Amazing news ¡¡¡¡......Norwegian will flight from London to Buenos Aires from 400$ (return)......big battle start in south america.

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1991459-norw ... a-y-vuelta

Shocking! I bet they have OSL,CDG and BCN also in mind from EZE. I talked with some crew of DY and they said that JFK/FLL based crew would be operating some of the flights to South America from Europe.

I wonder if any routes to Colombia are in the works... A LGW service could go over well perhaps - foreign tourism is really growing here!

And buried in the same La Nacion piece, there are the news that Ethiopian will begin flying to EZE, extending their current flight from Addis Ababa to Sao Paulo GRU.

¿B787-8 or B787-9?

So Norwegian will eventually be able to provide its own connections on each end of the route, once it gets is Argentine airline up and running. Amazing.

Would Norwegian be able to fly internationally from Argentina to other SA countries or is it only domestic flights?

yoplait wrote:

Would Norwegian be able to fly internationally from Argentina to other SA countries or is it only domestic flights?

They could use 5th freedom rights and fly Europe-EZE-Chile, for example

Just to make it clear, Norwegian is yet to officially announce anything here. Will it come, probably yes, as they have talked about it for quite some time, but routes to Argentina is not yet firmed. It will probably come rather soon, but no idea if we talked about 2017 or 2018

lesfalls wrote:

Shocking! I bet they have OSL,CDG and BCN also in mind from EZE.

Not really, as they have been publically talking about potential Europe-Argentina routes since Autumn 2016

Too bad Gatwick is so hard to reach, Norwegian doesn't have a feeder flight from Amsterdam. They do have feeder flights to their Scandinavian hubs (Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen) and even to Helsinki which isn't even a hub, but Gatwick is being left out.

winGl3t wrote:

yoplait wrote:

Would Norwegian be able to fly internationally from Argentina to other SA countries or is it only domestic flights?

They could use 5th freedom rights and fly Europe-EZE-Chile, for example

5th freedom? What for? Norwegian Argentina is an Argentinian airline, just like LATAM Argentina and Aerolíneas Argentinas. They should have no problems getting traffic rights to other South American countries from Argentina.

pabloeing wrote:

¿B787-8 or B787-9?

Remains to be seen, however they do have some 20 Boeng 787-9's being added to the fleet within the next 1.5 year.

pabloeing wrote:

¿B787-8 or B787-9?

That's my question too. I doubt that a 738 has the range (even the MAX) to handle LGW-EZE nonstop?

pabloeing wrote:

¿B787-8 or B787-9?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that DY only use the 789 on long haul flights out of LGW while the 788 flies their other long haul network out of ARN/OSL/CPH/CDG and soon to be BCN. So the EZE flight will most likely also be on the 789.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Too bad Gatwick is so hard to reach, Norwegian doesn't have a feeder flight from Amsterdam. They do have feeder flights to their Scandinavian hubs (Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen) and even to Helsinki which isn't even a hub, but Gatwick is being left out.

True LGW is hard to reach but HEL actually is a hub, with some 40 Norwegian 738 routes, also domestic.

I suspect the response from BA will be to replace the current 777-236ER flight from LHR with either the 77W or 787-9. That will at least allow them to improve yield whilst giving room to cut prices (if required).

superjeff wrote:

pabloeing wrote:

¿B787-8 or B787-9?

That's my question too. I doubt that a 738 has the range (even the MAX) to handle LGW-EZE nonstop?

No way a 737 can make that distance without refueling. You'd need at least two fuel stops to cover that distance. Could almost handle it with one, but Cape Verde - Buenos Aires is just a little too far for the MAX (although the MAX 7 could make it, but Norwegian ordered the MAX 8 which has less range). Still Cape Verde would be the closest you can get to a halfway stop, there is nothing south inbetween there and Brazil and a direct Gatwick - Brazil flight is too far either. Would the destination have been Rio de Janeiro or Sao Paulo, the MAX could have made it in two hops.

FlyCaledonian wrote:

I suspect the response from BA will be to replace the current 777-236ER flight from LHR with either the 77W or 787-9. That will at least allow them to improve yield whilst giving room to cut prices (if required).

BA was already using the 77W (at least during Argentina's high season that has just ended) once a week or so when loads were higher than the 276 seat capacity of the 3-class 777-236ER.

I am of the opinion that every player will benefit from the arrival of Norwegian to Argentina. It will stimulate demand from folks that may not necessarily consider a trip to Europe or South America right now and BA stands to win from that demand. The business traveler that parts with $5 grand for a business class ticket and has status on One World or Skyteam, is not the segment of the market Norwegian is after. BA, LH, KL, IB or AF already own the high end of the market.

Air fares to/from South America are still too high and hopefully between Norwegian and IAG's low cost they will change that. Compare the cost of flying from Europe to Thailand, for instance, and then compare fares to GIG or EZE, which are the airports for the two cities in South America with the most international visitors.

Are international fares in Argentina de-regulated? Can't tell whether they can regulate what gets sold at the Europe end, but I'd be surprised if Norwegian can charge whatever in Argentina. And there is huge demand for cheap travel to Europe from Argentina. After all, that is where it belongs....

incitatus wrote:

Are international fares in Argentina de-regulated? Can't tell whether they can regulate what gets sold at the Europe end, but I'd be surprised if Norwegian can charge whatever in Argentina. And there is huge demand for cheap travel to Europe from Argentina. After all, that is where it belongs....

International fares are not regulated in Argentina. Domestic fares are following the same road too, Andes is charging less than the average bus price to COR, MDZ and MDQ; AR and 4M are having "banda negativa" time dated online sales for the same amounts, so, yes, Argentina is changing, You should brush up on your Argentina travel trivia, instead of posting petty comments like the one above. Because you would be singing a different tune if Norwegian would be flying to/from your Brazil instead, Grow up.

B747forever wrote:

pabloeing wrote:

¿B787-8 or B787-9?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that DY only use the 789 on long haul flights out of LGW while the 788 flies their other long haul network out of ARN/OSL/CPH/CDG and soon to be BCN. So the EZE flight will most likely also be on the 789.

LGW is more or less 787-9 only at the moment, while the others sees a mix og -8 and -9

FlyCaledonian wrote:

I suspect the response from BA will be to replace the current 777-236ER flight from LHR with either the 77W or 787-9. That will at least allow them to improve yield whilst giving room to cut prices (if required).

EZE is a 3 class route for BA; aren't they better off sticking with the 77E and introducing the 'Gatwick' configuration which is specifically aimed at undercutting DY?

What is the UK Argentina Bilateral like? Open skies?

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Too bad Gatwick is so hard to reach, Norwegian doesn't have a feeder flight from Amsterdam. They do have feeder flights to their Scandinavian hubs (Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen) and even to Helsinki which isn't even a hub, but Gatwick is being left out.

'Too bad Gatwick is so hard to reach'

Well if your coming from Amsterdam then Gatwick is not that hard to reach as there are numerous flights a day between AMS and LGW by both British Airways and Easyjet, all you need to do is get a flight with either of those and make your own transfer to fly with Norwegian, job done it's not difficult and then your know how 'easy' it is to reach Gatwick rather than 'difficult' as you state.

Wow. DY certainly mixing it up in BA's back yard. Assuming this does come to fruition, where next out of LGW?

UAL777UK wrote:

Wow. DY certainly mixing it up in BA's back yard. Assuming this does come to fruition, where next out of LGW?

Cape Town please

Cunard wrote:

'Too bad Gatwick is so hard to reach'

Well if your coming from Amsterdam then Gatwick is not that hard to reach as there are numerous flights a day between AMS and LGW by both British Airways and Easyjet, all you need to do is get a flight with either of those and make your own transfer to fly with Norwegian, job done it's not difficult and then your know how 'easy' it is to reach Gatwick rather than 'difficult' as you state.

I know that of course. The problem is that if you make a self-transfer like that you are to pay the tax that passengers originating from the UK pay where transfer passengers are excluded from that tax. For that reason a flight Copenhagen - Gatwick - New York might just be cheaper than the same flight Gatwick - New York. It all has to do with the taxes that you do or do not pay depending on if you make a transfer or not. But a self-transfer is not registered as a transfer so it's more expensive than a transfer arranged by the airline.

Sorry to be a party pooper, but does the bilateral allow this? I think not.

shankly wrote:

UAL777UK wrote:

Wow. DY certainly mixing it up in BA's back yard. Assuming this does come to fruition, where next out of LGW?

Cape Town please

There's been talk about CPT (or South African routes in general) for quite a while...however they might have reconsidered since both BA and Thomas Cook started LGW-CPT since last year.
Eventually I believe Norwegian will reach CPT, but not necessarily just from LGW, the Scandinavian tourist market to SA have also been growing very good lately, so CPH should probably also be possible, since there's no direct flights from any Scandinavian country to any South Africa city.

I'd add that this route doesn't seem like their best option at this point.

UK-Argentina isn't a large market, despite the cultural and natural riches of both nations. BA cut their EZE service down to five per week a year or two ago too. Both countries' economies and situations also aren't really supportive of a long, thin route like this at this time.

However DY's plans to enter the Argentina domestic market do make a lot of sense, given the country's large size and huge potential now their air transport market is open to competition.

TheLion wrote:

I'd add that this route doesn't seem like their best option at this point.

UK-Argentina isn't a large market, despite the cultural and natural riches of both nations. BA cut their EZE service down to five per week a year or two ago too. Both countries' economies and situations also aren't really supportive of a long, thin route like this at this time.

However DY's plans to enter the Argentina domestic market do make a lot of sense, given the country's large size and huge potential now their air transport market is open to competition.

BA flies daily to EZE. Cutting down to 5x week was in 2013 in response to a softening in demand from the Argentina POS related to currency exchange measures put in place by Mrs Kirchner's administration. Fast forward to 2017, BA has been back in the market on a daily basis since 2015, the currency restrictions are long gone and ding, dong, the witch is politically dead.

UK-Argentina is the second largest market in South America after Brazil and demand for travel between the two countries is at an all time high. London is the third most visited destination in Europe for Argentinians. Norwegian will stimulate more demand and BA can benefit from that, as the airline has a good franchise in Argentina. Lets not forget also that Argentina has a huge AAdvantage membership base, so BA benefits immensely from that loyalty preference via OneWorld.

BestWestern wrote:

Sorry to be a party pooper, but does the bilateral allow this? I think not.

Yes, as Norwegian can fly this route using its Argentinian subsidiary, Norwegian Argentina SA, which was set in January. No Argentinian carrier is flying to the UK currently, so they have, at least, a daily frequency available, from a quid pro quo standpoint.

dcajet wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

Sorry to be a party pooper, but does the bilateral allow this? I think not.

Yes, as Norwegian can fly this route using its Argentinian subsidiary, Norwegian Argentina SA, which was set in January. No Argentinian carrier is flying to the UK currently, so they have, at least, a daily frequency available, from a quid pro quo standpoint.

If that's the case, could we see LAN or Aerolineas Argentinas jump to the route before Norwegian Argentina can pick it up?

VCy wrote:

If that's the case, could we see LAN or Aerolineas Argentinas jump to the route before Norwegian Argentina can pick it up?

Highly unlikely. LATAM (then LAN) had great plans for LAN Argentina and EZE in particular. Those plans flew out of the window when LAN merged with TAM. GRU is geographically better suited for a hub to Europe, and LATAM already flies to LHR from there, so a flight from EZE would cannibalize the GRU one to a certain extent.

AR simply can't. Current focus is to turn a profit on every existing international route so adding a new route at this time seems a bit counter intuitive, especially one that is well covered by BA. Equipment wise, AR is getting rid of the A340 fleet next year, so that leaves the A330 fleet only for a hypothetical LHR flight, which is doable with the A330-200 242t. AR already flies them to FCO which is a few miles farther away from EZE than LHR.

dcajet wrote:

BA flies daily to EZE. Cutting down to 5x week was in 2013 in response to a softening in demand from the Argentina POS related to currency exchange measures put in place by Mrs Kirchner's administration. Fast forward to 2017, BA has been back in the market on a daily basis since 2015, the currency restrictions are long gone and ding, dong, the witch is politically dead.

UK-Argentina is the second largest market in South America after Brazil and demand for travel between the two countries is at an all time high. London is the third most visited destination in Europe for Argentinians. Norwegian will stimulate more demand and BA can benefit from that, as the airline has a good franchise in Argentina. Lets not forget also that Argentina has a huge AAdvantage membership base, so BA benefits immensely from that loyalty preference via OneWorld.

You're right they do fly daily. I hadn't seen the frequency reinstatement. It's still not a large market compared to many others from the UK though. The UK to Lat Am is a growing market of course but only Brazil is really a large market.

You seem to loathe Kirchner. Like many politicos she wasn't perfect but did do plenty of good for Argentina and often enough fought her country's corner. The hedge funds and neoliberal institutions however...like wolves over a tasty new prey.

dcajet wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

Sorry to be a party pooper, but does the bilateral allow this? I think not.

Yes, as Norwegian can fly this route using its Argentinian subsidiary, Norwegian Argentina SA, which was set in January. No Argentinian carrier is flying to the UK currently, so they have, at least, a daily frequency available, from a quid pro quo standpoint.

All Norwegian have done is started a paper company in Argentina. This is a long way off being an airline.

BestWestern wrote:

dcajet wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

Sorry to be a party pooper, but does the bilateral allow this? I think not.

Yes, as Norwegian can fly this route using its Argentinian subsidiary, Norwegian Argentina SA, which was set in January. No Argentinian carrier is flying to the UK currently, so they have, at least, a daily frequency available, from a quid pro quo standpoint.

All Norwegian have done is started a paper company in Argentina. This is a long way off being an airline.

Well, they are said to start Argentina operations by the end of 2017, so I'm sure it's a bit more than that by now. The official registration of Norwegian Air Argentina was on 26Jan17 capitalized with US$ 100,000 for 99 years with a board composed of three Argentine directors.

100,000 capitalisation is nothing. Three directors is a minimum for company formations.

As you know, The plan for Norwegian Argentina is for up to ten 737 operations and not 787. The plan is for Aeroparque and not EZE.

If you read the initial article: http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1991459-norw ... a-y-vuelta

The first have to get approval to commence an airline... and before that...

"La empresa noruega participará de la nueva audiencia pública, en abril, para comenzar otro proceso de otorgamiento de rutas aéreas a compañías privadas."

The process for this doesn't start till April.

Everything else at this stage is pure PR bullshit. London from $400 one way.... mmmm

BestWestern wrote:

100,000 capitalisation is nothing. Three directors is a minimum for company formations.

As you know, The plan for Norwegian Argentina is for up to ten 737 operations and not 787. The plan is for Aeroparque and not EZE.

If you read the initial article: http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1991459-norw ... a-y-vuelta

The first have to get approval to commence an airline... and before that...

"La empresa noruega participará de la nueva audiencia pública, en abril, para comenzar otro proceso de otorgamiento de rutas aéreas a compañías privadas."

The process for this doesn't start till April.

Everything else at this stage is pure PR bullshit. London from $400 one way.... mmmm

They also plan long haul operations With the B787

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Too bad Gatwick is so hard to reach, Norwegian doesn't have a feeder flight from Amsterdam. They do have feeder flights to their Scandinavian hubs (Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen) and even to Helsinki which isn't even a hub, but Gatwick is being left out.

HARD TO REACH ??? REALLY

Is this in the system?

No. Just a PR dream at the moment.

BestWestern wrote:

No. Just a PR dream at the moment.

Why exactly are you so sceptical ?