blockski wrote:

Sure. But UA has also said they're conducting a widebody fleet review. At the last earnings call, they said they're not finished yet.

This article says they are reviewing "narrowbody, widebody and regional fleets"

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ew-433304/

IF no A350-1000 or -900 and no A330-900neo then what will replace the old 767-300ER fleet and early 777. The 777-300ER fleet is replacing the 744 fleet, especially in Asia. The only two viable option are the Boeing MOM or more 787 for UA. But can United wait 5 years for the MOM, those 767 are old. Sounds like UA and their friends in Seattle( or Chicago at Boeing HQ) have a secret they will share will us soon.

727200 wrote:

Technically that is correct, there have not been any cancellations. But anyone outside of Stevie Wonder can see, not looking good for the plane being in UA colors.

I don't see where you are getting that, but maybe your name is Stevie?

zeke wrote:

blockski wrote:

Sure. But UA has also said they're conducting a widebody fleet review. At the last earnings call, they said they're not finished yet.

This article says they are reviewing "narrowbody, widebody and regional fleets"

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ew-433304/

Yes. But the big focus has been on the widebody portion; namely, what to do for a 767 replacement, and what to do with the A350 order. There's been plenty of reporting on this.

Firm reporting:

-UA is reviewing their order book and fleet plan; that review is not yet complete
-UA has delayed their initial A350 deliveries

Rumors going around:

-Scott Kirby came to UA; knows what AA paid for their 350s and thinks UA overpaid.
-UA employees saying there's no hype about a new type arriving anytime soon, unlike the 77W...

I wouldn't assume that the A350 order is safe until after they've publicly stated that their fleet plan review is finished.

It would surely be expensive for UA to cancel at this point, no? I couldn't order a car and then not pay up when it arrives at the dealer. I know aircraft contracts have more to them but the principle is the same.

Fred

flipdewaf wrote:

I couldn't order a car and then not pay up when it arrives at the dealer. I know aircraft contracts have more to them but the principle is the same.

Actually you can. You will just lose any deposit you made with the dealer when you first ordered the car plus any cancellation fee that may have been included in the contract you signed with the dealer. Same with airliners.

How expensive it would be for UA depends on the contract. According to some members here UA secured a contract that requires little upfront payments. But on the flip side it might come with strict cancellation penalties.

Polot wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

I couldn't order a car and then not pay up when it arrives at the dealer. I know aircraft contracts have more to them but the principle is the same.

Actually you can. You will just lose any deposit you made with the dealer when you first ordered the car plus any cancellation fee that may have been included in the contract you signed with the dealer. Same with airliners.

How expensive it would be for UA depends on the contract. According to some members here UA secured a contract that requires little upfront payments. But on the flip side it might come with strict cancellation penalties.

When UA ordered the aircraft they mentioned there were huge cancellation penalties attached to the order but they had almost unlimited ability to defer and change types.

ie: There will be a new Airbus type of some kind coming to UA the only question is what and when.

Wouldn't be so sure about that. UA ordered some A-320's in late 1980's. never got around to taking delivery and kept delay, delay. Almost 30 years later...they still havn't made it on the property.

United1 wrote:

ie: There will be a new Airbus type of some kind coming to UA the only question is what and when.

But that isn't known at this time. This could simply be a deferral.

727200 wrote:

Wouldn't be so sure about that. UA ordered some A-320's in late 1980's. never got around to taking delivery and kept delay, delay. Almost 30 years later...they still havn't made it on the property.

The cancelled A32X orders do not date back from the original UA order (which was in 1992 btw, not the late 80s). UA placed multiple followup orders, the last one I think in early 2001 (for 8 A320s and 7 A319s) for delivery starting in Q1 2003. Note that UA's last new built A319/A320s were delivered in 2002

Polot wrote:

727200 wrote:

Wouldn't be so sure about that. UA ordered some A-320's in late 1980's. never got around to taking delivery and kept delay, delay. Almost 30 years later...they still havn't made it on the property.

The cancelled A32X orders do not date back from the original UA order (which was in 1992 btw, not the late 80s). UA placed multiple followup orders, the last one I think in early 2001 (for 8 A320s and 7 A319s) for delivery starting in Q1 2003. Note that UA's last new built A319/A320s were delivered in 2002

Suposedly the deposits for the A32S they had on order were rolled over into the A350 order. These were all aircraft deferred after 9/11 and BK.

PlanesNTrains wrote:

United1 wrote:

ie: There will be a new Airbus type of some kind coming to UA the only question is what and when.

But that isn't known at this time. This could simply be a deferral.

Sure but either way UA isnt going to just cancel and walk away....some type from Airbus will come onboard whether thats the A350 or something else.

United1 wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

United1 wrote:

ie: There will be a new Airbus type of some kind coming to UA the only question is what and when.

But that isn't known at this time. This could simply be a deferral.

Sure but either way UA isnt going to just cancel and walk away....some type from Airbus will come onboard whether thats the A350 or something else.

Sure. I'm just trying to keep it clear, since we have some posters who are stating rumors as facts. I am not a bit surprised by the deferrals as we've been hearing from multiple sources that something was brewing. We haven't, however, heard that is was an outright cancellation. I think when I read your comment I was excluding the A350 in what you were saying, but in re-reading it that new Airbus type could still be an A350.

blockski wrote:

Rumors going around:

-Scott Kirby came to UA; knows what AA paid for their 350s and thinks UA overpaid.
-UA employees saying there's no hype about a new type arriving anytime soon, unlike the 77W...

I wouldn't assume that the A350 order is safe until after they've publicly stated that their fleet plan review is finished.

If Scott Kirby has a problem with what UA paid vs what AA paid there are two problems:
1) It is a bad excuse getting out of a contract and you will pay penalties without taking delivery
2) You can not use that for negotiation because it is a breach in NDA at various levels (a breach in NDA between AA and Airbus and a breach between Kirby and AA)
3) The real problem would be that UA has an internal problem and is terrible in negotiation (which I believe after the 737-700 fiasco)

AngMoh wrote:

blockski wrote:

Rumors going around:

-Scott Kirby came to UA; knows what AA paid for their 350s and thinks UA overpaid.
-UA employees saying there's no hype about a new type arriving anytime soon, unlike the 77W...

I wouldn't assume that the A350 order is safe until after they've publicly stated that their fleet plan review is finished.

If Scott Kirby has a problem with what UA paid vs what AA paid there are two problems:
1) It is a bad excuse getting out of a contract and you will pay penalties without taking delivery
2) You can not use that for negotiation because it is a breach in NDA at various levels (a breach in NDA between AA and Airbus and a breach between Kirby and AA)
3) The real problem would be that UA has an internal problem and is terrible in negotiation (which I believe after the 737-700 fiasco)

But UA can still draw this out and create some pain for Airbus. Maybe not with today's order book, but if they draw it out long enough Airbus may want to play ball with them.

Perhaps the example of Ryanair and Airbus might be relevant. As usual Ryanair was trading off Boeing and Airbus. Airbus so was disgusted with the manner in which this was done that they have refused to do business with Ryanair ever since.

Egerton wrote:

Perhaps the example of Ryanair and Airbus might be relevant. As usual Ryanair was trading off Boeing and Airbus. Airbus so was disgusted with the manner in which this was done that they have refused to do business with Ryanair ever since.

Oh I am sure Airbus responds to Ryanair's RFPs and does so with competitive terms. They're just not going to put a significant amount of effort into winning the business.

Egerton wrote:

Perhaps the example of Ryanair and Airbus might be relevant. As usual Ryanair was trading off Boeing and Airbus. Airbus so was disgusted with the manner in which this was done that they have refused to do business with Ryanair ever since.

To be clear, are you saying that if an airline wants to play hardball that Airbus is willing to write them off? I would love to see Airbus tell the worlds third largest airline to pound sand.

Guys, don't you think you're all going too black/white?
I hardly think it "you or me" situation. Airbus has a slight edge - they have the deal closed in terms of price per unit. And - as some claim - high contractual fines. On the other hand, UA can defer basically forever, and they're large enough (=important enough) to make a point.
Taking that into acoount, I'd assume "review" is more of softening the other side to reach an agreement. UA probably wants to reduce the price and delay the order, maybe get some upgrades as well. Airbus will want to deliver those planes, so probably they'll be eager to stay on the price, get some extra and get na extra order - and A321LR would fit in nicely to both expectations. So, we might see a year or two of a "play tough" game, with Airbus delivering BOTH 350 and 321.
That's just a outsider prediction, but it would make success to both parties, wouldn't that?

Cheers,
Adam

Regarding what AA may be paying for its A350s, remember that the order was at launch pricing by US AIrways for A350 800s. Not a surprise if UA paid more.