According to Flightglobal, IAG has successfully shuffled their delivery schedule on their A350 and 787-10s. They are committed to take 43 A350, including 18 A350-1000 for BA 2018-2022, and 12 787-10 for the period 2017-2021.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... le-434560/

Have tried to find any listing for BA on the A350 production list but the only listing is for IB. Does anyone know when they will actually receive their 1st one?

I know BA only operate First on their 789s...wonder if they will put F on their A350s.

Article also quotes WW reiterating his interest in 2nd hand aircraft, but also his reasoning on choosing new build A330s.

Presumably some of these A350 and B787-10 are for B777-236ER replacement?

MileHFL400 wrote:

Presumably some of these A350 and B787-10 are for B777-236ER replacement?

None at all. IAG has stated publicly that BA's 777-236ERs will see 30 years in service. That means the first doesn't come due for replacement until 2027.
The A350-1000s are to replace an equal number of 744s, that's been made clear several times in investor presentations. If there is a market downturn, the 787-10s will likely replace further 744s. If there isn't they will mostly be for expansion - either directly or by freeing up other aircraft.
There are 3 772 non-ERs still in the fleet. They have a useful niche in flights from LHR to eastern North America and to the Middle East, which BA have lots of. Now what the replacement policy is for these isn't so clear.

MileHFL400 wrote:

Presumably some of these A350 and B787-10 are for B777-236ER replacement?

They just need a cabin refresh, not a whole new aircraft.

LupineChemist wrote:

MileHFL400 wrote:

Presumably some of these A350 and B787-10 are for B777-236ER replacement?

They just need a cabin refresh, not a whole new aircraft.

I'm sure the oldest ones are coming on to 20 years old?

MileHFL400 wrote:

LupineChemist wrote:

MileHFL400 wrote:

Presumably some of these A350 and B787-10 are for B777-236ER replacement?

They just need a cabin refresh, not a whole new aircraft.

I'm sure the oldest ones are coming on to 20 years old?

Oldest 777-236ERs entered service in 1997, yes. So when they say (as they have) they intend a 30 year life for them, that means a 2027 replacement date.

Andy33 wrote:

MileHFL400 wrote:

LupineChemist wrote:

They just need a cabin refresh, not a whole new aircraft.

I'm sure the oldest ones are coming on to 20 years old?

Oldest 777-236ERs entered service in 1997, yes. So when they say (as they have) they intend a 30 year life for them, that means a 2027 replacement date.

I see, isn't 30 years going to push these birds very close to cycle limits?

scotron11 wrote:

According to Flightglobal, IAG has successfully shuffled their delivery schedule on their A350 and 787-10s. They are committed to take 43 A350, including 18 A350-1000 for BA 2018-2022, and 12 787-10 for the period 2017-2021.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... le-434560/

Have tried to find any listing for BA on the A350 production list but the only listing is for IB. Does anyone know when they will actually receive their 1st one?

I know BA only operate First on their 789s...wonder if they will put F on their A350s.

Article also quotes WW reiterating his interest in 2nd hand aircraft, but also his reasoning on choosing new build A330s.

I wonder if BA have assumed UAs A350-1000 slots?

MileHFL400 wrote:

I see, isn't 30 years going to push these birds very close to cycle limits?

Without knowing what the upper limit is for a 772-ER, these planes tend to do no more than two takeoffs and two landings a day.
BA have four 744s new in 1990 due to remain flying for another 18 months at least, if that's a clue.

Wpr8e wrote:

I wonder if BA have assumed UAs A350-1000 slots?

They've always had slots for A350-1000 deliveries starting in 2018. What has changed is that they've stretched the deliveries out so the order is complete in 2022 instead of 2021, so no, this is not a new order, nor is it specifically using UA's vacated delivery slots.

So no more B787-9s to come? They're now B787-8s ?

Last month they published their annual Financial Report, and part of it included committed orders and available options.
There are 4 788s and 2 789s to come in the next 18 months. Originally the whole batch would have been 789s, but the order was amended.
Many people, including me, thought there were 5 789s still to come as well as the 788s, but we were obviously wrong,
Then there are the 12 787-10s, and the report also shows 6 unexercised 787 options - type unspecified.

Andy33 wrote:

MileHFL400 wrote:

Without knowing what the upper limit is for a 772-ER, these planes tend to do no more than two takeoffs and two landings a day.

777-200 LOV 60,000Cy/160,000hrs - according to G-INFO, G-VIIA had 87,621hrs on 08/06/2016. Even if it did two cycles per day for 30 years, that's 21,900Cy over thirty years.

A350s are due summer 2018 to BA.

Andy33 wrote:

The A350-1000s are to replace an equal number of 744s, that's been made clear several times in investor presentations.

The configuration is going to be interesting; how close will it be to the similarly sized 77W? I think that we can assume that the F cabin will be smaller than the 14 seats on the 744 and 77W: perhaps with 10 or 12 seats. Then, what we do know is that BA's new J seat will feature on the aircraft and, in my opinion, that is why we are likely to see them deployed where BA has a higher degree of competition. So, for example, the A350 could be deployed on HND, HKG or even SIN-SYD, whilst the 77W's are used to displace 744's from the likes of PHX, DEN or LAS.

Their 77W are configured with a total of 299 seats ..14F 56J 44Y+ and 185 Y.

The 744s that are to be replaced by these 18 A350s are indeed the ones that operate to PHX, DEN, and LAS, along with CPT, KWI, MEX and ACC.
They also visit JFK, BOS, YVR and MIA regularly though they only provide some of the rotations on these routes.
Current configuration of this subfleet is 14F 52J 36W 235Y.

BA frequently shuffle the fleet around so it's entirely possible, even likely, that A350s will enter service on routes that go nowhere near these airports and displace other planes to allow the 744s to leave the fleet.

Andy33 wrote:

The 744s that are to be replaced by these 18 A350s are indeed the ones that operate to PHX, DEN, and LAS, along with CPT, KWI, MEX and ACC.
They also visit JFK, BOS, YVR and MIA regularly though they only provide some of the rotations on these routes.
Current configuration of this subfleet is 14F 52J 36W 235Y.

BA frequently shuffle the fleet around so it's entirely possible, even likely, that A350s will enter service on routes that go nowhere near these airports and displace other planes to allow the 744s to leave the fleet.

I believe YVR sees this configuration exclusively for the winter season. Summer is A380, all is 1x daily.

Andy33 wrote:

The 744s that are to be replaced by these 18 A350s are indeed the ones that operate to PHX, DEN, and LAS, along with CPT, KWI, MEX and ACC.
They also visit JFK, BOS, YVR and MIA regularly though they only provide some of the rotations on these routes.
Current configuration of this subfleet is 14F 52J 36W 235Y.

BA frequently shuffle the fleet around so it's entirely possible, even likely, that A350s will enter service on routes that go nowhere near these airports and displace other planes to allow the 744s to leave the fleet.

Andy, I am wondering what kind of configuration BA would go for the 350 if they are to substitute for 744, given that they currently seat an extra 36 pax in Y vis a vis the 77W...?

oldannyboy wrote:

Andy33 wrote:

The 744s that are to be replaced by these 18 A350s are indeed the ones that operate to PHX, DEN, and LAS, along with CPT, KWI, MEX and ACC.
They also visit JFK, BOS, YVR and MIA regularly though they only provide some of the rotations on these routes.
Current configuration of this subfleet is 14F 52J 36W 235Y.

BA frequently shuffle the fleet around so it's entirely possible, even likely, that A350s will enter service on routes that go nowhere near these airports and displace other planes to allow the 744s to leave the fleet.

Andy, I am wondering what kind of configuration BA would go for the 350 if they are to substitute for 744, given that they currently seat an extra 36 pax in Y vis a vis the 77W...?

If anyone knows, they're not saying...
It is fair to say that BA definitely doesn't regard matching economy capacity as vital. Just look at their other 18 744s - the ones that got a refurb in 2015/2016 and were reconfigured to 14F 86J 30W 145Y and will last well past 2022.
Now if they couldn't fit 52 or more J seats in the A350-1000s, then they'd be worried.

Andy33 wrote:

oldannyboy wrote:

Andy33 wrote:

The 744s that are to be replaced by these 18 A350s are indeed the ones that operate to PHX, DEN, and LAS, along with CPT, KWI, MEX and ACC.
They also visit JFK, BOS, YVR and MIA regularly though they only provide some of the rotations on these routes.
Current configuration of this subfleet is 14F 52J 36W 235Y.

BA frequently shuffle the fleet around so it's entirely possible, even likely, that A350s will enter service on routes that go nowhere near these airports and displace other planes to allow the 744s to leave the fleet.

Andy, I am wondering what kind of configuration BA would go for the 350 if they are to substitute for 744, given that they currently seat an extra 36 pax in Y vis a vis the 77W...?

If anyone knows, they're not saying...
It is fair to say that BA definitely doesn't regard matching economy capacity as vital. Just look at their other 18 744s - the ones that got a refurb in 2015/2016 and were reconfigured to 14F 86J 30W 145Y and will last well past 2022.
Now if they couldn't fit 52 or more J seats in the A350-1000s, then they'd be worried.

Yeah Andy, you're absolutely right. Spot-on, actually! BA just don't care about Y capacity - they never did! I remember their 1011s sat only 136 pax in Y!
Provided the 350 covers the same basic F/J/W numbers (approx. 12-14/50-65/30ish??) they'll probably be happy... 165/185 Y? what do you reckon?

TedToToe wrote:

Andy33 wrote:

The A350-1000s are to replace an equal number of 744s, that's been made clear several times in investor presentations.

The configuration is going to be interesting; how close will it be to the similarly sized 77W? I think that we can assume that the F cabin will be smaller than the 14 seats on the 744 and 77W: perhaps with 10 or 12 seats. Then, what we do know is that BA's new J seat will feature on the aircraft and, in my opinion, that is why we are likely to see them deployed where BA has a higher degree of competition. So, for example, the A350 could be deployed on HND, HKG or even SIN-SYD, whilst the 77W's are used to displace 744's from the likes of PHX, DEN or LAS.

I doubt denver will get 77W in the short term in winter anyways. In the northern winter schedule LHR DEN is operated by mid J configured 747 due to the high demand in business class for travellers proceeding to the ski resorts.

Subu

subramak1 wrote:

I doubt denver will get 77W in the short term in winter anyways. In the northern winter schedule LHR DEN is operated by mid J configured 747 due to the high demand in business class for travellers proceeding to the ski resorts.

Actually, it is the 77W that is slightly more premium heavy, with 14F and 56J versus 14F and 52J on the mid-J 744's.

TedToToe wrote:

subramak1 wrote:

I doubt denver will get 77W in the short term in winter anyways. In the northern winter schedule LHR DEN is operated by mid J configured 747 due to the high demand in business class for travellers proceeding to the ski resorts.

Actually, it is the 77W that is slightly more premium heavy, with 14F and 56J versus 14F and 52J on the mid-J 744's.

I think the mid J 744s are 70 J class as compared to 77W. I believe the low J version has 52 business class seats.

Subu

subramak1 wrote:

TedToToe wrote:

subramak1 wrote:

I doubt denver will get 77W in the short term in winter anyways. In the northern winter schedule LHR DEN is operated by mid J configured 747 due to the high demand in business class for travellers proceeding to the ski resorts.

Actually, it is the 77W that is slightly more premium heavy, with 14F and 56J versus 14F and 52J on the mid-J 744's.

I think the mid J 744s are 70 J class as compared to 77W. I believe the low J version has 52 business class seats.

Subu

All the 70J-configured 744s have now been converted to 'High J' with 86 J seats - 18 aircraft in all. There are no aircraft still flying with a 70J cabin.
A further 5 aircraft from the 'Low J' pool are also due for conversion over the coming months. They will be the only aircraft from the 52J pool to have been converted, with no plans for further conversions at present.

Details of the entire BA fleet and their particular configurations can be found here: http://www.thebasource.com

One area that the A35K differs from the 77W is the spacing between the cabin doors. This is because the 77W has five and the A35K only four on each side. Look at the seat map for BA's 77W's and your will see that the size of the F cabin between doors 1 and 2, and the J cabin between doors 2 and 3 has pretty much been decided for them. With the A35K, BA will be able to have a smaller F cabin, then split the J cabin forward and aft of door 2. I think this gives them a bit more flexibility when deciding the number of J seats.

MileHFL400 wrote:

I see, isn't 30 years going to push these birds very close to cycle limits?

That is the idea, isn't it

Up to and including 2015 the CAA 'G-INFO' web site published annually the Total Time flown by individual aircraft up to 31 December in the previous year. I have this data to 31 December 2013 and to 31 December 2014 for nearly all (40 out of 43) of BA's 772ERs.

According to the CAA these 40 aircraft flew a total of 201,208 hrs in calendar year 2014. This is an average of 5,030 hrs per aircraft. If an aircraft was operated for this average time in each of 30 years it would accumulate a Total Time of 150,900 hrs. So at this level of usage BA could fly each of their 772ERs for 31 years and just a little more than 8 months before reaching the 160,000 hrs limit.

I have also briefly checked the number of cycles completed in the 31 days of July 2016 (summer high season) for just the five oldest of BA's 772ERs on the 'The BA Source' web site. The results are pretty consistent probably because the LHR operational curfew severely limits opportunities to operate more than a single daily cycle:

G-RAES: 26 cycles in July '16
G-VIIA: 27 cycles in July '16
G-VIIB: 29 cycles in July '16
G-VIIC: 26 cycles in July '16
G-VIID: 26.5 cycles in July '16

So it looks as if anything higher than an average of one rotation per day is, if it ever happens, likely to be very rare. Note that arithmetically one rotation per day for 30 years comes out at a total of 10,957.5 rotations, well below the maximum permissible.

pegasus1 wrote:

All the 70J-configured 744s have now been converted to 'High J' with 86 J seats - 18 aircraft in all. There are no aircraft still flying with a 70J cabin.
A further 5 aircraft from the 'Low J' pool are also due for conversion over the coming months. They will be the only aircraft from the 52J pool to have been converted, with no plans for further conversions at present.

At the 2016 IAG Capital Markets Day, it was announced that BA would have 23 744's in the fleet at the end of 2020, an increase of 4 from the previously published information. Obviously, 18 of these are the Super High-J which have already been refurbished. Pegasus1, if the other 5 are also being converted to 86J and refurbished in the process, it would make sense. I don't think this information has previously been in the public domain. Is it from a reliable source?

BA's first A350 production slot is MSN 332. This looks like a 2019 delivery to me.

KarelXWB wrote:

BA's first A350 production slot is MSN 332. This looks like a 2019 delivery to me.

Is that just BA or all of IAG?

Who is going to get the 350 first? IB, EI, or BA?

LupineChemist wrote:

KarelXWB wrote:

BA's first A350 production slot is MSN 332. This looks like a 2019 delivery to me.

Is that just BA or all of IAG?

Who is going to get the 350 first? IB, EI, or BA?

IB will be first, starting from MSN 219.

¿IB first A350 delivery date?

tonystan wrote:

A350s are due summer 2018 to BA.

According to the attached production list, BA's first is No.342 and since they're only just at the 100 mark, I think 2018 is not possible. Iberia should receive its first (219) and possibly, VS (284).

https://sites.google.com/site/a350xwbpr ... ction-list

To my immense disappointment, EI won't be getting A350s. The original plan was that it would get six, beginning with c.197, but this has now been reassigned to VN. EI's order has been taken over by IAG and it has assigned these to IB. The reason? EI says it is sticking with 330s, which is a fine aircraft no doubt, but with its hub at Dublin growing, it doesn't seem to make sense to stay with an aircraft of the same capacity they've had for the last 20 years. My guess: the case made by IB for these aircraft was better than that made by EI and so, IB got them instead. I'm sure that we'll see 350s in EI colours at some stage in the future.

Hopefully, yes, the A350 will look very nice in Irish colors.

How come they have assigned #197 to VN and not to IB?

kaitak wrote:

The reason? EI says it is sticking with 330s, which is a fine aircraft no doubt, but with its hub at Dublin growing, it doesn't seem to make sense to stay with an aircraft of the same capacity they've had for the last 20 years. My guess: the case made by IB for these aircraft was better than that made by EI and so, IB got them instead. I'm sure that we'll see 350s in EI colours at some stage in the future.

The A350 is a bigger aircraft but it is also a lot more capable, with that capability being of questionable need for EI while just presenting itself as excess weight on many of EI's routes. Expanding TATL narrowbody operations at EI (going from 4 757s to at least 7 A321LRs) will naturally fragment EI's traffic (e.g. some of those people on EI's BDL flight no doubt use to drive down and take one of EI's JFK flights) freeing up more seats on the A333s for the local markets where they are used.

Polot wrote:

kaitak wrote:

The reason? EI says it is sticking with 330s, which is a fine aircraft no doubt, but with its hub at Dublin growing, it doesn't seem to make sense to stay with an aircraft of the same capacity they've had for the last 20 years. My guess: the case made by IB for these aircraft was better than that made by EI and so, IB got them instead. I'm sure that we'll see 350s in EI colours at some stage in the future.

The A350 is a bigger aircraft but it is also a lot more capable, with that capability being of questionable need for EI while just presenting itself as excess weight on many of EI's routes. Expanding TATL narrowbody operations at EI (going from 4 757s to at least 7 A321LRs) will naturally fragment EI's traffic (e.g. some of those people on EI's BDL flight no doubt use to drive down and take one of EI's JFK flights) freeing up more seats on the A333s for the local markets where they are used.

And yet, EI has no Airbus A330-900/800 on order.

Dutchy wrote:

Polot wrote:

kaitak wrote:

The reason? EI says it is sticking with 330s, which is a fine aircraft no doubt, but with its hub at Dublin growing, it doesn't seem to make sense to stay with an aircraft of the same capacity they've had for the last 20 years. My guess: the case made by IB for these aircraft was better than that made by EI and so, IB got them instead. I'm sure that we'll see 350s in EI colours at some stage in the future.

The A350 is a bigger aircraft but it is also a lot more capable, with that capability being of questionable need for EI while just presenting itself as excess weight on many of EI's routes. Expanding TATL narrowbody operations at EI (going from 4 757s to at least 7 A321LRs) will naturally fragment EI's traffic (e.g. some of those people on EI's BDL flight no doubt use to drive down and take one of EI's JFK flights) freeing up more seats on the A333s for the local markets where they are used.

And yet, EI has no Airbus A330-900/800 on order.

I sort of expect some more A330 ceos for EI..either end of the line top ups or A333s from IB as the A350s arrive in numbers there.

Armodeen wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Polot wrote:

The A350 is a bigger aircraft but it is also a lot more capable, with that capability being of questionable need for EI while just presenting itself as excess weight on many of EI's routes. Expanding TATL narrowbody operations at EI (going from 4 757s to at least 7 A321LRs) will naturally fragment EI's traffic (e.g. some of those people on EI's BDL flight no doubt use to drive down and take one of EI's JFK flights) freeing up more seats on the A333s for the local markets where they are used.

And yet, EI has no Airbus A330-900/800 on order.

I sort of expect some more A330 ceos for EI..either end of the line top ups or A333s from IB as the A350s arrive in numbers there.

Perhaps, but IB has 17 A340's to replace. The IB A330's are quite young indeed: A330-200: Avg. age 1.2 Years; A330-300 Avg. age 4.0years, that is another 18 a/c.

kaitak wrote:

tonystan wrote:

A350s are due summer 2018 to BA.

According to the attached production list, BA's first is No.342 and since they're only just at the 100 mark, I think 2018 is not possible. Iberia should receive its first (219) and possibly, VS (284).

Last year BA rescheduled A350 deliveries a bit. First one will arrive in 2019 instead of 2018 previously planned.

KarelXWB wrote:

IB will be first, starting from MSN 219.

Uhmn...so ln 221 sections could start arriving soon given that PR had been saying that their first A359 is due for delivery 2Q2018?

There are also the leased-in 773s that might be due for replacement with the A35K. The 777-36N(ER) leased from GECAS on short lease contracts in particular.

These are on (IIRC) ten year leases so might be subject to churn as replacing them will be easier on the books than a fully-owned 772ER.