Garuda applies for LAX

LAXintl · Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:54 pm

Garuda Indonesia is trying to make its come back to the US.

Carrier has applied with the DOT for authority to recommence service to Los Angeles this time via Tokyo.

Carrier proposes utilizing 777-300ER 3x per week on a CGK-NRT-LAX routing effective November 2017.

OST-2017-0030

=

Good luck to them, but frankly I don't see this not being any different than previous failed 5th freedom attempts by Thai and Malaysia.

mercure1 · Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:09 pm

When and how did GA service USA before?

Suppose GA will become the low price discounter on crowded Tokyo segment to help fill planes.

I've never really heard of Americans visiting Indonesia the manner Europeans do. What is the market?

santi319 · Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:13 pm

mercure1 wrote:
I've never really heard of Americans visiting Indonesia the manner Europeans do. What is the market?

I believe it will be a mix of diaspora (VFR) and business..

EddieDude · Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:18 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Suppose GA will become the low price discounter on crowded Tokyo segment to help fill planes.

So, now that DL is dismantling its NRT hub, maybe DL will have an incentive to also place its code on GA's CGK-NRT-LAX flights and contribute some passengers.

I

DCA-ROCguy · Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:21 pm

Is Garuda ordering or leasing 787's? I don't see them on the Wikipedia list of 787 customers, for whatever that's worth. It seems to me like a smaller a/c more frequently would have better chances.

I remember seeing a Malaysia 744 at LAX some years ago and am glad I caught sight of it!

Jim

LAXintl · Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:25 pm

GA operated LAX from the 1980s through late 1990s using mix of DC-10, B742 and MD-11. Routings were via HNL and basically a milk run such as Jakarta-Denpasar-Biak-Honolulu-LAX.

The largest US-Indonesia market is to DPS(Bali), not Jakarta.

In the DOT application, GA estimates is first year load-factor will be mere 55%, so obviously its not looking for big pay day.

GARUDAROD · Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:37 pm

Well this is interesting. This is now the third start up date since they announced the return to LAX. First is was supposed to
start in MAR 17, then JUN 17, now, NOV 17. For purely nostalgic reasons, I hope they come back, but it doesnt seem viable.
The big market was to DPS, but the largest Indonesian population in the world outside Indonesia and the Netherlands is in the LAX area.
Previous service was from 1984-1997. Service started as a joint service DC-10 service with Continental on a routing JKT-GUM as
a GA Flight, then GUM-HNL-LAX as a CO flight. When GA started their own service, again with the DC-10, the routing was
CGK-DPS-BIK-HNL-LAX vv. The routing dropped the BIK stop with the introduction of the MD-11, and was CGK-HNL-LAX-HNL-DPS-CGK.

timpdx · Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:55 pm

The problem with one stop service in East Asia is that all of the sudden you are but one option to CGK. Korean, Asiana, ANA, JAL, EVA, PAL, Cathay,the Chinese carriers also offer one stops via East Asia from LAX. Tough market. But, hey, I welcome Garuda back to LAX.

masgniw · Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:56 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Carrier proposes utilizing 777-300ER 3x per week on a CGK-NRT-LAX routing effective November 2017.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Is Garuda ordering or leasing 787's? I don't see them on the Wikipedia list of 787 customers, for whatever that's worth. It seems to me like a smaller a/c more frequently would have better chances.

Jim

Yea the 777-300ER seems like too much plane. Wouldn't it be possible to have their A333's or A332's serve the route more efficiently?

BuildingMyBento · Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:00 pm

Semoga sukses dgn rencanamu, Garuda!...but I'm not too hopeful about this one.
There isn't even a significant expat population in the states, though pockets indeed exist in California and NYC/Philly, among other places.

Coming from NY, I'd sooner fly a Japanese airline (as mentioned above, one-stop shop), but from California, they'd get priority. Not to mention, they'd be my preference for a SkyTeam carrier to Indo.

NickLAX · Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:11 pm

Find this bizarre - used to fly KUL-NRT-LAX a bit on MH and likely 50% of the plane wasn't all the way through KUL-LAX - lots onboard/offboarding at NRT.

When that routing for MH was KUL-TPE-LAX, I would take the TPE-LAX segment in a VERY discounted Biz last minute and see that most of us in Biz came on board in TPE. May have just been my specific travel periods, but I don't get why GA wouldn't align with DL on do a timed through service from CGK to LAX with GA flying the CGK-HND and DL HND-LAX. This may even allow DL to keep the 772 on that route even in the lull periods of the year. Don't get why SEA carriers keep pushing for this, now if it was 3 times a week on a 787 or A350 NONSTOP - maybe you have something, but the fuel and ancillary costs may even make that difficult.

mercure1 · Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:25 pm

NickLAX wrote:
Don't get why SEA carriers keep pushing for this

Can we say ego, pride, nationalism, politics, etc?

Seems having a flight link to the U.S covers many of these feelings regardless of real business case or not.

(p.s. not much different than so many African nations wanting air links to Paris or London by their poor national airlines)

nadavatar64 · Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:34 pm

Seems very odd but I never say never to an exotic plane in LAX!

MIflyer12 · Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:37 pm

timpdx wrote:
The problem with one stop service in East Asia is that all of the sudden you are but one option to CGK. Korean, Asiana, ANA, JAL, EVA, PAL, Cathay,the Chinese carriers also offer one stops via East Asia from LAX.

LAX-CGK is 8,985 statute miles. If it's not one-stop, it's a ULH route - with a poor load factor to start and heavy VFR (not paid J) traffic. With a 77W they might as well set piles of money on fire as start that.

LAXintl · Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:13 pm

I looked up top market share selling carriers between LAX-CGK and as of S16, they were CX, CI and BR. Between the 3 they have near 65% of customers in the market with their multiple daily flights.

NickLAX wrote:
I don't get why GA wouldn't align with DL on do a timed through service from CGK to LAX with GA flying the CGK-HND and DL HND-LAX. This may even allow DL to keep the 772 on that route even in the lull periods of the year. Don't get why SEA carriers keep pushing for

I am not sure GA-DL have that much commercial interest with each other. Even in Skymiles, GA is a lower ranked - group 3 partner.

GA did however enter into agreement with China Airlines and has been feeding CI North America flights via TPE.

raylee67 · Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:14 pm

This is a prestige route and nothing else. The VFR market between LA and Jakarta is small compare to other Asian destinations. GA is effectively using a 3-weekly service to compete with 3-daily connections by CX, BR, KE, etc.

I think GA knows it and is trying to really just focus on Tokyo - LAX to soften the financial impact. I am not optimistic that GA would succeed though. It can only compete on price and will bleed tons of money. MH and TG couldn't make NRT - LAX work. Don't see how GA would do better than them.

cesar666cu · Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:40 pm

Let's not forget that Garuda also flies DPS-NRT also with a 777.
I am almost sure they will schedule it to allow connections with the NRT-LAX flight.

EddieDude · Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:06 pm

cesar666cu wrote:
Let's not forget that Garuda also flies DPS-NRT also with a 777.
I am almost sure they will schedule it to allow connections with the NRT-LAX flight.

Agree. That way passengers would be able to fly from NRT to CGK or to DPS, thus avoiding the DPS-bound pax another connection.

LAXintl · Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:14 pm

cesar666cu wrote:
Let's not forget that Garuda also flies DPS-NRT also with a 777.
I am almost sure they will schedule it to allow connections with the NRT-LAX flight.

Virtually impossible. Have you looked at the DPS-NRT flight times?

DPS arrives into NRT at 0820. A 1000am departure to LAX would mean a 0245 arrival into LAX. Not only totally unappealing, but FIS is closed.

Return is just as bad. NRT-DPS departs NRT at 11am and inorder to arrive from LAX at 0930 lets say one would need to depart LAX at about 4am.

HeeseokKoo · Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:25 pm

LAXintl wrote:
cesar666cu wrote:
Let's not forget that Garuda also flies DPS-NRT also with a 777.
I am almost sure they will schedule it to allow connections with the NRT-LAX flight.

Virtually impossible. Have you looked at the DPS-NRT flight times?

DPS arrives into NRT at 0820. A 1000am departure to LAX would mean a 0245 arrival into LAX. Not only totally unappealing, but FIS is closed.

Return is just as bad. NRT-DPS departs NRT at 11am and inorder to arrive from LAX at 0930 lets say one would need to depart LAX at about 4am.

I expected something like this:
CGK-NRT//NRT-LAX 0100-0930//1300-0600 (similar to SQ8)
LAX-NRT//NRT-CGK 0800-1300+1//1430-2100 (similar to SQ11)
And move NRT-DPS by several hours:
DPS-NRT//NRT-DPS 0100-0800//1100-1730 (current schedule) => move to NRT-DPS 1430-2100

mercure1 · Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:28 pm

You guys are making presumptions that getting/adjusting slots at NRT is so easy.
Airport operating at capacity with record movements counts these days.

HeeseokKoo · Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:46 pm

mercure1 wrote:
You guys are making presumptions that getting/adjusting slots at NRT is so easy.
Airport operating at capacity with record movements counts these days.

NRT is at capacity only in the late afternoon.

http://www.schedule-coordination.jp/arc ... index.html
http://www.schedule-coordination.jp/arc ... _graph.pdf (summer 2016)

aemoreira1981 · Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:04 am

Should be done with an A332. A B77W is too much plane. I wonder if the fact that the A332s don't have power ports in Y might have factored into this.

mercure1 · Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:24 am

Is the GA A332/A333 fleet even provisioned for longhaul operations? Do they have crew rest facilities for example?

When GA resumed Amsterdam with A332, they operated via Dubai so the sectors were not very long.

grbauc · Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:16 am

mercure1 wrote:
When and how did GA service USA before?

Suppose GA will become the low price discounter on crowded Tokyo segment to help fill planes.

I've never really heard of Americans visiting Indonesia the manner Europeans do. What is the market?

The diving is some of the best if not the best. It's definitely the most diverse Raja Ampat the amount of fish is second to none anywhere in the world that I found.

crownvic · Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:35 am

GARUDAROD wrote:
Well this is interesting. This is now the third start up date since they announced the return to LAX. First is was supposed to
start in MAR 17, then JUN 17, now, NOV 17. For purely nostalgic reasons, I hope they come back, but it doesnt seem viable.
The big market was to DPS, but the largest Indonesian population in the world outside Indonesia and the Netherlands is in the LAX area.
Previous service was from 1984-1997. Service started as a joint service DC-10 service with Continental on a routing JKT-GUM as
a GA Flight, then GUM-HNL-LAX as a CO flight. When GA started their own service, again with the DC-10, the routing was
CGK-DPS-BIK-HNL-LAX vv. The routing dropped the BIK stop with the introduction of the MD-11, and was CGK-HNL-LAX-HNL-DPS-CGK.

Hey GARUDAROD...I believe you once worked for Garuda. Have you been in contact with them? I heard you used to be their head of fuel operations. Are you going to try and get your job back with them? Their were rumors that Garuda pulled out of LAX, after you resigned and they could not replace you. Is this true? I am sure you would know.

Zaqattaq787 · Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:15 am

timpdx wrote:
The problem with one stop service in East Asia is that all of the sudden you are but one option to CGK. Korean, Asiana, ANA, JAL, EVA, PAL, Cathay,the Chinese carriers also offer one stops via East Asia from LAX. Tough market. But, hey, I welcome Garuda back to LAX.

This and more. A Google Flights search of LAX-CGK for random dates in March reveals sub-$800 fares on QR far lower than either Japanese carrier with 4 hours longer total travel time.

It's unrealistic but I could see a demand for low fares on an AirAsia X A333 on DPS-PUS-LAX.

BreninTW · Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:10 am

LAXintl wrote:
GA did however enter into agreement with China Airlines and has been feeding CI North America flights via TPE.

Except that GA no longer flies its own metal to TPE. They route the CGK - TPE through code-share partners or through SIN.

wolfsburg · Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:40 am

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Is Garuda ordering or leasing 787's? I don't see them on the Wikipedia list of 787 customers, for whatever that's worth. It seems to me like a smaller a/c more frequently would have better chances.

I remember seeing a Malaysia 744 at LAX some years ago and am glad I caught sight of it!

Jim

Garuda has ordered some A330neos... No 787 is confirmed

Yahnih · Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:44 am

Any updates if this is still happening?

LAX772LR · Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:16 am

LAXintl wrote:
A 1000am departure to LAX would mean a 0245 arrival into LAX. Not only totally unappealing, but FIS is closed.

I though TBIT maintained a skeleton crew for 24hr availability?

Or at least didn't they use to?

LAXintl · Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:32 am

No sir TBIT is not and has never been a 24-hrs FIS.

Sure there might be a skeleton crew that stays overnight dealing with things like detained folks and such, but for landing rights no service is authorized outside normal FIS hours. There can be delayed flights, but no airline will get a schedule approved outside the core FIS hours.
Also things like TSA close up at night at TBIT and don't reopen till 0600.

To my knowledge there is only a single 24-hr FIS facility in the US - JFK T4, not even MIA(much to bellyache of AA) is 24-hrs.

BuildingMyBento · Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:52 am

mercure1 wrote:
NickLAX wrote:
Don't get why SEA carriers keep pushing for this

Can we say ego, pride, nationalism, politics, etc?

Seems having a flight link to the U.S covers many of these feelings regardless of real business case or not.

(p.s. not much different than so many African nations wanting air links to Paris or London by their poor national airlines)

...except that the UK and France have colonial ties to many countries in Africa. US-Indonesia historical ties are limited to the CIA operations in the 1950s, and a statue of Obama in Jakarta.

LAX772LR · Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:11 am

LAXintl wrote:
No sir TBIT is not and has never been a 24-hrs FIS.

What time does it close?

LAXintl wrote:
not even MIA(much to bellyache of AA) is 24-hrs.

That part I could've personally attested to:
landed 3:30am GIG-MIA, and sat for an hour and a half waiting for FIS to open. Annoying.

LAXintl · Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:43 pm

Hours change season to season but currently, the core window is 0600-0000 for airline schedule landing rights to be approved at TBIT.

GARUDAROD · Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:30 pm

To the surprise on no one, the plan to return to LAX has been cancelled, again, due to another management change at Garuda
and to the loss making routes currently ongoing in other areas.

CarlosSi · Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:25 pm

Bummer ^^. Though I'm not from LA, it would've been quite an exotic route, all the way from Southeast Asia.

wedgetail737 · Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:30 am

Maybe Garuda will consider SEA or YVR later.

PayaLebar · Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:45 am

GARUDAROD wrote:
To the surprise on no one, the plan to return to LAX has been cancelled, again, due to another management change at Garuda
and to the loss making routes currently ongoing in other areas.

There is just way too much competition from SE Asia to LAX. GA is better off to continue with their current code-share with DL.

mojoe24 · Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:06 am

Is there a source for Garuda cancelling the route?

wedgetail737 · Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:35 am

Yes...Garuda has decided not to persue LAX.

jfk777 · Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:00 am

LAXintl wrote:
No sir TBIT is not and has never been a 24-hrs FIS.

Sure there might be a skeleton crew that stays overnight dealing with things like detained folks and such, but for landing rights no service is authorized outside normal FIS hours. There can be delayed flights, but no airline will get a schedule approved outside the core FIS hours.
Also things like TSA close up at night at TBIT and don't reopen till 0600.

To my knowledge there is only a single 24-hr FIS facility in the US - JFK T4, not even MIA(much to bellyache of AA) is 24-hrs.

How can LAX FIS at TBIT not be open 24 hours ? This is the major west coast international airport. With planes coming in at all hours from Asia it seems silly for the FIS to be closed. This seems to be an issue with budgets at Homeland security, one would think customs is funded by revenue from fees paid by users.

NZ321 · Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:15 pm

With Garuda's financial woes it'll be a while before we see them back in the USA

aaway · Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:53 pm

jfk777 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
No sir TBIT is not and has never been a 24-hrs FIS.

Sure there might be a skeleton crew that stays overnight dealing with things like detained folks and such, but for landing rights no service is authorized outside normal FIS hours. There can be delayed flights, but no airline will get a schedule approved outside the core FIS hours.
Also things like TSA close up at night at TBIT and don't reopen till 0600.

To my knowledge there is only a single 24-hr FIS facility in the US - JFK T4, not even MIA(much to bellyache of AA) is 24-hrs.

How can LAX FIS at TBIT not be open 24 hours? This is the major west coast international airport. With planes coming in at all hours from Asia it seems silly for the FIS to be closed. This seems to be an issue with budgets at Homeland security, one would think customs is funded by revenue from fees paid by users.

Some international carriers have expressed an interest in scheduling flights during what are now off-hours. CBP thus far refuses to budge on the matter. While budgetary / staffing issues are omni-present, I believe there is a LOA (letter of agreement) somewhere that prohibits 24 hour FIS operation at LAX.

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