TransGlobalGold
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China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:25 am

Saw this on ATW Online just now. It's a premium areticle and I didn't renew my subscription. Anyone know anything on this? If duplicate, mods please delete.
 
globalcabotage
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:03 am

First ORD, now IAH. Trying to keep * out. Maybe they'll add DFW and go after 1.

I'm sure the DTW lovers are pissed at this!
 
MAH4546
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:04 am

How? U.S.-China slots are all spoken for on the Chinese side. Must be reducing service elsewhere.
a.
 
flymco753
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:06 am

globalcabotage wrote:
I'm sure the DTW lovers are pissed at this!
Smh, and the "DTW lovers" are pissed at you too. :bigthumbsup:
Welcome to the city beautiful.
 
thomasphoto60
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:07 am

Someone made a similar posting at Houston Spotters last Sept, quoting the same source. I suspect if there was anything to it, we would have heard something by now. Still one can hope, 2016 was a rough year for IAH with regards to new routes and/or carriers and so far '17' is not looking much better.
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Overthecascades
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:21 am

MAH4546 wrote:
How? U.S.-China slots are all spoken for on the Chinese side. Must be reducing service elsewhere.


I'm hearing MU is reducing ORD and HNL flights each by two, giving IAH a 4x weekly schedule. So no additional slots.
 
TransGlobalGold
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:21 am

MAH4546 wrote:
How? U.S.-China slots are all spoken for on the Chinese side. Must be reducing service elsewhere.


It was a premium article in ATW Online daily newsletter. It also mentioned two new Europeans services by MU. I didn't renew my subscription, so the article cutoff without any dates or details.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:30 am

It is what it is...
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:50 am

Kudos to IAH!

I have no idea how IAH attracts so many airlines!?! I know the oil is there, but there is no comparison between IAH and DFW just a few hours north! I was there just yesterday, stunned at the lineup, and not pictured is Air China, Air New Zealand, ANA, Eva, Korean, Singapore, and Turkish! Many airports can't even dream of such a wide array of airlines and destinations!

And now they get to add MU to that list! Shanghai is a great add, anyone know what equipment?

So IAH now has:

Air China
China Eastern
EVA
Singapore Airlines
ANA
Korean

CX, you're next :stirthepot:

Image
 
COflyerBOS
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:18 am

Color me surprised. Anyone know which aircraft will fly the route?
 
thomasphoto60
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:09 am

COflyerBOS wrote:
Color me surprised. Anyone know which aircraft will fly the route?


If true, I suspect the 773.
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
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alex0easy
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:56 am

COflyerBOS wrote:
Color me surprised. Anyone know which aircraft will fly the route?

If they aren't waiting for the B789s and A359s they've ordered, 77W is their only choice now.
Probably using those being cut from ORD.
 
Pbb2173
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:41 am

No equipment type is mentioned in the article, but as others have stated, it would have to be a 777W if the route is starting in 3-4 months. I don't think MU currently has any other aircraft capable of operating PVG-IAH nonstop.

The two new European cities mentioned in the article are Edinburgh and Stockholm. No definitive dates. It just says "sometime this year". It also mentions MU is studying Milan and Düsseldorf services but with no definitive plans to start either one. All flights would be operated from PVG.
 
FlyingSicilian
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:42 am

Interesting add. SkyTeam is growing at IAH it seems. I heard Delta and AeroMexico were thinking of some growth also.
Thanks for posting the news!
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
c933103
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:58 pm

- On some random Chinese forum, some netizen claims that IAH airport board aren't willing to provide good time slot, or else every Chinese airline would have opened routes to IAH. Thus they are also pessimistic about the route.
- According to plan leaked online last summer http://news.carnoc.com/list/359/359633.html , from PVG, their ORD route have better operational condition than expected in 2016 summer/fall, and MU will continue to push for "Pacific Project" in 2016/2017 winter/spring, which would cut ORD flight to six weekly, while maintaining flight to LAX/NYC/YVR at twice daily and all other destinations at once daily. From the document they would assess and fight for opening IAH destination in 2017 summer/fall
- Also in the above document it is also said that, from PVG, they will continue to push the "Project Profit Europe" and maintain current frequency for new destination as well as assess Milan/Stockholm/DUS for 2017 summer/fall, and it also said they would depend on situation up-gauge SYD/MEL/AKL to 77W, relaunch Brisbane with year round 1x daily and assess Perth for 2017/2018 winter/spring. Cairo is also assessed
- and outside PVG, they have planned to open routes including Kunming-Sydney, PEk-HGH-SYD, XIY-WUH-SYD, and assess routes includes PEK-HGH-AKL, XIY-(Nanjing/WUH)-MEL, XIY-YVR, Nanjing-Paris
 
FlyingSicilian
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:21 pm

AFAIK IAH does not have "slots"

Terminal D is now very full with widebodies in the afternoon so space could be an issue but it is not a slot controlled airport.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
Pbb2173
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:09 pm

No, IAH does not have slots. But depending on the proposed schedule, it very well may have to do with the ability to handle the flight at Terminal D. There is no room at all during the peak times from around 1pm to 6pm. I would think any slot issues would be on the Shanghai end.
 
FlyingSicilian
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:27 pm

I believe under the temp agreement during the renovation and construction UNITED is going to allow some aircraft to use their gates (once they get the new C phase open later this month). Not 100% sure but I remember reading that as part of the plan somewhere. I would presume the E gates with the FIS access though they could tow to C north for departures.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:34 pm

c933103 wrote:
- On some random Chinese forum, some netizen claims that IAH airport board aren't willing to provide good time slot, or else every Chinese airline would have opened routes to IAH. Thus they are also pessimistic about the route.
- According to plan leaked online last summer http://news.carnoc.com/list/359/359633.html , from PVG, their ORD route have better operational condition than expected in 2016 summer/fall, and MU will continue to push for "Pacific Project" in 2016/2017 winter/spring, which would cut ORD flight to six weekly, while maintaining flight to LAX/NYC/YVR at twice daily and all other destinations at once daily. From the document they would assess and fight for opening IAH destination in 2017 summer/fall
- Also in the above document it is also said that, from PVG, they will continue to push the "Project Profit Europe" and maintain current frequency for new destination as well as assess Milan/Stockholm/DUS for 2017 summer/fall, and it also said they would depend on situation up-gauge SYD/MEL/AKL to 77W, relaunch Brisbane with year round 1x daily and assess Perth for 2017/2018 winter/spring. Cairo is also assessed
- and outside PVG, they have planned to open routes including Kunming-Sydney, PEk-HGH-SYD, XIY-WUH-SYD, and assess routes includes PEK-HGH-AKL, XIY-(Nanjing/WUH)-MEL, XIY-YVR, Nanjing-Paris


As has been noted, IAH has no slots so that story is fully bunk.
It is what it is...
 
klm617
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:57 pm

KTPAFlyer wrote:
Kudos to IAH!

I have no idea how IAH attracts so many airlines!?! I know the oil is there, but there is no comparison between IAH and DFW just a few hours north! I was there just yesterday, stunned at the lineup, and not pictured is Air China, Air New Zealand, ANA, Eva, Korean, Singapore, and Turkish! Many airports can't even dream of such a wide array of airlines and destinations!

And now they get to add MU to that list! Shanghai is a great add, anyone know what equipment?

So IAH now has:

Air China
China Eastern
EVA
Singapore Airlines
ANA
Korean

CX, you're next :stirthepot:

Image



They have an amazing airport administration that knows how to get the job done that isn't afraid of their hub carrier, knows the value of choice in the market place and understands the revenue that each new flight creates for the local economy.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
HeeseokKoo
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:16 pm

MU might be able to use morning slot, like 11am arrival and 1pm departure similar to what KE does. Or arrive in the evening and leave around midnight like EVA does. Different from flights from Europe, Asian carriers don't have to rely on the tight afternoon slot/terminal.
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:52 pm

Pbb2173 wrote:
No, IAH does not have slots. But depending on the proposed schedule, it very well may have to do with the ability to handle the flight at Terminal D. There is no room at all during the peak times from around 1pm to 6pm. I would think any slot issues would be on the Shanghai end.


Yes, D is very busy in the afternoon, and even then, CA and NZ are parked on the hardstand, and both CA and EVA have midnight departures; I wouldn't be surprised if MU gets a midnight slot as well.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:58 pm

Keep in mind before anyone gets too excited, nothing has been applied for with the DOT.

I honestly cant see such a short notice June or July launch.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
c933103
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:00 pm

*Clarification: The original chinese forum post I was reading was about how Air China's flight from IAH weren't doing well and have to reduce frequency because no company would fund their employee to get a business class ticket on a flight departing at midnight 1am, and the original poster also believed there are not as much oil traffic to Shanghai compare to Beijing and it would unlikely for MU to find an US airlines to codeshare the flight.
Note that there are also other posters on the forum disagree with these points.
 
by738
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:47 pm

Looking at China Eastern on all the usual review sites, they dont really come out well in comparison to other carriers.
Are the services mainly for inbound Chinese pax? cant see many Euro or US flyers picking them as first choice.
How bad is their service? Is Shanghai mot a heavily delayed hub? What are connections like with them?
I dont think I would be entertaining flying with them.
 
thomasphoto60
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:35 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Keep in mind before anyone gets too excited, nothing has been applied for with the DOT.

I honestly cant see such a short notice June or July launch.


Bingo, I realize I am a "negative nellie" on these announcements but this doesn't pass the smell test. As noted no DOT application filed, no announcement from HAS (Houston Airports Systems), vague start up dates, not feelin it...
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
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rossmrr
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:13 pm

Is there any more info about an Edinburgh route? Would be interesting if this were to start as Edinburgh has no direct China routes!
 
Breathe
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:20 pm

EDI have been looking for a direct route to China for the last couple of years. There were rumours of HU adding an add-on from BHX.
 
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rossmrr
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:48 pm

Yeah they're hoping they'll get one, seems quite likely given the Chinese tourism into Edinburgh City.

Yeah I believe it was a piggy back flights they were looking at with Manchester. However Manchester now has the service so who knows what will happen in the future.
 
by738
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:08 pm

.... anyway, back to the proposed route to IAH a far bigger year round market.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:38 pm

Next week CA reduces PEK-IAH to 5 weekly. The frequencies will go towards expanding EWR and IAD. So MU's addition is only a net gain of two flights/week to China.

This kind of shuffling around is all the Chinese carriers can do to add US routes or expand service in select cities.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
toxtethogrady
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:53 pm

The difference between IAH and DFW seems to be that DFW has an aggressive hub carrier that has added its own international spokes, thus limiting the ability of foreign flag carriers to come into the market and be profitable. IAH is the reverse, as the foreign carriers move into the market first, leaving United little room to start their own services.
 
jmertic
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:55 pm

by738 wrote:
Looking at China Eastern on all the usual review sites, they dont really come out well in comparison to other carriers.
Are the services mainly for inbound Chinese pax? cant see many Euro or US flyers picking them as first choice.
How bad is their service? Is Shanghai mot a heavily delayed hub? What are connections like with them?
I dont think I would be entertaining flying with them.


3 reasons I picked them on a past trip to SIN ( even going so far as a complex YYZ connection to boot )...

- They are dirt cheap for a J ticket to most of SE Asia ( think less than 50% of DL/UA/AA )
- Full mileage earning on DL
- Solid hard product on the 77W ( reverse herringbone seats )

The soft product is so-so and the PVG transit experience is for sure no SIN/ICN/etc, but if getting to Asia fully rested is important to you then this is a winner.
 
toxtethogrady
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:56 pm

But this service is likely to happen. Air Transport World is not in the habit of printing fake news.
 
thomasphoto60
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:19 pm

toxtethogrady wrote:
The difference between IAH and DFW seems to be that DFW has an aggressive hub carrier that has added its own international spokes, thus limiting the ability of foreign flag carriers to come into the market and be profitable. IAH is the reverse, as the foreign carriers move into the market first, leaving United little room to start their own services.


Agreed, though UA (and CO) shows little interest in expanding IAH on the int'l front, save for Latin America.
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Pbb2173
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:39 pm

thomasphoto60 wrote:
toxtethogrady wrote:
The difference between IAH and DFW seems to be that DFW has an aggressive hub carrier that has added its own international spokes, thus limiting the ability of foreign flag carriers to come into the market and be profitable. IAH is the reverse, as the foreign carriers move into the market first, leaving United little room to start their own services.


Agreed, though UA (and CO) shows little interest in expanding IAH on the int'l front, save for Latin America.


Honestly Thomas, I think this is a good thing for IAH. And I understand that UA has much higher priorities for Asia and Europe. I would much rather we get all of the foreign airlines picking up where UA is leaving off. It makes for a better time for us spotters.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:45 pm

thomasphoto60 wrote:
toxtethogrady wrote:
The difference between IAH and DFW seems to be that DFW has an aggressive hub carrier that has added its own international spokes, thus limiting the ability of foreign flag carriers to come into the market and be profitable. IAH is the reverse, as the foreign carriers move into the market first, leaving United little room to start their own services.


Agreed, though UA (and CO) shows little interest in expanding IAH on the int'l front, save for Latin America.


And they've been cutting Mexico recently. DGO, CME, SLX, etc. all gone!
It is what it is...
 
MIflyer12
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:57 pm

toxtethogrady wrote:
The difference between IAH and DFW seems to be that DFW has an aggressive hub carrier that has added its own international spokes, thus limiting the ability of foreign flag carriers to come into the market and be profitable. IAH is the reverse, as the foreign carriers move into the market first, leaving United little room to start their own services.


I think that's the better answer. I don't recall seeing a recent comparison from the poster who does the single-page major hubs flights/seats/ASM analysis, but, IIRC, AA @ DFW is something like 70% larger than UA at IAH.
 
thomasphoto60
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:53 pm

Pbb2173 wrote:
thomasphoto60 wrote:
toxtethogrady wrote:
The difference between IAH and DFW seems to be that DFW has an aggressive hub carrier that has added its own international spokes, thus limiting the ability of foreign flag carriers to come into the market and be profitable. IAH is the reverse, as the foreign carriers move into the market first, leaving United little room to start their own services.


Agreed, though UA (and CO) shows little interest in expanding IAH on the int'l front, save for Latin America.


Honestly Thomas, I think this is a good thing for IAH. And I understand that UA has much higher priorities for Asia and Europe. I would much rather we get all of the foreign airlines picking up where UA is leaving off. It makes for a better time for us spotters.


Agree 100%, I have no issues with UA keeping a low int'l profile at IAH. Hell, I would love to see a flood of Latin carrier sweep in, but with UA being so dominant in this area, I just don't see it happening.
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Fastphilly
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:37 pm

UA has no ideal hub for Latin American flights except IAH so if there is any region to maintain or add flights from IAH it is Latin America. UA has an Asian hub already so they aren't as aggressive launching IAH-Asia routes like AA is at DFW. Since AA has expanded their LAX TPAC ops DFW hasn't seen any new routes to Asia and I'm betting you won't see any new routes for quite some time to come.
 
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FLIHGH
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:28 am

by738 wrote:
Looking at China Eastern on all the usual review sites, they dont really come out well in comparison to other carriers.
Are the services mainly for inbound Chinese pax? cant see many Euro or US flyers picking them as first choice.
How bad is their service? Is Shanghai mot a heavily delayed hub? What are connections like with them?
I dont think I would be entertaining flying with them.

Just got back from a 10 day trip to Asia on them. ORD-PVG was delayed 10 hours which made nearly the entire plane miss connections. We missed our MU flight to SIN and then missed our flight on JetStar from SIN-HKT. China Eastern booked us a direct PVG-HKT (which they did not have to do), gave us $170 USD each, lounge passes, and a hotel for the day. The delay sucked, but we got to explore Shanghai as a result, plus didn't pay for food or anything for days because of the cash they gave us. Flights were about 90% full each way, with a good mix of Americans and Chinese pax in all cabins. Lots of American college students going on spring break (my group included). 773 was very nice (very new both ways), as was the movie selection. Chinese regulations onboard (no phones, etc) made the flights a bit rough, but for $460 round trip, no major complaints.
 
jetero
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:08 am

klm617 wrote:
They have an amazing airport administration that knows how to get the job done that isn't afraid of their hub carrier, knows the value of choice in the market place and understands the revenue that each new flight creates for the local economy.


What does airport administration have to do with it? HAS would be the first to issue a press release if anything were confirmed.

FlyingSicilian wrote:
I believe under the temp agreement during the renovation and construction UNITED is going to allow some aircraft to use their gates (once they get the new C phase open later this month). Not 100% sure but I remember reading that as part of the plan somewhere. I would presume the E gates with the FIS access though they could tow to C north for departures.


Don't think phasing is settled at this point but I don't think there are any accommodation provisions in the agreement. C-North was supposed to be turned over to HAS after Terminal B Phase II opened, and demolition was supposed to start in short order. But the building hasn't even been designed yet (contract awarded this past December).
 
EddieDude
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:57 pm

FlyingSicilian wrote:
SkyTeam is growing at IAH it seems. I heard Delta and AeroMexico were thinking of some growth also.

Oh, what have you heard? New flights from secondary Mexican cities to IAH nonstop done by AM Connect perhaps?

by738 wrote:
How bad is their service? Is Shanghai mot a heavily delayed hub? What are connections like with them?
I dont think I would be entertaining flying with them.

I flew PVG-ORD on MU last August in J on a DL SkyMiles award ticket. Boarding and departure were more or less on time, although we were bused to a remote stand. Lounges are btw dismal in PVG. The hard product on the 77Ws is state of the art and fully competitive. I noticed that FAs are a tad stingy with the bubbly, but if you ask they will serve. The IFE selection was more than ok. The food was not bad at all. My overall impression is that MU is in a process of improvement and standardization to become competitive. If the price is right, I would have no reservation of trying them again. As a side not, I did a couple of widebody domestic flights on CA (A332 in Y and 789 in Y+) and they were very, very solid. Perhaps in the end it is a matter of reputation and perception?
Upcoming S4 0221 LIS-PDL A310-300!!!
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:07 pm

thomasphoto60 wrote:
toxtethogrady wrote:
The difference between IAH and DFW seems to be that DFW has an aggressive hub carrier that has added its own international spokes, thus limiting the ability of foreign flag carriers to come into the market and be profitable. IAH is the reverse, as the foreign carriers move into the market first, leaving United little room to start their own services.


Agreed, though UA (and CO) shows little interest in expanding IAH on the int'l front, save for Latin America.

It pains me see UA not be aggressive in expansion at IAH. The domestic network is a shell of its former self with the cuts to the regional Texas and SE USA cities, as well as pruning to the overall domestic network. I know Houston isn't as ideal as ORD or DEN in geography for a midcon connecting hub; but it is definitely great in the winter for when DEN and/or ORD get hammered by snow, but there hasn't been any change in winter seasonal connecting flows on UA in response to the weather that DEN and ORD get since the merger. I believe UA is actually scared of its vulnerability in Houston due to the fact that they are squatting on their gates in terminal A to the bare minimum flights per day per gate according to their lease with HAS. Those 3 gates would be ripe for NK to come in and grow even more, or even just organic growth from the other legacies. We've also had a net loss in international destinations served by UA, we've lost CDG, LOS, and multiple Mexico cities, and got MUC (which is on life support), Sat-only HAV (which you still need permission to go to) and SCL after the merger. Yeah I know oil is down, but that still doesn't negate the asset that is a good weather midcon hub with little-to-no airspace congestion.

And before I get flamed, yes, I am a Houston (and UA) fanboy who is butt-hurt but the cut backs in UA service by them becoming a virtual airline on the international routes from IAH. Totally full and oversold flights that leaves room for more frequency or even service to more cities is just letting the low hanging fruit rot on the tree.

I think a 100 seat aircraft would see a revitalization of the IAH hub, but that's a different thread.

BTW, what is with the recent Skyteam push into IAH? First KE and now MU as well as some increases in AM service. Is DL planning some kind of RDU/BOS-esque operation in Houston?
Eat 'em up Kats!
 
hibtastic
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Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:30 pm

EddieDude wrote:
I flew PVG-ORD on MU last August in J on a DL SkyMiles award ticket. Boarding and departure were more or less on time, although we were bused to a remote stand. Lounges are btw dismal in PVG. The hard product on the 77Ws is state of the art and fully competitive. I noticed that FAs are a tad stingy with the bubbly, but if you ask they will serve. The IFE selection was more than ok. The food was not bad at all. My overall impression is that MU is in a process of improvement and standardization to become competitive. If the price is right, I would have no reservation of trying them again. As a side not, I did a couple of widebody domestic flights on CA (A332 in Y and 789 in Y+) and they were very, very solid. Perhaps in the end it is a matter of reputation and perception?


Good to hear. The 787 and A350 joining their fleet should help in solidifying the product.

I must say I am looking forward to hearing if these MU expansion rumours come to fruition - particularly the rumoured EDI service. We have been seeking a Chinese carrier for some time.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4698
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:16 am

TWA772LR wrote:
thomasphoto60 wrote:
toxtethogrady wrote:
The difference between IAH and DFW seems to be that DFW has an aggressive hub carrier that has added its own international spokes, thus limiting the ability of foreign flag carriers to come into the market and be profitable. IAH is the reverse, as the foreign carriers move into the market first, leaving United little room to start their own services.


Agreed, though UA (and CO) shows little interest in expanding IAH on the int'l front, save for Latin America.

It pains me see UA not be aggressive in expansion at IAH. The domestic network is a shell of its former self with the cuts to the regional Texas and SE USA cities, as well as pruning to the overall domestic network. I know Houston isn't as ideal as ORD or DEN in geography for a midcon connecting hub; but it is definitely great in the winter for when DEN and/or ORD get hammered by snow, but there hasn't been any change in winter seasonal connecting flows on UA in response to the weather that DEN and ORD get since the merger. I believe UA is actually scared of its vulnerability in Houston due to the fact that they are squatting on their gates in terminal A to the bare minimum flights per day per gate according to their lease with HAS. Those 3 gates would be ripe for NK to come in and grow even more, or even just organic growth from the other legacies. We've also had a net loss in international destinations served by UA, we've lost CDG, LOS, and multiple Mexico cities, and got MUC (which is on life support), Sat-only HAV (which you still need permission to go to) and SCL after the merger. Yeah I know oil is down, but that still doesn't negate the asset that is a good weather midcon hub with little-to-no airspace congestion.

And before I get flamed, yes, I am a Houston (and UA) fanboy who is butt-hurt but the cut backs in UA service by them becoming a virtual airline on the international routes from IAH. Totally full and oversold flights that leaves room for more frequency or even service to more cities is just letting the low hanging fruit rot on the tree.

I think a 100 seat aircraft would see a revitalization of the IAH hub, but that's a different thread.

BTW, what is with the recent Skyteam push into IAH? First KE and now MU as well as some increases in AM service. Is DL planning some kind of RDU/BOS-esque operation in Houston?


Its just a matter of being real about it.

You have to understand that IAH is far smaller than DFW, ORD, DEN, and ATL in domestic O&D. There simply isnt the demand for domestic traffic those other hubs have. Of UA's hubs, IAH is the smallest in terms of overall O&D (assuming IAD is counted as DC and not an isolated airport). IAH obviously has a lot more international O&D than DEN does, but it falls way short of DEN in domestic O&D.

It also does not have as good of a geography as DEN or ORD to be a domestic hub. Its not bad geography for domestic traffic like MIA, but its not ideal either.

So what position does that leave UA in for expansion? Its two pronged IMO. The first is that IAH has the best geography of all the UA hubs to serve Latin America. IAH-Latin America is also a massive O&D market. Thats why IAH-Latin America has been a slam dunk for UA and CO. The second is that while IAH may not be as big to some of the other, markets like IAH-LEX/DSM/CHS/GSP/CAE are VERY high fare from an O&D perspective. UA harnesses that by only offering 1-2x daily flights to these markets instead of flooding capacity. As it is right now, only GSO and DAY are really missing from IAH's domestic network. CID and PIA couldn't work.

Further to the point of domestic traffic, since DEN and ORD are bigger domestic O&D markets and have better geography than IAH, it makes far more sense to push connecting traffic that way. IAH is service is quite O&D centric for a hub.

In regards to international traffic, why would UA fly IAH-PVG? It doesn't make sense for them when they have SFO and ORD to cover connections and LAX and EWR to cover O&D. IAH-PVG is a good sized market, but with the extra cash it takes to fly a longer route why mess with what has been proven to work for years. Id love UA to expand in Asia from IAH, but it won't happen.

For Europe, MUC brings nothing substantial to the table from IAH. Id terminate it tomorrow and use that plane for something else. If I was going to keep it at IAH, BRU makes more sense because of African connections.

To our economy, until oil is stable at $60, dont look for UA to expand in any way shape or form.
It is what it is...
 
DaufuskieGuy
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:35 pm

Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:43 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
You have to understand that IAH is far smaller than DFW, ORD, DEN, and ATL in domestic O&D. There simply isnt the demand for domestic traffic those other hubs have. Of UA's hubs, IAH is the smallest in terms of overall O&D (assuming IAD is counted as DC and not an isolated airport). IAH obviously has a lot more international O&D than DEN does, but it falls way short of DEN in domestic O&D.



Given that IAH is similar in size if not larger than these other destinations, I'm wondering their O&D numbers are lower. Particularly IAD which has far fewer flights.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 4891
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:55 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
thomasphoto60 wrote:

Agreed, though UA (and CO) shows little interest in expanding IAH on the int'l front, save for Latin America.

It pains me see UA not be aggressive in expansion at IAH. The domestic network is a shell of its former self with the cuts to the regional Texas and SE USA cities, as well as pruning to the overall domestic network. I know Houston isn't as ideal as ORD or DEN in geography for a midcon connecting hub; but it is definitely great in the winter for when DEN and/or ORD get hammered by snow, but there hasn't been any change in winter seasonal connecting flows on UA in response to the weather that DEN and ORD get since the merger. I believe UA is actually scared of its vulnerability in Houston due to the fact that they are squatting on their gates in terminal A to the bare minimum flights per day per gate according to their lease with HAS. Those 3 gates would be ripe for NK to come in and grow even more, or even just organic growth from the other legacies. We've also had a net loss in international destinations served by UA, we've lost CDG, LOS, and multiple Mexico cities, and got MUC (which is on life support), Sat-only HAV (which you still need permission to go to) and SCL after the merger. Yeah I know oil is down, but that still doesn't negate the asset that is a good weather midcon hub with little-to-no airspace congestion.

And before I get flamed, yes, I am a Houston (and UA) fanboy who is butt-hurt but the cut backs in UA service by them becoming a virtual airline on the international routes from IAH. Totally full and oversold flights that leaves room for more frequency or even service to more cities is just letting the low hanging fruit rot on the tree.

I think a 100 seat aircraft would see a revitalization of the IAH hub, but that's a different thread.

BTW, what is with the recent Skyteam push into IAH? First KE and now MU as well as some increases in AM service. Is DL planning some kind of RDU/BOS-esque operation in Houston?


Its just a matter of being real about it.

You have to understand that IAH is far smaller than DFW, ORD, DEN, and ATL in domestic O&D. There simply isnt the demand for domestic traffic those other hubs have. Of UA's hubs, IAH is the smallest in terms of overall O&D (assuming IAD is counted as DC and not an isolated airport). IAH obviously has a lot more international O&D than DEN does, but it falls way short of DEN in domestic O&D.

It also does not have as good of a geography as DEN or ORD to be a domestic hub. Its not bad geography for domestic traffic like MIA, but its not ideal either.

So what position does that leave UA in for expansion? Its two pronged IMO. The first is that IAH has the best geography of all the UA hubs to serve Latin America. IAH-Latin America is also a massive O&D market. Thats why IAH-Latin America has been a slam dunk for UA and CO. The second is that while IAH may not be as big to some of the other, markets like IAH-LEX/DSM/CHS/GSP/CAE are VERY high fare from an O&D perspective. UA harnesses that by only offering 1-2x daily flights to these markets instead of flooding capacity. As it is right now, only GSO and DAY are really missing from IAH's domestic network. CID and PIA couldn't work.

Further to the point of domestic traffic, since DEN and ORD are bigger domestic O&D markets and have better geography than IAH, it makes far more sense to push connecting traffic that way. IAH is service is quite O&D centric for a hub.

In regards to international traffic, why would UA fly IAH-PVG? It doesn't make sense for them when they have SFO and ORD to cover connections and LAX and EWR to cover O&D. IAH-PVG is a good sized market, but with the extra cash it takes to fly a longer route why mess with what has been proven to work for years. Id love UA to expand in Asia from IAH, but it won't happen.

For Europe, MUC brings nothing substantial to the table from IAH. Id terminate it tomorrow and use that plane for something else. If I was going to keep it at IAH, BRU makes more sense because of African connections.

To our economy, until oil is stable at $60, dont look for UA to expand in any way shape or form.

I totally understand and respect your posts. You are one of the more level-headed IAH fanboys. I just wanted to get on the soap box because I grew up in Houston and it tugs at the heart strings to not see it the way it used to be.

I understand the caveat for the international estinations, but with the massive Star hubs (Beijing and Seoul mostly) and their feed, why wouldn't UA give those a shot? I'm willing to bet that UA could kick KE out of IAH if they really wanted to, but that goes back to lower hanging fruit elsewhere in the system, with EWR or ORD being the likely candidates for an ICN service, which is another thread for another day.

Lastly, when CO announced IAH-AKL, everyone on a.net said it wouldn't work. But now NZ is going gangbusters on it and a.net welcomed it with open arms when NZ launched. Why was that the sentiment?
Eat 'em up Kats!
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4698
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:51 am

TWA772LR wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
It pains me see UA not be aggressive in expansion at IAH. The domestic network is a shell of its former self with the cuts to the regional Texas and SE USA cities, as well as pruning to the overall domestic network. I know Houston isn't as ideal as ORD or DEN in geography for a midcon connecting hub; but it is definitely great in the winter for when DEN and/or ORD get hammered by snow, but there hasn't been any change in winter seasonal connecting flows on UA in response to the weather that DEN and ORD get since the merger. I believe UA is actually scared of its vulnerability in Houston due to the fact that they are squatting on their gates in terminal A to the bare minimum flights per day per gate according to their lease with HAS. Those 3 gates would be ripe for NK to come in and grow even more, or even just organic growth from the other legacies. We've also had a net loss in international destinations served by UA, we've lost CDG, LOS, and multiple Mexico cities, and got MUC (which is on life support), Sat-only HAV (which you still need permission to go to) and SCL after the merger. Yeah I know oil is down, but that still doesn't negate the asset that is a good weather midcon hub with little-to-no airspace congestion.

And before I get flamed, yes, I am a Houston (and UA) fanboy who is butt-hurt but the cut backs in UA service by them becoming a virtual airline on the international routes from IAH. Totally full and oversold flights that leaves room for more frequency or even service to more cities is just letting the low hanging fruit rot on the tree.

I think a 100 seat aircraft would see a revitalization of the IAH hub, but that's a different thread.

BTW, what is with the recent Skyteam push into IAH? First KE and now MU as well as some increases in AM service. Is DL planning some kind of RDU/BOS-esque operation in Houston?


Its just a matter of being real about it.

You have to understand that IAH is far smaller than DFW, ORD, DEN, and ATL in domestic O&D. There simply isnt the demand for domestic traffic those other hubs have. Of UA's hubs, IAH is the smallest in terms of overall O&D (assuming IAD is counted as DC and not an isolated airport). IAH obviously has a lot more international O&D than DEN does, but it falls way short of DEN in domestic O&D.

It also does not have as good of a geography as DEN or ORD to be a domestic hub. Its not bad geography for domestic traffic like MIA, but its not ideal either.

So what position does that leave UA in for expansion? Its two pronged IMO. The first is that IAH has the best geography of all the UA hubs to serve Latin America. IAH-Latin America is also a massive O&D market. Thats why IAH-Latin America has been a slam dunk for UA and CO. The second is that while IAH may not be as big to some of the other, markets like IAH-LEX/DSM/CHS/GSP/CAE are VERY high fare from an O&D perspective. UA harnesses that by only offering 1-2x daily flights to these markets instead of flooding capacity. As it is right now, only GSO and DAY are really missing from IAH's domestic network. CID and PIA couldn't work.

Further to the point of domestic traffic, since DEN and ORD are bigger domestic O&D markets and have better geography than IAH, it makes far more sense to push connecting traffic that way. IAH is service is quite O&D centric for a hub.

In regards to international traffic, why would UA fly IAH-PVG? It doesn't make sense for them when they have SFO and ORD to cover connections and LAX and EWR to cover O&D. IAH-PVG is a good sized market, but with the extra cash it takes to fly a longer route why mess with what has been proven to work for years. Id love UA to expand in Asia from IAH, but it won't happen.

For Europe, MUC brings nothing substantial to the table from IAH. Id terminate it tomorrow and use that plane for something else. If I was going to keep it at IAH, BRU makes more sense because of African connections.

To our economy, until oil is stable at $60, dont look for UA to expand in any way shape or form.

I totally understand and respect your posts. You are one of the more level-headed IAH fanboys. I just wanted to get on the soap box because I grew up in Houston and it tugs at the heart strings to not see it the way it used to be.

I understand the caveat for the international estinations, but with the massive Star hubs (Beijing and Seoul mostly) and their feed, why wouldn't UA give those a shot? I'm willing to bet that UA could kick KE out of IAH if they really wanted to, but that goes back to lower hanging fruit elsewhere in the system, with EWR or ORD being the likely candidates for an ICN service, which is another thread for another day.

Lastly, when CO announced IAH-AKL, everyone on a.net said it wouldn't work. But now NZ is going gangbusters on it and a.net welcomed it with open arms when NZ launched. Why was that the sentiment?


I think it has to do with what works for one airline may not work for another in regards to IAH-AKL. I honestly dont think UA would have dont well flying it. NZ does do very well with it though. Its because a route like AKL-IAH is much more critical to the NZ route network than it would be to UA. To UA, its just another pacific route. To NZ, its the sole connection to Oceana that isnt on the West Coast.

Same goes for KE. I actually dont think UA could kick KE out of IAH. Only OZ would be able to and they arent in expansion mode. The reason I think that is because UA doesn't even do that well on SFO-ICN. Its pretty well known as the route thats super easy to upgrade on.

Take a look at all of UA's long haul flights out of IAH sans Latin America. They all have a very specific purpose except for MUC:

NRT: UA's sole flight to Asia. Super high fares/important connector to NH and other star partners. With UA's Latin America network out of IAH and Japan being the single largest source of Asia-Latin America traffic, this one has been a slam dunk since the day it operated.
LHR: High fares and large market. This one needs no explanation.
AMS: High fares and large market. It connects two massive global oil hubs.
FRA: Connecting the largest European star hub with IAH. Not a massive O&D market per se, but very necessary for connections. The market does have high fares.
MUC: Brings nothing to the table that FRA doesn't. Honestly, I think the plane could be better used somewhere else. Not saying UA cant get a profit in summer, but I would consider ZRH or BRU. None of the above are large markets but the later two have a large connecting back of destinations LH doesn't offer or has limited amounts of.

If UA is going to expand, first oil has to rise. Its true Houston's economy is far more diverse than it used to be, but oil is still the driver of the high fare business traffic.
It is what it is...
 
IAHflyer97
Posts: 732
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: China Eastern to start PVG-IAH

Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:09 pm

If I I may add my 2 cents...

IF... What is being said about SkyTeam, DL and AM is true, then I think I can tell what's going on.

In an effort to get ahead of a future oil spike, SkyTeam is playing route network chess to establish themselves before demand strikes again. That way, while UA is playing the reactionary strategy and adding based on the present, SkyTeam is fighting while they can to get as far ahead as possible.

Which tells me that MAYBE the airlines are anticipating something to happen within the next year or two that could yield some nice $$$.

But that's just my thought. Take it as you will.
A man is only as big as the amount of strings on his guitar.

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