NZ announced that on Dec 9, it will add a fifth weekly flight to EZE. Its 4th weekly flight, scheduled to return on Dec 11, will now begin on Nov. 6, operated with 789.

NZ030 AKL2015 – 1545EZE 789 x24
NZ031 EZE0005 – 0520+1AKL 789 x35

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... e-in-nw17/

And NZ still hasn't found an adequate feeder at EZE. This flight could run daily year-round...

Well, I am certain that NZ knows one or two things about its business; they have a codeshare/feedier agreement with AR that seems to be working fine. Would it not be working by now, they'd have taken some action, don't you think? Care to enlight us about the "inadequacies"?

dcajet wrote:

Well, I am certain that NZ knows one or two things about its business; they have a codeshare/feedier agreement with AR that seems to be working fine. Would it not be working by now, they'd have taken some action, don't you think? Care to enlight us about the "inadequacies"?

NZ's agreement is rather a political arrangement. Try looking for a round-trip with a connection at EZE to any destination in South America.

Personally, it makes me very happy when south-to-south trans-oceanic flights are successful. Great going for NZ and EZE! I look forward to the time when this flight is year long and perhaps daily during the busy season.

Are these seasonal or permanent increases? Looks like the move to the 789 was a good idea.

Hope we see another route added to SA in the near term- LIM, or GIG perhaps. With LA launching MEL-SCL competition to this rig ion will only increase, NZ need to be bold.

C010T3 wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Well, I am certain that NZ knows one or two things about its business; they have a codeshare/feedier agreement with AR that seems to be working fine. Would it not be working by now, they'd have taken some action, don't you think? Care to enlight us about the "inadequacies"?

NZ's agreement is rather a political arrangement. Try looking for a round-trip with a connection at EZE to any destination in South America.

Political arrangement???? And why would NZ do that? To whom do they owe anything in Argentina? Sorry but don't be ridiculous.

Couple of points -

1. EZE is not a good place to connect to South America, except for Brazil, Uruguay and Paraguay. AR already covers that.

2. The flight caters mostly to the Argentina, NZ and Australia POS. Traffic to/from Brazil is not what makes or breaks this flight. It is just a nice add on, but it is not the driver for this operation.

dcajet wrote:

Political arrangement???? And why would NZ do that? To whom do they owe anything in Argentina? Sorry but don't be ridiculous.

Surely you're not oblivious to the political interference endemic to the Argentinian aviation sector.

adamblang wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Political arrangement???? And why would NZ do that? To whom do they owe anything in Argentina? Sorry but don't be ridiculous.

Surely you're not oblivious to the political interference endemic to the Argentinian aviation sector.

Am aware of the history of Aerolinias Argentinas but what am trying to figure out from your statement is what does this have to do with Air New Zealand or the country of New Zealand ? Whatever has happened in Argentinian aeropolitics in the last few decades have noting to do with ANZ. Selling AR to Iberia has nothing to do with ANZ. AR's unions having nothing to do with ANZ. So what is the AR to ANZ connection here ?

dcajet wrote:

NZ announced that on Dec 9, it will add a fifth weekly flight to EZE. Its 4th weekly flight, scheduled to return on Dec 11, will now begin on Nov. 6, operated with 789.

NZ030 AKL2015 – 1545EZE 789 x24
NZ031 EZE0005 – 0520+1AKL 789 x35

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... e-in-nw17/

Great news. So we now have:

LAN SYD-AKL-SCL Daily 787-9
LAN MEL-SCL 3 weekly starting in October 787-9
QF SYD-SCL 4 weekly 744 (5 during peak periods)
NZ AKL-EZE 5 weekly 787-9

That's a significant increase in options over the past 3 to 4 years!

adamblang wrote:

dcajet wrote:

Political arrangement???? And why would NZ do that? To whom do they owe anything in Argentina? Sorry but don't be ridiculous.

Surely you're not oblivious to the political interference endemic to the Argentinian aviation sector.

OMG!!! Argentinian politicians, I am sure as much as they would like to, have no saying on what Air New Zealand does, or what airline they choose as a codeshare partner.

It's ANZ we are talking about, not the "Argentinian aviation sector"!!

Since ANZ announced this route, the usual choir on here got bent out of shape about the sheer lunacy on ANZ's part to choose EZE as their South American gateway. Imagine that. LIM, BOG or even PTY all had better credentials, according to the CEOs on here. Then insult to injury was added when NZ chose AR to codeshare with. The madness of those kiwis... In any case, the choir on here condemned this flight to doom. And here we are; 15 months later, and the flight is doing fine, soon to be 5x week. So now it must be some political arrangement, surely.

Please!!!!

Long time dream to do an RTW entirely south of the Equator. I've done 7 RTWs, 5 entirely north of the Equator and 2 that dipped south to SYD with the balance of the routes in the northern hemisphere. Ah, maybe one day I'll be rich enough.

When NZ was in the process of introducing service, having AR as a partner enabled doors to be opened. Let's not forget how La Cámpora used to dominate most aspects of aviation in Argentina.
Considering that Argentina has been unable to liberalize its aviation sector even with Macri in power, I should expect that many hurdles are still in place for anyone doing business in Argentina.
My only issue with the whole thing is how NZ has not been able to secure feeders to the most obvious markets, which are GRU and GIG. It's a question of wasted opportunity.

Good to see.
I fall into the category of finding EZE to be a good option but would also like to see another port (if not 2 or 3 more) to really dominate the Asia/Australia/NZL - South America market.
EZE+LIM+GRU would cover things pretty well and would connect with possibly up to 10 Australian cities with a 1 stop in AKL. Could also connect with 7 Asia cities (SIN/DPS/HKG/SGN/NRT/KIX/PVG and possibly more in future not too mentioned code-shares).

Socrates17 wrote:

Long time dream to do an RTW entirely south of the Equator. I've done 7 RTWs, 5 entirely north of the Equator and 2 that dipped south to SYD with the balance of the routes in the northern hemisphere. Ah, maybe one day I'll be rich enough.

in my calcs this can be fine with Star alliance

NZ Akl EZE
(Overland for the fun of it)
SAA GRU - jNB
SAA JNB - PER
NZ PER - aKL

One world would Be LATAM/QaNTAS

Would love to do this too, with a small detour to Antarctica on a Qantas sight seeing tour
http://www.antarcticaflights.com.au



South Africa to Australia

Does NZ have to block off any seats, or restrict any cargo? Or can their 789 make AKL-EZE-AKL non-stop with a full load of passengers and cargo?

C010T3 wrote:

When NZ was in the process of introducing service, having AR as a partner enabled doors to be opened. Let's not forget how La Cámpora used to dominate most aspects of aviation in Argentina.
Considering that Argentina has been unable to liberalize its aviation sector even with Macri in power, I should expect that many hurdles are still in place for anyone doing business in Argentina.
My only issue with the whole thing is how NZ has not been able to secure feeders to the most obvious markets, which are GRU and GIG. It's a question of wasted opportunity.

Vivid imagination you have. I am sure you are familiar with the concept of bilaterals between countries. That is all NZ needed. Remember AR operated in NZ for 25+ years. Quid pro quo is the name of the game. No need to oil any wheels or make up stories.

I get that you are upset that NZ chose not to fly to Brazil (those cheeky kiwis!!!) But there is no need to come up with stories that put down New Zealand and Argentina to make you feel good. If your "obvious markets" were such, NZ (and QF before that, when flying to EZE) would have started flying there long time ago.

Fact is your "obvious markets" have been nothing short of a bloodshed for foreign operators for the past two years. Trash yields, downgauging equipment, cutting back services and/or leaving Brazil altogether. Don't see that happening in the rest of the neighborhood.

Lastly, ANZ is a business that seems to know a thing or two about running a very successful (and profitable) airline; I am sure they know what is a wasted opportunity and what isn't. Status quo (flying to EZE and using AR as a feeder) appears to suit them just fine.

Armaghman wrote:

in my calcs this can be fine with Star alliance

NZ Akl EZE
(Overland for the fun of it)
SAA GRU - jNB
SAA JNB - PER
NZ PER - aKL

EZE-GRU can be done with TK

C010T3 wrote:

When NZ was in the process of introducing service, having AR as a partner enabled doors to be opened. Let's not forget how La Cámpora used to dominate most aspects of aviation in Argentina.
Considering that Argentina has been unable to liberalize its aviation sector even with Macri in power, I should expect that many hurdles are still in place for anyone doing business in Argentina.
My only issue with the whole thing is how NZ has not been able to secure feeders to the most obvious markets, which are GRU and GIG. It's a question of wasted opportunity.

I'm really confused.

Yes, having AR as a partner probably opened a few doors, but that's the way of the world, it's why airlines have partners - LOL - and whether or not Argentina has been able to liberalise its air services is nothing to do with Air NZ.

And I can book AKL-EZE-GRU or GIG on the Air NZ website as a code share with AR. Both cities - GIG and GRU - also appear on the Air NZ route maps.

mariner

dcajet wrote:

I am sure you are familiar with the concept of bilaterals between countries. That is all NZ needed.

I'm very familiar with it. It's Argentina which has proven too many times that it isn't.

B752OS wrote:

Does NZ have to block off any seats, or restrict any cargo? Or can their 789 make AKL-EZE-AKL non-stop with a full load of passengers and cargo?

I don't think so. EZE-AKL is not an ultra long haul route, at only 6421 miles, per GCMap. It is the nature of the route, its remoteness with few and far in between diversion points that turn it into a unique operation.

C010T3 wrote:

I'm very familiar with it. It's Argentina which has proven too many times that it isn't.

No one claims it has been easy dealing with Argentina. This article from the the service was announced, lists some of the difficulties:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11541576

"Air NZ makes big leap into South America

Argentina lived up to its reputation as a notoriously difficult place to do business. The World Bank ease of doing business ranking for the past year puts the country in 121st place out of 189 countries (New Zealand is second) and for the airline, the masses of red tape took some getting used to.

Jones says Aerolineas' support has been crucial in helping Air New Zealand negotiate the bureaucracy in Argentina, where much commerce is still paper-based.

But it paid off. The Air NZ CEO said last month that the service has been profitable from Day One.

mariner

mariner wrote:

C010T3 wrote:

I'm very familiar with it. It's Argentina which has proven too many times that it isn't.

No one claims it has been easy dealing with Argentina. This article from the the service was announced, lists some of the difficulties:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11541576

"Air NZ makes big leap into South America

Argentina lived up to its reputation as a notoriously difficult place to do business. The World Bank ease of doing business ranking for the past year puts the country in 121st place out of 189 countries (New Zealand is second) and for the airline, the masses of red tape took some getting used to.

Jones says Aerolineas' support has been crucial in helping Air New Zealand negotiate the bureaucracy in Argentina, where much commerce is still paper-based.

But it paid off. The Air NZ CEO said last month that the service has been profitable from Day One.

mariner

It was also one of the key reason that QF pulled out of EZE and moved their services to SCL because Argentina would not allow codeshares with LAN to provide feed. Good on NZ for making EZE work despite the difficulties though, it is a much needed connection in the Southern Hemisphere!

winGl3t wrote:

Armaghman wrote:

in my calcs this can be fine with Star alliance

NZ Akl EZE
(Overland for the fun of it)
SAA GRU - jNB
SAA JNB - PER
NZ PER - aKL

EZE-GRU can be done with TK

TK has 5th Freedom rights on that route? Going out tonight to buy some lottery tickets! (I'm a *A guy since that's where all my miles are, although I'd love to fly LATAM were that not the case.)

georgiabill wrote:

I hope NZ management considers starting flights from AKL-LIM-AKL 3 or 4 times weekly. This flight could connect with AV's hub in LIM for destinations in northern South America, Central America and the Caribbean.

Personally I doubt they will add another city atleast until EZE is daily in the summer peak, so it could happen but not for a while I'd say 3-4 years. Good to see EZE is doing well though.

Socrates17 wrote:

TK has 5th Freedom rights on that route? Going out tonight to buy some lottery tickets! (I'm a *A guy since that's where all my miles are, although I'd love to fly LATAM were that not the case.)

Yes, 5x week IST-GRU-EZE with the 77W. You also have 5th freedom (albeit not *A) on QR and EK, daily, both with the 77W.

And if you can wait, ET should be extending its ABB-GRU flight to EZE from Dec. onwards. There you have another *A carrier on the route. Service was announced last week, no exact date given.

mariner wrote:

And I can book AKL-EZE-GRU or GIG on the Air NZ website as a code share with AR. Both cities - GIG and GRU - also appear on the Air NZ route maps.

Yes, you can, but try only using AR's feeders. Most times, you cannot even find a connecting flight or something via AEP.

That's the reason the partnership is a charade. NZ doesn't really gain much from it, apart from goodwill from the bureaucrats.

B752OS wrote:

Does NZ have to block off any seats, or restrict any cargo? Or can their 789 make AKL-EZE-AKL non-stop with a full load of passengers and cargo?

Its only an 10-11hour flight, which is within an decent range for the 789. Before that it was an 77E.

ZK-NBT wrote:

georgiabill wrote:

I hope NZ management considers starting flights from AKL-LIM-AKL 3 or 4 times weekly. This flight could connect with AV's hub in LIM for destinations in northern South America, Central America and the Caribbean.

Personally I doubt they will add another city atleast until EZE is daily in the summer peak, so it could happen but not for a while I'd say 3-4 years. Good to see EZE is doing well though.

Will this use up their next two 789 delivered? Where are they headed? I believe they are in a different config, will they displace 772 on some routes? Curious to see where they are deployed or will NZ have excess capacity?

smi0006 wrote:

Will this use up their next two 789 delivered? Where are they headed? I believe they are in a different config, will they displace 772 on some routes? Curious to see where they are deployed or will NZ have excess capacity?

1x extra weekly service would only use up around 0.20 of an 789s week. More likely that there will be some slack in the schedule by then as all the 77W will be back in service after the refits.

The additional 2x 789s arriving this year could be used on AKL-YVR allowing the route to going year round daily, which would explain why these two 789s will have additional J and PE seats. But then they would free up 7x weekly slots with the 772 over the peak summer period, which could allow another route or two?

zkncj wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

Will this use up their next two 789 delivered? Where are they headed? I believe they are in a different config, will they displace 772 on some routes? Curious to see where they are deployed or will NZ have excess capacity?

1x extra weekly service would only use up around 0.20 of an 789s week. More likely that there will be some slack in the schedule by then as all the 77W will be back in service after the refits.

The additional 2x 789s arriving this year could be used on AKL-YVR allowing the route to going year round daily, which would explain why these two 789s will have additional J and PE seats. But then they would free up 7x weekly slots with the 77E over the peak summer period, which could allow another route or two?

In saying that the 77E fleet is fast becoming the new 763 on the Tasman/Pacific, and will probably end up with the same fate as the 763s did which was being run until they fail to bits. Freeing up an 77E from YVR would allow an additional 4-5 Tasman/Pacific sectors to be operated a day by 77E.

In saying that the 77E fleet is fast becoming the new 763 on the Tasman/Pacific, and will probably end up with the same fate as the 763s did which was being run until they fail to bits. Freeing up an 77E from YVR would allow an additional 4-5 Tasman/Pacific sectors to be operated a day by 77E.

zkncj wrote:

B752OS wrote:

Does NZ have to block off any seats, or restrict any cargo? Or can their 789 make AKL-EZE-AKL non-stop with a full load of passengers and cargo?

Its only an 10-11hour flight, which is within an decent range for the 789. Before that it was an 77E.

EZE-AKL Is blocked at 13.30 or so, still would carry a pretty good load maybe minus a little freight in that configuration.

smi0006 wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

georgiabill wrote:

I hope NZ management considers starting flights from AKL-LIM-AKL 3 or 4 times weekly. This flight could connect with AV's hub in LIM for destinations in northern South America, Central America and the Caribbean.

Personally I doubt they will add another city atleast until EZE is daily in the summer peak, so it could happen but not for a while I'd say 3-4 years. Good to see EZE is doing well though.

Will this use up their next two 789 delivered? Where are they headed? I believe they are in a different config, will they displace 772 on some routes? Curious to see where they are deployed or will NZ have excess capacity?

No idea where the next 2 789's are going yet. Personally I think maybe replace the 77E to YVR with the 77E going elsewhere. I think we will find out fairly soon. They won't have excess capacity though, they will send the new freed up aircraft somewhere, they usually announce new destinations well in advance like 11/12 months so I feel somewhere new is unlikely this year. Probably increase frequencies to existing destinations.

However the 1 additional EZE flight could almost be catered for with the existing fleet.

They won't run them specifically on the Tasman/PI in the peak season, but yes you will likely see more rotations between long hauls. I do think you could see some shuffling with 77E's on some slightly shorter routes where fuel burn is lower like PER/HNL with the 789's off those routes doing more PVG/NRT/HND maybe extra HKG if they can get slots.

Socrates17 wrote:

Long time dream to do an RTW entirely south of the Equator. I've done 7 RTWs, 5 entirely north of the Equator and 2 that dipped south to SYD with the balance of the routes in the northern hemisphere. Ah, maybe one day I'll be rich enough.

Just picking BBAA as a starting point, you can do a Oneworld Explorer ticket and Use LA for EZE-SCL-AKL, QF for AKL-SYD-JNB. JJ for JNB-GRU-EZE

zkncj wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

Will this use up their next two 789 delivered? Where are they headed? I believe they are in a different config, will they displace 772 on some routes? Curious to see where they are deployed or will NZ have excess capacity?

1x extra weekly service would only use up around 0.20 of an 789s week. More likely that there will be some slack in the schedule by then as all the 77W will be back in service after the refits.

The additional 2x 789s arriving this year could be used on AKL-YVR allowing the route to going year round daily, which would explain why these two 789s will have additional J and PE seats. But then they would free up 7x weekly slots with the 772 over the peak summer period, which could allow another route or two?

Sorry forgive my lack of clarity, understood 2 extra sesonal routes could absorb the capacity.

YVR makes sense 7 weekly. Are the 772 used to NRT and HKG?

Seems like this discussion was occurring just before EZE & IAH started. Perhaps we will see a new route announcement starting DEC to capture summer peak.

C010T3 wrote:

mariner wrote:

And I can book AKL-EZE-GRU or GIG on the Air NZ website as a code share with AR. Both cities - GIG and GRU - also appear on the Air NZ route maps.

Yes, you can, but try only using AR's feeders. Most times, you cannot even find a connecting flight or something via AEP.

That's the reason the partnership is a charade. NZ doesn't really gain much from it, apart from goodwill from the bureaucrats.

In a nutshell: AR's feed at EZE sucks. NZ could make a combination like:

AKL-EZE-GRU 3x weekly
AKL-EZE-GIG 2x weekly

(with 5th freedom rights like EK, QR and TK have)

I'm sure it would fill those seats nicely and get some extra cash on those 5th freedom rights. And when operating daily to South America perhaps make the GRU terminator 4x weekly and GIG 3x weekly.

[quote="ZK-NBT]EZE-AKL Is blocked at 13.30 or so, still would carry a pretty good load maybe minus a little freight in that configuration.[quote]

The 789 EZE-AKL can carry 42.5t at about a 250t TOW. something less than the 254t MTOW . Quite a bit of unused capacity.

Yes, 5x week IST-GRU-EZE with the 77W. You also have 5th freedom (albeit not *A) on QR and EK, daily, both with the 77W.

And if you can wait, ET should be extending its ABB-GRU flight to EZE from Dec. onwards. There you have another *A carrier on the route. Service was announced last week, no exact date given.[/quote]


Isn't EK's flight GIG-EZE? I thought GRU was a dead-end flight for EK. I have flown EZE-GRU and v.v. service with both TK and QR... but the times are not particularly convenient. I have also flown the GIG-EZE with EK.

TYCOON wrote:

Yes, 5x week IST-GRU-EZE with the 77W. You also have 5th freedom (albeit not *A) on QR and EK, daily, both with the 77W.

And if you can wait, ET should be extending its ABB-GRU flight to EZE from Dec. onwards. There you have another *A carrier on the route. Service was announced last week, no exact date given.

Isn't EK's flight GIG-EZE? I thought GRU was a dead-end flight for EK. I have flown EZE-GRU and v.v. service with both TK and QR... but the times are not particularly convenient. I have also flown the GIG-EZE with EK.[/quote]

Yes it is:

GIG-EZE - EK
GRU-EZE - TK/QR

C010T3 wrote:

mariner wrote:

And I can book AKL-EZE-GRU or GIG on the Air NZ website as a code share with AR. Both cities - GIG and GRU - also appear on the Air NZ route maps.

Yes, you can, but try only using AR's feeders. Most times, you cannot even find a connecting flight or something via AEP.

That's the reason the partnership is a charade. NZ doesn't really gain much from it, apart from goodwill from the bureaucrats.

The AR-NZ relationship is not a broad code sharing agreement. Rather, it is a limited one, where NZ puts its code on selected flights to points in Brazil and back and AR puts its code on the NZ flights to AKL and then connections to selected points in Australia. That is its extent. Full stop.

Again, I do not understand why you get bent out of shape for something that only exists in your imagination. There are no codeshare flights on either airline beyond the ones already mentioned. And why would you want to change planes @ AEP when you can do it @ EZE?

The whole other lot, painting NZ as a hostage/victim to the evil bureaucrats in some obscure Ministry in Buenos Aires is so laughable that makes it hard to take you seriously. NZ begs to differ with you by adding another frequency.

dcajet wrote:

Fact is your "obvious markets" have been nothing short of a bloodshed for foreign operators for the past two years. Trash yields, downgauging equipment, cutting back services and/or leaving Brazil altogether. Don't see that happening in the rest of the neighborhood.

You just forgot to mention "zika virus". Oh.. I forgot.. it is SO last year, right?

The rest of the neighborhood - Chile, Colombia, Peru - are doing quite fine. The other rest of the neighborhood - Argentina - had already been having their service cut and adjusted a long time ago. Unfortunately Argentina have not been able to grow as much as it could since 2000.
This bloodshed that you mention in Brazil were the companies cutting the excess service they provided when Brazil had lots of people traveling (2010-2015).
And right now here comes AF / TP / EK upgauging or increasing their services / fleet. So they are adjusting accordingly the demand which they are predicting that will increase in the long run.

Actuallly, does these trans south pacific ocean flights have significantly better yield than those crossing the north pacific? As when seaarching flights from points in Asia to points in South America, it is almost always cheaper to go via North Pacific or Atlantic even when it's shorter to fly via south pacific

C010T3 wrote:

mariner wrote:

And I can book AKL-EZE-GRU or GIG on the Air NZ website as a code share with AR. Both cities - GIG and GRU - also appear on the Air NZ route maps.

Yes, you can, but try only using AR's feeders. .

Well, of course. There are upsides and downsides to choosing EZE, just as there would have been downsides and upsides to choosing anywhere else in South America.

AF086 wrote:

In a nutshell: AR's feed at EZE sucks. NZ could make a combination like:

AKL-EZE-GRU 3x weekly
AKL-EZE-GIG 2x weekly

(with 5th freedom rights like EK, QR and TK have)

I'm sure it would fill those seats nicely and get some extra cash on those 5th freedom rights. And when operating daily to South America perhaps make the GRU terminator 4x weekly and GIG 3x weekly.

Sorry, not going to happen. With the exception of AKL-LAX-LHR, Air NZ has an embargo on two sector flights. And since AKL-EZE is profitable s it is, I can't think why a.netters want to change it.

C010T3 wrote:

And NZ still hasn't found an adequate feeder at EZE. This flight could run daily year-round...

It will eventually. NZ is building up the service incrementally. And Buenos Aires/EZE (just behind Santiago/SCL) is one of the closest major cities and ports to New Zealand in South America. It also provides a direct line of flight to GRU and GIG. Coming in from the Antarctic, EZE (along with SCL) provides the best entry point to visitors from Australia/New Zealand.

Also, just checked on NZ's website on bookings to other South American cities...

AR code-shares on flights between EZE and GRU, GIG, SCL, MVD and LIM but surprisingly (to me anyway) there are also code-shares with AC: between SCL-EZE; TK between GRU-EZE; AV between LIM-EZE, and; LA between GIG-EXE.