if the fares are cheap enough. And people do!


DL isn't in the business of adding flights so that they can offer rock bottom fares and chase the most price sensitive of consumers...
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 6599
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:51 am

n7371f wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
Next we'll probably hear about DL offering a free meal SEA-ORD...it was no coincidence that they were pretty much all AS/VX routes previously announced as getting one.


Huh? The DL move on transcons is aimed at AA & UA. The Big 3 airlines compete for massive corporate contracts and this is a move by DL to one-up the others - and also JetBlue Whether it adds up or not, the marketplace will show. VX/AS is a second-tier on transcons and not on the radar for DL. Now JetBlue, that's different.

Plus all the internal thinking at the Big 3 is AS will sabotage the Virgin product, removing the fancy first class service & replace it with AS' substandard product. We'll find out in about a week.


Having never flown either in first, how is VX's First Class "fancy" and AS's "substandard"? I know AS was rolling out additional pitch and some other amenities, but perhaps they are still substandard to what UA/AA/DL do in domestic F.
-Dave
 
jumbojet
Posts: 1568
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:44 am

Cubsrule wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Overthecascades wrote:

ORD SEA HKG layover in Seattle is 5 hours.


And there are plenty of folks that would take the 5 hour layover just to avoid the disaster that is UA and AA at ORD. Plus, if the price is right, DL will get folks to connect through SEA as opposed to non-stops on AA/UA out of ORD. You are more likely to get delayed on a AA and a UA flight than on a DL flight.


Who are those "plenty of folks?" Certainly not anyone whose time is at all valuable.

ORD has its issues no doubt, but on-time performance, especially of widebody international flights of the sort relevant here, is no longer one of them.


Sure, AA and UA have new planes, UA even has Polaris now but the one thing they cant change are the complaints against how lousy the service is. People might not want to spend 5 hours at SEA but people also don't want to get treated like crap on their AA and UA flights. However, this is more about point to point service than it is feeding the TPAC flights. They aren't competing against AA and UA long haul, that is just ridiculous to think. The flights will undoubtedly be full. I don't think you will see much of a rebuttal from UA/AA and to a much lesser extent, regional Alaska Airlines.
 
rockyracoon
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:58 am

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:16 am

Wouldn't most DL pax be routed ORD-ICN-xxx on KE??
Airports: CVG PIT MWO PHL PIT PHX ORD DCA MIA TPA MCO ATL DTW DFW SJC LAX DEN SLC LAS HNL LIH OGG YVR MUC ICN NRT PVG SHA SZX MNL PPS CRK BKK DMK KBV EOH MDE CLO CTG SMR BOG ACD MEX CUN MID
 
Sightseer
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:33 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
So how does that explain the free meals on SEA-MCO, SEA-FLL, SEA-RDU or SEA-BOS? Reference this article from USA Today, and please take note of the last paragraph, which says:

"Also likely not a coincidence, the other 10 routes on which Delta is bringing back free meals are all routes where it flies head-to-head with Alaska Airlines."

article here:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/fl ... /97997860/


That is just a function of SEA's geography and the VX purchase. The shortest route that's getting meals is LAX-DCA; all of the SEA routes are longer. And, as a result of VX's SFO and LAX transcons they now compete with AS on far more routes than they did previously.
 
phluser
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:49 pm

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:34 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Given that AA only operates once a day weekdays (at least the week of 4/2), I won't hold my breath for Delta's SEA-PHL.


AA has more service in the summer but it's tourism that helps. Perhaps DL could add a daily flight and the outcome is it operates a daily flight while AA doesn't for the rest of the year. Of course, AS operates the route as well but seasonally ran it as a red-eye. AS might need the aircraft for some SFO, SJC, SAN or other route as it diversifies more away from SEA.

In the short term, AA will be interested in defending SEA-ORD, likely increasing service on it, and steering more NE connections through ORD likely than PHL. It has announced 0 new routes at PHL. DL also operates PHL-SLC year round while AA is sometimes missing in action, so that goes to show to some extent, that AA won't fight all battles defending PHL.
 
ckfred
Posts: 4846
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:56 pm

[quote="jumbojet"

And there are plenty of folks that would take the 5 hour layover just to avoid the disaster that is UA and AA at ORD. Plus, if the price is right, DL will get folks to connect through SEA as opposed to non-stops on AA/UA out of ORD. You are more likely to get delayed on a AA and a UA flight than on a DL flight.[/quote]

The last time my wife flew DL, which was ORD-ATL, the flight was an hour late. The inbound flight from ATL was about 1:!0 late, and they made up 10 minutes on the turnaround. On the other hand, her return on AA was early out of the gate at ATL and even earlier into ORD.

The problem with DL at SEA is that their operations are spread out on A, B, and the South satellite. All you need is a late arrival from Asia, congestion at customs and immigration, and viola. You have to hustle to get to a flight leaving out of A or B.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 507
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:07 pm

ckfred wrote:
[quote="jumbojet"

And there are plenty of folks that would take the 5 hour layover just to avoid the disaster that is UA and AA at ORD. Plus, if the price is right, DL will get folks to connect through SEA as opposed to non-stops on AA/UA out of ORD. You are more likely to get delayed on a AA and a UA flight than on a DL flight.


The last time my wife flew DL, which was ORD-ATL, the flight was an hour late. The inbound flight from ATL was about 1:!0 late, and they made up 10 minutes on the turnaround. On the other hand, her return on AA was early out of the gate at ATL and even earlier into ORD.

The problem with DL at SEA is that their operations are spread out on A, B, and the South satellite. All you need is a late arrival from Asia, congestion at customs and immigration, and viola. You have to hustle to get to a flight leaving out of A or B.[/quote]

Exactly, DL or AA/UA, you still have to deal with ORD.
 
klm617
Posts: 915
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:34 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
ckfred wrote:
[quote="jumbojet"

And there are plenty of folks that would take the 5 hour layover just to avoid the disaster that is UA and AA at ORD. Plus, if the price is right, DL will get folks to connect through SEA as opposed to non-stops on AA/UA out of ORD. You are more likely to get delayed on a AA and a UA flight than on a DL flight.


The last time my wife flew DL, which was ORD-ATL, the flight was an hour late. The inbound flight from ATL was about 1:!0 late, and they made up 10 minutes on the turnaround. On the other hand, her return on AA was early out of the gate at ATL and even earlier into ORD.

The problem with DL at SEA is that their operations are spread out on A, B, and the South satellite. All you need is a late arrival from Asia, congestion at customs and immigration, and viola. You have to hustle to get to a flight leaving out of A or B.


Exactly, DL or AA/UA, you still have to deal with ORD.[/quote]

There was a time a while back where 50% of my Delta flights were an hour late but I have to admit that has improved but I still avoid Atlanta at all costs because I always find myself sprinting through the airport to make my connection because Delta has a bad habit of closing the doors 5 minute before scheduled departure time and they won't hesitate to leave you there even if it their fault you missed your connection by a couple of minutes.
t
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:16 am

Sightseer wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
So how does that explain the free meals on SEA-MCO, SEA-FLL, SEA-RDU or SEA-BOS? Reference this article from USA Today, and please take note of the last paragraph, which says:

"Also likely not a coincidence, the other 10 routes on which Delta is bringing back free meals are all routes where it flies head-to-head with Alaska Airlines."

article here:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/fl ... /97997860/


That is just a function of SEA's geography and the VX purchase. The shortest route that's getting meals is LAX-DCA; all of the SEA routes are longer. And, as a result of VX's SFO and LAX transcons they now compete with AS on far more routes than they did previously.


Perhaps, but I don't see them adding the meals on routes like LAX-RDU or LAX-MIA. There are others similar in length where meals were not added. In the article linked, DL Spokesperson, Alison Husband says that the meals were added in "strategic markets". What strategy would there be to add meals in primarily leisure markets like SEA-MCO or SEA-FLL, or markets where there is only one other competitor, offering one flight a day like SEA-RDU? Size it up any way you want to but even the reporter at USA Today was able to read between the lines.
 
globalcabotage
Topic Author
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:42 pm

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:29 am

If DTW is so great, why are the DTW fanboys so terrified of 380 seats a day on DL from ORD-SEA? Maybe DTW isn't as important as you think it is!
 
IPFreely
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:10 am

ckfred wrote:
And there are plenty of folks that would take the 5 hour layover just to avoid the disaster that is UA and AA at ORD..


Do you have any evidence to justify this? Or to quantify "plenty"? It sounds like fanboy nonsense.

ckfred wrote:
Plus, if the price is right, DL will get folks to connect through SEA as opposed to non-stops on AA/UA out of ORD. You are more likely to get delayed on a AA and a UA flight than on a DL flight.


Not true. If you have to take a DL connection flight to get to DTW or SEA for a DL mainline international flight, you are taking a huge risk of not making it.
 
Sightseer
Posts: 634
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:28 am

ASFlyer wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
So how does that explain the free meals on SEA-MCO, SEA-FLL, SEA-RDU or SEA-BOS? Reference this article from USA Today, and please take note of the last paragraph, which says:

"Also likely not a coincidence, the other 10 routes on which Delta is bringing back free meals are all routes where it flies head-to-head with Alaska Airlines."

article here:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/fl ... /97997860/


That is just a function of SEA's geography and the VX purchase. The shortest route that's getting meals is LAX-DCA; all of the SEA routes are longer. And, as a result of VX's SFO and LAX transcons they now compete with AS on far more routes than they did previously.


Perhaps, but I don't see them adding the meals on routes like LAX-RDU or LAX-MIA. There are others similar in length where meals were not added. In the article linked, DL Spokesperson, Alison Husband says that the meals were added in "strategic markets". What strategy would there be to add meals in primarily leisure markets like SEA-MCO or SEA-FLL, or markets where there is only one other competitor, offering one flight a day like SEA-RDU? Size it up any way you want to but even the reporter at USA Today was able to read between the lines.


I remain unconvinced there are any lines to read between. DL is no stranger to distance-based cutoffs for service differentiation, such as the 750-mile limitation for single-class RJs. And off the top of my head, I cannot think of any transcons longer than DCA-LAX that are not receiving free meals. All of these routes, by the way, happen to leave from JFK, BOS, or SEA (besides DCA-LAX), which happen to be located in the far corners of the country.

When we see these meals on shorter routes like this new SEA-ORD, I will be more inclined to agree. But so far, the only link I see between all these routes is their length.

Edit: turns out MIA-LAX is actually 31 miles longer than DCA-LAX, so one would expect it to be included also.
Last edited by Sightseer on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 3904
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:40 am

Here's a question for you all. Will DL continue to support SEA has a hub when the airline industry goes south and the airlines like DL start to bleed red ink? My thought is that DL will be history in SEA as a hub.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:12 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
Here's a question for you all. Will DL continue to support SEA has a hub when the airline industry goes south and the airlines like DL start to bleed red ink? My thought is that DL will be history in SEA as a hub.


If you want to know that answer, just look at how DL has supported other hubs during down cycles in the airline industry. These would be the DL hubs at Chicago O'Hare, Dallas-Ft Worth, Memphis, Orlando, and Portland.
 
jfern022
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: DL adding SEA-ORD

Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:28 am

IPFreely wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Here's a question for you all. Will DL continue to support SEA has a hub when the airline industry goes south and the airlines like DL start to bleed red ink? My thought is that DL will be history in SEA as a hub.


If you want to know that answer, just look at how DL has supported other hubs during down cycles in the airline industry. These would be the DL hubs at Chicago O'Hare, Dallas-Ft Worth, Memphis, Orlando, and Portland.


Last time I checked, orlando is a major city for delta with 60+ a day I think.

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