Qatar Airways chief says will not take any Airbus A320neos in 2017

AirbusMDCFAN · Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:48 pm

Source/Link: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/qata ... 16330.html

The Gulf carrier has refused to take delivery of Airbus A320neos since December 2015, initially after performance issues with the aircraft's new engines.

"I have to scream at Airbus to get my planes faster. I am nearly eight destinations behind schedule because of delays in aircraft deliveries. I hope this will be resolved during this year," Al Baker told reporters at the ITB travel fair in Berlin.

Aside from the already known issues with the P&W 1100 GTF engines, what else is Mr./Sir Al Baker complaining about now with the NEOs, and why not just switch to the CFM LEAP 1A engines on the NEO fleet

PlanesNTrains · Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:54 pm

Assuming what he says is true, the problem with switching suppliers I'd think is that he's going to have to get in line with everyone else who've already ordered the CFM, among other issues.

KarelXWB · Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:57 pm

Indeed they won't take any because Qatar wants to swap its A320neo order to the larger A321neo.

QR to convert entire A320neo order to A321neo

lightsaber · Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:23 pm

Weird AL seems to be blaming others for over-expanding. All competition is hurting and QR isn't?

Lightsaber

pugman211 · Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:34 pm

He wouldn't be behind schedule if he took deliveries. Even Lufthansa has resumed taking some Neo's. And the A321neo's are flowing nicely down the line also.

Newbiepilot · Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:33 pm

Seems like this may be related to the switch to larger A321neos. When will the first A321neo deliver? It has been certified for a few months.

cheapgreek · Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:50 pm

Has the LOI on the 737MAX been finalized as an order?

PlanesNTrains · Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:09 am

cheapgreek wrote:
Has the LOI on the 737MAX been finalized as an order?

I think for now it's just an LOI or MOU - no contract.

3rdGen · Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:17 am

How does switching airframes make a difference its still the same engines

neutrino · Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:33 am

3rdGen wrote:
How does switching airframes make a difference its still the same engines

A320NEOs come with CFM LEAP and P&W GTF options. Qatar's engine order is of the latter. 737MAX is exclusively powered by LEAPs.

PlanesNTrains · Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:50 am

neutrino wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
How does switching airframes make a difference its still the same engines

A320NEOs come with CFM LEAP and P&W GTF options. Qatar's engine order is of the latter. 737MAX is exclusively powered by LEAPs.

Not sure, but I think he means how does switching from the A320neo to the A321neo solve the engine issues?

Pelly · Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:00 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
neutrino wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
How does switching airframes make a difference its still the same engines

A320NEOs come with CFM LEAP and P&W GTF options. Qatar's engine order is of the latter. 737MAX is exclusively powered by LEAPs.

Not sure, but I think he means how does switching from the A320neo to the A321neo solve the engine issues?

Deliveries in 2018 would mean engines fixed of all the recent durability issues which are an ever bigger issue for QR as they do a lot of MTOW take offs in hot coastal environments. PW can barely produce the required engines in 2017 let alone the higher number of spare engines required to keep the aircraft flying until the fixes are in. The switch to the A321 is something QR has been wanting to do, and if you want to do something like this that costs a lot of money the best time to do it is when you are in negotiations for contractual penalties.

chiad · Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:10 am

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europ ... SKBN16F1DZ

Quote:
The Gulf carrier wants to change its order for 50 A320neo family jets, which includes A319, A320 and A321 versions, to take only the larger A321neos, which would likely be powered by CFM engines.

KarelXWB · Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:40 am

I would be surprised if he can get any CFM engines in 2018. The engine backlog is huge.

oldannyboy · Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:09 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't their 321s have V2500s? So switching to CFM would not bring in any additional savings/commonality, beside (maybe?) a closer delivery date... better hang in there and stick to PW me thinks...

ikolkyo · Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:12 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't their 321s have V2500s? So switching to CFM would not bring in any additional savings/commonality, beside (maybe?) a closer delivery date... better hang in there and stick to PW me thinks...

The GTF and V2500 are two very different engines, commonality has to be very low with them.

oldannyboy · Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:30 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't their 321s have V2500s? So switching to CFM would not bring in any additional savings/commonality, beside (maybe?) a closer delivery date... better hang in there and stick to PW me thinks...

The GTF and V2500 are two very different engines, commonality has to be very low with them.

Exactly what I was trying to hint at.. had their current 321s been equipped with CFMs, then maybe it could have made some sense to switch manufacturer for the neo and go with the new CFM option, but since commonality is no priority of them, I think they'll (have to) stick to the PW engine...

ikolkyo · Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:42 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't their 321s have V2500s? So switching to CFM would not bring in any additional savings/commonality, beside (maybe?) a closer delivery date... better hang in there and stick to PW me thinks...

The GTF and V2500 are two very different engines, commonality has to be very low with them.

Exactly what I was trying to hint at.. had their current 321s been equipped with CFMs, then maybe it could have made some sense to switch manufacturer for the neo and go with the new CFM option, but since commonality is no priority of them, I think they'll (have to) stick to the PW engine...

In my eyes it means they don't have to stick with PW, they can go whatever route they would like.

oldannyboy · Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:18 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

The GTF and V2500 are two very different engines, commonality has to be very low with them.

Exactly what I was trying to hint at.. had their current 321s been equipped with CFMs, then maybe it could have made some sense to switch manufacturer for the neo and go with the new CFM option, but since commonality is no priority of them, I think they'll (have to) stick to the PW engine...

In my eyes it means they don't have to stick with PW, they can go whatever route they would like.

Indeed, but it's the PW that is *promising* to be the game changer....

ikolkyo · Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:06 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:

Exactly what I was trying to hint at.. had their current 321s been equipped with CFMs, then maybe it could have made some sense to switch manufacturer for the neo and go with the new CFM option, but since commonality is no priority of them, I think they'll (have to) stick to the PW engine...

In my eyes it means they don't have to stick with PW, they can go whatever route they would like.

Indeed, but it's the PW that is *promising* to be the game changer....

Looks like plenty of airlines don't care and have gone with the LEAP...

Newbiepilot · Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:23 pm

The PW1100G is coming with plenty of problems so I see why Qatar doesn't want it. IndiGo has been taking extra A320neos and is having to work with the Indian regulatory authorizes on investigating engine failures and the high number of removals

The Directorate General of Civil Aviation said late on Tuesday at least two incidents involving A320 NEO planes fitted with the engines flown by IndiGo - owned by InterGlobe Aviation - and privately-held GoAir - were under investigation.

And more

The DGCA has ordered the airlines to carry out inspections of the engines once they complete 1,000 hours, instead of 1,500 hours as recommended by Pratt & Whitney. It has also mandated repeat inspections every 500 hours thereafter.
It has also ordered the airlines not to fly the aircraft if metal chip particles are detected in the jet's engine oil - one of the common issues the engines have faced.

One industry source told Reuters Pratt & Whitney had earlier advised the airlines that they could still fly the engine for up to 10 hours after such particles had been detected.

The DGCA said the 10 hour provision has been revoked.

http://in.reuters.com/article/india-utc ... NKBN1672OO

There are certainly workarounds to deal with the technical issues on the PW1100G and many airlines have, but I can understand why Qatar does not want to operate the engine. The number of engine changes taking place on the PW1100G appears higher than would be expected from what I have read. Unplanned engine changes can be expensive and disruptive, so the CFM LeapX may be the better choice for Qatar even if it has slightly higher fuel burn.

Rajahdhani · Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:38 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Indeed, but it's the PW that is *promising* to be the game changer....

To back that up a little...

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/engine-maker-struggles-to-fix-reliability-issues-on-airbus-neo-jets/
...an A320neo powered by the GTF reported fuel savings on a six-hour flight of 17 percent compared to the former A320 classic model on the same route — 2 percent better than promised.

“The good news is, the engine’s fuel-burn reduction is exceeding all targets,” Kelly said. “The bad news is, it’s not staying on the wing as long as we want it.”

So, 2% forward, but 2 issues dragging down reliability.

Just to add to that;

The bearing compartment has been redesigned, and retrofits to all engines begin next month. Improved combustion chambers are being tested and are to be delivered in the fall.

Thus, finding their footing in 2018 seems like a decently capable assumption. How quickly, and how well, though - are the masters of their promise.

dtw2hyd · Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:02 pm

Go Air chief told it will take 18 months for PW to fix these issues. There is a tweet somewhere.

I think Indian DGCA being proactive ie., saving their rear-end by coming out with these issues. If they sit around and let vendors and airlines deal with these issues privately, they may get slapped with another downgrade from same CAAs who supposed to have certified these engines. It is too advanced for them theory is shot. No Dreamliner Deja Vu.

KarelXWB · Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:44 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Go Air chief told it will take 18 months for PW to fix these issues. There is a tweet somewhere.

The issues are pretty well documented:

https://imagr.eu/up/Yp47S_C5wVXRNVUAUMshi.jpg

A bearing seal fix is due next month, and combustion chamber improvements should be ready by September.

anshabhi · Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:03 pm

Surprisingly... IndiGo is launching flights to Doha,Qatar from April.
Gives rise to a conspiracy theory- did QR defer its orders for IndiGo?

dtw2hyd · Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:04 pm

I think regular boroscope inspections should mitigate any short term risks while PW takes care of things.

Being a narrow body doing domestic 1hr-2hr routes close to base also gives an advantage dealing with IRROPS.

PBH engines and top of the line mx agreements, 6E has almost no additional financial burden.

Shouldn't be a problem for Airbus, 6E or PW.

VTORD · Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:16 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Surprisingly... IndiGo is launching flights to Doha,Qatar from April.
Gives rise to a conspiracy theory- did Qatar cancel its orders for IndiGo?

QR has not cancelled the orders. They have pushed them back is what I am gathering from this thread....

anshabhi · Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:22 pm

VTORD wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Surprisingly... IndiGo is launching flights to Doha,Qatar from April.
Gives rise to a conspiracy theory- did Qatar cancel its orders for IndiGo?

QR has not cancelled the orders. They have pushed them back is what I am gathering from this thread....

thanks.. corrected it

KarelXWB · Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:12 pm

Small update from the Paris air show today:

Al Baker says it has nearly completed a contract to abandon Pratt & Whitney engines, switching to CFM for A321neo starting in 2H18. #PAS17

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 2378697728

Looks like the entire order will be upgraded to A321neo with CFM engines, with deliveries to start in the second half of next year.

EPA001 · Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:15 pm

KarelXWB wrote:

Al Baker says it has nearly completed a contract to abandon Pratt & Whitney engines, switching to CFM for A321neo starting in 2H18. #PAS17

Looks like the entire order will be upgraded to A321neo with CFM engines, with deliveries to start in the second half of next year.

Although not unexpected anymore it is still a remarkable change. And an embarrassing moment for P&W, no matter how hard they have worked to resolve the issues with their engine.

Polot · Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:23 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Small update from the Paris air show today:

Al Baker says it has nearly completed a contract to abandon Pratt & Whitney engines, switching to CFM for A321neo starting in 2H18. #PAS17

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 2378697728

Looks like the entire order will be upgraded to A321neo with CFM engines, with deliveries to start in the second half of next year.

And at the same time Al Baker is talking to BBD about C-series for Indian venture which are of course powered by PW. Probably how QR is getting out of their PW commitment for the Neo.

FriscoHeavy · Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:32 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
Has the LOI on the 737MAX been finalized as an order?

Yes, as of today:

The airline's chief executive Akbar Al Baker disclosed at the Paris air show today that he had finalised an agreement for 20 737 Max 8s first announced last October, along with 40 options and purchase rights. "We will take three or four from June next year. The first Maxes will be delivered in small numbers will replace older A320s that are going out of service from our mainline fleet."

Polot · Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:34 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Has the LOI on the 737MAX been finalized as an order?

Yes, as of today:

The airline's chief executive Akbar Al Baker disclosed at the Paris air show today that he had finalised an agreement for 20 737 Max 8s first announced last October, along with 40 options and purchase rights. "We will take three or four from June next year. The first Maxes will be delivered in small numbers will replace older A320s that are going out of service from our mainline fleet."

And, as I stated in the order thread, it looks like confirmation that QR themselves will be operating 737-8s and that they are not (all) destined for other carriers like Meridiana or the now scrapped Al Maha as some speculated.

KarelXWB · Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:01 pm

Polot wrote:
And, as I stated in the order thread, it looks like confirmation that QR themselves will be operating 737-8s and that they are not (all) destined for other carriers like Meridiana or the now scrapped Al Maha as some speculated.

There was no speculation, Al Baker himself stated that some 737 MAX aircraft will go to subsidiaries.

Polot · Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:09 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
There was no speculation, Al Baker himself stated that some 737 MAX aircraft will go to subsidiaries.

I am aware of that, but there are many here (and elsewhere) who thought all where going to go to subsidiaries with QR sticking to the A320neo. That is of course, assuming they believed that the LoI would actually be firm (i.e. Scott Hamilton from Leeham thought "“That’s smoke and mirrors...it’s a poke in the eye for Airbus, that’s all it is.”). And of course you yourself questioned what would happen to the Max order when QR announced they were cancelling their Al Maha plans.

frigatebird · Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:53 pm

Pure speculatiion from my part: A320 Conversion to A321neo with a switch to Leap engines, PW agrees in exchange for CS300 order with PW engines (look Al, these things work fine on the BBD, it's the Bus that has problems). And 737-8s to replace all the A320s eventually (CS300s to replace the A319).

TheGeordielad · Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:37 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Polot wrote:
And, as I stated in the order thread, it looks like confirmation that QR themselves will be operating 737-8s and that they are not (all) destined for other carriers like Meridiana or the now scrapped Al Maha as some speculated.

There was no speculation, Al Baker himself stated that some 737 MAX aircraft will go to subsidiaries.

Meridiana is getting 20 so the other 40 must be going to QR or Indian venture.

IranianMan123 · Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:48 pm

What is gonna happen to the airframes that have already been made?

george77300 · Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:58 pm

IranianMan123 wrote:
What is gonna happen to the airframes that have already been made?

If you mean the A320neo built for Qatar. They are being re painted and re fitted for other airlines.

KarelXWB · Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:59 am

IndiGo is taking most of the early QR A320neo aircraft.

Spiderguy252 · Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:21 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
cheapgreek wrote:
Has the LOI on the 737MAX been finalized as an order?

Yes, as of today:

The airline's chief executive Akbar Al Baker disclosed at the Paris air show today that he had finalised an agreement for 20 737 Max 8s first announced last October, along with 40 options and purchase rights. "We will take three or four from June next year. The first Maxes will be delivered in small numbers will replace older A320s that are going out of service from our mainline fleet."

They've ordered A320s but will take in A321s and 737-MAX8s? Do QR even know what they're doing or are they twisting in the wind with these seemingly garbled orders?

KarelXWB · Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:38 pm

Polot wrote:
That is of course, assuming they believed that the LoI would actually be firm (i.e. Scott Hamilton from Leeham thought "“That’s smoke and mirrors...it’s a poke in the eye for Airbus, that’s all it is.”).

Al Baker being Al Baker, that could have been very well the case.

And of course you yourself questioned what would happen to the Max order when QR announced they were cancelling their Al Maha plans.

As Al Maha is shelved, it was a sincere question. Note that QR firmed up only 20 instead of 60 aircraft previously planned. With one subsidiary gone, they don't need that many aircraft anymore. For now.

TheGeordielad wrote:
Meridiana is getting 20 so the other 40 must be going to QR or Indian venture.

They only firmed up 20 aircraft.

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