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Should be interesting. Is LAX next from ORD.

As expected, and long speculated - an obvious, logical add linking the third largest population center in the U.S. with Delta's Asian gateway at SEA. The schedules look good - well-timed for both O&D and two-way connections between ORD and Asia.

BOS/RDU-ORD should be next.... wonder how long?

Many of us speculated this would happen when DL got more gates at ORD. Looks like their corporate clients couldn't wait that long.

11725Flyer wrote:

Many of us speculated this would happen when DL got more gates at ORD. Looks like their corporate clients couldn't wait that long.

. . . or the gate issues are illusory.

DL 2981 SEA 740 - 1345 ORD 319
DL 2989 SEA 1115 - 1720 ORD 319
DL 2983 SEA 1700 - 2305 ORD 319

DL 2979 ORD 730 - 1005 SEA 319
DL 2981 ORD 1420 - 1655 SEA 319
DL 2989 ORD 1755 - 2030 SEA 319

Hmm....guess it makes sense, if DL is determined to continue the evolution of SEA as it's anchor TPAC gateway. The big 3 are all on busy routes like ORD-LGA-ORD, so this may work. My concern is that ORD POS to Asia will largely be captured by UA/AA and their alliance partners so opportunities may be limited there for ORD-ASIA market share.

commavia wrote:

As expected, and long speculated - an obvious, logical add linking the third largest population center in the U.S. with Delta's Asian gateway at SEA. The schedules look good - well-timed for both O&D and two-way connections between ORD and Asia.

I get the O&D, but not the Asian connections. Aside from HKG what would SEA offer that DTW doesn't? Wouldn't it be much more convenient for passengers to take a quick hop to DTW then catch their flight to Asia?

Cointrin330 wrote:

Hmm....guess it makes sense, if DL is determined to continue the evolution of SEA as it's anchor TPAC gateway. The big 3 are all on busy routes like ORD-LGA-ORD, so this may work. My concern is that ORD POS to Asia will largely be captured by UA/AA and their alliance partners so opportunities may be limited there for ORD-ASIA market share.

Just another move as they continue to divert more traffic away from connecting at the Detroit hub when traveling to Asia in favor of flowing it over Seattle. It's a shame they have to take traffic away from one hub to make another work.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

commavia wrote:

As expected, and long speculated - an obvious, logical add linking the third largest population center in the U.S. with Delta's Asian gateway at SEA. The schedules look good - well-timed for both O&D and two-way connections between ORD and Asia.

I get the O&D, but not the Asian connections. Aside from HKG what would SEA offer that DTW doesn't? Wouldn't it be much more convenient for passengers to take a quick hop to DTW then catch their flight to Asia?

So what about passengers west of DTW? That's why they built the Pacific gateway AT SEA isn't it? To funnel Asia bound passengers TO their most Western gateway?? That's what SFO is to UAL and LAX is to AMR.. and What SEA is to DAL.

klm617 wrote:

Just another move as they continue to divert more traffic away from connecting at the Detroit hub when traveling to Asia in favor of flowing it over Seattle. It's a shame they have to take traffic away from one hub to make another work.

True, but this is just 3 flights a day with no feed at one end, limited feed at the other end, and poorly timed for connections to China. How much effect will it have on Detroit?

I think the next couple of years are going to be even more interesting for DL in Seattle. With AS merging and right now focused on that, could present an opportunity for a lot more in Seattle of course limited by constraints of the airport.

Will be interesting to see what Scott Kirbys response will be...

I realize the DL Fan Boys are excited, but lets see what the response from UA and AA is. We all know they are not going to let those 'boys from the South' infringe on their territory. Plus when you have to take passengers from your 2 hubs to make it work on a 3rd...

Can't really see this being about Asia, gotta be more for strengthening their corporate offers in the PacNW.

Would imagine LAX would be up to finally getting a DL cnnx to ORD as well, perhaps after their terminal move in 2months?

It's another expected poke at AS...but at AA and UA as well. That's all those two need with their own pissing match in ORD. I was pretty surprised how few mainline flights they both operate between ORD-ATL...maybe that'll change.

hiflyeras wrote:

It's another expected poke at AS...but at AA and UA as well. That's all those two need with their own pissing match in ORD. I was pretty surprised how few mainline flights they both operate between ORD-ATL...maybe that'll change.

I don't see the "poke" at UA and AA. It's a flight from a large outstation to a hub, much like AA starting ATL-LAX or UA starting DTW-SFO. The only difference is that DL has many hubs in smaller, weaker O&D markets, so its hubs are not as interesting to other carriers.

I don't think what they do is to take passengers from your 2 hubs to make it work on a 3rd... this is a logical add to their network and it's more about the seattle hub than it is about ORD.

The ORD- hkg connection seems just ok though. West bound you'll have 5 hours which is a bit long.

I'm surprised with the 319. Looking at the summer schedule out of SEA the 319 is a mainline odd-ball.

727200 wrote:

I realize the DL Fan Boys are excited, but lets see what the response from UA and AA is. We all know they are not going to let those 'boys from the South' infringe on their territory. Plus when you have to take passengers from your 2 hubs to make it work on a 3rd...

Y'all know where AA is based, right?

727200 wrote:

I realize the DL Fan Boys are excited, but lets see what the response from UA and AA is. We all know they are not going to let those 'boys from the South' infringe on their territory.

Nobody has overwhelming capacity or frequency on ORD-SEA. On the date DL starts in June ITA Matrix is showing:

AS 4x 737

AA 5x 737

Remember, AA and AS can't codeshare on that route so they're relying on their own frequencies.

UA 4x 737, 1x 320, 1x 757

WN has 4x MDW-SEA.

klm617 wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

Hmm....guess it makes sense, if DL is determined to continue the evolution of SEA as it's anchor TPAC gateway. The big 3 are all on busy routes like ORD-LGA-ORD, so this may work. My concern is that ORD POS to Asia will largely be captured by UA/AA and their alliance partners so opportunities may be limited there for ORD-ASIA market share.

Just another move as they continue to divert more traffic away from connecting at the Detroit hub when traveling to Asia in favor of flowing it over Seattle. It's a shame they have to take traffic away from one hub to make another work.

Why is that every time a DL route opens up at SEA, people think it's a slap in the face at DTW. Is DTW more convenient for ORD travelers to connect to Asia, sure. Is it possible that flights from DTW to Asia are full a lot...what do you think? The ORD-SEA route not only provides an alternative connection to Asia, but to other PNW and western destinations as well, including ANC and FAI.

Important addition from DL. Now its BOS,LAX and RDU's turn. And I really dont think this flight is about funneling ORD pax to Asia, Its about O&D and expand their domination in SEA. ORD is Already well covered to Asia from AA and UA.

alexinwa wrote:

I'm surprised with the 319. Looking at the summer schedule out of SEA the 319 is a mainline odd-ball.

Actually, it's a good move on DL's part to start the service with the A319. These come equipped with AVOD IFE, where the A320s do not, nor do the M90s. If the demand is there, DL will upgauge these to 73Hs. DL is very good at adjusting equipment according to demand.

laca773 wrote:

alexinwa wrote:

I'm surprised with the 319. Looking at the summer schedule out of SEA the 319 is a mainline odd-ball.

Actually, it's a good move on DL's part to start the service with the A319. These come equipped with AVOD IFE, where the A320s do not, nor do the M90s. If the demand is there, DL will upgauge these to 73Hs. DL is very good at adjusting equipment according to demand.

Yes...I agree. DL has been pretty good at gauging what airplanes are appropriate for routes...look at many of the western routes. Also, DL has been employing more A319 equipment to SEA like SEA-AUS and SEA-RDU (I think that's right), along with some SEA-LAX flights.

As discussed previously, OAL's reduction on SEA/ORD opened up the window of opportunity.

Cubsrule wrote:

11725Flyer wrote:

Many of us speculated this would happen when DL got more gates at ORD. Looks like their corporate clients couldn't wait that long.

. . . or the gate issues are illusory.

Many of us have long debunked this; it's unfortunate that the person who originally made this assertion has the credibility he does -- being an intern in a menial position four years ago hardly makes you an expert on everything DL.

wedgetail737 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

Hmm....guess it makes sense, if DL is determined to continue the evolution of SEA as it's anchor TPAC gateway. The big 3 are all on busy routes like ORD-LGA-ORD, so this may work. My concern is that ORD POS to Asia will largely be captured by UA/AA and their alliance partners so opportunities may be limited there for ORD-ASIA market share.

Just another move as they continue to divert more traffic away from connecting at the Detroit hub when traveling to Asia in favor of flowing it over Seattle. It's a shame they have to take traffic away from one hub to make another work.

Why is that every time a DL route opens up at SEA, people think it's a slap in the face at DTW. Is DTW more convenient for ORD travelers to connect to Asia, sure. Is it possible that flights from DTW to Asia are full a lot...what do you think? The ORD-SEA route not only provides an alternative connection to Asia, but to other PNW and western destinations as well, including ANC and FAI.

Because that's exactly what it is. If planes are full in the DTW Asia market add capacity there to handle the increased traffic like they have been doing ever quarter at the other hubs except for Detroit. Flying from all their other hubs to Amsterdam has increased while capacity in Detroit has decreased in the Amsterdam market. Let's all try to see it for what it really is.

klm617 wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Just another move as they continue to divert more traffic away from connecting at the Detroit hub when traveling to Asia in favor of flowing it over Seattle. It's a shame they have to take traffic away from one hub to make another work.

Why is that every time a DL route opens up at SEA, people think it's a slap in the face at DTW. Is DTW more convenient for ORD travelers to connect to Asia, sure. Is it possible that flights from DTW to Asia are full a lot...what do you think? The ORD-SEA route not only provides an alternative connection to Asia, but to other PNW and western destinations as well, including ANC and FAI.

Because that's exactly what it is. If planes are full in the DTW Asia market add capacity there to handle the increased traffic like they have been doing ever quarter at the other hubs except for Detroit. Flying from all their other hubs to Amsterdam has increased while capacity in Detroit has decreased in the Amsterdam market. Let's all try to see it for what it really is.

Except we all know that doesn't necessarily make sense. More nonstop markets means more opportunities to catch the highest yielding traffic, whereas the lower yielding connectors can be pushed around to various connecting points. If DTW-Asia needs more local O&D seats, then it can make sense to simply discourage DTW connections compared to other hubs rather than increasing capacity.

The introduction of SEA-Asia flights, besides de-emphasizing NRT, gave DL a new market to capture O&D plus a new legitimate presence in the general US West-Asia market. If a market like DTW-ICN needs more local seats in the future, it may similarly make sense to add MSP-ICN (hypothetical) and have a new nonstop market over which to offer connections while opening up more DTW-ICN seats for local traffic. Those moves are not a slight at DTW, they're sensible business.

All that said, I don't think SEA-ORD has anything to do with collecting Chicago-Asia traffic. I think DL's plan was always to be big enough in SEA to make its combination of international and domestic flights more desirable to high value customers than AS. I don't think they expected AS to respond by adding more and more Eastern/Central Time Zone destinations, helping many flyers choose to stay primarily loyal to AS+partners. DL needs ORD service to continue fighting for the SEA point-of-sale in general, which in turn should put more SEA-originating butts in Asia-bound seats.

klm617 wrote:

Because that's exactly what it is. If planes are full in the DTW Asia market add capacity there to handle the increased traffic like they have been doing ever quarter at the other hubs except for Detroit. Flying from all their other hubs to Amsterdam has increased while capacity in Detroit has decreased in the Amsterdam market. Let's all try to see it for what it really is.

The amount of Asian traffic these three flights take away from DTW will be close to zero. For travellers who use ORD as their home base, how many are going to fly to Asia on DL to begin with? Despite the fanboys claims, DL has very few loyal travellers in Chicago. For the few that do exist, if they're going to China they will connect in DTW because the ORD-SEA flights are not timed well for connections to China. But for the most part, Chicago-Asia travellers will opt for non-stop travel on UA, AA, or any of the Asian carriers. All DL might get are a few low yield passengers willing to take multiple long layovers for a lower fare.

These routes might (or might not) capture some business traffic between SEA and ORD. But they're competing with UA, AA, AS, and WN (to MDW), all of whom have better feed and frequency/capacity than DL. This will not affect DTW at all.

IPFreely wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Because that's exactly what it is. If planes are full in the DTW Asia market add capacity there to handle the increased traffic like they have been doing ever quarter at the other hubs except for Detroit. Flying from all their other hubs to Amsterdam has increased while capacity in Detroit has decreased in the Amsterdam market. Let's all try to see it for what it really is.

The amount of Asian traffic these three flights take away from DTW will be close to zero. For travellers who use ORD as their home base, how many are going to fly to Asia on DL to begin with? Despite the fanboys claims, DL has very few loyal travellers in Chicago. For the few that do exist, if they're going to China they will connect in DTW because the ORD-SEA flights are not timed well for connections to China. But for the most part, Chicago-Asia travellers will opt for non-stop travel on UA, AA, or any of the Asian carriers. All DL might get are a few low yield passengers willing to take multiple long layovers for a lower fare.

NW was historically very strong in ORD-MNL (to the point that they had dedicated checkin desks for Manila at ORD). That's hardly traffic worth chasing, though. DL's added gateways and smaller, longer-range aircraft mean that it's no longer all about bulk.

I don't understand what's going on here? Is this thread to try to make DTWers feel better or talk about a business market from SEA. What am I missing? This is a business route. Serving the SEA market. I have 0 reason to see what this has to do with DTW. Does everything DL have to do with DTW? HINT HINT... no.. that would be and always will be ATL...

Back to the route at hand, this makes absolute sense from a business sense and think it's great. I see this working from the SEA based DL clients...

ERJ170 wrote:

I don't understand what's going on here? Is this thread to try to make DTWers feel better or talk about a business market from SEA. What am I missing? This is a business route. Serving the SEA market. I have 0 reason to see what this has to do with DTW. Does everything DL have to do with DTW? HINT HINT... no.. that would be and always will be ATL...

Back to the route at hand, this makes absolute sense from a business sense and think it's great. I see this working from the SEA based DL clients...

Exactly, it's one poster that is allowed to do this and frankly for me it's ruining this forum.

To the topic - it's a long time coming and necessary for Delta to be big in the Seattle market. Not sure I expected 3 daily to begin, though.

Maybe the reason klm617 is shooting it down is because every route XXX-DTW gets shot down, when I posted on this forum some time ago that DL would start DTW-SNA on the 319, I got constant negativity, oh that won't work, there not enough room at SNA, DL would make better use out of the slot to SEA, I've heard every excuse but guess what? They got SNA. That's one reason why this is becoming pathetic..

Long, LONG overdue route for DL. Timings work for some connections, but seem to work best for HKG. No surprise to me. DL simply isn't competitive on ORD-HKG. Now they have a semblance of it.

I know we can joke all what about the DTW angle. But there's no questioning that the SEA buildup has significantly dampered DTW and MSP operations to Asia. These additions won't be a help to them.

I'm also a little surprised that this is with 3x 319. I would have expected E175s or CRJ-900s like how they opened up LAX-DEN.

Much needed route for the network. Will be interesting to see how it plays out for them, as well as UA, AS, and AA.

727200 wrote:

I realize the DL Fan Boys are excited, but lets see what the response from UA and AA is. We all know they are not going to let those 'boys from the South' infringe on their territory. Plus when you have to take passengers from your 2 hubs to make it work on a 3rd...

DL NW has been a major carrier in the Pac Northwest for many years

strfyr51 wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

commavia wrote:

As expected, and long speculated - an obvious, logical add linking the third largest population center in the U.S. with Delta's Asian gateway at SEA. The schedules look good - well-timed for both O&D and two-way connections between ORD and Asia.

I get the O&D, but not the Asian connections. Aside from HKG what would SEA offer that DTW doesn't? Wouldn't it be much more convenient for passengers to take a quick hop to DTW then catch their flight to Asia?

So what about passengers west of DTW? That's why they built the Pacific gateway AT SEA isn't it? To funnel Asia bound passengers TO their most Western gateway?? That's what SFO is to UAL and LAX is to AMR.. and What SEA is to DAL.

You have to go way west of DTW for your argument to be effective. ORD is barely west of DTW. It's a 30-min flight backtrack vs. an almost 4-hour flight to SEA to connect to Asia. Much quicker to fly ORD-DTW-Asia than ORD-SEA-Asia. This would include cities like STL, MCI, MSP as well.

klm617 wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

Hmm....guess it makes sense, if DL is determined to continue the evolution of SEA as it's anchor TPAC gateway. The big 3 are all on busy routes like ORD-LGA-ORD, so this may work. My concern is that ORD POS to Asia will largely be captured by UA/AA and their alliance partners so opportunities may be limited there for ORD-ASIA market share.

Just another move as they continue to divert more traffic away from connecting at the Detroit hub when traveling to Asia in favor of flowing it over Seattle. It's a shame they have to take traffic away from one hub to make another work.

you or we won't know that until we see what the pricing is. If Sea IS DISCOUNTED over DTW then I might be able to see your thinking.

Well, if my math is correct, (and that can be debatable), with these new flights, Delta will have 163 flights this summer at Seattle.

The Delta press releases all last fall, and this winter have been saying Delta will have 160 flights in the summer of 2017 at Seattle. That was before these ORD flights were announced, so I am guessing with these three new additional flights, Delta will now have (160+3=163), 163 flights this summer.

As a point of reference, back in the summer of 2011, Delta had all of 38 flights at Seattle. Quite the buildup.

This is for O&D connecting the 3rd largest metro area in the US with the growing SEA hub.

I don't think many travelers in Chicago take DL to Asia given all of the flights (4x Daily NRT, 1X Daily HND, 3X Daily BJS, 3X Daily PVG, 2X Daily HKG, 2X Daily ICN, 1X Daily TPE).

I'm sure in the next couple of years LAX, BOS, and RDU will be added. This would make ORD a large spoke in the network.

globalcabotage wrote:

I'm sure in the next couple of years LAX, BOS, and RDU will be added. This would make ORD a large spoke in the network.

I just did a quick mapping out of the gate situation at ORD for Delta (I believe they have 8 gates and this summer will now have 59 daily flights out of ORD). That being said though, outside of the RONs, there's gate flexibility all throughout the day to add service in - multiple flights even. There are a couple of windows where 6 out of the 8 gates are in use, but that's it. Now that being said, ORD is ORD and has its fair share of weather, plus quite a few of those flights are going to places that are also known for summer weather (12 flights to ATL, 14 to LGA, 6 to JFK) that will inevitably have some delays.

globalcabotage wrote:

This is for O&D connecting the 3rd largest metro area in the US with the growing SEA hub.

I don't think many travelers in Chicago take DL to Asia given all of the flights (4x Daily NRT, 1X Daily HND, 3X Daily BJS, 3X Daily PVG, 2X Daily HKG, 2X Daily ICN, 1X Daily TPE).

I'm sure in the next couple of years LAX, BOS, and RDU will be added. This would make ORD a large spoke in the network.

I think this is for O/D. Chicago was the biggest market from Seattle that DL did not serve. Alaska, American, United and Southwest all are in the market which is why DL is probably starting small with A319s. It is needed now that the AS partnership is ending.

wedgetail737 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

Hmm....guess it makes sense, if DL is determined to continue the evolution of SEA as it's anchor TPAC gateway. The big 3 are all on busy routes like ORD-LGA-ORD, so this may work. My concern is that ORD POS to Asia will largely be captured by UA/AA and their alliance partners so opportunities may be limited there for ORD-ASIA market share.

Just another move as they continue to divert more traffic away from connecting at the Detroit hub when traveling to Asia in favor of flowing it over Seattle. It's a shame they have to take traffic away from one hub to make another work.

Why is that every time a DL route opens up at SEA, people think it's a slap in the face at DTW. Is DTW more convenient for ORD travelers to connect to Asia, sure. Is it possible that flights from DTW to Asia are full a lot...what do you think? The ORD-SEA route not only provides an alternative connection to Asia, but to other PNW and western destinations as well, including ANC and FAI.

"People" - at least, reasonable people - don't think it is a slap at DTW. There will always, however, be whining from someone who just can't see the forest for the trees.

And as an aside, you don't see anyone from Atlanta...or Los Angeles... or Minneapolis... or any other hub complaining that it is an attempt to divert traffic from them. They should have the same rights to complain... but they are sane about it...

ERJ170 wrote:

I don't understand what's going on here? Is this thread to try to make DTWers feel better or talk about a business market from SEA. What am I missing? This is a business route. Serving the SEA market. I have 0 reason to see what this has to do with DTW. Does everything DL have to do with DTW? HINT HINT... no.. that would be and always will be ATL... Back to the route at hand, this makes absolute sense from a business sense and think it's great. I see this working from the SEA based DL clients...

Let's face it; business is business. Airlines do not exist to soothe somebody's ego... or to cater to the whims of an irrational individual. You make 100% sense... to any reasonable person...

way back in the 70's possibly early 80's NW flew this route, I think even with DC10

Overthecascades wrote:

I don't think what they do is to take passengers from your 2 hubs to make it work on a 3rd... this is a logical add to their network and it's more about the seattle hub than it is about ORD.

The ORD- hkg connection seems just ok though. West bound you'll have 5 hours which is a bit long.

Wouldn't seem to make much sense to fly ORD-SEA-HKG when there are nonstop flights on CX and UA. Same goes for PVG, PEK, and other Asian cities served from SEA.

rwsea wrote:

Wouldn't seem to make much sense to fly ORD-SEA-HKG when there are nonstop flights on CX and UA. Same goes for PVG, PEK, and other Asian cities served from SEA.

Even if you're flying DL for some reason it would make no sense to fly ORD-SEA-PEK or ORD-SEA-PVG:
ORD-SEA-PEK would have a 6:55 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-PVG would have a 3:55 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-HKG would have a 3:06 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-ICN would have a 2:11 layover in SEA
I did not check but I'm pretty sure DL would offer better (faster) travel on ORD-DTW-PEK and ORD-DTW-PVG when considering the flight times.
But even this would only apply to low yield passengers willing to make multiple connections for a lower fare. As you pointed out, all others are going to fly ORD-Asia nonstop on UA, AA, or any of the Asian carriers.

This is not overly shocking. Delta wants seats to feed its Asian connections and ORD is a major origin of that traffic. Also Delta wants to serve all of the important business destinations for Frequent Flyers. No one can be too shocked at this, Delta is going all cards in on making Asia work. This is a minor investment to support that.

IPFreely wrote:

rwsea wrote:

Wouldn't seem to make much sense to fly ORD-SEA-HKG when there are nonstop flights on CX and UA. Same goes for PVG, PEK, and other Asian cities served from SEA.

Even if you're flying DL for some reason it would make no sense to fly ORD-SEA-PEK or ORD-SEA-PVG:
ORD-SEA-PEK would have a 6:55 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-PVG would have a 3:55 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-HKG would have a 3:06 layover in SEA
ORD-SEA-ICN would have a 2:11 layover in SEA
I did not check but I'm pretty sure DL would offer better (faster) travel on ORD-DTW-PEK and ORD-DTW-PVG when considering the flight times.
But even this would only apply to low yield passengers willing to make multiple connections for a lower fare. As you pointed out, all others are going to fly ORD-Asia nonstop on UA, AA, or any of the Asian carriers.

ORD SEA HKG layover in Seattle is 5 hours.