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ikolkyo
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A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:37 pm

An Emirates Airbus A380-800, most likely registration A6-EUL performing flight EK-412 from Dubai (United Arab Emirates) to Sydney,NS (Australia), was enroute at FL350 about 630nm southeast of Muscat (Oman) and about 820nm northwest of Male (Maldives) at about 08:40Z when a business jet passed underneath in opposite direction. The A380 continued the flight to Sydney without any apparent incident and landed safely.

The business jet, a MHS Aviation (Munich) Canadair Challenger 604 registration D-AMSC performing flight MHV-604 from Male (Maldives) to Abu Dhabi (United Arab Emirates) with 9 people on board, was enroute over the Arabian Sea when an Airbus A380-800 was observed by the crew passing 1000 feet above. After passing underneath the A380 at about 08:40Z the crew lost control of the aircraft as result of wake turbulence from the A380 and was able to regain control of the aircraft only after losing about 10,000 feet. The airframe experienced very high G-Loads during the upset, a number of occupants received injuries during the upset. After the crew managed to stabilize the aircraft the crew decided to divert to Muscat (Oman), entered Omani Airspace at 14:10L (10:10Z) declaring emergency and reporting injuries on board and continued for a landing in Muscat at 15:14L (11:14Z) without further incident. A number of occupants were taken to a hospital, one occupant was reported with serious injuries. The aircraft received damage beyond repair and was written off.

Oman's Civil Aviation Authority had told Omani media on Jan 8th 2017, that a private German registered aircraft had performed an emergency landing in Muscat on Jan 7th 2017 declaring emergency at 14:10L (10:10Z) and landing in Muscat at 15:14L (11:14Z). The crew had declared emergency due to injuries on board and problems with an engine (a number of media subsequently reported the right hand engine had failed, another number of media reported the left hand engine had failed).

According to information The Aviation Herald received on March 4th 2017 the CL-604 passed 1000 feet below an Airbus A380-800 while enroute over the Arabian Sea, when a short time later (1-2 minutes) the aircraft encountered wake turbulence sending the aircraft in uncontrolled roll turning the aircraft around at least 3 times (possibly even 5 times), both engines flamed out, the Ram Air Turbine could not deploy possibly as result of G-forces and structural stress, the aircraft lost about 10,000 feet until the crew was able to recover the aircraft exercising raw muscle force, restart the engines and divert to Muscat.

The Aviation Herald is currently unable to substantiate details of the occurrence, no radar data are available for the business jet, it is therefore unclear when the business jet departed from Male and where the actual "rendezvouz" with the A380 took place. Based on the known time of the occurrence at 08:40Z as well as the time when the CL-604 reached Omani Airspace declaring emergency and landed in Muscat, as well as which A380s were enroute over the Arabian Sea around that time The Aviation Herald believes the most likely A380 was EK-412 and the "rendezvouz" took place 630nm southeast of Muscat, which provides the best match of remaining flying time (2.5 hours) and distance for the CL-604 also considering rather strong northwesterly winds (headwind for the CL-604, tailwind for the A380s).

On Jan 7th 2017 there were also other A380-800s crossing the Arabian Sea from northwest to southeast: a Qantas A380-800, registration VH-OQJ performing flight QF-2 from Dubai to Sydney, was enroute at FL330 about 1000nm southeast of Muscat and about 400nm northwest of Male at 08:40Z. An Emirates A380-800 registration A6-EDO performing flight EK-406 from Dubai to Melbourne,VI (Australia) was enroute at FL350 about 470nm southeast of Muscat at 08:40Z. Another Emirates A380-800 registration A6-EUH performing flight EK-424 from Dubai to Perth,WA (Australia), was enroute at FL350 about 350nm southeast of Muscat at 08:40z.

The Aviation Herald received information that Air Traffic Control all around the globe have recently been instructed to exercise particular care with A380s crossing above other aircraft. The Aviation Herald had already reported a number of Wake Turbulence Encounters involving A380s before:

Incident: Virgin Australia B738 near Bali on Sep 14th 2012, wake turbulence from A380
Incident: Air France A320 and Emirates A388 near Frankfurt on Oct 14th 2011, wake turbulence
Accident: British Airways A320 and Qantas A388 near Braunschweig on Oct 16th 2011, wake turbulence injures 4
Report: Antonov A124, Singapore A388 and Air France B744 near Frankfurt on Feb 10th 2011, wake turbulence by A388 causes TCAS RA
Report: REX SF34 at Sydney on Nov 3rd 2008, wake turbulence injures one
Incident: Armavia A320 near Tiblisi on Jan 11th 2009, turbulence at cruise level thought to be A380 wake

MHS Aviation told The Aviation Herald, that they can not provide any further details due to the ongoing investigation, Germany's BFU is investigating the occurrence (which confirmed The Aviation Herald's assumption, that the occurrence was over international waters, Germany as state of registration of the accident aircraft thus being responsible for the investigation).

Authorities in Oman have so far not responded to inquiries by The Aviation Herald.

In response to our inquiry summarizing the known information so far as described above (however, mistakenly assuming the date of the occurrence was Jan 8th 2017 based on the information thus far) Germany's BFU confirmed that they are leading the investigation. The occurrence happened already on Jan 7th 2017 at 08:40Z. The BFU is unable to provide further details at this time (in particular to which A380 caused the wake turbulence) because these details are subject to investigation. By Mar 8th 2017 no safety recommendations have yet been issued by the BFU. A preliminary report is estimated to be included in the January 2017 bulletin (which according to "tradition" should be released by mid of March 2017, however, the release of the Jan bulletin can currently not be estimated because so far only the August 2016 bulletin has been released by the BFU, the remaining 2016 bulletins are still being worked on).


Very scary situation and I'm glad everyone the business jet walked away with their lives

Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=4a5e80f3&opt=0
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:45 pm

For how much time was the bizjet diving? ie. How many ft/min?

This reminds me of China Airlines flight 006, although that plunged 30,000 feet. Nevertheless, kudos to the excellent crew on this flight, by the sounds of things, this could have ended very differently.

"Caution wake turbulence" and "super" exist for a reason. It will be interesting to find out what exactly went wrong here.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:37 am

In the words of Jeremy Clarkson, "poo was shooting out!"

Incidents like this will probably lead to increased separation standards around Super aircraft. Operationally it would suck to require 2,000 feet vertical separation -- it would be like the old days of pre RVSM between FL290-FL410 -- but that's more than likely the only way this situation would have been prevented. Sadly, like many things, it will probably take an accident to affect change if it's going to occur. This situation could have very easily had a bad outcome.
 
Jshank83
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:04 am

What is the separation required by aircraft? I was flying on a 737 the other day and saw a plane pass by going in the opposite direction pretty close. It was lower and it's hard to tell depth, but is was closer than I expected. We were at cruise altitude over Kansas.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:06 am

Jshank83 wrote:
What is the separation required by aircraft? I was flying on a 737 the other day and saw a plane pass by going in the opposite direction pretty close. It was lower and it's hard to tell depth, but is was closer than I expected. We were at cruise altitude over Kansas.


1000ft
 
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fanoftristars
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:50 am

I'm wondering why the biz jet crew didn't ask the passengers to belt in knowing the turbulence was coming... They crew would obviously know there would be bumps... maybe not that bad, but they would know it was going to be quite a ride...

A few years ago I was on a DL757 when the captain let us know a B744 was passing us in the air just above us. You could see it pass, slightly on an angle, but it was just above us. He said the fasten seatbelt was on as we'd feel a few good bumps when passing through the 744's wake. Sure enough, a min or two later we received a few good jolts, then smooth again.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:06 am

KTPAFlyer wrote:
For how much time was the bizjet diving? ie. How many ft/min?

This reminds me of China Airlines flight 006, although that plunged 30,000 feet. Nevertheless, kudos to the excellent crew on this flight, by the sounds of things, this could have ended very differently.

"Caution wake turbulence" and "super" exist for a reason. It will be interesting to find out what exactly went wrong here.


In 20 years I've gotten maybe 1 or 2 'caution wake turbulence' at altitude. Not sure it's a requirement as it is down low.
 
ltbewr
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:07 am

I wonder if wind conditions or other factors even at that altitude also affect wake turbulence, aggravating it.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:15 am

Jshank83 wrote:
What is the separation required by aircraft? I was flying on a 737 the other day and saw a plane pass by going in the opposite direction pretty close. It was lower and it's hard to tell depth, but is was closer than I expected. We were at cruise altitude over Kansas.

1,000 feet vertical below FL410, but visual separation can be used below 18,000, so it can get quite a bit closer. 1,000 vertical looks a lot closer than it really is.
 
Max Q
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:39 am

Good reason to always offset, simple and cheap insurance.
 
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barney captain
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:59 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
KTPAFlyer wrote:
For how much time was the bizjet diving? ie. How many ft/min?

This reminds me of China Airlines flight 006, although that plunged 30,000 feet. Nevertheless, kudos to the excellent crew on this flight, by the sounds of things, this could have ended very differently.

"Caution wake turbulence" and "super" exist for a reason. It will be interesting to find out what exactly went wrong here.


In 20 years I've gotten maybe 1 or 2 'caution wake turbulence' at altitude. Not sure it's a requirement as it is down low.


Ditto.

I've never received one at cruise. In the same vain, the "heavy" call requirement is dropped outside of the terminal area.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:38 pm

Wow. That is one scary incident. Holy crap!

Getting sweaty palms just by reading it... (not a brave one here I admit..)
 
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litz
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:59 pm

Yowzers .... "The aircraft received damage beyond repair and was written off."
 
b747400erf
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:12 pm

If the aircraft was damaged beyond repair then Airbus should be able to use that to investigate. Changing vertical separation rules when too much traffic is an issue more and more each day is not possible.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:07 am

Bit off topic but I am curious as to why 1,000 feet vertical separation was chosen as a standard?
 
bhxdtw
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:16 am

Now... I'm being dumb here im sure, but when they say ... 'roll' ... Exactly what are they saying?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:02 am

Maritime law generally says if your wake causes damages, you pay.
 
CXfirst
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:43 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Maritime law generally says if your wake causes damages, you pay.


Wouldn't say it is comparable, seeing as in aviation, the air traffic control unit is responsible for separation, not the pilot of the A380.

-CXfirst
 
benjjk
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:53 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
Bit off topic but I am curious as to why 1,000 feet vertical separation was chosen as a standard?


Separation needs to be big enough to provide a good margin of safety, accounting for imperfect altimeters, inaccurate flying etc. But if the minimum separation is too big the airspace capacity decreases which would be hell in busy areas. 1000ft is a good compromise and is a lot easier than remembering 1258 ft, for example...
 
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zeke
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:20 am

Max Q wrote:
Good reason to always offset, simple and cheap insurance.


:bigthumbsup: With GPS/RNAV it is crazy every if flying the same course within a few feet laterally just separated by 1000 ft. It would take next to nothing to mandate a 1 nm right offset at all times.
 
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Clipper101
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:21 am

bhxdtw wrote:
Now... I'm being dumb here im sure, but when they say ... 'roll' ... Exactly what are they saying?


The report says:

sending the aircraft in uncontrolled roll turning the aircraft around at least 3 times (possibly even 5 times)


I understand it as: the aircraft was turning in a loop around itself !
 
JAAlbert
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:11 am

Yikes!
That must've been quite a ride for the passengers. What part of the plane was significantly damaged to the point it has been written off? It obviously was structurally worthy enough to make it to Oman.
 
448205
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:47 am

If they are outside of radar control, like most of the south pacific is, there will be no wake advisories. Just like there are no wake advisories or separation services on the North Atlantic tracks. Crews must use SLOP (standardized lateral offset procedure; Airway +0/+1/+2) to establish their own wake separation at their discretion. It must be done very carefully to not become a GNE.

A healthy lesson to those who believe a well trained crew is a luxury. How much is your life worth?
 
Max Q
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:50 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
Bit off topic but I am curious as to why 1,000 feet vertical separation was chosen as a standard?



Very topical I think. The old standard was 2000 feet, changing to 1000 allows more aircraft in the same airspace.
 
Max Q
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:51 am

zeke wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Good reason to always offset, simple and cheap insurance.


:bigthumbsup: With GPS/RNAV it is crazy every if flying the same course within a few feet laterally just separated by 1000 ft. It would take next to nothing to mandate a 1 nm right offset at all times.



I couldn't agree more.
 
michi
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:24 pm

Wake turbulence at cruise altitude is quite special. I once experienced a sudden roll up to 30° right bank. The roll rate was impressive, almost instantly. The wake was produced by an A330. I was sitting in an A380.
Conclusion: Even super aircraft get tossed around by wakes.

I fly often in trails of other aircraft. Wake turbulence is happening not very often. Sometimes on NAT-tracks turbulence is caused by aircraft ahead. But never this strong like in my example above. On the track an offset helps a lot to fly out of this turbulence.
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:45 pm

Where this happened SLOP is not an authorised procedure..so in applying the procedure you are also in contravention of the regulations. That being said it's easy enough to ask for a 5 mile "weather deviation".
Dubai ATC have taken to grouping 380 arrivals and departures to reduce wake encounters and spacing issues...from a pilots perspective neither seems to be helping much.
 
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AeroTyke
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:40 pm

Not wishing to take the thread off topic, but whilst we're discussing Emirates A380s, is this considered a bit close separation wise and for wake turbulence?

https://www.flightradar24.com/2017-03-1 ... .99,-9.4/8

Check the RYR852P and UAE232 flights.
 
b747400erf
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:11 am

AeroTyke wrote:
Not wishing to take the thread off topic, but whilst we're discussing Emirates A380s, is this considered a bit close separation wise and for wake turbulence?

https://www.flightradar24.com/2017-03-1 ... .99,-9.4/8

Check the RYR852P and UAE232 flights.


I never liked the reverse odd/even flight levels that exist in some parts including south-western Europe.
 
sparkingwave
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:36 am

'The aircraft received damage beyond repair and was written off.'

Damage beyond repair can be subjective, depending on what an insurance company is willing to pay. I'm guessing the aircraft could have been repaired but would've been too expensive to do so; to subsequently maintain or that it may have lost most of its resale value.

The British Airways 777 in Las Vegas which aborted its takeoff due to an engine explosion looked pretty bad and ready to be written off (from photos), but the airline decided to repair it and put it back into service.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:08 am

Interesting, but I have an odd feeling about this as well.

To begin with, aircraft damaged beyond repair, but they flew it to the airport and landed normally?
 
ltbewr
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:39 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Interesting, but I have an odd feeling about this as well.

To begin with, aircraft damaged beyond repair, but they flew it to the airport and landed normally?

Most likely the biz jet was severely stressed by this encounter. While is was able to recover and fly to a safe landing, certain components would have to be replaced, an expensive and through inspection would have to take place which may mean it economically better for the owner and insurer to scrap the plane.
 
WIederling
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:41 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Interesting, but I have an odd feeling about this as well.

To begin with, aircraft damaged beyond repair, but they flew it to the airport and landed normally?

Aircraft Info

Registration number:
D-AMSC
Year of manufacture:
2000 (Refurbished 2015)

Passengers:
12
Homebase:
EDDM
Operator:
MHS Aviation GmbH

via: https://www.flyvictor.com/en-us/aircraf ... -d-amsc/#/
 
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AeroTyke
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:47 pm

b747400erf wrote:
AeroTyke wrote:
Not wishing to take the thread off topic, but whilst we're discussing Emirates A380s, is this considered a bit close separation wise and for wake turbulence?

https://www.flightradar24.com/2017-03-1 ... .99,-9.4/8

Check the RYR852P and UAE232 flights.


I never liked the reverse odd/even flight levels that exist in some parts including south-western Europe.


Both planes are at FL380 and appear to narrowly avoid colliding.
 
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ikolkyo
Topic Author
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Tue May 16, 2017 8:16 pm

Looks like the avherald post was updated, includes some wild pictures of the challenger's cabin. Link also includes some data on the aircraft during the upset.

Image
Image

http://avherald.com/h?article=4a5e80f3/0017&opt=0
 
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N14AZ
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Re: A380 wake turbulence sends Business jet into 10,000ft dive, causes engines to flameout

Tue May 16, 2017 8:29 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like the avherald post was updated, includes some wild pictures of the challenger's cabin. Link also includes some data on the aircraft during the upset.

Image
Image

http://avherald.com/h?article=4a5e80f3/0017&opt=0

Wow, I hope that colour on the right hand side seat is just red wine, or lipstick...

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