Midwestindy wrote:

Looks like WN isn't extending the IND-SAN route after this summer, so it seems like AS could likely take that route over....

The route was announced as 'seasonal' (which is ridiculous unless WN didn't have the a/c to run the flight during the winter) but I too hoped they would find an airplane to keep the route going year-round for its first year. Doesn't seem to be in the cards... so far.

I've posted your exact thoughts several times, especially since WN announced the route in January, and I still feel that AAG will jump into the market as soon as they have an available airplane; I expect it would be a 737 and not an EMJ. Hopefully, they can get it started before WN gets around to 'seasonally' starting up again, which I'm sure will be in 1H18. (There was talk that the route would have been announced as year-round except for their fleet reorganization going on later this year and I'm quite sure that WN will offer it year-round as soon as they can.)

In fact, I'm quite disappointed that AS didn't start SAN-IND right along with SEA -- the markets are very similar in O&D pax data so SAN-IND would have been profitable from the beginning. Perhaps they didn't have another 737 available at that time. One thing's for sure though, AAG would have been the first in the market, beating WN to it!

One other thing I've noticed about the WN service is that it continues thru the Labor Day weekend, operating for the last time on Monday, Sept 4, whereas some of our new seasonal routes end in mid-August. That may be due to a/c availability or that WN expects good things from the route...

I was happy to read the recent posts up-thread about expectations that there will be more service IND-SAN to come; that's got to be referring to AAG! Hope to see it soon!

bb

I am sure this link has been shared at one point or another but I am linking it again just as a reference to the airlines being discussed in the quest for IND-LHR. BA and AA are mentioned specifically as the ones IND is negotiating with. What equipment type would likely be used if one or the other carrier were to fly the route?

https://www.ibj.com/articles/57376-indy ... -to-london

Indy wrote:

I am sure this link has been shared at one point or another but I am linking it again just as a reference to the airlines being discussed in the quest for IND-LHR. BA and AA are mentioned specifically as the ones IND is negotiating with. What equipment type would likely be used if one or the other carrier were to fly the route?

https://www.ibj.com/articles/57376-indy ... -to-london

Actually, this was my first time seeing that specific article, and there are a few interesting things to take away

1. "Indianapolis to Mexico City is probably in the future" which airline were they thinking would start that?
2. When or if BA is the one to start the route it will be on the Boeing 787-8 with a 35J/25W/154Y=214 seat configuration, their other possible planes are probably too premium heavy...
If AA is the one on the route it will more than likely be a 757-200, Boeing 767-300ER is also a possibility but it is less likely
3. I wouldn't be surprised if BA/AA announce more than one US destination this year, looking at the media/airports in IND and BNA they are both indicating a major announcement in the late
summer early fall time frame, which is right around when BA announces new routes....

I think Volars can easily do Mexico City from Indy. There's a lot of German people in Indy, Im surprised Luftansa isnt the first priority

The federal government has released the preliminary 2016 enplanements:

Indianapolis International............4,181,608
Cleveland-Hopkins International..4,073,442
Pittsburgh International..............3,953,440
Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky.....3,261,870

IND's growth was 7.51%. It jumped in rank from from 48 to 45 surpassing SAT (46), CLE (47), and PIT (48). CVG (52) and CMH (49) also has very good growth at 6.77% and 6.71% respectively.

The growth for SAT, CLE, and PIT was 2.09%, 4.00%, and 1.61%.

Wow, I'm surprised IND has a nearly a full million more enplanements vs CVG, which in some forms still benefits from some connecting traffic. I've always heard CVG is a more corporate oriented market vs IND given the presence of more larger national and global firms, is this truthful?

I've always thought IND is a great location to be an excellent regional hub, but instead it seems like the only airline such a model would work for, WN, is more focused on STL and MCI.

flyboy80 wrote:

Wow, I'm surprised IND has a nearly a full million more enplanements vs CVG, which in some forms still benefits from some connecting traffic. I've always heard CVG is a more corporate oriented market vs IND given the presence of more larger national and global firms, is this truthful?

I've always thought IND is a great location to be an excellent regional hub, but instead it seems like the only airline such a model would work for, WN, is more focused on STL and MCI.

Not sure why IND has so many more enplanements than CVG. I mean IND & CVG receive almost identical tourism spending. Markets are similar size. How do the two airports compare when it comes to low cost carriers? That could be the difference maker.

Indy wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

Wow, I'm surprised IND has a nearly a full million more enplanements vs CVG, which in some forms still benefits from some connecting traffic. I've always heard CVG is a more corporate oriented market vs IND given the presence of more larger national and global firms, is this truthful?

I've always thought IND is a great location to be an excellent regional hub, but instead it seems like the only airline such a model would work for, WN, is more focused on STL and MCI.

Not sure why IND has so many more enplanements than CVG. I mean IND & CVG receive almost identical tourism spending. Markets are similar size. How do the two airports compare when it comes to low cost carriers? That could be the difference maker.

I think it's also important to note that IND, in 2016, had about 1.8 million more enplaned pax compared to CVG (~8.5 million vs. 6.7 million respectively). CVG was unfortunately quite hurt by the protracted period of DL cuts and the lag of the arrival of LCC carriers to the market, Cincinnati had zero LCC service until 2013 when F9 launched their daily flight to Denver. Essentially the Indianapolis air travel market is currently larger, while Cincinnati has a long way to claw back from the years of high fares and no LCC service. I suspect in a few years the two markets will return to parity...in 2017 alone CVG is projected to surpass 7 million enplaned pax.

Indy wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

Wow, I'm surprised IND has a nearly a full million more enplanements vs CVG, which in some forms still benefits from some connecting traffic. I've always heard CVG is a more corporate oriented market vs IND given the presence of more larger national and global firms, is this truthful?

I've always thought IND is a great location to be an excellent regional hub, but instead it seems like the only airline such a model would work for, WN, is more focused on STL and MCI.

Not sure why IND has so many more enplanements than CVG. I mean IND & CVG receive almost identical tourism spending. Markets are similar size. How do the two airports compare when it comes to low cost carriers? That could be the difference maker.

I think CVG not having WN until this June is one of the biggest reason CVG has fewer enplanements than CVG. With an 11% traffic increase YTD over 2016 so far, once WN's numbers start adding into totals, CVG will easily see a 15% increase in passengers for 2017, which will put the airport close to 8 million passengers.

Here is my math:
6,773,905 pax in 2016
10.27% increase so far, assumes all other carriers maintain growth through the end of the year: 7,469,585 passengers
+ WN adds ~300,000:
(143 seats * 55 weekly flights * 26 weeks WN serves * 75% LF * 2 (both ways) = 306,735)
This gives 7,776,320, or 7.7-7.8 million passengers for 2017.

flyboy80 wrote:

Wow, I'm surprised IND has a nearly a full million more enplanements vs CVG, which in some forms still benefits from some connecting traffic. I've always heard CVG is a more corporate oriented market vs IND given the presence of more larger national and global firms, is this truthful?

I would say the Indianapolis and Cincinnati business markets are pretty similar. CVG has a lot of large Fortune 500 and 1000 companies headquartered in the region, which have always and still supports DL's (small) hub operation at CVG today. I believe Cincinnati has the most Fortune 500's per capita, but I am not sure how current that stat is. While IND does not have as many Fortune 500/1000's, they still have many large companies. I think its hard to say which has more global reach, but both have companies with extensive global reach.

As LCC's and WN keep building up at CVG (it has only been 3.5 years for F9, 3 years for G4, and 1 month for WN), passenger counts will increase a lot more inline with IND/PIT/RDU. Also, AA/UA are much smaller at CVG than at IND, DL still holds over a 50% share of the Cincinnati market, neither AA/UA operated mainline to CVG until this past fall. Since DL still has connecting traffic at CVG, that has prevented all carriers from growing for quite a long time.

F9 will announce IND-TPA tomorrow. I will wait to see if that is it... I'd like to see them add IND-SAN/MIA/PDX/AUS/ or SEA....

Has anyone seen this story?

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/loca ... 475948001/

A massive amount of land is being purchased. The project will be about 2,200 acres. I guess some are speculating an airport. I cannot imagine that would be the case. Wouldn't there have to be all sorts of hearings and environmental studies be conducted before something like this could even begin to happen? I think part of the problem is that it is hard to come up with any other development that eats up that kind of chunk of land. I cannot imagine a cargo airport going in there but I guess anything is possible. If it isn't an airport then what could it realistically be? Distribution centers don't eat up that kind of space. The entire Microsoft campus is only 500 acres. Even the biggest theme park doesn't come close to using this much land. You'd have to add together all of the Disney parks in Florida to use this much space.

I wonder how crazy the airport idea really is. The 2,200 acres is more than 3 times the size of MDW and slightly bigger than MKE. If any city were to propose a 2nd airport, would there be a better location? This spot is pretty wide open. Not much development around it yet. It is also on the exact opposite side of town of the current airport. It is also located close to the most affluent part of the metro area. This could offer up service to limited business destinations as well as cargo operations. It would certainly offer a huge economic boost to an area already rapidly growing. While I don't see much need for one right now, the best time to plan and get the land is while the land is still cheap and the area isn't overly developed.

That said... I am rooting for a theme park.

^trust me when I say that theme parks cause nothing but trouble and headaches, trust me I live less than 10 minutes from the mouse trap.

flymco753 wrote:

^trust me when I say that theme parks cause nothing but trouble and headaches, trust me I live less than 10 minutes from the mouse trap.

If it isn't a theme park then what else could it be? BTW a theme park in Indy isn't going to be anything like the mouse trap. Love that name btw

Indy wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

^trust me when I say that theme parks cause nothing but trouble and headaches, trust me I live less than 10 minutes from the mouse trap.

If it isn't a theme park then what else could it be? BTW a theme park in Indy isn't going to be anything like the mouse trap. Love that name btw

That's what we call it when we're mad at the traffic! You're right though, it could be in line with Six Flags, Cedar Point, Michigan Adventure and other good sized theme parks.

IND-CUN added on WN Saturday only, it looks as if it begins March 17 leaving at 7:20am and returning at 5:50pm on a 737-700

This brings them to a solid 20 nonstop destinations from IND!

What is WN's end goal in IND? they continue to cut destinations/frequencies from IND but still try to send a lot of connections through IND at the same time...

Take flights to RSW for example
Excluding places with year round daily non-stops to RSW on WN here are some of the possible connections made through IND
RSW-LAX July 30 4/10 connections are through IND
LAX-RSW July 30 2/9 connections are through IND
RSW-MCI Aug 4 2/10 connections are through IND
MCI-RSW Oct 23 3/10 connections are through IND
RSW-EWR Aug 4 1/3 connections are through IND
EWR-RSW Oct 23 1/3 connections are through IND
DEN-RSW Oct 23 1/11 connections are through IND
RSW-DEN Oct 28 2/10 connections are through IND
LAS-RSW Aug 5 3/10 connections are through IND
LAS-RSW Oct 28 2/7 connections are through IND
RSW-LAS Oct 23 2/10 connections are through IND
RSW-DCA Aug 2 1/5 connections are through IND
DCA-RSW July 30 1/8 connections are through IND
RSW-BOS Oct 22 2/10 connections are through IND
SAN-RSW July 31 3/8 connections are through IND
RSW-SAN Aug 4 1/7 connections are through IND
PHX-RSW July 30 3/10 connections are through IND
RSW-PHX Oct 23 1/10 connections are through IND
DAL-RSW Aug 5 2/12 connections are through IND
RSW-DAL Oct 23 2/10 connections are through IND
SMF-RSW Aug 5 2/8 connections are through IND
RSW-SMF Aug 6 1/4 connections are through IND
PDX-RSW Aug 6 1/3 connections are through IND
SEA-RSW Aug 6 1/2 connections are through IND
SFO-RSW Aug 6 1/2 connections are through IND
SLC-RSW Aug 6 2/4 connections are through IND
MSP-RSW Aug 6 1/5 connections are through IND
MKE-RSW Aug 6 1/3 connections are through IND
SNA-RSW Aug 6 2/3 connections are through IND
SJC-RSW Aug 6 4/7 connections are through IND
RNO-RSW Aug 6 3/4 connections are through IND
OMA-RSW Aug 6 1/2 connections are through IND

BOS/EWR/SAN/and a few others, all also have a decent amount of connections through IND as well...

How many of those actually have people getting off the plane? Most they are just through passengers (with more than one stop), right? I think they way Southwest sets up their schedule there are a fair amount of cities that fall into this. I mean you can book 4 stop flights but who actually does this? I wouldn't think too many people actually book those routes when there are one stops available. I would imagine the amount of connection traffic you have lines up a lot with your overall flight count. Even DSM you can have a through layover on BUR-RDU and it has 3 flights a day I think.

It just seems that IND always has a hard time maintaining frequencies to BOS, NY airports and DC airports. I wonder why that is.

Indy wrote:

It just seems that IND always has a hard time maintaining frequencies to BOS, NY airports and DC airports. I wonder why that is.

That may be a reason why B6 hasn't landed at IND yet, and IND has plenty of Florida flights, so I think that presents a good argument as to why B6 isn't at IND yet.

Jshank83 wrote:

How many of those actually have people getting off the plane? Most they are just through passengers (with more than one stop), right? I think they way Southwest sets up their schedule there are a fair amount of cities that fall into this. I mean you can book 4 stop flights but who actually does this? I wouldn't think too many people actually book those routes when there are one stops available. I would imagine the amount of connection traffic you have lines up a lot with your overall flight count. Even DSM you can have a through layover on BUR-RDU and it has 3 flights a day I think.

Jshank83 wrote:

How many of those actually have people getting off the plane? Most they are just through passengers (with more than one stop), right? I think they way Southwest sets up their schedule there are a fair amount of cities that fall into this. I mean you can book 4 stop flights but who actually does this? I wouldn't think too many people actually book those routes when there are one stops available. I would imagine the amount of connection traffic you have lines up a lot with your overall flight count. Even DSM you can have a through layover on BUR-RDU and it has 3 flights a day I think.

A lot of the west coast destinations can't reach RSW 1 stop on WN. So 2 stops are inevitable.....And sure there are a few that are 3-4 stop, but the bulk are 1-2 stops and no plane change flights. The RSW flights are also timed to allow for O&D and connections, because they leave at 12 and 7 I believe.

Of course this is just one example but there are others, however it is still telling because IND is still an O&D station.

flymco753 wrote:

Indy wrote:

It just seems that IND always has a hard time maintaining frequencies to BOS, NY airports and DC airports. I wonder why that is.

That may be a reason why B6 hasn't landed at IND yet, and IND has plenty of Florida flights, so I think that presents a good argument as to why B6 isn't at IND yet.

Up until now I believe the barrier that has been keeping B6 out is WN, WN has been saturating the market for a while, but with the plane shortage they can't afford to waste planes at least for now. Now with WN freeing up PDEW B6 for the first time in a while has the ability to start these flights. WN never should have been running these 2x daily on 120+ seat aircraft, B6 has the right aircraft and BOS point of sale to make these flights work. The reason why WN-east coast doesn't work is because many IND flyers don't do business travel on WN. Which means that these flights have to rely on leisure and a small amount of business travel that isn't absorbed by DL/AA/UA, and the week day leisure travel is not strong especially during the winter. Therefore B6 has the ability to make these flights work, especially with its unique advantages over WN.

Midwestindy wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Indy wrote:

It just seems that IND always has a hard time maintaining frequencies to BOS, NY airports and DC airports. I wonder why that is.

That may be a reason why B6 hasn't landed at IND yet, and IND has plenty of Florida flights, so I think that presents a good argument as to why B6 isn't at IND yet.

Up until now I believe the barrier that has been keeping B6 out is WN, WN has been saturating the market for a while, but with the plane shortage they can't afford to waste planes at least for now. Now with WN freeing up PDEW B6 for the first time in a while has the ability to start these flights. WN never should have been running these 2x daily on 120+ seat aircraft, B6 has the right aircraft and BOS point of sale to make these flights work. The reason why WN-east coast doesn't work is because many IND flyers don't do business travel on WN. Which means that these flights have to rely on leisure and a small amount of business travel that isn't absorbed by DL/AA/UA, and the week day leisure travel is not strong especially during the winter. Therefore B6 has the ability to make these flights work, especially with its unique advantages over WN.

You're right, and hypothetically B6 could probably do 2x daily BOS for now, both on E190's. For instance, DTW was 3x E190 and than the 3rd flight went to an A320, and DL had BOS by the sack of Santa's toys until B6 came in, than NK also jumped in. Next question would be, why isn't NK at IND?

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/st ... al-nonstop

INDIANAPOLIS -
Indiana Secretary of Commerce Jim Schellinger says stepped-up efforts to land a transatlantic flight at Indianapolis International Airport are paying off and "we'll have something to talk about in a matter of months." In an interview on Inside INdiana Business Television, Schellinger said the $5 million approved by the Indiana General Assembly to help attract the flight is working. In May, the airport announced a $180,000 contract with Develop Indy, the Indy Chamber's business development unit, for air service and land use development activities. Among Develop Indy priorities: locking in corporate support for additional Indy nonstops, including a transatlantic route.

Schellinger says he is encouraged by recent discussions with key players.

The business community has long considered a dearth of nonstop at Indianapolis International a liability for the Indianapolis region and state of Indiana.

Efforts by the airport, business community and organizations including the Indiana Chamber of Commerce, Indy Chamber, Indiana Economic Development Corporation and VisitIndy are paying dividends. The airport’s nonstop flight count is now at 47, the highest number since the current terminal opened in 2008.

According to the Secretary of Commerce they were in London a few weeks ago, and last week they were in talks about a direct flight to Amsterdam

"we'll have something to talk about in a matter of months." if that isn't encouraging I don't know what is.... great things to come....

Midwestindy wrote:

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/36008088/schellinger-progress-on-international-nonstop

INDIANAPOLIS -
Indiana Secretary of Commerce Jim Schellinger says stepped-up efforts to land a transatlantic flight at Indianapolis International Airport are paying off and "we'll have something to talk about in a matter of months." In an interview on Inside INdiana Business Television, Schellinger said the $5 million approved by the Indiana General Assembly to help attract the flight is working. In May, the airport announced a $180,000 contract with Develop Indy, the Indy Chamber's business development unit, for air service and land use development activities. Among Develop Indy priorities: locking in corporate support for additional Indy nonstops, including a transatlantic route.

Schellinger says he is encouraged by recent discussions with key players.

The business community has long considered a dearth of nonstop at Indianapolis International a liability for the Indianapolis region and state of Indiana.

Efforts by the airport, business community and organizations including the Indiana Chamber of Commerce, Indy Chamber, Indiana Economic Development Corporation and VisitIndy are paying dividends. The airport’s nonstop flight count is now at 47, the highest number since the current terminal opened in 2008.

According to the Secretary of Commerce they were in London a few weeks ago, and last week they were in talks about a direct flight to Amsterdam

"we'll have something to talk about in a matter of months." if that isn't encouraging I don't know what is.... great things to come....

Well that basically confirms a flight to London. Who do you all think it will be? I am betting a BA 788.

Continental767 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/36008088/schellinger-progress-on-international-nonstop

INDIANAPOLIS -
Indiana Secretary of Commerce Jim Schellinger says stepped-up efforts to land a transatlantic flight at Indianapolis International Airport are paying off and "we'll have something to talk about in a matter of months." In an interview on Inside INdiana Business Television, Schellinger said the $5 million approved by the Indiana General Assembly to help attract the flight is working. In May, the airport announced a $180,000 contract with Develop Indy, the Indy Chamber's business development unit, for air service and land use development activities. Among Develop Indy priorities: locking in corporate support for additional Indy nonstops, including a transatlantic route.

Schellinger says he is encouraged by recent discussions with key players.

The business community has long considered a dearth of nonstop at Indianapolis International a liability for the Indianapolis region and state of Indiana.

Efforts by the airport, business community and organizations including the Indiana Chamber of Commerce, Indy Chamber, Indiana Economic Development Corporation and VisitIndy are paying dividends. The airport’s nonstop flight count is now at 47, the highest number since the current terminal opened in 2008.

According to the Secretary of Commerce they were in London a few weeks ago, and last week they were in talks about a direct flight to Amsterdam

"we'll have something to talk about in a matter of months." if that isn't encouraging I don't know what is.... great things to come....

Well that basically confirms a flight to London. Who do you all think it will be? I am betting a BA 788.

They had talked about AA at one point, but you are right all signs seem to be pointing to BA running a 788 to LHR, they have the slots at LHR to make this flight happen at LHR instead of LGW. I am surprised about the AMS flight though, shows DL hasn't forgotten about IND.

I'll say Norwegian to CDG just for something different. They have been expanding a bunch lately.

It will be great if it does start, but I'm still slightly doubtful, for its starting to seem like a common theme where each mid sized American city's leadership says there is a TATL on the way every couple of weeks. As for routes maybe Norwegian to LGW, CDG or obviously BA. Can a 757 737 max or a321 neo make it to Europe (not including Iceland) from IND?

Having something to talk about in a matter of months could mean anything. First of "months" could be years. I mean technically 3 years is 36 months. AMS is an interesting addition to the story. For a while the talk had been LHR and FRA. But I think we have to be realistic about FRA. IND is looking for a business route and who would serve FRA? The only real option to satisfy business travelers would have been LH and they simply are not going to start IND service. It would be completely out of character for them. AMS would be a great addition. It could be DL or KL.

Indy wrote:

Having something to talk about in a matter of months could mean anything. First of "months" could be years. I mean technically 3 years is 36 months. AMS is an interesting addition to the story. For a while the talk had been LHR and FRA. But I think we have to be realistic about FRA. IND is looking for a business route and who would serve FRA? The only real option to satisfy business travelers would have been LH and they simply are not going to start IND service. It would be completely out of character for them. AMS would be a great addition. It could be DL or KL.

Wow very pessimistic, when I talked to the Secretary of Commerce earlier this summer he said by the end of the year, "so in a matter of months" means by the end of the year. If he wanted to say years he would have, but he said months. DY to LGW/CDG would be great, but it will likely be the BA 788 and then likely 757 DL to AMS

Midwestindy wrote:

Indy wrote:

Having something to talk about in a matter of months could mean anything. First of "months" could be years. I mean technically 3 years is 36 months. AMS is an interesting addition to the story. For a while the talk had been LHR and FRA. But I think we have to be realistic about FRA. IND is looking for a business route and who would serve FRA? The only real option to satisfy business travelers would have been LH and they simply are not going to start IND service. It would be completely out of character for them. AMS would be a great addition. It could be DL or KL.

Wow very pessimistic, when I talked to the Secretary of Commerce earlier this summer he said by the end of the year, "so in a matter of months" means by the end of the year. If he wanted to say years he would have, but he said months. DY to LGW/CDG would be great, but it will likely be the BA 788 and then likely 757 DL to AMS

Just out of curiosity, What makes your so sure it will be BA with all the other options?

Does a 757 have the legs for IND-AMS?

Midwestindy wrote:

Wow very pessimistic, when I talked to the Secretary of Commerce earlier this summer he said by the end of the year, "so in a matter of months" means by the end of the year. If he wanted to say years he would have, but he said months. DY to LGW/CDG would be great, but it will likely be the BA 788 and then likely 757 DL to AMS

I was being sarcastic and making fun of the political/public figure types. I've heard the stories that they want something announced by the end of the year. Just being realistic. Just because you want something and offer up money doesn't mean an airline will sign on the dotted light. That isn't being pessimistic. That is just a reality based view of IND life.

Jshank83 wrote:

Just out of curiosity, What makes your so sure it will be BA with all the other options?

Does a 757 have the legs for IND-AMS?

757 range with full payload is 7,130km, IND-AMS is 6702km.

BA is the most likely, as the airport has made it public that they have been speaking with BA and have visited London on various occasions to push for these flights. Norwegian hasn't across the lips of anyone talking about TATL flights, so that is why BA is likely to be first. LH & AF aren't going to IND anytime soon, Condor maybe, but again not very likely until at least the LON flights are secured. So really that only leaves WW/FI/BA/DL. FI/WW are out at least for now, because IND is pushing for business routes. So, really even without IND saying it directly, BA will likely be the first.

Indy wrote:

I was being sarcastic and making fun of the political/public figure types. I've heard the stories that they want something announced by the end of the year. Just being realistic. Just because you want something and offer up money doesn't mean an airline will sign on the dotted light. That isn't being pessimistic. That is just a reality based view of IND life.

I can understand your scepticism, but now it's different. Earlier this year I was just as sceptical as you, and then the Gov. of Indiana changed the whole equation. And now, no time in the past 3 years has their been so much momentum for a TATL flight, and I would be shocked if this doesn't come together by November/December. If you look around, there has been little to no talk from local media in CMH/CLE/MKE about TATL flights, so when I hear "within the year" from the state/city/airport/and local media it is all a good indication that TATL is coming.

Indy wrote:

I wonder how crazy the airport idea really is. The 2,200 acres is more than 3 times the size of MDW and slightly bigger than MKE. If any city were to propose a 2nd airport, would there be a better location? This spot is pretty wide open. Not much development around it yet. It is also on the exact opposite side of town of the current airport. It is also located close to the most affluent part of the metro area. This could offer up service to limited business destinations as well as cargo operations. It would certainly offer a huge economic boost to an area already rapidly growing. While I don't see much need for one right now, the best time to plan and get the land is while the land is still cheap and the area isn't overly developed.

That said... I am rooting for a theme park.

I'm going to say it was a package for FoxComm, maker of iPhone parts. Indy was one of the locations in the running for a new US plant. (as was LAN)

Midwestindy wrote:

I can understand your scepticism, but now it's different. Earlier this year I was just as sceptical as you, and then the Gov. of Indiana changed the whole equation. And now, no time in the past 3 years has their been so much momentum for a TATL flight, and I would be shocked if this doesn't come together by November/December. If you look around, there has been little to no talk from local media in CMH/CLE/MKE about TATL flights, so when I hear "within the year" from the state/city/airport/and local media it is all a good indication that TATL is coming.

If it is going to happen this year then I think it will happen in the next 3 to 3-1/2 months. I think if it hasn't happened by mid November then the earliest we will see TATL service will be summer 2019.

Midwestindy wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

Just out of curiosity, What makes your so sure it will be BA with all the other options?

Does a 757 have the legs for IND-AMS?

757 range with full payload is 7,130km, IND-AMS is 6702km.

BA is the most likely, as the airport has made it public that they have been speaking with BA and have visited London on various occasions to push for these flights. Norwegian hasn't across the lips of anyone talking about TATL flights, so that is why BA is likely to be first. LH & AF aren't going to IND anytime soon, Condor maybe, but again not very likely until at least the LON flights are secured. So really that only leaves WW/FI/BA/DL. FI/WW are out at least for now, because IND is pushing for business routes. So, really even without IND saying it directly, BA will likely be the first.

Indy wrote:

I was being sarcastic and making fun of the political/public figure types. I've heard the stories that they want something announced by the end of the year. Just being realistic. Just because you want something and offer up money doesn't mean an airline will sign on the dotted light. That isn't being pessimistic. That is just a reality based view of IND life.

I can understand your scepticism, but now it's different. Earlier this year I was just as sceptical as you, and then the Gov. of Indiana changed the whole equation. And now, no time in the past 3 years has their been so much momentum for a TATL flight, and I would be shocked if this doesn't come together by November/December. If you look around, there has been little to no talk from local media in CMH/CLE/MKE about TATL flights, so when I hear "within the year" from the state/city/airport/and local media it is all a good indication that TATL is coming.

This is all very interesting. Indy is definitely overdue for TATL service, so it will be interesting to see what happens. I'll bet it is BA on a 788 to start with like MSY. I'd think a AMS or CDG flight on DL would be the next logical choice for IND.

I do wonder if BA will make more than once announcement this fall for TATL service? It seems they are ending a few destinations from LHR this fall as well as shifting the ORY flight to LCY; all this might open up a few spots. With BNA upgrading their IAB on an interim basis, combined with a major announcement this fall regarding the BNA Vision (according to the news), that tells me they are getting close to landing TATL service as well. I wouldn't say it's likely, but I would not put it out of the realm of possibility that both IND-LHR and BNA-LHR are announced at the same time.

If not, then likely BA will announce IND this year and then BNA in 2018 (to give them some time to adjust to the new customs facility).

I'd suggest that CMH would be a better Rust Belt choice for BA due to a growing economy and its ideal, almost equidistant location between PIT, CLE, IND & CVG, with SVF not far away either.

In fact IND would be a huge surprise in my view, particularly if chosen ahead of other more likely candidates such as STL, BNA and PDX or even MSP.

TheLion wrote:

I'd suggest that CMH would be a better Rust Belt choice for BA due to a growing economy and its ideal, almost equidistant location between PIT, CLE, IND & CVG, with SVF not far away either.

In fact IND would be a huge surprise in my view, particularly if chosen ahead of other more likely candidates such as STL, BNA and PDX or even MSP.

I respect your opinion, but I'm going to disagree with you there.

Columbus metro is only growing 1.18% faster than the Indianapolis metro, nothing to write home about. CMH isn't going to draw from any of those cities, except CLE and CLE deserves a TATL before CMH. CVG and PIT have their own TATL service, and PIT has low-cost and full service TATL routes. IND pax will drive to ORD, before they go to CMH for a flight.

CMH doesn't have the business connections to europe that IND and STL have, and the last int'l numbers(2013) showed CMH last in pax to Europe in comparison to STL/BNA. That same study showed that CMH had 60,000 less passengers to europe than STL. https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=599DD953

IND has Rolls-Royce, Cummins, Eli Lilly, Roche, e.t.c STL has Inbev, Montsanto, e.t.c

PDX (4), MSP(8) have flights to europe, and flights to LHR already.

Can you expand on your reasoning?

TheLion wrote:

I'd suggest that CMH would be a better Rust Belt choice for BA due to a growing economy and its ideal, almost equidistant location between PIT, CLE, IND & CVG, with SVF not far away either.

In fact IND would be a huge surprise in my view, particularly if chosen ahead of other more likely candidates such as STL, BNA and PDX or even MSP.

IND is a way better choice than CMH IMO. More European business traffic and the potential to be a reliever for ORD.

KLM to AMS would be better for STL IMO, since Panera is owned by a Netherlands-based company.

I've been following these forums for 10+ years and am just getting around to posting. I'm an IND-based flyer and usually fly about 200k miles a year on DL/KL with other trips thrown in there on UA and WN mostly. I've always enjoyed seeing news about IND-related things here.

Not that I have any inside knowledge, etc. but from those with whom I've spoken who were PMNW employees, they claim NW was a summer away from announcing IND-AMS service on a 757 similar to what they ran at BDL for some time. All that talk took a back seat after DL pared down the NW hub and eliminated many routes.

I think if BA does open up at IND, it will mean AA or BA go searching for a way to open a lounge at IND, as the only one currently is a DL SkyClub. There is space in which to do this, but must be repurposed, as I understand it. It would be great for IND and the state to have direct service to Europe. I don't think the direct UA link to San Francisco changed people's lives here, but it has opened up an entire sector to a region that has grown in promise and potential for the tech sector. Now AS is joining in on the fun and UA has added on many days a second frequency.

I don't see this talked about much, but I do think IND is in a way up for grabs among the legacy carriers. And what I wonder is if a TATL flight would be enough to sway a Cummins or Lilly, for instance, to shift their corporate travel to one airline vs another. Might that be enough for another alliance to open up a direct link (thinking of OneWorld goes LHR, does SkyTeam feel the need to add an AMS/CDG flight?). I honestly don't know the size of these contracts and whether that makes a significant difference or not.

Will be interesting to see what happens. Hopefully 'a few months' really means we'll know something by the end of the calendar year. Fingers crossed!

I wonder how many people in NW Indiana would rather drive up/down I-65 to/from IND and clear customs in Indianapolis instead of Chicago. You may find people choosing to go with the less congested international arrival over the zoo that is ORD.

With the suspected announcement of BA service to BNA, I personally am not too optimistic about an IND TATL flight this year. Really hope I'm proved wrong.

Continental767 wrote:

With the suspected announcement of BA service to BNA, I personally am not too optimistic about an IND TATL flight this year. Really hope I'm proved wrong.

They can announce both. Wasn't FLL-LGW announced at the same time as MSY-LHR?

CMH came up in the thread about BA's next TATL flight. That reminded me they had a plan for a new midfield terminal. And that thought reminded me of our midfield terminal plan. That is how my mind gets from point A to point B Anyway. The initial plan called for what we see today. The parking garage as it currently stands, baggage claim and ticketing as we now see it, and the 40 gates that exist today. The plan also detailed the expansion of the midfield terminal around 2020. I know that was just a guideline and not set in stone but the 2020 date is quickly approaching. We are less than 2-1/2 years from that date. Where do things stand now?

Obviously expansion takes considerable planning and funding. This doesn't happen overnight. If IND wanted to have the terminal at phase 2 to start 2020, it would have had to begin yesterday. Likely that didn't happen.

What is phase 2? Phase 2 is an expansion of baggage claim with the addition of at least 1 more claim (I think it was two more). It also expanded ticketing and approximately doubled the parking garage space. It also extended the concourses which added 10 new gates to each side. I think it expanded the field inspection station but I cannot swear to it. I could be completely wrong. Trying to find the PDF file that had all the data but no luck so far. The other parts I am sure of.

Is expansion really necessary in the next 5 years? 10 years? Yes and no. If you went by the way the airport looks at 7am you would say absolutely. The terminal is at capacity when it comes to morning operations. So naturally that means it is at capacity at night. But that leaves a lot of open space. Being a spoke means you face some of the same problems a banked hub faces. You have periods where your airport is a zoo and periods where your airport is dead. Can IND justify expansion to allow more room for service during those banks while the rest of the time the place is quiet? How do you fill that dead space to allow passenger numbers to climb without having to invest in expansion?

There is a big design flaw in IND that could possibly corrected with expansion. The ticketing area is poorly designed. Perhaps expanding would allow the IAA to rethink the layout of the area and allow them the opportunity to redesign one side at a time.

Parking is starting to become a mess. IND is playing far too many game with parking and expansion of the garage may become necessary sooner rather than later. This expansion would not be demand driven as much as mismanagement driven. Economy long term parking is quickly filling up while the old premium economy parking is poorly utilized. I say economy and premium economy when I have no idea what the flavor of the day at IND has them named. Again, they've gone too far with screwing around with parking.

What are your thoughts? How close is IND to needing to implement the 2020 phase of the project? What can they do to make better use of the resources to avoid having to expand so soon?

IND definitely has its flaws, but it is pretty exciting to think that the operations and passenger flows are outgrowing the current facilities. This just shows how much the Indy metro area has been growing over the past few decades.

Looking at the stats, I imagine BNA must have put up some serious money to get LHR now. IND has about 15-20% more passengers flying to London and roughly the same amount more to Europe. If the data I found is correct, fares from IND to LHR are also quite a bit higher than BNA to LHR. Does that mean the incentives were likely better?

Indy wrote:

Looking at the stats, I imagine BNA must have put up some serious money to get LHR now. IND has about 15-20% more passengers flying to London and roughly the same amount more to Europe. If the data I found is correct, fares from IND to LHR are also quite a bit higher than BNA to LHR. Does that mean the incentives were likely better?

1. Which stats are you looking at?

2. With respect to expansion of concourses, no need at all right now, there are times in the day where there are no aircraft at A, and times where there are only 1 or 2 aircraft parked both A and B combined. The mornings can be full, but then again "you don't build a church for easter."

3. Here is the 2001 document that thoroughly details the new terminal http://www.indairport.org/downloads/mid ... lowres.pdf

4. I was with someone from IAA a couple weeks ago, and they were discussing expanding the ticketing facility with me, but not sure of the timeline for that. There is still space in the ticking and baggage claim areas so expansion isn't needed for a while

5. I saw a G4 A319 or A320 parked outside AAR yesterday, probably just for maintenance, but definitely going to become a common occurrence at IND by 2017

Midwestindy wrote:

1. Which stats are you looking at?

2. With respect to expansion of concourses, no need at all right now, there are times in the day where there are no aircraft at A, and times where there are only 1 or 2 aircraft parked both A and B combined. The mornings can be full, but then again "you don't build a church for easter."

3. Here is the 2001 document that thoroughly details the new terminal http://www.indairport.org/downloads/mid ... lowres.pdf

4. I was with someone from IAA a couple weeks ago, and they were discussing expanding the ticketing facility with me, but not sure of the timeline for that. There is still space in the ticking and baggage claim areas so expansion isn't needed for a while

5. I saw a G4 A319 or A320 parked outside AAR yesterday, probably just for maintenance, but definitely going to become a common occurrence at IND by 2017

I was looking at a combination of stats shared earlier in this discussion. Some of the stats might have been yours. It was a combination of 2011 and 2013 numbers. In 2013 BNA had 26,075 passengers to London. In 2011 IND had 30,732. Chances are INDs numbers were higher in 2013. If I had a rough guess I would say 5k more passengers served to London than BNA. In 2013 BNA had 132,487 passengers served to Europe. In 2011 IND had 151,772 to Europe. Those numbers are a pretty big difference.

Regarding your comment #2... I agree that you can't build a church for Easter. So what do you do to fill seats on days that aren't Easter or Christmas? Not having more space for morning flights may be hurting expansion. But you can't please everyone. So there has to be a way to fill the void during the day. I think IND may need to look at incentives for off hour flights. Maybe reduced fees during slow periods.

Regarding #3... lol that is my website. I completely forgot I had that document there. I haven't updated the site in a very long time. I really need to get back to work on it but I have so much coding to do to allow people to post content on there again. I completely rewrote the software for the site.

Regarding #4... perhaps the way the terminal was built allows them to easily expand some areas and not others. So no need to go to a full 2020 plan. Just implement changes as needed.

And finally #5... It will be interesting to see how this base works out and how it influences G4 expansion at IND.

Indy wrote:

Looking at the stats, I imagine BNA must have put up some serious money to get LHR now. IND has about 15-20% more passengers flying to London and roughly the same amount more to Europe. If the data I found is correct, fares from IND to LHR are also quite a bit higher than BNA to LHR. Does that mean the incentives were likely better?

BNA's incentives are capped at 2 mil for the LHR flight. I don't know if that is a per year number or over multi years number.

Jshank83 wrote:

BNA's incentives are capped at 2 mil for the LHR flight. I don't know if that is a per year number or over multi years number.

If that is the case then it really makes no sense that they get the service ahead of IND. Unless of course the announcement is still coming and they happened to announce that one first for whatever reason. Maybe because of the leak? I still think IND is going to get AMS but just based on the numbers IND should have gotten LHR ahead of BNA.