clrd4t8koff
Topic Author
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BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:38 pm

With MU just announcing PVG-IAH it got me wondering. The BOS-China market is booming and is now the largest source of tourists to Boston, surpassing the UK - https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/20 ... story.html

In a couple years it's expected that 500k Chinese tourists will be visiting BOS annually. With the market so large - why does BOS only have CX 4x weekly to HKG (which I realize is going daily in May) and HU 3x weekly to PVG and daily to PEK?

Isn't there room for one more Chinese carrier to PVG the other 4-days HU doesn't operate? Or what about BR or CI to TPE? The market seems ripe for the picking.
 
ScottB
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:19 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
In a couple years it's expected that 500k Chinese tourists will be visiting BOS annually. With the market so large - why does BOS only have CX 4x weekly to HKG (which I realize is going daily in May) and HU 3x weekly to PVG and daily to PEK?

Isn't there room for one more Chinese carrier to PVG the other 4-days HU doesn't operate? Or what about BR or CI to TPE? The market seems ripe for the picking.


Based on the yields in the market, I'm not sure there's really room for even one carrier to operate profitably. I can book a ticket right now about two weeks out for $550 round-trip on the HU non-stops to PEK. If I'm willing to connect, the price drops below $500 round-trip. Chinese tourists might fill a bunch of deeply-discounted seats to BOS, but the airline isn't going to make money that way.
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:53 pm

How about a flight to Guangzhou but I don't know this sort of market(china to Boston)
 
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chrisnh
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:58 pm

What additional capacity does the Boston-China market allow, per the agreement between the countries? Can ANYONE start flying if they wish?
 
Flighty
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:02 pm

ScottB wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
In a couple years it's expected that 500k Chinese tourists will be visiting BOS annually. With the market so large - why does BOS only have CX 4x weekly to HKG (which I realize is going daily in May) and HU 3x weekly to PVG and daily to PEK?

Isn't there room for one more Chinese carrier to PVG the other 4-days HU doesn't operate? Or what about BR or CI to TPE? The market seems ripe for the picking.


Based on the yields in the market, I'm not sure there's really room for even one carrier to operate profitably. I can book a ticket right now about two weeks out for $550 round-trip on the HU non-stops to PEK. If I'm willing to connect, the price drops below $500 round-trip. Chinese tourists might fill a bunch of deeply-discounted seats to BOS, but the airline isn't going to make money that way.


:checkmark:
It is no surprise that China is the leader in the market, given the subsidies involved.
 
bzcat
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:03 pm

BOS-China is not a "market" underserved or not... it is many different markets. PEK, PVG, and HKG are probably the only feasible markets and they are already served.

As to why PVG is not daily... I guess you'll have to ask HU what throwing twice as many seats on the route will do to the yield.

BR and CI doesn't have access to Chinese transit passengers so I'm not sure what relevance they have in this topic regarding China. But CI doesn't have the right plane (A350 may address this soon) and BR's strategy in North America is to go for the Star Hub for maximum UA feed to Southeast Asia. BR may try something different when they get their 787-9 but until then, they are just going to keep bulking up SFO/ORD/IAH, adding more frequencies.
 
airbazar
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:13 pm

ScottB wrote:
Based on the yields in the market, I'm not sure there's really room for even one carrier to operate profitably. I can book a ticket right now about two weeks out for $550 round-trip on the HU non-stops to PEK. If I'm willing to connect, the price drops below $500 round-trip. Chinese tourists might fill a bunch of deeply-discounted seats to BOS, but the airline isn't going to make money that way.

Which is interesting to say the least because Chinese tourists aren't cheap. They spend a lot more than any other visitor. If I was Boston, or any other major city for that matter, I would be subsidizing these flights by the bucket load and then recouping that money and then some, with their spending.
 
B752OS
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:15 pm

ScottB wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
In a couple years it's expected that 500k Chinese tourists will be visiting BOS annually. With the market so large - why does BOS only have CX 4x weekly to HKG (which I realize is going daily in May) and HU 3x weekly to PVG and daily to PEK?

Isn't there room for one more Chinese carrier to PVG the other 4-days HU doesn't operate? Or what about BR or CI to TPE? The market seems ripe for the picking.


Based on the yields in the market, I'm not sure there's really room for even one carrier to operate profitably. I can book a ticket right now about two weeks out for $550 round-trip on the HU non-stops to PEK. If I'm willing to connect, the price drops below $500 round-trip. Chinese tourists might fill a bunch of deeply-discounted seats to BOS, but the airline isn't going to make money that way.


Right now one can book a ticket on UA SFO-PEK round trip 2 weeks out for $486 round trip. Or ORD-PEK for $528 round trip 2 weeks out. Yes I know SFO/ORD-China is bigger than BOS-China. My question is how is UA making money offering fares that low?
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:18 pm

ScottB wrote:
Based on the yields in the market, I'm not sure there's really room for even one carrier to operate profitably. I can book a ticket right now about two weeks out for $550 round-trip on the HU non-stops to PEK. If I'm willing to connect, the price drops below $500 round-trip. Chinese tourists might fill a bunch of deeply-discounted seats to BOS, but the airline isn't going to make money that way.


Those same low yields go for IAH also, which just added its 3rd Chinese carrier. The IAH economy is also much weaker than BOS economy. So it appears yields obviously aren't holding Chinese carriers back from adding capacity if the traffic is there, which BOS apparently has.

So could another Chinese carrier start flights to either of PEK or PVG with HU already flying both (PVG only 3x/week)?
 
MAH4546
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:42 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
ScottB wrote:
Based on the yields in the market, I'm not sure there's really room for even one carrier to operate profitably. I can book a ticket right now about two weeks out for $550 round-trip on the HU non-stops to PEK. If I'm willing to connect, the price drops below $500 round-trip. Chinese tourists might fill a bunch of deeply-discounted seats to BOS, but the airline isn't going to make money that way.


Those same low yields go for IAH also, which just added its 3rd Chinese carrier. The IAH economy is also much weaker than BOS economy. So it appears yields obviously aren't holding Chinese carriers back from adding capacity if the traffic is there, which BOS apparently has.

So could another Chinese carrier start flights to either of PEK or PVG with HU already flying both (PVG only 3x/week)?


Houston has one Chinese airline and a second one is rumored, but nothing has been announced.

While there is a lot of U.S.-China capacity right now, there is also no room for Chinese or American carriers to add more PVG/PEK service. Maxed out on frequencies.
a.
 
hinckley
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:47 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
So could another Chinese carrier start flights to either of PEK or PVG with HU already flying both (PVG only 3x/week)?


The Chinese policy is one route, one Chinese-carrier. So HU locks out all other Chinese carriers on the PEK and PVG routes, and I think we know that no US carrier is going to start a China route from non-hub BOS. And there is likely no other viable routes from BOS for other Chinese carriers.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:52 pm

airbazar wrote:
If I was Boston, or any other major city for that matter, I would be subsidizing these flights by the bucket load and then recouping that money and then some, with their spending.


Please describe the mechanism(s) allowed under Mass. law and DOT rules that would allow you to do that. Describe the demographics and group(s) that would be providing the funding, and the groups that would be getting the benefits from more Chinese visitors.
 
Flighty
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:12 pm

B752OS wrote:
ScottB wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
In a couple years it's expected that 500k Chinese tourists will be visiting BOS annually. With the market so large - why does BOS only have CX 4x weekly to HKG (which I realize is going daily in May) and HU 3x weekly to PVG and daily to PEK?

Isn't there room for one more Chinese carrier to PVG the other 4-days HU doesn't operate? Or what about BR or CI to TPE? The market seems ripe for the picking.


Based on the yields in the market, I'm not sure there's really room for even one carrier to operate profitably. I can book a ticket right now about two weeks out for $550 round-trip on the HU non-stops to PEK. If I'm willing to connect, the price drops below $500 round-trip. Chinese tourists might fill a bunch of deeply-discounted seats to BOS, but the airline isn't going to make money that way.


Right now one can book a ticket on UA SFO-PEK round trip 2 weeks out for $486 round trip. Or ORD-PEK for $528 round trip 2 weeks out. Yes I know SFO/ORD-China is bigger than BOS-China. My question is how is UA making money offering fares that low?


Wish someone who has up-to-date knowledge would give us a clue if this is a crisis. It certainly looks one. Back in the SARS days, there were $199 Pacific RT fares. It's not much better than that now. And oil was free in '98.

Everybody is telling themselves this is such a key market. The decades go by and the yields do not improve. I think they should talk about ceasing China service. China has a lot of people, but so does Pakistan.
 
hinckley
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:20 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Please describe the mechanism(s) allowed under Mass. law and DOT rules that would allow you to do that. Describe the demographics and group(s) that would be providing the funding, and the groups that would be getting the benefits from more Chinese visitors.


It's quite common for airport authorities to lure new airlines and routes by subsidizing or fully eliminating airport fees, especially landing fees. Massport did exactly this to drive the huge foreign-carrier expansion that occurred at BOS over the past five years, and I believe there are still offers of subsidies for new routes to Brazil and India (no takers, so far).

Why does Massport do that? To bring in tourists and business people who stay at hotels and eat in restaurants and who pay hotel and restaurant taxes, and who drive hotel and restaurant income to provide additional income taxes.

Other questions?
 
hinckley
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:23 pm

Flighty wrote:
Everybody is telling themselves this is such a key market. The decades go by and the yields do not improve. I think they should talk about ceasing China service. China has a lot of people, but so does Pakistan.


China has a huge and hugely growing middle class. Pakistan does not.
 
clrd4t8koff
Topic Author
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:24 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Houston has one Chinese airline and a second one is rumored, but nothing has been announced.

While there is a lot of U.S.-China capacity right now, there is also no room for Chinese or American carriers to add more PVG/PEK service. Maxed out on frequencies.


Looks pretty official to me that IAH is getting MU service to PVG - http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... n-shanghai. So if China frequencies are maxed out then how are they adding this service?

As for the number of Chinese carriers at IAH - isn't BR, a Taiwanese carrier, technically part of the Republic of China? So that would be CA, BR and MU in IAH.
 
MAH4546
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:12 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Houston has one Chinese airline and a second one is rumored, but nothing has been announced.

While there is a lot of U.S.-China capacity right now, there is also no room for Chinese or American carriers to add more PVG/PEK service. Maxed out on frequencies.


Looks pretty official to me that IAH is getting MU service to PVG - http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... n-shanghai. So if China frequencies are maxed out then how are they adding this service?

As for the number of Chinese carriers at IAH - isn't BR, a Taiwanese carrier, technically part of the Republic of China? So that would be CA, BR and MU in IAH.


No, it is not official and has not been announced. I realize that article looks official, but nothing has been announced, as discussed in the thread.

EVA is a Taiwanese carrier. Taiwan is an independent country that has nothing to do with China, although people in mainland China might argue differently.
a.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:47 pm

airbazar wrote:
ScottB wrote:
Based on the yields in the market, I'm not sure there's really room for even one carrier to operate profitably. I can book a ticket right now about two weeks out for $550 round-trip on the HU non-stops to PEK. If I'm willing to connect, the price drops below $500 round-trip. Chinese tourists might fill a bunch of deeply-discounted seats to BOS, but the airline isn't going to make money that way.

Which is interesting to say the least because Chinese tourists aren't cheap. They spend a lot more than any other visitor. If I was Boston, or any other major city for that matter, I would be subsidizing these flights by the bucket load and then recouping that money and then some, with their spending.


Summer yields are much higher....

I'd love to know how many Americans are taking these flights for tourism purposes especially off-peak though I've heard the best time to go to PEK is anytime but summer due to smog. Getting a visa is a PITA though.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
TransGlobalGold
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:50 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
How about a flight to Guangzhou but I don't know this sort of market(china to Boston)



There are probably a lot of other cities that would get service to CAN before BOS.
 
globalcabotage
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:55 pm

I'm sure our friends in DTW will say that CAN, CTU, and all the other secondary China cities served via SFO/LAX/JFK, are much better served via DTW.

DTW has a better location, better hub, more secondary China O&D than NY, LA, SF, and CHI combined! Not to mention DTW and CAN have the highest per capita consumption of crickets and grasshoppers (although wings are not consumed in DTW). This should easily fill 2 380s per day!

Happy St. Patrick's Day! Enjoy the sarcasm with a Guinness while your bracket goes bust!
 
shintaenam
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:45 am

MAH4546 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Houston has one Chinese airline and a second one is rumored, but nothing has been announced.

While there is a lot of U.S.-China capacity right now, there is also no room for Chinese or American carriers to add more PVG/PEK service. Maxed out on frequencies.


Looks pretty official to me that IAH is getting MU service to PVG - http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... n-shanghai. So if China frequencies are maxed out then how are they adding this service?

As for the number of Chinese carriers at IAH - isn't BR, a Taiwanese carrier, technically part of the Republic of China? So that would be CA, BR and MU in IAH.


No, it is not official and has not been announced. I realize that article looks official, but nothing has been announced, as discussed in the thread.

EVA is a Taiwanese carrier. Taiwan is an independent country that has nothing to do with China, although people in mainland China might argue differently.


Can you show us solid proof that "Taiwan is an independent country"? Almost all countries (representing >99% of total global population) acknowledge that Taiwan Island is a province of the PRC. Even the so-called "constitution" in the island claims that they are a province of the long-defunct, so-called Republic of China, which was overthrown in 1949.
 
ScottB
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:16 am

shintaenam wrote:
Can you show us solid proof that "Taiwan is an independent country"? Almost all countries (representing >99% of total global population) acknowledge that Taiwan Island is a province of the PRC.


Virtually all countries acknowledge the legal fiction that the ROC & PRC are a single country because that is a precondition for diplomatic relations with the PRC. That doesn't change the fact that the ROC has a separate government, military, and foreign policy; most nations maintain diplomatic offices in Taiwan which for all intents and purposes function as embassies. If Taiwan were functionally part of the PRC, we'd expect to see carriers like CA, CZ, MU, HU, etc. operating far more extensive services from TPE.

adamh8297 wrote:
Getting a visa is a PITA though.


It's really not that bad if you use a service to do it, and there's an agency in Boston which does it for a fairly modest fee.

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Those same low yields go for IAH also, which just added its 3rd Chinese carrier. The IAH economy is also much weaker than BOS economy. So it appears yields obviously aren't holding Chinese carriers back from adding capacity if the traffic is there, which BOS apparently has.


IMO the Chinese carriers are in these markets for analogous reason to why the U.S. carriers all jumped into the limited frequencies to HAV -- the bilateral and Chinese government policy (i.e. the one-Chinese-carrier-per-airport-pair rule) may limit profitable market opportunities in the future, so they feel it is worth it to eat losses in hope of future returns.
 
MAH4546
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:29 am

shintaenam wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Looks pretty official to me that IAH is getting MU service to PVG - http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... n-shanghai. So if China frequencies are maxed out then how are they adding this service?

As for the number of Chinese carriers at IAH - isn't BR, a Taiwanese carrier, technically part of the Republic of China? So that would be CA, BR and MU in IAH.


No, it is not official and has not been announced. I realize that article looks official, but nothing has been announced, as discussed in the thread.

EVA is a Taiwanese carrier. Taiwan is an independent country that has nothing to do with China, although people in mainland China might argue differently.


Can you show us solid proof that "Taiwan is an independent country"? Almost all countries (representing >99% of total global population) acknowledge that Taiwan Island is a province of the PRC. Even the so-called "constitution" in the island claims that they are a province of the long-defunct, so-called Republic of China, which was overthrown in 1949.


Taiwan is an independent country. No proof needed to show common sense that a nation with its own currency, air treaties, government, etc is independent.
a.
 
Flighty
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:53 am

shintaenam wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Looks pretty official to me that IAH is getting MU service to PVG - http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... n-shanghai. So if China frequencies are maxed out then how are they adding this service?

As for the number of Chinese carriers at IAH - isn't BR, a Taiwanese carrier, technically part of the Republic of China? So that would be CA, BR and MU in IAH.


No, it is not official and has not been announced. I realize that article looks official, but nothing has been announced, as discussed in the thread.

EVA is a Taiwanese carrier. Taiwan is an independent country that has nothing to do with China, although people in mainland China might argue differently.


Can you show us solid proof that "Taiwan is an independent country"? Almost all countries (representing >99% of total global population) acknowledge that Taiwan Island is a province of the PRC. Even the so-called "constitution" in the island claims that they are a province of the long-defunct, so-called Republic of China, which was overthrown in 1949.


False. ROC still exists, headquartered in Taipei. A place that has never been under Chinese Communist government. They are separate countries. You should read more carefully. No, virtually no countries say that Taiwan is a province of PRC. They say that both the PRC and the ROC are Chinese states. The meaning of what a "China" is is left unspecified.
 
hinckley
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:42 am

Flighty wrote:
ROC still exists, headquartered in Taipei. A place that has never been under Chinese Communist government. They are separate countries. You should read more carefully. No, virtually no countries say that Taiwan is a province of PRC. They say that both the PRC and the ROC are Chinese states. The meaning of what a "China" is is left unspecified.


Not even close.

There are only a handful of small countries that recognize the ROC as a separate country (the Vatican, a few small African countries and some Polynesian islands). Other countries walk the tightrope of a "One China" (PRC) policy. They have ambassadors only in Beijing while simultaneously calling on the Beijing and Taipei governments to find a peaceful solution to their split, and maintaining commercial - and in some cases - military ties with the Taiwan.
 
flymco753
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:43 pm

globalcabotage wrote:
I'm sure our friends in DTW will say that CAN, CTU, and all the other secondary China cities served via SFO/LAX/JFK, are much better served via DTW.

DTW has a better location, better hub, more secondary China O&D than NY, LA, SF, and CHI combined! Not to mention DTW and CAN have the highest per capita consumption of crickets and grasshoppers (although wings are not consumed in DTW). This should easily fill 2 380s per day!

Happy St. Patrick's Day! Enjoy the sarcasm with a Guinness while your bracket goes bust!
Hey look another one of your pointless comments that serve no real purpose, find a new hobby.
Welcome to the city beautiful.
 
nadavatar64
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:43 pm

TransGlobalGold wrote:
TheGeordielad wrote:
How about a flight to Guangzhou but I don't know this sort of market(china to Boston)



There are probably a lot of other cities that would get service to CAN before BOS.


Agree to diagree, Give me one city that is more likely to have service to BOS before CAN. The only one I can think of is CTU but thats very unlikely. I think BOS-CAN will happen eventually, but that could take a while.
 
clrd4t8koff
Topic Author
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:02 pm

BOS-CAN on CZ would be a nice way to give ST a presence on BOS-Asia and probably the only ST option since MU can't fly PVG-BOS since HU already does. Could CZ's 787-8 make it with restrictions?
 
Flighty
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:10 pm

hinckley wrote:
Flighty wrote:
ROC still exists, headquartered in Taipei. A place that has never been under Chinese Communist government. They are separate countries. You should read more carefully. No, virtually no countries say that Taiwan is a province of PRC. They say that both the PRC and the ROC are Chinese states. The meaning of what a "China" is is left unspecified.


Not even close.

There are only a handful of small countries that recognize the ROC as a separate country (the Vatican, a few small African countries and some Polynesian islands). Other countries walk the tightrope of a "One China" (PRC) policy. They have ambassadors only in Beijing while simultaneously calling on the Beijing and Taipei governments to find a peaceful solution to their split, and maintaining commercial - and in some cases - military ties with the Taiwan.


"One China" doesn't mean it is the PRC. It means the PRC is part of China.
 
B752OS
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:16 pm

nadavatar64 wrote:
TransGlobalGold wrote:
TheGeordielad wrote:
How about a flight to Guangzhou but I don't know this sort of market(china to Boston)



There are probably a lot of other cities that would get service to CAN before BOS.


Agree to diagree, Give me one city that is more likely to have service to BOS before CAN. The only one I can think of is CTU but thats very unlikely. I think BOS-CAN will happen eventually, but that could take a while.


I am going to guess the poster was referring to cities in the United States getting service to CAN before Boston does.
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:43 pm

TransGlobalGold wrote:
TheGeordielad wrote:
How about a flight to Guangzhou but I don't know this sort of market(china to Boston)



There are probably a lot of other cities that would get service to CAN before BOS.


Ok what routes do you think could/would get a service to Can before Bos?
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:46 pm

[quote=''B752OS'']

I am going to guess the poster was referring to cities in the United States getting service to CAN before Boston does.[/quote]

Yeah I was.
 
airbazar
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:01 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
If I was Boston, or any other major city for that matter, I would be subsidizing these flights by the bucket load and then recouping that money and then some, with their spending.


Please describe the mechanism(s) allowed under Mass. law and DOT rules that would allow you to do that. Describe the demographics and group(s) that would be providing the funding, and the groups that would be getting the benefits from more Chinese visitors.

Uh? Massport already does that and so do most cities or airports. It's also common for tourism organizations or chambers of commerce to subsidize routes. It happens everywhere, all the time. All I'm saying is that given the amount of money that Chinese tourists spend, we should probably be subsidizing these Chinese flights even more.
TransGlobalGold wrote:
There are probably a lot of other cities that would get service to CAN before BOS.

Why?
The major ones are already served: SFO, LAX, NYC. SEA has the advantage of being the closest but after that I put BOS up there as the next logical city to get service. The CX flight to HKG has exceeded all expectations. I think that's a good sign. In addition, CZ is a SkyTeam carrier and ST doesn't have any flights from Boston to Asia.
ScottB wrote:
IMO the Chinese carriers are in these markets for analogous reason to why the U.S. carriers all jumped into the limited frequencies to HAV -- the bilateral and Chinese government policy (i.e. the one-Chinese-carrier-per-airport-pair rule) may limit profitable market opportunities in the future, so they feel it is worth it to eat losses in hope of future returns.

What proof do you have that they're losing money? I think people assume that just because the fares are low, they are not making money.
 
TransGlobalGold
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:31 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
TransGlobalGold wrote:
TheGeordielad wrote:
How about a flight to Guangzhou but I don't know this sort of market(china to Boston)



There are probably a lot of other cities that would get service to CAN before BOS.


Ok what routes do you think could/would get a service to Can before Bos?


The two most obvious to me are SEA and ORD.
 
nadavatar64
Posts: 216
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:16 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
[quote=''B752OS'']

I am going to guess the poster was referring to cities in the United States getting service to CAN before Boston does.


Yeah I was.[/quote]

Sorry mate, my bad. What you stated might be true. I think ORD is the most obvious choice. But I sincerely not seeing SEA before BOS as others have stated.
 
B752OS
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:28 pm

airbazar wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
If I was Boston, or any other major city for that matter, I would be subsidizing these flights by the bucket load and then recouping that money and then some, with their spending.


Please describe the mechanism(s) allowed under Mass. law and DOT rules that would allow you to do that. Describe the demographics and group(s) that would be providing the funding, and the groups that would be getting the benefits from more Chinese visitors.

Uh? Massport already does that and so do most cities or airports. It's also common for tourism organizations or chambers of commerce to subsidize routes. It happens everywhere, all the time. All I'm saying is that given the amount of money that Chinese tourists spend, we should probably be subsidizing these Chinese flights even more.
.


Exactly. It's no different than a state, or city granting tax breaks for a company to move their operations there, or to expand operations to a certain area.
 
hinckley
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:02 pm

Deleted dup post
Last edited by hinckley on Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
hinckley
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:03 pm

Deleted dup post
Last edited by hinckley on Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
hinckley
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:04 pm

Flighty wrote:
"One China" doesn't mean it is the PRC. It means the PRC is part of China.


I probably should let this go, but again, you are completely mistaken. Using the US as an example, we have an ambassador in Beijing who presents his credentials to representatives of the government of the PRC. In Washington, there is a PRC embassy. There is no ROC embassy. When the UN was established in the late 1940s, the ROC was a permanent member of the Security Council. When the "One China" policy was established, the ROC was kicked out of the UN completely, and the PRC took its seat on the Council.
 
c933103
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:10 pm

nah. one china doesn't mean prc being part of china, but it dalso does not mean PRC is china. It mean china is a country, no matter the country is PRC or ROC, but there could only be one single china, neither of them can declare they take part of china, by this the integrity of the concept of china is recognised.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:48 pm

Just curious as to why Boston is such a popular destination for Chinese tourists.
 
B752OS
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:03 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
Just curious as to why Boston is such a popular destination for Chinese tourists.


Boston and its surrounding cities and towns have a lot of historical sites relating to American history. Really only Philadelphia can match what the Boston area offers. Boston also has some pretty good museums. I think movies have also helped. In the last decade we've seen a lot of movies set in the city and Boston area - The Town, Gone Baby Gone, The Fighter, The Departed, Black Mass among some others. Boston is a nice, clean and walk-able city with great neighborhoods. I would also think the introduction of non-stop flights to Beijing and Shanghai has been a boon as well.
 
klm617
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:03 am

globalcabotage wrote:
I'm sure our friends in DTW will say that CAN, CTU, and all the other secondary China cities served via SFO/LAX/JFK, are much better served via DTW.

DTW has a better location, better hub, more secondary China O&D than NY, LA, SF, and CHI combined! Not to mention DTW and CAN have the highest per capita consumption of crickets and grasshoppers (although wings are not consumed in DTW). This should easily fill 2 380s per day!

Happy St. Patrick's Day! Enjoy the sarcasm with a Guinness while your bracket goes bust!



You better believe that DTW is a better choice than BOS to be connected to CAN. Detroit is a skyteam hub and can provide connections to every major city in the eastern United States. Again tourists don't equal acceptable yields to warrant service in a given market. as many have pointed out here to me over and over again. If an airline thought they could make money in the Boston China market Boston would already be linked to China directly.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
33lspotter
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:44 am

klm617 wrote:
If an airline thought they could make money in the Boston China market Boston would already be linked to China directly.


Don't disagree that DTW is preferable to BOS as far as CAN service goes, but I'm assuming by this statement that you mean Boston would already be linked to secondary Chinese cities directly? Boston already has non stop flights to PEK and PVG on HU.
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adamh8297
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:30 am

One problem that HU and any Chinese carrier has in BOS is that many companies probably do not allow travel on the airline unless you make a strong case for it (sometimes trip convenience doesn't count). This helps CX and JL with their AA codeshares and could help a DL launch a BOS-PVG but they just do not have the right plane in my opinion. The 787 sure would have fit DL BOS expansion plans nicely. They would be more likely to put a A350 on BOS-ICN before PVG and I'm not sure they are even thinking of that until a JV with KE is finalized.

MAH4546 wrote:

While there is a lot of U.S.-China capacity right now, there is also no room for Chinese or American carriers to add more PVG/PEK service. Maxed out on frequencies.


Are CAN frequencies maxed out for Chinese carriers? Aren't their two tiers: Tier I- PEK/PVG/CAN Tier- II everything else. Also CZ doesn't get any new widebodies that could serve anything other than SEA (DL uses A330 on SEA-HKG) until 2018.

B752OS wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Just curious as to why Boston is such a popular destination for Chinese tourists.


Boston and its surrounding cities and towns have a lot of historical sites relating to American history. Really only Philadelphia can match what the Boston area offers. Boston also has some pretty good museums.l.


Add MIT - Harvard - BU - Tufts - Northeastern to the mix. They are touring these schools and paying full price for the education. Northeastern actually has the most international students in Massachusetts

There are Chinese tours going throughout New England as well - see link below: Chinese offered as language for tour: http://www.taketours.com/boston-ma/5-da ... -2906.html

klm617 wrote:
You better believe that DTW is a better choice than BOS to be connected to CAN. Detroit is a skyteam hub and can provide connections to every major city in the eastern United States.


It probably is in CZ's interest to serve DTW-CAN at somepoint if they get closer to DL - Doesn't stop a HU or other smaller Chinese carrier from trying CAN-BOS on a 2x-3x weekly basis before that flight is even launched especially if there's a sudden grab for frequencies. Would be cool to see HU add a mix of two of the following CTU/CAN/XIY twice a week to the "Terminal E slot" they have for the PVG flight.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
Flighty
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:56 am

hinckley wrote:
Flighty wrote:
"One China" doesn't mean it is the PRC. It means the PRC is part of China.


I probably should let this go, but again, you are completely mistaken. Using the US as an example, we have an ambassador in Beijing who presents his credentials to representatives of the government of the PRC. In Washington, there is a PRC embassy. There is no ROC embassy. When the UN was established in the late 1940s, the ROC was a permanent member of the Security Council. When the "One China" policy was established, the ROC was kicked out of the UN completely, and the PRC took its seat on the Council.


Yeah, it's complicated. The US "one china" does not endorse that PRC is the government for all of China (including Taiwan), and it's not. In fact, the US has a military investment in a very different story. US does not endorse that Taiwan is a breakaway province of China. The PRC state does not include it, and never did, at least in American eyes.

Officially, we consider it an ambiguous, stateless region (which is true enough), but de facto, it is a state, with its own president, laws, diplomatic relations, customs, currency, military command and alliances, passports. None of this contradicts anything you have said, so I am sure everybody is done here.

airbazar wrote:
ScottB wrote:
IMO the Chinese carriers are in these markets for analogous reason to why the U.S. carriers all jumped into the limited frequencies to HAV -- the bilateral and Chinese government policy (i.e. the one-Chinese-carrier-per-airport-pair rule) may limit profitable market opportunities in the future, so they feel it is worth it to eat losses in hope of future returns.

What proof do you have that they're losing money? I think people assume that just because the fares are low, they are not making money.


I wouldn't call that an assumption, more of a documented fact, assuming fares are as low as we are seeing. Costs are known within a few percent. If they are making 5 cent RASM they are losing their butts.
 
c933103
Posts: 862
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:05 am

Flighty wrote:
Wish someone who has up-to-date knowledge would give us a clue if this is a crisis. It certainly looks one. Back in the SARS days, there were $199 Pacific RT fares. It's not much better than that now. And oil was free in '98.

Everybody is telling themselves this is such a key market. The decades go by and the yields do not improve. I think they should talk about ceasing China service. China has a lot of people, but so does Pakistan.

Weren't airlines stop flying to pk just because of the perceived safety situation there according to some other threads?
 
airbazar
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Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:47 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Just curious as to why Boston is such a popular destination for Chinese tourists.

Well "popular is relative". Boston is nowhere on par with the likes of San Francisco or New York. But it's not just tourists. In fact I wonder how much of it is tourism and how much of it is business. We have 300+ research and educational institutions in the area. That is the number 1 attraction and it generates a lot of traffic. For tourism, Boston's close proximity to NY is the main attraction. The majority of Chinese tourists visit the U.S. on packaged multi-city tours. Having the ability to fly into one city out of the other is a huge benefit.

adamh8297 wrote:
One problem that HU and any Chinese carrier has in BOS is that many companies probably do not allow travel on the airline unless you make a strong case for it (sometimes trip convenience doesn't count).

I never heard of that in regards to HU which is as reputable an airline as any. Usually that restriction exists only when we're talking about airlines on some black list. To me the biggest problem is that your average American passenger probably doesn't feel comfortable yet at transiting in China.

Flighty wrote:
I wouldn't call that an assumption, more of a documented fact, assuming fares are as low as we are seeing. Costs are known within a few percent. If they are making 5 cent RASM they are losing their butts.

Documented fact just like the subsidies for EK, right? Please. HU is a publicly traded company. Their finances are out in the open for everyone to see an they are making money hand over fist. To me that's the only documented fact I need to see. And if HU can make money on such low fares I have to believe that other airlines can too.
 
Flighty
Posts: 8477
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:47 pm

airbazar wrote:
Flighty wrote:
I wouldn't call that an assumption, more of a documented fact, assuming fares are as low as we are seeing. Costs are known within a few percent. If they are making 5 cent RASM they are losing their butts.

Documented fact just like the subsidies for EK, right? Please. HU is a publicly traded company. Their finances are out in the open for everyone to see an they are making money hand over fist. To me that's the only documented fact I need to see. And if HU can make money on such low fares I have to believe that other airlines can too.


So you are saying their RASM is higher than it appears. Good point, not sure I believe it, but maybe. Hainan seems to be making money, but in the PRC who really knows.
 
bzcat
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: BOS-China...underserved market?

Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:34 pm

hinckley wrote:
Flighty wrote:
"One China" doesn't mean it is the PRC. It means the PRC is part of China.


I probably should let this go, but again, you are completely mistaken. Using the US as an example, we have an ambassador in Beijing who presents his credentials to representatives of the government of the PRC. In Washington, there is a PRC embassy. There is no ROC embassy. When the UN was established in the late 1940s, the ROC was a permanent member of the Security Council. When the "One China" policy was established, the ROC was kicked out of the UN completely, and the PRC took its seat on the Council.


Yea you probably should because your facts are not really facts.

ROC didn't get kicked off of UN. ROC withdrew from UN after its permanent member seat was given to PRC. UN didn't have a "One China" policy, just like it didn't have a "One Germany" or "One Vietnam" or "One Yemen" or "One Korea" policy or "One Palestine" policy. ROC was allowed to keep its UN general assembly seat but the idiots in charge of ROC back then decided to withdraw, which then gave PRC sole representation of China. But that's besides the point because ROC is not Taiwan, it is just currently illegally occupying Taiwan.

At the end of WW2 hostility in 1945, the allied powers took over all the axis power colonies (e.g. Korea, Taiwan, Southeast Asia, German and Italian controlled Africa and Pacific Islands etc) and UN resolutions granted all these colonial possessions the right of self-determination.

Under international law, Taiwan is the last remaining WW2 axis power colony that didn't get a plebiscite on independence. ROC was allowed to occupy Taiwan in 1945 since it was the nearest allied power (just like Australia was allowed to occupy New Guinea) but ROC never followed through on its UN obligation to give Taiwan a plebiscite on self-determination within a reasonable time. Instead it imposed martial law on the island and then subsequently illegally annexed the island in 1949 when ROC was moved to Taiwan after losing the Chinese civil war to the Communist.

The treaty of San Francisco in 1951 that concluded Japan's terms of surrender in WW2 specifically says Taiwan's status is unresolved because there is no one to "surrender" Taiwan to - Taiwanese had not had that plebiscite to determine its own fate so under treaty it cannot be given to another allied power (e.g. China), and that remains the official position of the US Govt. We do not recognize the PRC claim on Taiwan (nor technically ROC's claim on Taiwan) - the US just acknowledge that both Chinese Govt's position that Taiwan is part of China (despite UN resolution and international treaty to the contrary). But even that is kind of silly clown show because the ROC Govt renounced its claim on Chinese mainland (termed as "non-free area" in the ROC constitution) back in the 1990s so it currently only claim to legitimately represent Taiwan.

In practice, since Taiwan is the only significant remaining possession of ROC, and the fact that the ROC Govt over the years have obfuscate the difference between ROC and Taiwan and glossed over the illegal annexation, there is a common held understanding that ROC = Taiwan. That's ok for commercial purpose (such as determining aviation rights) and for practical sovereignty issues like international tax remittance or entry and exit documents (visa and passport etc). But for legal purpose, Taiwan remains the last axis colony occupied by an allied power that has not been granted independence or given the chance to self-determine by that occupying power.

Basically, imagine if the UK Govt somehow lost a civil war in UK and temporarily relocated to the part of Germany that was under UK occupation in 1949 and stayed there claiming to represent not only that part of Germany but also the UK. That's the ROC position on Taiwan.

Now imagine if the subsequent UK Govt that won the civil war now claims Ireland and parts of France as part of its territory because at some point in history, some other Govt of England in the 1700s (as opposed to UK) had owned Ireland and 1/3 of France. That's the PRC position on Taiwan.

If the Taiwanese were allowed to figure this out on their own, they probably would have nothing to do with ROC or PRC.

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