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Midwestindy
Posts: 1181
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:32 am

Cubsrule wrote:

While most of my data are anecdotal, I suspect that Asia may be more stimulable (at least on paper) because I think there's a lot more double ticketing going on to Asia. From a market like IND (or CVG or BNA), there are still a lot of Asia itineraries where a stop and multiple tickets make sense. A nonstop to an Asian hub would change that.

Is IND's East Asia demand pretty TYO-centric? Or would ICN make more sense post-JV?


IND's East Asia demand is pretty spread out... But ICN is bigger O&D but not by a lot
1.Shanghai:12,086 +383.1%
2.Seoul:10,854 +76.9%
3.Beijing: 9,371 +174.6%
4.Tokyo: 9,196 -32.4%

CVG's East Asia demand is pretty spread out as well I believe... but Tokyo(6,342) is larger than ICN(4,826)

BNA is more TYO centric
1.Tokyo:11,327 -12.3%
2.Seoul:6,932-+36.9%
 
IndEagle
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:44 am

kavok wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Switching gears from TATL talk.... I saw it mentioned in another thread, but what are the chances that IND gets TPAC service in the next decade?

Hear me out...

Among all U.S. states, Indiana has the largest amount of Japanese investment per capita and is the only state that is home to three Japanese automotive original equipment manufacturer companies.

Toshiba, Sony, Subaru, Honda, Mitsubishi, Aisin, Hitachi, Toyota, and a lot of other major Japanese companies have large presences around IND.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us

Furthermore, Lilly, Cummins, Simon Property Group, and other Indiana companies have lots of travel to and from Asia. Plus Purdue and IU close by could help as well.

In terms of Pax to Developed Asia-Pacific and Developing Asia-Pacific (both ways combined) here is how IND compared in 2011
IND: 97,994.756 (+126.9%) PIT: 91,168.97(+111.3%) STL:112,233(+108%) CVG:81,931(+100.7%) BNA:70,341(+122.5%) MSY:83,343(+43%) CMH:93,230(+101.3%) CLE: 90,508(+103.1%) + CAK:5,499(+136.3%) AUS:120,768(+93.6%) + SAT:59,556(+108.0%) RDU:134,350(+159%) MCI:80,311(+103.4%)

In terms of total Pax: 1.AUS/SAT 2.RDU 3.STL 4.IND 5.CMH 6.CLE/CAK 7.PIT 8.MSY 9.CVG 10.MCI 11.BNA
In terms of Growth: 1.RDU 2.CAK 3.IND 4.BNA 5.PIT 6.STL 6.SAT 7.MCI 8.CLE 9.CMH 10.CVG 11.AUS 12.MSY

I'm interested to hear what peoples thoughts are on the possibility of it happening within the decade...



Think of it this way, on a given day in the summer there are around 250 to 300 commercial jets flying between the USA and Europe. (Someone with better data can provide the exact average number). Of those 250 to 300 jets, a portion of those passengers is made up of pax near IND, and tat portion is big enough to fill at least one of those jets. For that reason, it is not unreasonable to see 1 of those 250 to 300 jets go to IND, thus giving IND a TATL flight.

Now let's look at TPAC flights from USA (lower 48, so not Hawaii) to East Asia (Japan, Korea, China, etc.). Of those flights, there are maybe only 40 daily flights. Further, much less than 1/40 of the TPAC traffic is not going to/from IND. And since IND is not a hub, it doesn't make sense to funnel pax from other markets there.

Long story short, it is much easier to justify getting 1 of the 300 TATL flights than it is to obtain 1 of the only 40 daily TPAC flights.


I do believe you just made the argument for IND having an easier time landing a TPAC than a TATL as 1/40th is a much larger portion than 1/300th
 
IndEagle
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:06 am

Midwestindy wrote:
IndEagle wrote:
RE; IND-AMS, as hip as it may be, weighs in at #24 on the brookings institute report (2011) -14.3%, 5492 pax/yr and would be good for hardly any o&d and probably cannibalize our chances for LHR, FRA, ect.... due to it's proximity. I also don't know of any direct business ties.
In order according to the report;
London 30,732 pax/yr -4.6% over 2003
FRA 13,932 -17.9%
CDG 10,785 -11.7%
FCO 7,546 +49.3%
Manchester, UK 6,375 23.1%
Both the UK and Germany have other cities outside of their main airports with additional business / o&d ties that would make them the most logical choice ie. BA, DE as LH seems to be out of the picture. Not sure why DE was never mentioned publicly yet AMS was.


Interesting, the business ties to AMS I am aware of have to do with Lilly, ALSN, and Cummins, here are some more http://economicties.org/state/indiana/ although you are right there aren't as many...

One thing that is important to note is that (Global Air Volume:$106 million)Lilly's air suppliers are: Southwest(US), United (TPAC), and Delta(US/Europe)
(Global Air Volume: $308 million) Roche's are: American, British, Delta, Lufthansa, Swiss, United

So any carrier whether it is BA/DE/DL/e.t.c will want to have contracts with those two companies(which DL does) + plus contracts RR and Cummins(No idea what their biz travel situation is)

Therefore, DL is probably at an advantage over BA in terms of corporate contracts and considering they operate two main hubs in Europe, CDG and AMS are the most likely for TATL service.
In terms of O&D, CDG makes more sense than AMS, considering the aerospace industry in Indiana and other French businesses around Central Indiana. But, perhaps DL/KL are trying to beef up AMS, considering they just added MCO-AMS.

O&D wise UK/Ireland would make more sense: Delphi, RR, Lilly, Cummins, Salesforce MC, Allegion, Appirio, ALSN, e.t.c.

Also one reason why I think DE wasn't mentioned was because of the fact that it is a "leisure" airline, and the airport is looking more for a "business" type airline. Germany would have been great but in terms of LH there is hardly any UA FFs in IND, even though Evonik, ThyssenKrupp, Festool, e.t.c have large presences in Central Indiana.


Thanks! That's intersting information on the both the business travel vs cargo side.
Condor does have business class and lounges at their interline airports as well as great connections throughout europe and interline agreements ;
airBaltic, Air Dolomiti, Air North, Alaska Airlines, Austrian Airlines, BahamasAir, Copa Airlines, Czech Airlines, Gol Transportes, Aéreos, LOT Polish Airlines, Lufthansa, Sun Country Airlines, Swiss International Air Lines, Volaris
The FF program is the same as LH so I assume they are also part of Star alliance.

So, some good questions are;
Are local companies more loyal to DL or whatever airline get's them to where they want to go?
What's tips the scale for the flight biz pax or cargo?
Would biz pax be satisfied with DE?

I still believe we have enough demand for 1 of each BA to LHR and DE to FRA
And the competition will keep prices in check as well as position IND ahead of other midwestern cities for future expansion.
 
kavok
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:12 pm

IndEagle wrote:
kavok wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Switching gears from TATL talk.... I saw it mentioned in another thread, but what are the chances that IND gets TPAC service in the next decade?

Hear me out...

Among all U.S. states, Indiana has the largest amount of Japanese investment per capita and is the only state that is home to three Japanese automotive original equipment manufacturer companies.

Toshiba, Sony, Subaru, Honda, Mitsubishi, Aisin, Hitachi, Toyota, and a lot of other major Japanese companies have large presences around IND.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=us

Furthermore, Lilly, Cummins, Simon Property Group, and other Indiana companies have lots of travel to and from Asia. Plus Purdue and IU close by could help as well.

In terms of Pax to Developed Asia-Pacific and Developing Asia-Pacific (both ways combined) here is how IND compared in 2011
IND: 97,994.756 (+126.9%) PIT: 91,168.97(+111.3%) STL:112,233(+108%) CVG:81,931(+100.7%) BNA:70,341(+122.5%) MSY:83,343(+43%) CMH:93,230(+101.3%) CLE: 90,508(+103.1%) + CAK:5,499(+136.3%) AUS:120,768(+93.6%) + SAT:59,556(+108.0%) RDU:134,350(+159%) MCI:80,311(+103.4%)

In terms of total Pax: 1.AUS/SAT 2.RDU 3.STL 4.IND 5.CMH 6.CLE/CAK 7.PIT 8.MSY 9.CVG 10.MCI 11.BNA
In terms of Growth: 1.RDU 2.CAK 3.IND 4.BNA 5.PIT 6.STL 6.SAT 7.MCI 8.CLE 9.CMH 10.CVG 11.AUS 12.MSY

I'm interested to hear what peoples thoughts are on the possibility of it happening within the decade...



Think of it this way, on a given day in the summer there are around 250 to 300 commercial jets flying between the USA and Europe. (Someone with better data can provide the exact average number). Of those 250 to 300 jets, a portion of those passengers is made up of pax near IND, and tat portion is big enough to fill at least one of those jets. For that reason, it is not unreasonable to see 1 of those 250 to 300 jets go to IND, thus giving IND a TATL flight.

Now let's look at TPAC flights from USA (lower 48, so not Hawaii) to East Asia (Japan, Korea, China, etc.). Of those flights, there are maybe only 40 daily flights. Further, much less than 1/40 of the TPAC traffic is not going to/from IND. And since IND is not a hub, it doesn't make sense to funnel pax from other markets there.

Long story short, it is much easier to justify getting 1 of the 300 TATL flights than it is to obtain 1 of the only 40 daily TPAC flights.


I do believe you just made the argument for IND having an easier time landing a TPAC than a TATL as 1/40th is a much larger portion than 1/300th


Just the opposite. The argument is basically since 1/300 is smaller than 1/40, it is much easier to achieve 1/300 of the TATL market share than to achieve 1/40 the TPAC market share.

Further, Indy already has 1/300 of the TATLmarket share, so it is probably just a matter of time before a TATL route gets set up. However, IND is unfortunately well short of the 1/40 TPAC share, so I can't see that one starting anytime soon.
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:13 pm

I remember when TPAC was at the top of the wishlist for the Indianapolis Airport Authority. I guess the numbers posted earlier explain why.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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flymco753
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:17 pm

I saw Indianapolis wants Mexico service too, what would be the most logical option in y'alls opinion? AM is in their new partnership with DL, so until other large airports or DL hubs get AM, I don't see IND getting AM, but Viva Aerobus or Interjet OTOH...
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:31 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

While most of my data are anecdotal, I suspect that Asia may be more stimulable (at least on paper) because I think there's a lot more double ticketing going on to Asia. From a market like IND (or CVG or BNA), there are still a lot of Asia itineraries where a stop and multiple tickets make sense. A nonstop to an Asian hub would change that.

Is IND's East Asia demand pretty TYO-centric? Or would ICN make more sense post-JV?


IND's East Asia demand is pretty spread out... But ICN is bigger O&D but not by a lot
1.Shanghai:12,086 +383.1%
2.Seoul:10,854 +76.9%
3.Beijing: 9,371 +174.6%
4.Tokyo: 9,196 -32.4%

CVG's East Asia demand is pretty spread out as well I believe... but Tokyo(6,342) is larger than ICN(4,826)

BNA is more TYO centric
1.Tokyo:11,327 -12.3%
2.Seoul:6,932-+36.9%


Between DL's share of the market in general, the Skyclub (which helps but certainly isn't dispositive) and the O&D numbers, it seems to me that ICN is probably a better fit for IND than is TYO. In that regard, perhaps IND isn't competing for TPAC with some of the peer cities as directly as you assume. BNA-ICN, for instance, would be a disaster.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:49 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I saw Indianapolis wants Mexico service too, what would be the most logical option in y'alls opinion? AM is in their new partnership with DL, so until other large airports or DL hubs get AM, I don't see IND getting AM, but Viva Aerobus or Interjet OTOH...


I think it was stated that IND wanted service to Mexico City, (but I'm interested to see where you heard that). Right now that is a pipe dream. VivaAerobus, AM, and Interjet have larger markets to serve before they get to IND(don't have O&D on this but I will check when I get back to IND). More likely is some G4 expansion on Mexico-IND in the next 1-3 years.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:36 am

Midwestindy wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I saw Indianapolis wants Mexico service too, what would be the most logical option in y'alls opinion? AM is in their new partnership with DL, so until other large airports or DL hubs get AM, I don't see IND getting AM, but Viva Aerobus or Interjet OTOH...


I think it was stated that IND wanted service to Mexico City, (but I'm interested to see where you heard that). Right now that is a pipe dream. VivaAerobus, AM, and Interjet have larger markets to serve before they get to IND(don't have O&D on this but I will check when I get back to IND). More likely is some G4 expansion on Mexico-IND in the next 1-3 years.


Sorry for the late edit but I just pulled up the numbers and 2011 MEX-IND:13,338 pax, compared to other spokes IND-MEX had more pax than AUS(already has MEX service), PIT, MSY, STL, BNA, CMH, CVG, CLE/CAK, MKE, MEM, BDL, MCI, e.t.c. So I think once MSP/RDU/ and then maybe TPA get service I think IND would probably soon follow.

Although, I still think G4 service to CUN and Mexico will happen sooner than AM in IND
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:33 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I saw Indianapolis wants Mexico service too, what would be the most logical option in y'alls opinion? AM is in their new partnership with DL, so until other large airports or DL hubs get AM, I don't see IND getting AM, but Viva Aerobus or Interjet OTOH...


I think it was stated that IND wanted service to Mexico City, (but I'm interested to see where you heard that). Right now that is a pipe dream. VivaAerobus, AM, and Interjet have larger markets to serve before they get to IND(don't have O&D on this but I will check when I get back to IND). More likely is some G4 expansion on Mexico-IND in the next 1-3 years.


Sorry for the late edit but I just pulled up the numbers and 2011 MEX-IND:13,338 pax, compared to other spokes IND-MEX had more pax than AUS(already has MEX service), PIT, MSY, STL, BNA, CMH, CVG, CLE/CAK, MKE, MEM, BDL, MCI, e.t.c. So I think once MSP/RDU/ and then maybe TPA get service I think IND would probably soon follow.

Although, I still think G4 service to CUN and Mexico will happen sooner than AM in IND


If PIT sand CVG get G4 CUN And Punta Cana next year IND will follow quickly as we've see lately. IND is almost mimicking CVG with their routes.
 
flyboy80
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:03 am

Does DL still operate winter seasonal IND-Caribbean, albeit 1x weekly? Didn't DL have mainline to CUN in the past, Sat only?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:23 am

flyboy80 wrote:
Does DL still operate winter seasonal IND-Caribbean, albeit 1x weekly? Didn't DL have mainline to CUN in the past, Sat only?


The last time DL operated IND-MBJ was 2015, but has since ended it and I am not sure why though considering average LFs were around 80%.
I believe DL IND-NAS up until 2015, but I don't have stats on those flights

DL mainline IND-CUN is 1x weekly December-August
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:57 pm

Looks like another city just picked up TATL service. CLE has landed Icelandair.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:01 pm

Indy wrote:
Looks like another city just picked up TATL service. CLE has landed Icelandair.


The case for IND is getting better and better considering CLE and IND were the top 2 unserved markets from Europe, and BNA was 3rd. Only a matter of time!
 
kavok
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Indy wrote:
Looks like another city just picked up TATL service. CLE has landed Icelandair.


The case for IND is getting better and better considering CLE and IND were the top 2 unserved markets from Europe, and BNA was 3rd. Only a matter of time!


Hopefully IND's TATL is something other than FI or WoW.

Yes, it is cool to say your airport has TATL service, but from a passenger experience... connecting in KEF is arguably worse than connecting in DTW, ORD, PHL, etc. (unless of course you are spending time in Iceland).

Simply put, there aren't many airports in Europe that you can get to nonstop from KEF that you can't get to nonstop from ORD, DTW, PHL. And if you are thus forced to make a connection,much better to do it at the US airport that has frequent service to IND, better IRROPs scenarios, and have one long flight where you can try to get a few hours of sleep on the way there (as opposed to a shorter flight to KEF). There is a reason FI and WoW market as LC carriers.

The advantage to getting BA/AA to LHR, or DL/KLM to AMS is that both LHR and AMS offer numerous European and West Asian connections opportunities that could be one stop from IND. That is the real prize. KEF is more just for show.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:04 pm

kavok wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Indy wrote:
Looks like another city just picked up TATL service. CLE has landed Icelandair.


The case for IND is getting better and better considering CLE and IND were the top 2 unserved markets from Europe, and BNA was 3rd. Only a matter of time!


Hopefully IND's TATL is something other than FI or WoW.

Yes, it is cool to say your airport has TATL service, but from a passenger experience... connecting in KEF is arguably worse than connecting in DTW, ORD, PHL, etc. (unless of course you are spending time in Iceland).

Simply put, there aren't many airports in Europe that you can get to nonstop from KEF that you can't get to nonstop from ORD, DTW, PHL. And if you are thus forced to make a connection,much better to do it at the US airport that has frequent service to IND, better IRROPs scenarios, and have one long flight where you can try to get a few hours of sleep on the way there (as opposed to a shorter flight to KEF). There is a reason FI and WoW market as LC carriers.

The advantage to getting BA/AA to LHR, or DL/KLM to AMS is that both LHR and AMS offer numerous European and West Asian connections opportunities that could be one stop from IND. That is the real prize. KEF is more just for show.



100% agree. Every time I see another airport get one of these airlines I am happy it isn't mine (and mine doesn't have TATL service yet). I don't mind if they come but I don't want them first in.
 
TerminalD
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:10 pm

Indy wrote:
Looks like another city just picked up TATL service. CLE has landed Icelandair.

I think IND will have Iceland very soon as well.
 
flyboy80
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:10 pm

Does LHR (leading for PDEW) vs AMS and CDG really make A large difference; aren't most IND- Europe pax connecting to a variety of European, West Asia/ Middle East, and even Africa destinations? Shouldn't the TATL winner be a carrier with the most viable connections vs US hubs?
 
indygs
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:30 pm

I know LHR is the leading market, but I think this really comes down to which carrier/alliance (if any) want to position themselves well for seamless transfers to points beyond. I fly frequently to East Africa and until recently those destinations were served non-stop from LHR on BA as well as KL via AMS. If they were still served by BA, I'd consider switching my allegiance for a non-stop to LHR. But with KL the only one left, IND-AMS is personally more appealing b/c I could get to my final destination far more quickly with AMS service. That's just me--but I really see this as who not only can serve a route with high demand but which alliance wants to take an upper-hand at a mid-tier US airport.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:46 pm

TerminalD wrote:
Indy wrote:
Looks like another city just picked up TATL service. CLE has landed Icelandair.

I think IND will have Iceland very soon as well.


Hopefully not... or at least not until BA/DL start TATL from IND. Plus IND and the state have made it clear that they want "business" carrier(DL/BA/AA/UA/e.t.c) first instead of a LCC/ULCC(FI/WW/DY/e.t.c)
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:26 am

With STL/DTW/CLE/CVG getting WOW!, and FI I think the chances for DL/BA in IND have gone way up...
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:41 am

Midwestindy wrote:
With STL/DTW/CLE/CVG getting WOW!, and FI I think the chances for DL/BA in IND have gone way up...


Agreed. As I said in the other thread, there's not really a good alternate explanation for passing over IND.
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chalupas54
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:43 am

Midwestindy wrote:
With STL/DTW/CLE/CVG getting WOW!, and FI I think the chances for DL/BA in IND have gone way up...


Actually, this is not a good sign. WOW passing over IND is a legitimate problem. STL, DTW, CVG and CLE are very likely to be unsubsidized routes. The fact that they passed up IND I think is a red flag.
 
floridaflyboy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:21 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
Indy wrote:
Looks like another city just picked up TATL service. CLE has landed Icelandair.

I think IND will have Iceland very soon as well.


Hopefully not... or at least not until BA/DL start TATL from IND. Plus IND and the state have made it clear that they want "business" carrier(DL/BA/AA/UA/e.t.c) first instead of a LCC/ULCC(FI/WW/DY/e.t.c)


While as an IND resident, I do agree with your sentiment, the state/city/airport authority certainly aren't going to say "go away" if FI/WW come knocking.
Good goes around!
 
indygs
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:31 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
With STL/DTW/CLE/CVG getting WOW!, and FI I think the chances for DL/BA in IND have gone way up...


Actually, this is not a good sign. WOW passing over IND is a legitimate problem. STL, DTW, CVG and CLE are very likely to be unsubsidized routes. The fact that they passed up IND I think is a red flag.


Not sure I would agree. As I understand it, the subsidy has certain metrics that need to be met in terms of destination(s), seats offered, frequencies, etc. Its highly likely that WOW would not meet any of the criteria necessary to get a subsidy for IND service. Perhaps the other airports offered some sort of concessions knowing there are no other legacy carriers coming in with new TATL flights. If you're IND, you have to protect your ground in the event a BA or DL does come in and start a new service. You don't want it cannibalized by a LCC in a market where that could easily happen (WN at IND is a good example).

At this point I would be very surprised if IND doesn't have some sort of announcement in the next couple months. They've always prided themselves on being a regionally attractive airport -- especially as a CVG alternative, and to be the odd man out after WOW's entrance to these markets wouldn't sit well with IAA.

PS: Jokingly, I also suggest flights to KEF be known here on out as mid-transatlantic flights (MTATL) to help differentiate from true TATL flights that get you all the way to the other side of the pond :)
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:33 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
With STL/DTW/CLE/CVG getting WOW!, and FI I think the chances for DL/BA in IND have gone way up...


Actually, this is not a good sign. WOW passing over IND is a legitimate problem. STL, DTW, CVG and CLE are very likely to be unsubsidized routes. The fact that they passed up IND I think is a red flag.


The sky is not falling in IND, IND is now by far the largest unserved TATL market from Europe and has the highest average fare to LHR, and now if BA/DL were to announce something they would have no ULCC/LCC competition. These factors make IND really attractive for the next DL/BA TATL flight, and as I said earlier I think this only increases the likelihood of BA/DL announcing IND-Europe by the end of the year. I also think CLE/CVG/DTW were better fitted for ULCC service to Europe than IND, STL could be debatable, but I'm thinking STL maybe didn't want to wait for BA to add service...

I think this conversation would be a lot different though if BA would have announced STL today.....
 
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flymco753
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:20 pm

Problem is with STL is they'll begin stimulating markets quicker and with IND being surrounded by CVG and STL, until IND gets a TATL flight, than bleed is a possibility, which is why I hope to see someone do IND, I'd hate to see numbers crumble after record breaking years.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:28 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Problem is with STL is they'll begin stimulating markets quicker and with IND being surrounded by CVG and STL, until IND gets a TATL flight, than bleed is a possibility, which is why I hope to see someone do IND, I'd hate to see numbers crumble after record breaking years.


STL is too far for there to be any bleed between the two. IND has also been bleeding to ORD for decades and still has strong numbers so that isn't a big concern. IMO, I think IND will have some sort of TATL announced before the new STL/CVG/CLE/DTW routes start up.

I think incentives are maybe part of the reasoning behind why WW didn't announce IND.
 
chalupas54
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:32 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
With STL/DTW/CLE/CVG getting WOW!, and FI I think the chances for DL/BA in IND have gone way up...


Actually, this is not a good sign. WOW passing over IND is a legitimate problem. STL, DTW, CVG and CLE are very likely to be unsubsidized routes. The fact that they passed up IND I think is a red flag.


The sky is not falling in IND, IND is now by far the largest unserved TATL market from Europe and has the highest average fare to LHR, and now if BA/DL were to announce something they would have no ULCC/LCC competition. These factors make IND really attractive for the next DL/BA TATL flight, and as I said earlier I think this only increases the likelihood of BA/DL announcing IND-Europe by the end of the year. I also think CLE/CVG/DTW were better fitted for ULCC service to Europe than IND, STL could be debatable, but I'm thinking STL maybe didn't want to wait for BA to add service...

I think this conversation would be a lot different though if BA would have announced STL today.....


Unfortunately, Kansas City MCI is higher than IND in terms of pax yield. Thankfully for IND however, MCI is not actively pursuing TATL due to various problems at the airport. From what's understood from the STL presser, very minimal subsidies were given. Also, I don't think WW's announcement dampens any STL march to LHR.
 
upgrademe2First
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:52 pm

Good to see some of these smaller cities finally getting TATL. I am sure IND will be soon. Everyone on this site loves aviation and wants their city to be thought of as the next great US City. (The next Denver, Portland, Austin or Seattle) There are many factors that go into an airline decision to start new service. Corporate presence is clearly one of them, along with population. Nobody really talks about actual demand. Not just the Brookings Institute info but demand on the street-the mentality of the masses.

Do your friends sit around talking about going to Europe? Just because Toyota or Rolls Royce might build parts in Indiana doesn’t mean that their employees are sitting around talking about a vacation in Europe. I live in Colorado now but grew up in Indiana so I see things in several ways. I thought about travel to Europe all of the time, just like many people on this site. However, many people I know didn’t and still don’t. I’m talking college educated AND blue collar. Nobody seemed to really care when I said I was heading to Paris or London. Many of my friends graduated from Indiana, Purdue, Ball State (great school) Notre Dame, etc. But they seemed more interested in going to Mexico or driving to Florida for vacation-they looked at me like I was crazy when I would talk about Rick Steves and getting a Eurail pass.

I’ve read some of these posts analyzing ‘Which flight to Europe will we get first? or analyzing that IND might get multiple flights all at the same time’. FI is a great start if it happens. Baby steps. I just don’t see BA coming to IND anytime soon. I hope I am wrong and they make an announcement soon.

The recent BA adds all made sense.

BNA -underserved market, country music epicenter
SJC-Silicon Valley $$$ Giant population
AUS- wealthy, educated area with no competition.
MSY-historically, top 5 tourist destination in the US

I am just trying to come at this from a different angle. Denver has nearly 60 million passengers a year and (until 3 months ago) our choices to Europe were limited aka terrible. We had the demand, we had people who sat around and said “I wish that we had a non-stop to Paris” we have a high percentage of the population with college degrees and work in high paying jobs. But we still had to beg United to start service. Only when competition came to Denver did United take notice and start new service. FI is a great start if it can happen for IND.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:57 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:

Actually, this is not a good sign. WOW passing over IND is a legitimate problem. STL, DTW, CVG and CLE are very likely to be unsubsidized routes. The fact that they passed up IND I think is a red flag.


The sky is not falling in IND, IND is now by far the largest unserved TATL market from Europe and has the highest average fare to LHR, and now if BA/DL were to announce something they would have no ULCC/LCC competition. These factors make IND really attractive for the next DL/BA TATL flight, and as I said earlier I think this only increases the likelihood of BA/DL announcing IND-Europe by the end of the year. I also think CLE/CVG/DTW were better fitted for ULCC service to Europe than IND, STL could be debatable, but I'm thinking STL maybe didn't want to wait for BA to add service...

I think this conversation would be a lot different though if BA would have announced STL today.....


Unfortunately, Kansas City MCI is higher than IND in terms of pax yield. Thankfully for IND however, MCI is not actively pursuing TATL due to various problems at the airport. From what's understood from the STL presser, very minimal subsidies were given. Also, I don't think WW's announcement dampens any STL march to LHR.


Why do you think MCI is higher in terms of pax yield? http://www.aci-na.org/sites/default/fil ... slides.pdf MCI isn't on there but according to the powerpoint from ACI north america IND had higher yields than AUS, MSY, and STL all of which were higher yielding than MCI according to SabreMI 2013.
 
chalupas54
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:08 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

The sky is not falling in IND, IND is now by far the largest unserved TATL market from Europe and has the highest average fare to LHR, and now if BA/DL were to announce something they would have no ULCC/LCC competition. These factors make IND really attractive for the next DL/BA TATL flight, and as I said earlier I think this only increases the likelihood of BA/DL announcing IND-Europe by the end of the year. I also think CLE/CVG/DTW were better fitted for ULCC service to Europe than IND, STL could be debatable, but I'm thinking STL maybe didn't want to wait for BA to add service...

I think this conversation would be a lot different though if BA would have announced STL today.....


Unfortunately, Kansas City MCI is higher than IND in terms of pax yield. Thankfully for IND however, MCI is not actively pursuing TATL due to various problems at the airport. From what's understood from the STL presser, very minimal subsidies were given. Also, I don't think WW's announcement dampens any STL march to LHR.


Why do you think MCI is higher in terms of pax yield? http://www.aci-na.org/sites/default/fil ... slides.pdf MCI isn't on there but according to the powerpoint from ACI north america IND had higher yields than AUS, MSY, and STL all of which were higher yielding than MCI according to SabreMI 2013.


@JakeMeyerKC, a route developer at KCI, says that they are. However, MCI is not pursuing TATL so it's really a non-issue.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:47 pm

I don't know when this happened but AA finally converted some of their IND-DFW flights to the 737. Also, UA is keeping one 737 and one A319 daily on IND-SFO, contrary to what was announced by UA, however, I expect that to change to two A319s once VX starts.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:54 pm

upgrademe2First wrote:
Good to see some of these smaller cities finally getting TATL. I am sure IND will be soon. Everyone on this site loves aviation and wants their city to be thought of as the next great US City. (The next Denver, Portland, Austin or Seattle) There are many factors that go into an airline decision to start new service. Corporate presence is clearly one of them, along with population. Nobody really talks about actual demand. Not just the Brookings Institute info but demand on the street-the mentality of the masses.

Do your friends sit around talking about going to Europe? Just because Toyota or Rolls Royce might build parts in Indiana doesn’t mean that their employees are sitting around talking about a vacation in Europe. I live in Colorado now but grew up in Indiana so I see things in several ways. I thought about travel to Europe all of the time, just like many people on this site. However, many people I know didn’t and still don’t. I’m talking college educated AND blue collar. Nobody seemed to really care when I said I was heading to Paris or London. Many of my friends graduated from Indiana, Purdue, Ball State (great school) Notre Dame, etc. But they seemed more interested in going to Mexico or driving to Florida for vacation-they looked at me like I was crazy when I would talk about Rick Steves and getting a Eurail pass.

I’ve read some of these posts analyzing ‘Which flight to Europe will we get first? or analyzing that IND might get multiple flights all at the same time’. FI is a great start if it happens. Baby steps. I just don’t see BA coming to IND anytime soon. I hope I am wrong and they make an announcement soon.

The recent BA adds all made sense.

BNA -underserved market, country music epicenter
SJC-Silicon Valley $$$ Giant population
AUS- wealthy, educated area with no competition.
MSY-historically, top 5 tourist destination in the US

I am just trying to come at this from a different angle. Denver has nearly 60 million passengers a year and (until 3 months ago) our choices to Europe were limited aka terrible. We had the demand, we had people who sat around and said “I wish that we had a non-stop to Paris” we have a high percentage of the population with college degrees and work in high paying jobs. But we still had to beg United to start service. Only when competition came to Denver did United take notice and start new service. FI is a great start if it can happen for IND.


Welcome to A.net and glad to hear your opinion!

I have a question though, are asking why an IND TATL flight would make sense? or are you saying there isn't enough demand for a TATL flight to LHR on BA?
 
upgrademe2First
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:36 pm

Midwestindy I always appreciate your posts and thanks for keeping me updated on Indiana in general. I've stood on the sidelines for several years and finally felt that I needed to say something (just blabbing of course) My hometown, FWA, has had awful air service for most of my life but has been exploding in the past 3 years. I still can't believe United is flying to EWR. The only true hole in their network is West-Denver. Flying to DFW in order to go to SFO doesnt make much sense. Flying to MSP in order to go to LAX? Frontier could have started it by now...they were actually very successful in SBN too. Hopefully, ORD will continue to be chaotic and United will start a nonstop to Denver. I would love to see SWN but that probably will never happen. Where were all these great flights when I lived there?

I think there is absolutely the demand for LHR...I just don't think it is going to be on BA. I am not sure if IND can fill a 787, even 4 or 5 days a week I also don't see AA coming into a non-hub city like IND. (RDU is an exception of course since it was a hub in the 90's and they've locked down all of the big business contracts in the area). I think Norwegian is going to slip in there with a LGW flight. Not the best airport for connectivity but a start for sure. I think it could also be Delta (CDG or AMS) with a 757. Delta has proven success with narrow body planes in non-hub cities (Pittsburgh, RDU-well almost a hub now and a 767 I believe) Delta goes where others have uprooted or don't want to invest the time or money. Delta is proactive, AA and UA are very reactionary I just dont think it will be a major international carrier (BA or Lufthansa) I hope that I'm wrong
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:47 pm

I feel confident that it won't be Lufthansa. They simply do not fly to midsize US markets. It would be very out of character for them. AA might do it since they do have a history of running routes like that (RDU as you mention). There is a lot of money on the table plus who knows what other kinds of deals might be in the works. I am still hoping for DL to AMS.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ADrum23
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:55 pm

upgrademe2First wrote:
Midwestindy I always appreciate your posts and thanks for keeping me updated on Indiana in general. I've stood on the sidelines for several years and finally felt that I needed to say something (just blabbing of course) My hometown, FWA, has had awful air service for most of my life but has been exploding in the past 3 years. I still can't believe United is flying to EWR. The only true hole in their network is West-Denver. Flying to DFW in order to go to SFO doesnt make much sense. Flying to MSP in order to go to LAX? Frontier could have started it by now...they were actually very successful in SBN too. Hopefully, ORD will continue to be chaotic and United will start a nonstop to Denver. I would love to see SWN but that probably will never happen. Where were all these great flights when I lived there?

I think there is absolutely the demand for LHR...I just don't think it is going to be on BA. I am not sure if IND can fill a 787, even 4 or 5 days a week I also don't see AA coming into a non-hub city like IND. (RDU is an exception of course since it was a hub in the 90's and they've locked down all of the big business contracts in the area). I think Norwegian is going to slip in there with a LGW flight. Not the best airport for connectivity but a start for sure. I think it could also be Delta (CDG or AMS) with a 757. Delta has proven success with narrow body planes in non-hub cities (Pittsburgh, RDU-well almost a hub now and a 767 I believe) Delta goes where others have uprooted or don't want to invest the time or money. Delta is proactive, AA and UA are very reactionary I just dont think it will be a major international carrier (BA or Lufthansa) I hope that I'm wrong


If MSY and BNA can support BA flights to LHR, then IND can as well. They have much more business traffic to Europe than the both of those cities. I am surprised that IND wasn't included in this massive LCC TATL service announcement today, but maybe that is an indication that something (better) is being announced this fall.

Good point about DL being proactive. I wish AA would be more like them in that regard.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:09 pm

upgrademe2First wrote:
Midwestindy I always appreciate your posts and thanks for keeping me updated on Indiana in general. I've stood on the sidelines for several years and finally felt that I needed to say something (just blabbing of course) My hometown, FWA, has had awful air service for most of my life but has been exploding in the past 3 years. I still can't believe United is flying to EWR. The only true hole in their network is West-Denver. Flying to DFW in order to go to SFO doesnt make much sense. Flying to MSP in order to go to LAX? Frontier could have started it by now...they were actually very successful in SBN too. Hopefully, ORD will continue to be chaotic and United will start a nonstop to Denver. I would love to see SWN but that probably will never happen. Where were all these great flights when I lived there?

I think there is absolutely the demand for LHR...I just don't think it is going to be on BA. I am not sure if IND can fill a 787, even 4 or 5 days a week I also don't see AA coming into a non-hub city like IND. (RDU is an exception of course since it was a hub in the 90's and they've locked down all of the big business contracts in the area). I think Norwegian is going to slip in there with a LGW flight. Not the best airport for connectivity but a start for sure. I think it could also be Delta (CDG or AMS) with a 757. Delta has proven success with narrow body planes in non-hub cities (Pittsburgh, RDU-well almost a hub now and a 767 I believe) Delta goes where others have uprooted or don't want to invest the time or money. Delta is proactive, AA and UA are very reactionary I just dont think it will be a major international carrier (BA or Lufthansa) I hope that I'm wrong


DEN(and the west in general) is definitely a hole in FWA's route map, but looking at O&D DEN-FWA isn't that strong, however, I think F9 would be perfect to stimulate that market. Hopefully, G4 adds FWA-LAX/LAS to help stimulate those routes as well.

In terms of demand you have probably heard me mention this before, but IND (in 2017) is the top unserved market from Europe and BNA was the third largest market, so therefore if there was enough demand for BA to announce BNA there is enough demand for BA to announce IND.

With regards to AA, I thought the same thing until I heard that AA is soon going to be announcing at least one new n/s flight to LHR from a market that doesn't have n/s service to LHR. Therefore, AA IND-LHR happening soon is a very possible scenario. DL AMS/CDG is a very possible scenario as well, and there were discussions about that flight during the summer. So, even if it isn't BA there are other possibilities for TATL service in the next year.

As Indy mentioned, part of the reason IND might not have gotten WW or FI was that their money was tied up elsewhere...
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:12 pm

indygs wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
With STL/DTW/CLE/CVG getting WOW!, and FI I think the chances for DL/BA in IND have gone way up...


Actually, this is not a good sign. WOW passing over IND is a legitimate problem. STL, DTW, CVG and CLE are very likely to be unsubsidized routes. The fact that they passed up IND I think is a red flag.


Not sure I would agree. As I understand it, the subsidy has certain metrics that need to be met in terms of destination(s), seats offered, frequencies, etc. Its highly likely that WOW would not meet any of the criteria necessary to get a subsidy for IND service. Perhaps the other airports offered some sort of concessions knowing there are no other legacy carriers coming in with new TATL flights. If you're IND, you have to protect your ground in the event a BA or DL does come in and start a new service. You don't want it cannibalized by a LCC in a market where that could easily happen (WN at IND is a good example).

The KEF service at CVG will barely get any subsidiary, only $150,000 for marketing, looks like STL/CLE gave more though. WOW probably picked DTW/CVG because of crazy high fares on TATL flights because their non-stops cater to "premium" demand. I don't think WOW got much, if anything, to serve CVG or DTW.
Last edited by cvgComair on Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SmithAir747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:26 pm

upgrademe2First wrote:
Midwestindy I always appreciate your posts and thanks for keeping me updated on Indiana in general. I've stood on the sidelines for several years and finally felt that I needed to say something (just blabbing of course) My hometown, FWA, has had awful air service for most of my life but has been exploding in the past 3 years. I still can't believe United is flying to EWR. The only true hole in their network is West-Denver. Flying to DFW in order to go to SFO doesnt make much sense. Flying to MSP in order to go to LAX? Frontier could have started it by now...they were actually very successful in SBN too. Hopefully, ORD will continue to be chaotic and United will start a nonstop to Denver. I would love to see SWN but that probably will never happen. Where were all these great flights when I lived there?

I think there is absolutely the demand for LHR...I just don't think it is going to be on BA. I am not sure if IND can fill a 787, even 4 or 5 days a week I also don't see AA coming into a non-hub city like IND. (RDU is an exception of course since it was a hub in the 90's and they've locked down all of the big business contracts in the area). I think Norwegian is going to slip in there with a LGW flight. Not the best airport for connectivity but a start for sure. I think it could also be Delta (CDG or AMS) with a 757. Delta has proven success with narrow body planes in non-hub cities (Pittsburgh, RDU-well almost a hub now and a 767 I believe) Delta goes where others have uprooted or don't want to invest the time or money. Delta is proactive, AA and UA are very reactionary I just dont think it will be a major international carrier (BA or Lufthansa) I hope that I'm wrong


FWA is my original hometown too...and in my own experience the air service to and from FWA is indeed awful. I come home to Fort Wayne more than once a year to visit family there (all my family are there) from across the continent (currently, I live in Denver; before that I spent time in Calgary, San Francisco, and London). So anytime I want to come to FWA, it's an all-day-long trip, flying from DEN-hub-FWA roundtrip on one of the legacies (and the worst hub is ORD with its delays and cancellations); I have begun avoiding ORD in favour of more southerly hubs like DFW. FWA is served only by the regionals with their "Barbie jet" RJs, and I have grown to despise RJs over time. Besides, all three legacies that serve FWA charge for bags and other "extras" that were once part of the ticket, and their airfares into FWA are very high. This summer, I discovered an alternative to FWA: I flew WN nonstop DEN-IND roundtrip both times, for much lower fares (and no nickel-and-dime fees whatsoever, nor were there fees to change the ticket even)--this has proven less stressful than connecting and worrying about being nickeled and dimed. Even with the cost of a rental car to drive up to Fort Wayne, the trip was still cheaper each time. I'm sorely tempted to use WN DEN-IND for my Christmas trip home!

I do hope that IND lands a TATL nonstop service (I would prefer LHR). I've been wanting to take a family member in Fort Wayne with me to visit my old haunts in London (from when I lived there 2004-2007). If there were a nonstop TATL from IND to London, I could just pick up my family member from Fort Wayne and go to IND and get on the nonstop flight to London and back roundtrip, without the waste and hassle of connecting in ORD or anywhere else from FWA.

SmithAir747
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
upgrademe2First
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:33 pm

Small world FWA to DEN. It does feel like quite the journey to return to FWA from DEN. Regardless of O & D between FWA and DEN, they really need the flight for connections if anything. Im not a huge fan of the RJs either so I also end up on the WN from DEN-IND. Frontier and United are both on the route too which is great. With WN becoming the dominant domestic carrier in DEN, I'm hoping to get 1 nonstop to FWA. UA is on DEN-GRR and DEN-DAY. Maybe UA finally steps up.

I'm very happy what is going on in DEN with TATL service in the past 90 days. I think the Norwegian LGW will fade away which will lead to CDG. DEN really doesn't need 3 carriers for London but I'll take it for now.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:52 pm

upgrademe2First wrote:
Small world FWA to DEN. It does feel like quite the journey to return to FWA from DEN. Regardless of O & D between FWA and DEN, they really need the flight for connections if anything. Im not a huge fan of the RJs either so I also end up on the WN from DEN-IND. Frontier and United are both on the route too which is great. With WN becoming the dominant domestic carrier in DEN, I'm hoping to get 1 nonstop to FWA. UA is on DEN-GRR and DEN-DAY. Maybe UA finally steps up.

I'm very happy what is going on in DEN with TATL service in the past 90 days. I think the Norwegian LGW will fade away which will lead to CDG. DEN really doesn't need 3 carriers for London but I'll take it for now.


I also hope for a DEN-FWA nonstop one day (whether I remain in Denver or move yet again). I avoid the ULCCs because of their nickel-and-dime fees for everything. WN avoids all that. IND has so many more flight options anyway--and I hope for the rumoured TATL--hopefully on a full-service carrier, and preferably to London. Like I mentioned earlier, I want to take a family member from Fort Wayne to London to show them around my old haunts. A nonstop IND-London would be easier than the usual FWA-hub-London ring-round-the-rosy.

By the way, I meant to ask, what do you predict the DEN-FWA service might use--an RJ most likely (on UA, that is)?

As for DEN nonstop TATL service, I really appreciate it! Last year (January 2016), I flew BA DEN-LHR nonstop roundtrip, on the 747 (my all-time favourite indeed). I have another trip to London coming up next month, this time using DY DEN-LGW (I purchased an all-inclusive airfare). It will be interesting to find out what DY is like. I'm making it a point to try to go back to London once a year to revisit my university, my neighbourhood, and all my other old haunts and my dear old friends from the time I lived in London (you can probably tell I miss London a lot and yearn to return there). On DY, I was able to get a premium product for the price of a BA standard economy product. Next week, I'm going to Perth, Australia, and wish there were a nonstop DEN-PER service (keep dreaming); the same for my November trip to Brazil (ditto for a nonstop DEN-GRU someday).

SmithAir747
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:21 pm

cvgComair wrote:
indygs wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:

Actually, this is not a good sign. WOW passing over IND is a legitimate problem. STL, DTW, CVG and CLE are very likely to be unsubsidized routes. The fact that they passed up IND I think is a red flag.


Not sure I would agree. As I understand it, the subsidy has certain metrics that need to be met in terms of destination(s), seats offered, frequencies, etc. Its highly likely that WOW would not meet any of the criteria necessary to get a subsidy for IND service. Perhaps the other airports offered some sort of concessions knowing there are no other legacy carriers coming in with new TATL flights. If you're IND, you have to protect your ground in the event a BA or DL does come in and start a new service. You don't want it cannibalized by a LCC in a market where that could easily happen (WN at IND is a good example).

The KEF service at CVG will barely get any subsidiary, only $150,000 for marketing, looks like STL/CLE gave more though. WOW probably picked DTW/CVG because of crazy high fares on TATL flights because their non-stops cater to "premium" demand. I don't think WOW got much, if anything, to serve CVG or DTW.


"Cleveland Hopkins will give Wow and Icelandair each $500,000 per year for two years in marketing support, for a combined total of $2 million."
"To help convince Wow to begin St. Louis service, area governmental agencies are providing $800,000 in incentives plus a waiver of landing fees for 18 months."
"The Allegheny County Airport Authority is paying $800,000 in incentives over two years to Wow Air....They include no landing fees for two years"

IND would have likely spent this much or more to land WW, because IND doesn't already have TATL service.
 
upgrademe2First
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:46 pm

SmithAir747 wrote:
upgrademe2First wrote:

By the way, I meant to ask, what do you predict the DEN-FWA service might use--an RJ most likely (on UA, that is)?

As for DEN nonstop TATL service, I really appreciate it! Last year (January 2016), I flew BA DEN-LHR nonstop roundtrip, on the 747 (my all-time favourite indeed). I have another trip to London coming up next month, this time using DY DEN-LGW (I purchased an all-inclusive airfare). It will be interesting to find out what DY is like. I'm making it a point to try to go back to London once a year to revisit my university, my neighbourhood, and all my other old haunts and my dear old friends from the time I lived in London (you can probably tell I miss London a lot and yearn to return there). On DY, I was able to get a premium product for the price of a BA standard economy product. Next week, I'm going to Perth, Australia, and wish there were a nonstop DEN-PER service (keep dreaming); the same for my November trip to Brazil (ditto for a nonstop DEN-GRU someday).

SmithAir747


I'm sure a future DEN-FWA will be on some type of RJ. Maybe the Embraer RJ145. UA has this plane on GRR and DAY out of DEN and the flight in nearly full on a daily basis. DEN is more of a connecting hub anyway so I think this decreases the need for a huge FC cabin. Maintenance bases in DEN and FWA make this flight really a no brainer. FWA needs a true Western hub to connect to and DEN is the only one that makes any logical sense.

We just flew on BA from LHR-DEN in April. We are trying to get as many 747 trips as possible before they are all gone. Let us know how DY was on that flight. Not sure if I will ever take them to LGW but just happy that option is available. I think if DY ever builds up their operations in EZE (South American hub) you will start to see more nonstops from South American to the US
 
SmithAir747
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:36 pm

upgrademe2First wrote:
SmithAir747 wrote:
upgrademe2First wrote:

By the way, I meant to ask, what do you predict the DEN-FWA service might use--an RJ most likely (on UA, that is)?

As for DEN nonstop TATL service, I really appreciate it! Last year (January 2016), I flew BA DEN-LHR nonstop roundtrip, on the 747 (my all-time favourite indeed). I have another trip to London coming up next month, this time using DY DEN-LGW (I purchased an all-inclusive airfare). It will be interesting to find out what DY is like. I'm making it a point to try to go back to London once a year to revisit my university, my neighbourhood, and all my other old haunts and my dear old friends from the time I lived in London (you can probably tell I miss London a lot and yearn to return there). On DY, I was able to get a premium product for the price of a BA standard economy product. Next week, I'm going to Perth, Australia, and wish there were a nonstop DEN-PER service (keep dreaming); the same for my November trip to Brazil (ditto for a nonstop DEN-GRU someday).

SmithAir747


I'm sure a future DEN-FWA will be on some type of RJ. Maybe the Embraer RJ145. UA has this plane on GRR and DAY out of DEN and the flight in nearly full on a daily basis. DEN is more of a connecting hub anyway so I think this decreases the need for a huge FC cabin. Maintenance bases in DEN and FWA make this flight really a no brainer. FWA needs a true Western hub to connect to and DEN is the only one that makes any logical sense.

We just flew on BA from LHR-DEN in April. We are trying to get as many 747 trips as possible before they are all gone. Let us know how DY was on that flight. Not sure if I will ever take them to LGW but just happy that option is available. I think if DY ever builds up their operations in EZE (South American hub) you will start to see more nonstops from South American to the US


I was afraid that the DEN-FWA was going to be on one of those tiny RJs--which I despise and try to avoid now. I've flown the AA ERJ-145 on the DFW-FWA route too many times in the past, and it's a long flight in that tiny plane (as I imagine DEN-FWA will be). I'll stick with DEN-IND for now whilst I remain in Denver. It appears FWA will remain ERJ/CRJ-only territory for the foreseeable future (other than Allegiant).

When DY announced DEN-LGW, I looked at both DY and BA for my upcoming London trip (I'm going September 16-30). BA were asking an awful lot for their Y ticket; I would have loved to go on the 747 once again (maybe I'll still do it again one day), whilst DY were offering it much cheaper (I purchased the all-inclusive Low Fare + ticket, which includes a bag, meal, etc). Later on, I was able to upgrade it to Premium (which costs about the same as a regular Y ticket on BA and other carriers). I'm looking forward to trying DY's Premium product, and on a 787 to boot.

SmithAir747
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:11 am

With the G4 schedule extension this week I was interested to see how much flying they would be doing out of IND next March, times are for departures, not arrivals
I also haven't taken the time to check for any gaps in the schedule, but I might at a later time...
IND-MSY 3 weekly Sun/Thurs 5:57pm, Tue 1:24pm
IND-LAS 2x weekly Mon/Fri 1:55 pm
IND-FLL daily Mon/Fri 5:34 pm, Tue 4:02 PM, Wed 8 AM, Thu/Sun 5:27 PM, Sat 8:11 AM
IND-SFB daily(Sat 2x daily) Mon/FriI 7:30 am, Tue/Thu/Sun 3pm, Wed 9:45 AM, Sat 7AM and 5:51PM
IND-JAX 3x weekly Sun 7 AM, Tue 8 AM, Thurs 7 am
IND-PGD daily (Sat 2x daily) Mon/Fri 10:33 am, Tue 10:03am, Wed 3:40pm, Thu/Sun 10:23am, Sat 1:05pm and 5:04pm
IND-PIE daily (Sat 2x daily) Mon/Fri 1:25pm, Tue 4:27pm, Wed 2:50pm, Thu/Sun 6:41pm, Sat 3:11pm and 8:25pm
IND-AUS 2x weekly Mon/Fri 7am
IND-AZA 2x weekly Mon/Fri 9:47pm
IND-SAV 2x weekly Mon/Thu 12:29pm
IND-MRY(starts back up in Apr)
IND-VPS(starts back up in Apr)

Daily Departures: Mon(8), Tue(6), Wed(4), Thu(7), Fri(7), Sat(7), Sun(6)
Weekly Departures(March 25-31): 38

Good to see YOY growth for IND!
 
ADrum23
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:12 am

Does anyone think we'll ever see IND-BNA service (on any airline)? Or are they too close?
 
Jshank83
Posts: 688
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:19 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Does anyone think we'll ever see IND-BNA service (on any airline)? Or are they too close?


WN would be the only option I think. Not sure how likely it is though.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:24 am

Jshank83 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Does anyone think we'll ever see IND-BNA service (on any airline)? Or are they too close?


WN would be the only option I think. Not sure how likely it is though.


Pretty sure BNA-IND was either run or announced by J1 before they moved their operation to PIT.
 
Indy
Posts: 4281
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread

Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:49 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Does anyone think we'll ever see IND-BNA service (on any airline)? Or are they too close?


WN would be the only option I think. Not sure how likely it is though.


Pretty sure BNA-IND was either run or announced by J1 before they moved their operation to PIT.


BNA was run back in the day when US had a hub in IND.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
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