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TranscendZac
Posts: 26
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:59 pm

I still believe there is a place for the A380. The 747-8 can't compete and the 779 is still substantially smaller than the A380 capacity-wise.
Zac
 
jumbojet
Posts: 1938
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:05 pm

TranscendZac wrote:
I still believe there is a place for the A380. The 747-8 can't compete and the 779 is still substantially smaller than the A380 capacity-wise.


Your right, there is as place for the A380, its called the desert. Nobody wants it no matter how many people it holds. In fact the more people airbus tries to cram onto the A380, it actually makes it less attractive. Airlines want to fly routes with more frequency, not one flight a day between A&B with 1000 people crammed on it. Airbus just doesn't get that. Emirates will buy this A380-plus I am sure but that's about it.

As for the 748, lest not forget that in total, between all 747 derivatives, there have been more than 1000 sold. A380 sales, not sure but its nowhere near that #.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:07 pm

787fan8 wrote:
I really don't see this going through at all.

Well, I am not so confident as well. It simply sounds too easy, modify the front stairway, add winglets and suddenly the orders start kicking off again?

GCT64 wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
If I am correct, no airline is currently using the 380 at their full capacity.
No one will be impressed by the new additional 50 seats lor.


Every time I have ever been on a BA A380 it has been full (multiple LHR-HKG-LHR, SFO-LHR), I know that doesn't tell us about yield but the flights were certainly full.

The same whenever I took LH's or TG's A380s (which was during the summer season). There are definitely times where they could make use out of more seats in their A380s.
 
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MSPSXMFLIER
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:11 pm

It's just a lot of verbal tap dancing from Airbus.....this proposal will never come to pass. The A380 is an incredible aircraft, but it's a niche product and sales of it have stalled out just as they have for Boeing's 747-8. I'm betting that by the end of 2020, Boeing shuts down that line and Airbus does the same for the A380 by 2025.
 
StTim
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:21 pm

jumbojet wrote:
TranscendZac wrote:
I still believe there is a place for the A380. The 747-8 can't compete and the 779 is still substantially smaller than the A380 capacity-wise.


Your right, there is as place for the A380, its called the desert. Nobody wants it no matter how many people it holds. In fact the more people airbus tries to cram onto the A380, it actually makes it less attractive. Airlines want to fly routes with more frequency, not one flight a day between A&B with 1000 people crammed on it. Airbus just doesn't get that. Emirates will buy this A380-plus I am sure but that's about it.

As for the 748, lest not forget that in total, between all 747 derivatives, there have been more than 1000 sold. A380 sales, not sure but its nowhere near that #.


Wow - the love and hatred on here for certain types always astounds me.
 
kurtverbose
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:08 pm

787fan8 wrote:
I really don't see this going through at all.


I think it will do if there are more orders. Question is - will there be more orders?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:21 pm

If Airbus can fudge the books just a bit, get some improvements to CASM, or for some of us some improvements in CASM to their, in effect, economy plus, add an airport or two now and again, then the program can limp along at low production rates. And make a quasi-profit. This would be good. They likely will have an occasional great year.

Res P2P versus Hub. Metaphorical terms which help to describe reality, but are not reality. The reality is that there are far fewer 2 stops, a lot of 1 stops, and plethora no stops, and mercifully fewer 3 stops. A trend that will only continue.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Whalejet
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:25 pm

What is the market here? Does EK need sardine 380s when their highest capacity is 615 on an insane route? (DXB-LHR). Are they trying to do 747-400D?
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:27 pm

Whalejet wrote:
What is the market here? Does EK need sardine 380s when their highest capacity is 615 on an insane route? (DXB-LHR). Are they trying to do 747-400D?


If Emirates wanted a "sardine" A380 they would have started retrofitting the fleet with 11-abreast cabins. The removal of the giant staircase allows a significant amount of additional seats without compromising comfort.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:29 pm

StTim wrote:
Wow - the love and hatred on here for certain types always astounds me.


Image
Murphy is an optimist
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:32 pm

[On 787 versus A380 sales]

jumbojet wrote:
its sales that count the most at the end of the day. Nobody can deny that.


Ooh, ooh, an open goal. Let me be the one to kick it...

Yes, I can - I can deny it. Since it's totally and utterly irrelevant!

It's like saying "there's no point Mercedes building trucks since there are so few of them - they should just stick to building cars"

Bollocks!
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:48 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
[On 787 versus A380 sales]

jumbojet wrote:
its sales that count the most at the end of the day. Nobody can deny that.


Ooh, ooh, an open goal. Let me be the one to kick it...

Yes, I can - I can deny it. Since it's totally and utterly irrelevant!

It's like saying "there's no point Mercedes building trucks since there are so few of them - they should just stick to building cars"

Bollocks!


Things in the mirror may appear smaller than they are:
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten ... ahrzeugen/

Then it is profits _in the long run_ that count not sales as such or some shortterm profit jackpot.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Bald1983
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:00 pm

Strato2 wrote:
rotating14 wrote:
His point was that Boeing bet on more point to point travel with the 787. Airbus thought that the major hubs would be too congested with limited gate space, and with that, the A380 would alleviate this dilemma. But Boeing’s bet, albeit expensive, lengthy and problematic at times, seems to have paid off. One isn't better than the other, one just beat the other to the punch.


But has it? Can you show how many new p2p routes has the 787 opened? I think Boeing was wrong. The 787 is mostly plying exactly the same routes as planes before it.


Denver Tokyo, UAL. San Francisco to secondary cities in China UAL. Singapore to San Francisco, UAL. Auckland to Houston, Air New Zealand. San Francisco to Tel Aviv, United Airlines. Perth to London, non-stop, Qantas. To name a few.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:01 pm

No one ever hs the a380 seating maxed out. Who needs 50 more seats?
 
Planesmart
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:47 pm

32andBelow wrote:
No one ever hs the a380 seating maxed out. Who needs 50 more seats?

You've clearly never flown with EK, BA and LH.
 
parapente
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:58 pm

I have and you are right.I think 50 more seats will go down well with most operators.Emirates particularly as they are about to introduce space heavy premium class seats but I am sure they would like to keep their economy count the same.
In terms of CASM yes it is real.To say it's not 'cos nobody will sit in them' could be just as easily (and falsely) aimed at say the 787 going from 8 abreast to 9.The improved CASM was true as these seats are (on the whole) filled.
 
Aither
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:11 pm

racercoup wrote:
The Dreamliner is responsible for 130 new p2p routes.


A330s have opened more routes in the last 5 years. It's just called "market growth"...

Also I know what point to point traffic is, but I don't know what is a "point to point" route ?

Although the A380 is an issue for Airbus, it's a very popular aircraft from Asia. It's often available where people want to fly (from big cities to big destinations), many airports having more 20% of their long haul traffic flying on A380s. Our customers like it a lot, and on the routes where it works it works great.
Airbus has certainly over estimated the size of the market, but the product itself works fine for the missions it was designed for. It certainly does not deserve the bashing we can read here. I would rather bash some airline managers who, by being too cautious, are just making some common enemies stronger and stronger. The A380plus will make these guys even more stronger.
Never trust the obvious
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:24 pm

WIederling wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
[On 787 versus A380 sales]

jumbojet wrote:
its sales that count the most at the end of the day. Nobody can deny that.


Ooh, ooh, an open goal. Let me be the one to kick it...

Yes, I can - I can deny it. Since it's totally and utterly irrelevant!

It's like saying "there's no point Mercedes building trucks since there are so few of them - they should just stick to building cars"

Bollocks!


Things in the mirror may appear smaller than they are:
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten ... ahrzeugen/

Then it is profits _in the long run_ that count not sales as such or some shortterm profit jackpot.


Indeed. It seems like such a simple concept yet those who perpetually run down programs, for example the max, seem unable to grasp it, regardless of the thousands of current sales and years of production backlog...as well as unknowable future sales.

In a business where product lines are decades long investments, it seems silly to base the success of a program on anything else than long term profits.

That being said, the 380 currently isn't being filled anywhere near maximum potential capacity as it is, so I'm not sure how another 50 seats will change the paradigm significantly.
What the...?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:32 pm

jumbojet wrote:
TranscendZac wrote:
I still believe there is a place for the A380. The 747-8 can't compete and the 779 is still substantially smaller than the A380 capacity-wise.


Your right, there is as place for the A380, its called the desert. Nobody wants it no matter how many people it holds. In fact the more people airbus tries to cram onto the A380, it actually makes it less attractive. Airlines want to fly routes with more frequency, not one flight a day between A&B with 1000 people crammed on it. Airbus just doesn't get that. Emirates will buy this A380-plus I am sure but that's about it.

As for the 748, lest not forget that in total, between all 747 derivatives, there have been more than 1000 sold. A380 sales, not sure but its nowhere near that #.


So EK is nobody? If you sold A380s and EK said they wanted 50 more, would you call them a nobody? Do you even grasp how much revenue that is and will be for Airbus? Who cares if EK is the primary purchaser - as long as they're purchasing and paying, I can assure you Airbus won't.

And define "cram"? It sounds like they are freeing up usable space - that's not "cramming", that's "adding".

Regarding what airlines want, I'll leave that to the experts and not people with a chip on their shoulder.

StTim wrote:
Wow - the love and hatred on here for certain types always astounds me.


It's prevalent. Some put it in easy to identify terms, such as jumbojet, while others put it in smarmy words and cute memes and pics. It's all the same. I hope you'd agree.
-Dave
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:36 pm

jumbojet wrote:
racercoup wrote:
"But has it? Can you show how many new p2p routes has the 787 opened? I think Boeing was wrong. The 787 is mostly plying exactly the same routes as planes before it."

The Dreamliner is responsible for 130 new p2p routes. I would argue it has done more to alleviate congestion at hubs than the A380 has. The A380 encourages travel through a hub, the 787 encourages passengers to eliminate going through the hub.


first off, this isn't a thread about 787 P2P routes, its a thread about trying to keep the A380 from being just a memory. Second, the 787 has opened up tons of routes that would never have been considered before. Just look at what UA has done with the 788 out of SFO, flying thin, long haul routes to 2ndary Chinese airports that weren't possible before the 788 and the 789, flying non-stop from cities like SFO to SIN. There are other 78 examples but those easily come to mind.


P2P generally means non-hub to non-hub. Anything on UA out of SFO, for example, is not P2P, as SFO is not a "point" for UA, it's a "hub".

SJC-ICN on UA would be P2P for them, but not SFO-ICN. I do agree, though, that the 787 is allowing their owners to add additional routes, though I'm not sure how you quantify that simply by looking at a route map. There are other things at play, such as world economics, global partnerships, etc. The 787 in many cases is the vehicle but not the instigator, IMHO. Nonetheless, it's clearly a success at doing what it's doing.
-Dave
 
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ER757
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:53 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
racercoup wrote:
"But has it? Can you show how many new p2p routes has the 787 opened? I think Boeing was wrong. The 787 is mostly plying exactly the same routes as planes before it."

The Dreamliner is responsible for 130 new p2p routes. I would argue it has done more to alleviate congestion at hubs than the A380 has. The A380 encourages travel through a hub, the 787 encourages passengers to eliminate going through the hub.


first off, this isn't a thread about 787 P2P routes, its a thread about trying to keep the A380 from being just a memory. Second, the 787 has opened up tons of routes that would never have been considered before. Just look at what UA has done with the 788 out of SFO, flying thin, long haul routes to 2ndary Chinese airports that weren't possible before the 788 and the 789, flying non-stop from cities like SFO to SIN. There are other 78 examples but those easily come to mind.


Nobody denies that. The point is, those are all hub to hub or hub to spoke routes. Spoke to spoke routes as Boeing advertised the 787 for are limited.

If you want to take the term literally, every flight is point to point - leaves from one point, arrives at another. What has happened with the 787 is that it has resulted in airlines flying new routes. Call them hub-point, point to point or whatever. The A380 has mostly plied routes that were already in existence. That's fine because that's pretty much what Airbus' business case for the plane's mission was to begin with. If they do go through with this update and it results in more sales, that would be wonderful news to this fan a large flying machines.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:05 pm

Bald1983 wrote:
Denver Tokyo, UAL. San Francisco to secondary cities in China UAL. Singapore to San Francisco, UAL. Auckland to Houston, Air New Zealand. San Francisco to Tel Aviv, United Airlines. Perth to London, non-stop, Qantas. To name a few.

The only one of those that could even remotely be referred to as P2P are PER-LON for QF.

Not only are the rest Hub2Spoke for the respective airlines, but some of them are Hub2Hub.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Slug71
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:36 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
It's supposedly getting redesigned wings optimized for the stretch and will have raked ends with blended winglets like the A330NEO wings. Supposed to use a lot more composites too.

Not a chance that that's true. Redesigned wing would be a 10-digit cost.

Well if there is going to be stretch and more use of composites, now would be the time to do it.
Given that the current wing was designed for the -900, the -800 suffers a penalty. And since the stretch won't be as long as the original -900, there would still be a penalty. So it makes sense to redesign the wing optimized for the stretch.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:50 pm

ro1960 wrote:
A.net forum is filled with topics about cramming in a few more seats here and there on 50+ year old designs like the 737 or a little younger ones like the A320 and everyone finds it perfectly normal. Here we have a manufacturer trying to optimize a recent model and everyone is bashing it? People!

They're questioning its utility. It's not unreasonable.

Hardly anyone uses the A380 to its capacity even now, so what good is adding more seats going to do (overall) in a real-world scenario? The per-seat cost is only lowered if you FILL the extra seats...
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
NichCage
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:56 pm

The probelm with the A380 is that its too big for most airlines. It was a unique aircraft, serving as a 747 replacement and holding more passengers. Most airlines don't need it nowdays. Only airlines such as BA,AF, LH,QR, EK, EY, OZ, KE,CZ, TG, MH, SQ, and QF have purchased the jet. At the end of the day, the A380 can be replaced with other jets like the 777-9 because the demand for the A380 will never turn a profit.

The last point I need to make is the fact that many operators struggle with the A380. China Southern had some trouble with it a while back, while Malaysia Airlines will get rid of the jet at some point because it is too big.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:02 pm

NichCage wrote:
The last point I need to make is the fact that many operators struggle with the A380. China Southern had some trouble with it a while back, while Malaysia Airlines will get rid of the jet at some point because it is too big.

Two out of 13, how is that "many"?
 
Jet-lagged
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:05 pm

ro1960 wrote:
77west wrote:
Hang on - remove the staircase? I know there is another one at the back, but I thought the staircase also acted as an emergency evac route which legally allows passengers in the front bit of the upper deck with no door in front of them. Perhaps they will install a ladder...


Read again: it's "modify" not "remove". The article says Airbus is looking at a "slimmed down staircase".


Oh, darn. I was going to suggest a fireman's pole.
 
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flee
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:07 pm

Malaysia Airlines and Airbus are exploring a 720 seat configuration for the A380. Perhaps Airbus is looking at this right now.
 
Whalejet
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:12 pm

flee wrote:
Malaysia Airlines and Airbus are exploring a 720 seat configuration for the A380. Perhaps Airbus is looking at this right now.


Source? Seeing everything coming out of MH in the past years, I thought they are moving their fleet in the opposite direction of the 380.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:18 pm

Whalejet wrote:
flee wrote:
Malaysia Airlines and Airbus are exploring a 720 seat configuration for the A380. Perhaps Airbus is looking at this right now.


Source? Seeing everything coming out of MH in the past years, I thought they are moving their fleet in the opposite direction of the 380.

There is a source for that. MH just announced it several days ago. Sorry too late here to search for the link.... The A380s will be operated by a separate operator, Airbus is working on the conversion to increase the number of seats.
 
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diverdave
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:26 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Whalejet wrote:
flee wrote:
Malaysia Airlines and Airbus are exploring a 720 seat configuration for the A380. Perhaps Airbus is looking at this right now.


Source? Seeing everything coming out of MH in the past years, I thought they are moving their fleet in the opposite direction of the 380.

There is a source for that. MH just announced it several days ago. Sorry too late here to search for the link.... The A380s will be operated by a separate operator, Airbus is working on the conversion to increase the number of seats.


Do you mean this?

http://www.chinaaviationdaily.com/news/61/61277.html

David
 
tjh8402
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:31 pm

PW100 wrote:
racercoup wrote:
The Dreamliner is responsible for 130 new p2p routes.

And yet you can not tick of the fingers of one single hand naming them . . .

Bald1983 wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
But has it? Can you show how many new p2p routes has the 787 opened? I think Boeing was wrong. The 787 is mostly plying exactly the same routes as planes before it.


Denver Tokyo, UAL. San Francisco to secondary cities in China UAL. Singapore to San Francisco, UAL. Auckland to Houston, Air New Zealand. San Francisco to Tel Aviv, United Airlines. Perth to London, non-stop, Qantas. To name a few.


Remarkable . . . SFO was a big hub for UA. Right until they started operating 787 there, then all of a sudden it miraculously is no longer a hub, qualifying for p2p . . . opportunity argument?

The vast majority of these "p2p" routes really are h2p routes. The more of these routes make a stronger hub. Ironically, a stronger the hub would not hurt A380 market potential . . .


The A380 is not designed for hub to spoke, its designed for hub to hub. SYD-DFW. CDG-ATL. FRA-IAH. As Polot explained, the A380 is based on the idea that travel from A, B, C, and D to G, H, I, and J would be ABCD-E-F-GHIJ with E and F being megahubs through which was funneled all the traffic from the surrounding non hub cities (ABCD to E and GHIJ to F), meaning that all passengers traveling between those two geographic areas would be traveling between E and F, no matter what their origin and destination. Instead, with the 787, the traffic is now splintered at Hub E, with non stop direct service to GHIJ, bypassing hub F entirely, lowering the amount of traffic between E and F and making the A380 less necessary.

For a real world example, look at UA at SFO and China. In the past, people in the US going to Hangzhou, Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu and Xi'an might've flown US-SFO-NRT-China (connecting with UA partner ANA's megahub in Tokyo to continue to China or making use of US 5th freedom flights from there), driving up traffic SFO-NRT and making a VLA an asset. Now, they bypass Tokyo entirely, with UA offering non stop flights to those Chinese destinations (typically on 787s) directly from SFO. Naturally, this lowers the traffic on SFO-NRT (because of less connecting traffic), lessening the need for a plane the size of an A380.
 
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Clipper101
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:52 pm

Those alterations to A380 OP is talking about which are now termed ‘A380-plus’ have been on the table for some time now (if I remember well, around the time when ANA was said to be interested in A380), which is leading me to speculate it as an advantage for EK the re-scheduling of their last 25 A380’s batch; I am strongly starting to believe EK is exploring to introduce this last batch as ‘A380-plus’ (less the 11-abreast), :twocents: . Plus, we still do not know ANA’s A380 configuration as of yet, or do we?!
It could be not as much for AIB to sell new A380’s in a ‘-Plus’ but rather to first introduce the concept onboard as much as possible of what is left of the existing A380 orders and to may be market it to existing customers as a retrofit.
 
parapente
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:25 pm

Before anyone says an A380 cannot do hub and spoke perhaps they should look at their route map....

Emirates has a unique model that works incredibly well.No heads in sand please!
 
Jalap
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:40 pm

tjh8402 wrote:
For a real world example, look at UA at SFO and China. In the past, people in the US going to Hangzhou, Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu and Xi'an might've flown US-SFO-NRT-China (connecting with UA partner ANA's megahub in Tokyo to continue to China or making use of US 5th freedom flights from there), driving up traffic SFO-NRT and making a VLA an asset. Now, they bypass Tokyo entirely, with UA offering non stop flights to those Chinese destinations (typically on 787s) directly from SFO. Naturally, this lowers the traffic on SFO-NRT (because of less connecting traffic), lessening the need for a plane the size of an A380.

Less connecting traffic most likely is why the A380 sold less than expected. But in general, demand increases. I wouldn't be surprised if demand for direct SFO-NRT today is higher than the direct plus connecting demand in say 2000. And I see no reason why such trend would stop.

If point to point demand - where one or both points are suffering from congestion - keeps increasing, then what other solution exists than increasing aircraft size? Expanding airports, developing new airports, possibly. But that doesn't look like the most sustainable option. I can't imagine that airplanes with the capacity of an A380 will remain a niche product forever. The question is, will the A380 program survive long enough to reach the time when planes with such capacity no longer are a niche product...
 
Tedd
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:33 am

Must be horrible for the powers that be at AB on how to proceed with the A380. They will be aware the market could well
improve in the near future, but that any perceived improved version taken up could be a costly waste of money on an already
huge investment that hasn`t really borne fruit. The stakes are so high, with skilled workforce & suppliers at risk, you can`t
criticise AB for exploring all avenues to keep the program alive, but in reality their options are pretty limited, either shut the
program down, or come up with an `A380-Plus` or similar & limp along until such time that a market for a Neo may or may
not materialise. I think the plane deserves a chance of success due to it`s proven comfort & safety, but unless they get some
kind of exceptional response to these improved offerings, then I`d imagine to continue with it would carry too much risk.
 
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caoimhin
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:43 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
It's prevalent. Some put it in easy to identify terms, such as jumbojet, while others put it in smarmy words and cute memes and pics. It's all the same. I hope you'd agree.


That smarmy user however, seems genuinely unaware of his own partisanship that makes his posts almost wholly unreadable. We all have our favourites, but come on mate--the moment I saw that name in the header, I could have drafted his post myself: "Boeing are horrible, always wrong, and they hate puppies. The A380 isn't the problem; everyone who doesn't want one is the problem." I reckon that, based on that completely inappropriate quote, you really believe Airbus are still the underdog in need of protection from the complacent management at Boeing? They're a massive incumbent aerospace conglomerate that nobody is "laughing at". This isn't 1990. Airbus are a mature multinational corporation that, I can assure you, Boeing take them quite seriously without your cheerleading.

In the present thread, find these defensive reactions against criticisms of Airbus to be very bizarre. They have a very exciting product that the market, taken as a whole, rejected. Forgive me for being blunt, but the plane didn't live up to expectations. It's okay. It happens. And it will continue to happen to both Boeing and Airbus for as long as they are around. Be grateful that these companies are willing to try these kinds of projects, because they give people like us something enriching to talk about. But don't entrench yourself in some defensive posture every time Airbus has to manage uncomfortable circumstances or information. From some people here, Boeing are the perennial whipping boy who have every business decision scrutinised with mean spirit. Even the threads on the 737MAX were full of people keen to remind everyone that it's an old frame, is noisy, has 1mm less seat width, and only exists because Boeing had to respond to the infallible A321neo LR.

Is it really that you can't be bothered to say something even neutral about your "opponent"? I even see the hardiest of Boeing fans say that the the 748i needs to go. Or that the 737MAX was a bridge too far. Or that the 77X is too niche. Surely if they can criticise "their" product line and occasionally give credit where credit is due their adversary, so can you.

And really, on these silly comparisons with the 787. This is a completely different aircraft that seems to be competently filling a mission. Whether it was the same as that marketers used in the late 2000s is a different question, but not a particularly useful one. Boeing are selling that plane quite happily, and it has improved or initiated routes for many airlines. Whether they are truly p2p or hub to spoke is really immaterial. New routes are viable with that product.
 
Fiend
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:58 am

parapente wrote:
Before anyone says an A380 cannot do hub and spoke perhaps they should look at their route map....

Emirates has a unique model that works incredibly well.No heads in sand please!


Exactly..... Look at DXB-MAN as a prime example... 3 x A380 daily and that's against competition from QR and EY....Given the choice I'd rather fly A380 with EK out of MAN rather than being crammed in like a sardine in a QR 787.
BAC 1-11, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, A380, B737, B747, B757, B777, B787, L1011, Fokker 100, ATR 72, MD83
 
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cvgComair
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:00 am

planewasted wrote:
barney captain wrote:
Strato2 wrote:

But has it? Can you show how many new p2p routes has the 787 opened? I think Boeing was wrong. The 787 is mostly plying exactly the same routes as planes before it.


AUS-LHR immediately comes to mind. What about MAN-PVR? (I saw two 787's in PVR just yesterday) SJC-PEK? SJC-LHR? These are just off of the top of my head.

I think it's safe to say the 787 has opened many new p2p markets.


I have flown LHR-AUS many times. And it has been operated by a 777-200 quite a few times.


The 787 showed that the route is possible, I believe BA is eventually going to put a 789 on the route. The 787 should be able to open up a handful of similar routes that were not feasible before now, LHR-STL/CVG/BNA/CMH/IND come to mind as the biggest contenders. In 5-10 years, as Asia traffic grows, routes like Asia-CLT/RDU/AUS could also become more attractive. None of these route will/would have happened without the 787.
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
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Matt6461
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:57 am

Re the OP...

Shrinking the stairs makes complete sense and would have made more sense in 2005 when A380's were actually selling.

Posters saying the A380 doesn't need or wouldn't benefit from more seats are just wrong. Improved per seat economics will help the A380's value proposition. If the extra seats came at little or no marginal trip cost, airlines could sell those seats to lower-yielding pax currently outbid under yield management regimes. That would be revenue-positive even if the imperfections of yield management mean some degradation of existing yields.

The foregoing doesn't imply that the value proposition is sufficiently changed to motivate new sales, however. These small changes won't overturn the fundamental problem that has stopped A380 sales dead: higher trip cost and risk versus 777-9 for little to no benefit in unit cost.

That Airbus is only now considering this obvious solution illustrates the madness and strategic wrongheadedness with which the program was conceived and executed: under no serious analysis is a flashy staircase or two worth 50 seats.

To make that design tradeoff requires a focus on something other than efficiency (grandiosity and European pride, for instance), or requires a misplaced confidence that the design will be so good, and is so well -placed in the market, that its manufacturer can be lazy around the edges of value proposition and go for, idk, prestige.

On the other hand maybe the big stairs were considered a necessity prior to the proliferation of UD jetways. Even then, 50 seats is such a big fracking deal that contingency/options should have been in place for this from the start.
Last edited by Matt6461 on Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:09 am

Re winglets:

I'm interested whether this is decently sourced. Smart folks here have said blended winglets would require aileron rework; non-blended winglets aren't very useful. Maybe that's why we see only 2% fuel benefit - given A380"s disproportionately high share of induced drag you'd expect it see better gain from winglets than other planes.
 
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Clipper101
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:31 am

Matt6461 wrote:
under no serious analysis is a flashy staircase or two worth 50 seats.


I believe Fwd staircase re-design should worth something like 20 additional Y seats, the count should go up to 50 when you incorporate 11-abreast !

Edited: Post re-written
 
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Matt6461
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:04 am

Clipper101 wrote:
I believe Fwd staircase re-design should worth something like 20 additional Y seats


Right. Lazy typing by me. 11ab adds ~25 seats, the revision of both stairs also ~25.

Same conclusion: flashy stairs aren't worth 5 seats, let alone 25.
 
TranscendZac
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:25 am

I wonder if Airbus is floating re-engining the A380 and if so, would the Trent XWB work? I'm not sure what the cost involved would be for that but it would surely help with CASM even without having to fill it full of pax. What has been the reservation for ordering the A380 for Asian carriers on trunk routes? I would have thought there would be no better choice?
Zac
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:30 am

dubaiamman243 wrote:
Do you fellow members think that the new plan will lure airlines who operate the A380 to keep their planes for a longer period or attracting new airlines? Why is Airbus still putting hopes on the A380 program?


It's a reasonable plan to explore as it is relatively low risk/low cost and has some potential to prolong the life of the program. I think for Airbus if they can keep the line running they have a potential bridge to a more extensive program in the future that includes new engines and potentially a big EK order down the line. Additionally, Airbus probably hopes that if market conditions change perhaps the 380 would be more desirable. It's a long shot, but worth some initial effort.
 
racercoup
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:32 am

So EK is nobody? If you sold A380s and EK said they wanted 50 more, would you call them a nobody? Do you even grasp how much revenue that is and will be for Airbus? Who cares if EK is the primary purchaser - as long as they're purchasing and paying, I can assure you Airbus won't.

Airbus currently cannot break even let alone make money producing 12 A380's per year, so the revenue does not matter unless you enjoy selling plane for less than it costs you to build them.
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:46 am

While it may be completely true that 350-400 seats is more ideal for today' s market than 500+ seats, The fact remains that even a 2005 vintage A380-800 is still more efficient per seat then the 2019 777-9 when you account for usable cabin floor area which is the only fair metric when comparing these two aircraft. I.e., a 779 in a 405 seat configuration can only be compared honestly to an A388 seating 655. Now I'm not an A388 fanboy, but the reality is that as long as you fill it as it was intended, it is more efficient than any existing or proposed widebody twin, including the hypothetical 777-10X if we assume a hypothetical A388NEO.
Boeing is being just as disingenuous about the 748 vs the 779 when comparing seating configurations. If the 779 is truly a 400 seater under "typical" loadouts than the 748 is truly a 480 seater under comparable "typical" loadouts -and still allows for wider 10 abreast seating. The 748 has close to 20% more usable cabin floor area than the 779.
For that matter, the 779 wing which Boeing touts as its "biggest ever" -composite or otherwise- is a flat out lie. The 748 wing is a full 1000 sq ft/ 20% larger in area. The span has nothing to do with the size.

I'm just tired of all the BS promotional sales spin about the 777 vs the A380 (and the 748 for that matter).
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:18 am

diverdave wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Whalejet wrote:

Source? Seeing everything coming out of MH in the past years, I thought they are moving their fleet in the opposite direction of the 380.

There is a source for that. MH just announced it several days ago. Sorry too late here to search for the link.... The A380s will be operated by a separate operator, Airbus is working on the conversion to increase the number of seats.


Do you mean this?

http://www.chinaaviationdaily.com/news/61/61277.html

David

Yes, that's what I meant. Thank you for providing the link.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:37 am

Matt6461 wrote:
To make that design tradeoff requires a focus on something other than efficiency (grandiosity and European pride, for instance), or requires a misplaced confidence that the design will be so good, and is so well -placed in the market, that its manufacturer can be lazy around the edges of value proposition and go for, idk, prestige.

I don't know much but there is one thing I know for sure, something like "European pride " doesn't exist. So this was definitely no reason.

Besides that I don't understand your "anger" (no offence meant) about the existing design of the front stairway. Customers liked it, about 300 airframes were ordered with that design which- at that time - was almost the number required for break even (actually even exceeding it). So what was wrong?

There is another company who introduced another very popular aircraft with a piano instead of using that floor space for seats... history keeps repeating itself.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus is examining 'A380-Plus'

Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:10 am

racercoup wrote:
So EK is nobody? If you sold A380s and EK said they wanted 50 more, would you call them a nobody? Do you even grasp how much revenue that is and will be for Airbus? Who cares if EK is the primary purchaser - as long as they're purchasing and paying, I can assure you Airbus won't.

Airbus currently cannot break even let alone make money producing 12 A380's per year, so the revenue does not matter unless you enjoy selling plane for less than it costs you to build them.


Well I would imagine that adding 50 from a customer would help, but what do I know.
-Dave
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