Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

flymco753 · Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:01 pm

ANA787 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
So far the only thing DL has done to respond to AS adding PDX is change the 739 back to an A321, ATL will have 2 daily 321's, PDX 1 daily, and LAX 2 daily. MCO is rumored to be next for 321's or SFO.

DL doesn't have to respond; PDX is simply not that significant a market for them. Historically, DL carries about a third to two-fifths of the traffic between the markets at average fares below those of comparable distances. FWIW, DL did just upgauge the flight to a 757 for the summer, which is a gain of about 20 seats. Doubtful it has anything to do with AS.

Looks like DL just responded to AS: DL is adding another DTW-PDX flight making this market 2x daily starting just 1 day before the new AS PDX-DTW flight. Daytime PDX-DTW flight and morning DTW-PDX flight.

Interesting. DL scan capture the connections, AS will be geared towards O&D. LF's on SEA are a lot better than when the flight first started to SEA in 2014, sometimes adding more efficient options can stimulate a market.

klm617 · Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:41 pm

ANA787 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
So far the only thing DL has done to respond to AS adding PDX is change the 739 back to an A321, ATL will have 2 daily 321's, PDX 1 daily, and LAX 2 daily. MCO is rumored to be next for 321's or SFO.

DL doesn't have to respond; PDX is simply not that significant a market for them. Historically, DL carries about a third to two-fifths of the traffic between the markets at average fares below those of comparable distances. FWIW, DL did just upgauge the flight to a 757 for the summer, which is a gain of about 20 seats. Doubtful it has anything to do with AS.

Looks like DL just responded to AS: DL is adding another DTW-PDX flight making this market 2x daily starting just 1 day before the new AS PDX-DTW flight. Daytime PDX-DTW flight and morning DTW-PDX flight.

And this is the crap that really irritates me our hub carrier who everyone says is committed to this market thinks that the Detroit to Portland market doesn't warrant a year round nonstop so now a rival carrier comes in and gives the market the attention it deserves and some how miraculously the Detroit Portland market warrants 2 daily Nonstops in the summer so a total of 3 flights a day in the summer now. Now if Delta was as committed to serving the Detroit market this flight at the very least should have been year round ages ago but Delta doesn't really care. That is why it's so important for the WCAA to pursue other options for new service at Detroit because the only way Delta is going to upgrade any routes is if it is greeted with some healthy competition. So no Delta is not fully vested in giving the Detroit traveler a better experience they are just worried about competition and maintaining their yields. Alaska is good for Detroit just as Icelandair and Qatar will be if the WCAA would just get the deal done now.

kavok · Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:51 pm

ANA787 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
So far the only thing DL has done to respond to AS adding PDX is change the 739 back to an A321, ATL will have 2 daily 321's, PDX 1 daily, and LAX 2 daily. MCO is rumored to be next for 321's or SFO.

DL doesn't have to respond; PDX is simply not that significant a market for them. Historically, DL carries about a third to two-fifths of the traffic between the markets at average fares below those of comparable distances. FWIW, DL did just upgauge the flight to a 757 for the summer, which is a gain of about 20 seats. Doubtful it has anything to do with AS.

Looks like DL just responded to AS: DL is adding another DTW-PDX flight making this market 2x daily starting just 1 day before the new AS PDX-DTW flight. Daytime PDX-DTW flight and morning DTW-PDX flight.

The daytime PDX-DTW should do really well. There are a number of pax (business in particular) that will refuse to take a red-eye flight. Being able to fly direct will pick up passengers that are currently connecting in other airports to get to DTW (even if the DL ticket price is higher).

klm617 · Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:31 pm

kavok wrote:
ANA787 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

DL doesn't have to respond; PDX is simply not that significant a market for them. Historically, DL carries about a third to two-fifths of the traffic between the markets at average fares below those of comparable distances. FWIW, DL did just upgauge the flight to a 757 for the summer, which is a gain of about 20 seats. Doubtful it has anything to do with AS.

Looks like DL just responded to AS: DL is adding another DTW-PDX flight making this market 2x daily starting just 1 day before the new AS PDX-DTW flight. Daytime PDX-DTW flight and morning DTW-PDX flight.

The daytime PDX-DTW should do really well. There are a number of pax (business in particular) that will refuse to take a red-eye flight. Being able to fly direct will pick up passengers that are currently connecting in other airports to get to DTW (even if the DL ticket price is higher).

But keep in mind that if AS drops DTW-PDX we are right back to where we were so those business types that won't book a red eye will be back to connecting over another airport if AS drops DTW-PDX that is why it's important to support Alaska's initiative to add the Detroit market and screw Delta for no batting an eye until they were challenged.

flymco753 · Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:15 am

DTW-SFO on UA is a 739 in July, the route must be showing impressive numbers to go from a 319 to a 739.

cvgComair · Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:18 am

flymco753 wrote:
DTW-SFO on UA is a 739 in July, the route must be showing impressive numbers to go from a 319 to a 739.

I noticed that UA is upgauging SFO-CVG as well during the summer, CVG sees the A320/737 in June/July/August. It is beyond me why DL has not responded in either market. Especially in DTW, where they have a majority share in the market, I would think they would try to push them out on price. DL has far less leverage at CVG with Frontier also on the route daily, and so far their only move at CVG is keeping the route daily year-round. I would be interested to see what % of the UA DTW-SFO passengers are going to SFO, or are just connecting in SFO. That could also explain the impressive numbers UA is seeing to upgauge the route.

So much for those predictions UA would quietly drop both routes! There were some rumors that UA was looking at CVG-LAX, I wonder if UA would make a LAX-DTW/CVG announcement to further get at DL. I am sure that move would make DL angry with LAX/CVG/DTW all being hubs, especially with the recents jabs DL has made at UA on social media. :-)

flymco753 · Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:25 pm

I think it's going to have to be DL adding ORD-LAX to retaliate in DL markets, DL is P-O'd at AS for PDX so anything can happen. I assume CVG is the same with F9 getting in DL routes like MSP.

dtwpilot225 · Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:02 am

Morning flight is a 737-800 and the evening/red eye flight is the 321. I glad for more competition and I am also glad for delta defending this route
First dtw-sna now an extra pdx next I want to see gdl

flymco753 · Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:07 pm

dtwpilot225 wrote:
Morning flight is a 737-800 and the evening/red eye flight is the 321. I glad for more competition and I am also glad for delta defending this route
First dtw-sna now an extra pdx next I want to see gdl

I think AM will do GDL in 2018, they wouldn't put it on DL metal.

kavok · Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:52 pm

cvgComair wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
DTW-SFO on UA is a 739 in July, the route must be showing impressive numbers to go from a 319 to a 739.

I noticed that UA is upgauging SFO-CVG as well during the summer, CVG sees the A320/737 in June/July/August. It is beyond me why DL has not responded in either market. Especially in DTW, where they have a majority share in the market, I would think they would try to push them out on price. DL has far less leverage at CVG with Frontier also on the route daily, and so far their only move at CVG is keeping the route daily year-round. I would be interested to see what % of the UA DTW-SFO passengers are going to SFO, or are just connecting in SFO. That could also explain the impressive numbers UA is seeing to upgauge the route.

So much for those predictions UA would quietly drop both routes! There were some rumors that UA was looking at CVG-LAX, I wonder if UA would make a LAX-DTW/CVG announcement to further get at DL. I am sure that move would make DL angry with LAX/CVG/DTW all being hubs, especially with the recents jabs DL has made at UA on social media.

I think prior to UA, DL was printing money hand over fist on the DTW-SFO routing. I think UA has now realized how big a cash cow this route is, and they have no plans whatsoever to give it up (hence the upgauge). I also think DL realizes UA isn't going anywhere, so there is no point in waging a fare war that can't be won.

That all being said, even with a bit of competition, the DTW-SFO market is big enough that even with both UA/DL on it, both airlines are printing money with it. So even though DL is not as well off as when they had it all to themselves, they are still going very, very well on it financially speaking.

flymco753 · Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:03 pm

kavok wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
DTW-SFO on UA is a 739 in July, the route must be showing impressive numbers to go from a 319 to a 739.

I noticed that UA is upgauging SFO-CVG as well during the summer, CVG sees the A320/737 in June/July/August. It is beyond me why DL has not responded in either market. Especially in DTW, where they have a majority share in the market, I would think they would try to push them out on price. DL has far less leverage at CVG with Frontier also on the route daily, and so far their only move at CVG is keeping the route daily year-round. I would be interested to see what % of the UA DTW-SFO passengers are going to SFO, or are just connecting in SFO. That could also explain the impressive numbers UA is seeing to upgauge the route.

So much for those predictions UA would quietly drop both routes! There were some rumors that UA was looking at CVG-LAX, I wonder if UA would make a LAX-DTW/CVG announcement to further get at DL. I am sure that move would make DL angry with LAX/CVG/DTW all being hubs, especially with the recents jabs DL has made at UA on social media.

I think prior to UA, DL was printing money hand over fist on the DTW-SFO routing. I think UA has now realized how big a cash cow this route is, and they have no plans whatsoever to give it up (hence the upgauge). I also think DL realizes UA isn't going anywhere, so there is no point in waging a fare war that can't be won.

That all being said, even with a bit of competition, the DTW-SFO market is big enough that even with both UA/DL on it, both airlines are printing money with it. So even though DL is not as well off as when they had it all to themselves, they are still going very, very well on it financially speaking.

Even with NK doing OAK too. NK has shown too that they can do Bay Area service and make it happen, the flight was originally a 32S and seasonal now it's looking to be year round and a 321S this summer. I hope AS can do the same for PDX.

flymco753 · Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:57 pm

AS is doing double daily SEA in March 11, nearly 3 months earlier than normal. That's welcoming news knowing AS will be up to 3 arrivals and departures regularly. DL can't add more capacity, maybe an additional 739 would be all for the winter months and maintain 7x 757s in the summer. Maybe the AS adventures continue with SEA or VX metal on LAX or SFO.

klm617 · Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:33 pm

I totally understand that it's not feasible so it isn't operated but what makes a WS YYC-YQG-DTW-YYC routing not feasible year round. You would think it would work being that DTW is a skyteam hub with lots of connections to feed this kind of flight.

flymco753 · Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:57 pm

Any chance F9 could do a split between the current RSW flight and rotate that to TPA? It would be 4x weekly TPA and 3x weekly RSW, since TPA only has 2 airlines and is a growing market on the O&D for both ends.

Also, what about additional flights to JAX, PBI and SRQ? Who are the likely suspects?

klm617 · Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:04 pm

From five years ago today. Still waiting patiently.

https://article.wn.com/view/2012/04/20/ ... t_service/

klm617 · Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:07 pm

*DL BOS-JAX SEP 0>0.7 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0

Got to love it a non hub like Boston get's a nonstop to JAX and the second largest hub in their system DTW is still stuck on one daily RJ to JAX speaks volumes really.

cvgComair · Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:22 pm

klm617 wrote:
*DL BOS-JAX SEP 0>0.7 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0

Got to love it a non hub like Boston get's a nonstop to JAX and the second largest hub in their system DTW is still stuck on one daily RJ to JAX speaks volumes really.

Well, BOS is a DL hub (although previously the smallest, this expansion will put BOS over CVG in terms of daily flights), but the low service on DTW-JAX initially shocked me. However, MSP is only 1x/day CRJ-900/A319 depending on the season and does not operate in the Late Fall/Winter/Early Spring. So, DTW actually has pretty good JAX service compared to MSP! My guess is that O&D from the Northern Midwest to Northern Florida is quite low. JAX is not large and does not have large business connections, whereas Boston has a much larger population, so the route makes more sense. DL clearly wants to be the #1 US3 is BOS and it has to grow quite a lot in terms of capacity to match all the passengers AA shuttles through its hubs (which are also the top O&D markets from BOS).

kavok · Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:08 pm

cvgComair wrote:
klm617 wrote:
*DL BOS-JAX SEP 0>0.7 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0

Got to love it a non hub like Boston get's a nonstop to JAX and the second largest hub in their system DTW is still stuck on one daily RJ to JAX speaks volumes really.

Well, BOS is a DL hub (although previously the smallest, this expansion will put BOS over CVG in terms of daily flights), but the low service on DTW-JAX initially shocked me. However, MSP is only 1x/day CRJ-900/A319 depending on the season and does not operate in the Late Fall/Winter/Early Spring. So, DTW actually has pretty good JAX service compared to MSP! My guess is that O&D from the Northern Midwest to Northern Florida is quite low. JAX is not large and does not have large business connections, whereas Boston has a much larger population, so the route makes more sense. DL clearly wants to be the #1 US3 is BOS and it has to grow quite a lot in terms of capacity to match all the passengers AA shuttles through its hubs (which are also the top O&D markets from BOS).

The other thing to keep in mind is that DTW and MSP don't have any competition on the JAX route. For DTW/MSP-JAX, a connection through ATL (yes, I know) is still a better option than anything UA or AA can offer in terms of connecting DTW/MSP to JAX. If you depart from DTW/MSP, where are you going to connect at? UA has no SE hub, so likely ORD or IAD... both are worse options than ATL. AA is a little better with CLT, but ATL probably still wins out.

This is different from BOS where on UA you could connect in IAD/EWR, or AA through CLT/PHL, all of which are no worse options than connecting in ATL. So in Boston, DL has to offer direct flights to be better than the competition. In DTW/MSP, it doesn't have to offer better service because connecting through ATL is still the best option.

flymco753 · Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:25 pm

JAX is underserved from DTW, the lowest travel is around ~200 or so each way. Another airline could easily compete.

kavok · Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:50 pm

flymco753 wrote:
JAX is underserved from DTW, the lowest travel is around ~200 or so each way. Another airline could easily compete.

They could, but would AA or UA seriously consider adding direct service from DTW-JAX? Probably not, as there would be little connectivity on both ends, and DL would surely respond in matching the service. The best AA or UA can do is connect through one of their hubs, which as I described in my previous post, is a less desirable connection than ATL.

flymco753 · Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:03 pm

kavok wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
JAX is underserved from DTW, the lowest travel is around ~200 or so each way. Another airline could easily compete.

They could, but would AA or UA seriously consider adding direct service from DTW-JAX? Probably not, as there would be little connectivity on both ends, and DL would surely respond in matching the service. The best AA or UA can do is connect through one of their hubs, which as I described in my previous post, is a less desirable connection than ATL.

I actually think G4 can do it, call me crazy but G4 into DTW is a matter of time. A lot of people in Detroit utilize G4 services from FNT and TOL. G4 could easily do a few days a week on JAX and SAV while doing other services like MYR, SFB, PIE, and PGD.

flymco753 · Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:16 pm

flymco753 wrote:
kavok wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
JAX is underserved from DTW, the lowest travel is around ~200 or so each way. Another airline could easily compete.

They could, but would AA or UA seriously consider adding direct service from DTW-JAX? Probably not, as there would be little connectivity on both ends, and DL would surely respond in matching the service. The best AA or UA can do is connect through one of their hubs, which as I described in my previous post, is a less desirable connection than ATL.
I actually think G4 can do it, call me crazy but G4 into DTW is a matter of time. A lot of people in Detroit utilize G4 services from FNT and TOL. G4 could easily do a few days a week on JAX and SAV while doing other services like MYR, SFB, PIE, and PGD.

There's several different opportunities here, G4 would be the most obvious, but if NK ever tapped JAX there would be a daily flight no doubt. Either how, I'm on board with the lack of Florida service at DTW, other airlines or even DL could do SRQ, TLH, JAX, and DAB.

klm617 · Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:07 am

kavok wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
klm617 wrote:
*DL BOS-JAX SEP 0>0.7 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0

Got to love it a non hub like Boston get's a nonstop to JAX and the second largest hub in their system DTW is still stuck on one daily RJ to JAX speaks volumes really.

Well, BOS is a DL hub (although previously the smallest, this expansion will put BOS over CVG in terms of daily flights), but the low service on DTW-JAX initially shocked me. However, MSP is only 1x/day CRJ-900/A319 depending on the season and does not operate in the Late Fall/Winter/Early Spring. So, DTW actually has pretty good JAX service compared to MSP! My guess is that O&D from the Northern Midwest to Northern Florida is quite low. JAX is not large and does not have large business connections, whereas Boston has a much larger population, so the route makes more sense. DL clearly wants to be the #1 US3 is BOS and it has to grow quite a lot in terms of capacity to match all the passengers AA shuttles through its hubs (which are also the top O&D markets from BOS).

The other thing to keep in mind is that DTW and MSP don't have any competition on the JAX route. For DTW/MSP-JAX, a connection through ATL (yes, I know) is still a better option than anything UA or AA can offer in terms of connecting DTW/MSP to JAX. If you depart from DTW/MSP, where are you going to connect at? UA has no SE hub, so likely ORD or IAD... both are worse options than ATL. AA is a little better with CLT, but ATL probably still wins out.

This is different from BOS where on UA you could connect in IAD/EWR, or AA through CLT/PHL, all of which are no worse options than connecting in ATL. So in Boston, DL has to offer direct flights to be better than the competition. In DTW/MSP, it doesn't have to offer better service because connecting through ATL is still the best option.

I disagree CLT is a way better option than ATL and as far as MSP goes ORD is also better than a connection in Atlanta. So basically what you're saying is Delta thinks it can screw the loyal Detroit passenger because of lack of options and you can tell me with a straight face you're OK with that. So then this goes back to resting on the shoulders of the WCAA to bring more options into this market something every other major airport in the same class as DTW is able to do. What everyone fails to realize that as along as we just stay standing along the sidelines and doing nothing our changes get less and less due to the fact that with every new nonstop in another market Detroit loses it's importance as far as a connecting point and someone needs to kept Delta honest either hold their feet to the fire or bring in competition and that is the WCAAs job.

blue100 · Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:22 am

klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:
cvgComair wrote:

Well, BOS is a DL hub (although previously the smallest, this expansion will put BOS over CVG in terms of daily flights), but the low service on DTW-JAX initially shocked me. However, MSP is only 1x/day CRJ-900/A319 depending on the season and does not operate in the Late Fall/Winter/Early Spring. So, DTW actually has pretty good JAX service compared to MSP! My guess is that O&D from the Northern Midwest to Northern Florida is quite low. JAX is not large and does not have large business connections, whereas Boston has a much larger population, so the route makes more sense. DL clearly wants to be the #1 US3 is BOS and it has to grow quite a lot in terms of capacity to match all the passengers AA shuttles through its hubs (which are also the top O&D markets from BOS).

The other thing to keep in mind is that DTW and MSP don't have any competition on the JAX route. For DTW/MSP-JAX, a connection through ATL (yes, I know) is still a better option than anything UA or AA can offer in terms of connecting DTW/MSP to JAX. If you depart from DTW/MSP, where are you going to connect at? UA has no SE hub, so likely ORD or IAD... both are worse options than ATL. AA is a little better with CLT, but ATL probably still wins out.

This is different from BOS where on UA you could connect in IAD/EWR, or AA through CLT/PHL, all of which are no worse options than connecting in ATL. So in Boston, DL has to offer direct flights to be better than the competition. In DTW/MSP, it doesn't have to offer better service because connecting through ATL is still the best option.

I disagree CLT is a way better option than ATL and as far as MSP goes ORD is also better than a connection in Atlanta. So basically what you're saying is Delta thinks it can screw the loyal Detroit passenger because of lack of options and you can tell me with a straight face you're OK with that. So then this goes back to resting on the shoulders of the WCAA to bring more options into this market something every other major airport in the same class as DTW is able to do. What everyone fails to realize that as along as we just stay standing along the sidelines and doing nothing our changes get less and less due to the fact that with every new nonstop in another market Detroit loses it's importance as far as a connecting point and someone needs to kept Delta honest either hold their feet to the fire or bring in competition and that is the WCAAs job.

By what measure are they better than ATL? I took a quick look at DTW-CLT-JAX and DTW-ATL-JAX schedules on AA and DL respectively today. AA flies about 7-8 daily flights on both segments. DL has 13 flights on both segments. If you're looking at it from a schedule / options perspective, I don't see how its any better to fly via CLT. Flight times look about the same as well (I think flying through CLT is marginally longer). I live in NYC so I don't often have to fly via hubs to get to where I need to go to but I have flown via ATL before and I had no issues connecting there. I've also flown via ORD before and fail to see how it offers better connecting opportunities. In fact, ORD sees roughly 2-3 flights a day to JAX on AA and UA so I'd imagine this would involve far longer wait times between flights for pax travelling from MSP.

Jshank83 · Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:21 am

cvgComair wrote:
klm617 wrote:
*DL BOS-JAX SEP 0>0.7 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0

Got to love it a non hub like Boston get's a nonstop to JAX and the second largest hub in their system DTW is still stuck on one daily RJ to JAX speaks volumes really.

Well, BOS is a DL hub (although previously the smallest, this expansion will put BOS over CVG in terms of daily flights), but the low service on DTW-JAX initially shocked me. However, MSP is only 1x/day CRJ-900/A319 depending on the season and does not operate in the Late Fall/Winter/Early Spring. So, DTW actually has pretty good JAX service compared to MSP! My guess is that O&D from the Northern Midwest to Northern Florida is quite low. JAX is not large and does not have large business connections, whereas Boston has a much larger population, so the route makes more sense. DL clearly wants to be the #1 US3 is BOS and it has to grow quite a lot in terms of capacity to match all the passengers AA shuttles through its hubs (which are also the top O&D markets from BOS).

I am not really seeing why anyone has an issue with this. BOS-JAX is probably mostly O&D that was previously people having to fly through ATL. BOS has a decent DL presence, so if there is enough O&D for the flight, why wouldn't you add it? I would also guess DTW-JAX is mostly O&D also. If you are in JAX and going to have to have a connection, I would think ATL would be your choice (assuming you are taking DL) because it is the least out of the way to about everywhere and you can get about anywhere from ATL. I don't see the point of adding another JAX-DTW flight if there isn't the O&D demand for it. DTW is way out of the way to go anywhere from JAX unless you are going to Canada. There are plenty of better things to get upset about than BOS-JAX starting before another DTW-JAX flight.

dtwpilot225 · Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:57 am

Detroit what?

flymco753 · Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:07 pm

I really think F9 can add DTW-TPA 4x weekly in the winter months on the A319 and turn it to RSW the rest of the 3 days like it currently does, another ULCC on TPA would be icing to the cake for passengers in Detroit. G4 could do PIE, but something tells me they will never go to DTW.

Going forward with the 321, I actually don't think DL will ever do MCO with it anymore since the 753 provides plenty of seats on the market off summer, the 321 and 757 is obviously too big for DL so they're doing the 739 and M90 to MCO this summer. I would have to guess and say DL will do the 321 on ATL of course, LAX and PDX which was already announced, and quite possibly BOS but that's pretty much it, DL is getting stubborn with putting all 321's in ATL so my predictions from this point on about 321's at DTW is slim.

iFlyDTW · Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:12 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I actually don't think DL will ever do MCO with it anymore since the 753 provides plenty of seats on the market off summer, the 321 and 757 is obviously too big for DL so they're doing the 739 and M90 to MCO this summer.

I have a question, are you obsessed with Detroit to Orlando and vice versa? I mean you seem to comment on it a lot Im just curious why you are so goober about Detroit to Orlando.

flymco753 · Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:17 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I actually don't think DL will ever do MCO with it anymore since the 753 provides plenty of seats on the market off summer, the 321 and 757 is obviously too big for DL so they're doing the 739 and M90 to MCO this summer.
I have a question, are you obsessed with Detroit to Orlando and vice versa? I mean you seem to comment on it a lot Im just curious why you are so goober about Detroit to Orlando.

I don't know? I think that it's an important market to DTW, but if it's only important to myself than I won't post things on this thread anymore.

kavok · Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:06 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
klm617 wrote:
*DL BOS-JAX SEP 0>0.7 OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0

Got to love it a non hub like Boston get's a nonstop to JAX and the second largest hub in their system DTW is still stuck on one daily RJ to JAX speaks volumes really.

Well, BOS is a DL hub (although previously the smallest, this expansion will put BOS over CVG in terms of daily flights), but the low service on DTW-JAX initially shocked me. However, MSP is only 1x/day CRJ-900/A319 depending on the season and does not operate in the Late Fall/Winter/Early Spring. So, DTW actually has pretty good JAX service compared to MSP! My guess is that O&D from the Northern Midwest to Northern Florida is quite low. JAX is not large and does not have large business connections, whereas Boston has a much larger population, so the route makes more sense. DL clearly wants to be the #1 US3 is BOS and it has to grow quite a lot in terms of capacity to match all the passengers AA shuttles through its hubs (which are also the top O&D markets from BOS).

I am not really seeing why anyone has an issue with this. BOS-JAX is probably mostly O&D that was previously people having to fly through ATL. BOS has a decent DL presence, so if there is enough O&D for the flight, why wouldn't you add it? I would also guess DTW-JAX is mostly O&D also. If you are in JAX and going to have to have a connection, I would think ATL would be your choice (assuming you are taking DL) because it is the least out of the way to about everywhere and you can get about anywhere from ATL. I don't see the point of adding another JAX-DTW flight if there isn't the O&D demand for it. DTW is way out of the way to go anywhere from JAX unless you are going to Canada. There are plenty of better things to get upset about than BOS-JAX starting before another DTW-JAX flight.

The issue some of the posters have is that the O-D from DTW to JAX actually IS there to justify better/more frequent service... just like it is in BOS.

The real difference between BOS and DTW is that a currently a BOS-JAX pax could choose to connect in EWR, PHL, DC, CLT, or ATL... and (unless you have a brand allegiance), they are all about equal. So in order to capture a larger share of the market, DL is offering mainline direct between BOS and JAX... which of course makes DL the most desirable option because a direct flight is better than a connection.

In DTW's case, even though DL could offer a direct to JAX, DL chose not to beyond one RJ (which makes some posters mad). But the reason DL chooses not to is because a direct flight is not necessary to be better than the competition on DTW-JAX. There is no good connection point on UA, and ATL is a better connection than CLT for DTW/JAX.

iFlyDTW · Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:17 pm

kavok wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:

Well, BOS is a DL hub (although previously the smallest, this expansion will put BOS over CVG in terms of daily flights), but the low service on DTW-JAX initially shocked me. However, MSP is only 1x/day CRJ-900/A319 depending on the season and does not operate in the Late Fall/Winter/Early Spring. So, DTW actually has pretty good JAX service compared to MSP! My guess is that O&D from the Northern Midwest to Northern Florida is quite low. JAX is not large and does not have large business connections, whereas Boston has a much larger population, so the route makes more sense. DL clearly wants to be the #1 US3 is BOS and it has to grow quite a lot in terms of capacity to match all the passengers AA shuttles through its hubs (which are also the top O&D markets from BOS).

I am not really seeing why anyone has an issue with this. BOS-JAX is probably mostly O&D that was previously people having to fly through ATL. BOS has a decent DL presence, so if there is enough O&D for the flight, why wouldn't you add it? I would also guess DTW-JAX is mostly O&D also. If you are in JAX and going to have to have a connection, I would think ATL would be your choice (assuming you are taking DL) because it is the least out of the way to about everywhere and you can get about anywhere from ATL. I don't see the point of adding another JAX-DTW flight if there isn't the O&D demand for it. DTW is way out of the way to go anywhere from JAX unless you are going to Canada. There are plenty of better things to get upset about than BOS-JAX starting before another DTW-JAX flight.

The issue some of the posters have is that the O-D from DTW to JAX actually IS there to justify better/more frequent service... just like it is in BOS.

The real difference between BOS and DTW is that a currently a BOS-JAX pax could choose to connect in EWR, PHL, DC, CLT, or ATL... and (unless you have a brand allegiance), they are all about equal. So in order to capture a larger share of the market, DL is offering mainline direct between BOS and JAX... which of course makes DL the most desirable option because a direct flight is better than a connection.

In DTW's case, even though DL could offer a direct to JAX, DL chose not to beyond one RJ (which makes some posters mad). But the reason DL chooses not to is because a direct flight is not necessary to be better than the competition on DTW-JAX. There is no good connection point on UA, and ATL is a better connection than CLT for DTW/JAX.

NK could do it if NK decided to enter JAX, G4 could too, but until than there's no reason for Delta to compete against themselves.

ILUVDC10S · Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:34 pm

Who here went to the Mc Namara Raise the Roof event in 2002 ? Remember what Anderson said? I DO ! I will refresh your memory if you want .
Who here watched Michigan's John Conyers raise red flags ! on CSPAN
Who here searched Youtube n this ?

PSU.DTW.SCE · Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:35 pm

Any almost every connection option in the world is more viable from JAX over ATL except for a handful of smaller markets that are hub-exclusive to DTW or MSP.

klm617 · Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:52 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Any almost every connection option in the world is more viable from JAX over ATL except for a handful of smaller markets that are hub-exclusive to DTW or MSP.

Agreed but it still warrants more than one daily RJ in the grand scheme of things. we are talking about 14 to one that's just crazy if a customer choses to fly from JAX to anywhere in the Delta network and want's to avoid ATL it's almost impossible. The return from JAX to DTW provides for zero connections A JAX to Asia passenger for instance is in for a double connect because of no connectivity to the Asia flights at DTW. Where as AA and UA can get you to every major Asian city with one stop. I understand that there may be a small amount of O/D from JAX to Asia but for an airline that touts itself as being global AA and UA have better international connection and more 1 stop options than Delta does in their network due to the everything over ATL concept.

adamh8297 · Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:04 pm

klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Any almost every connection option in the world is more viable from JAX over ATL except for a handful of smaller markets that are hub-exclusive to DTW or MSP.

Agreed but it still warrants more than one daily RJ in the grand scheme of things. we are talking about 14 to one that's just crazy if a customer choses to fly from JAX to anywhere in the Delta network and want's to avoid ATL it's almost impossible. The return from JAX to DTW provides for zero connections A JAX to Asia passenger for instance is in for a double connect because of no connectivity to the Asia flights at DTW. Where as AA and UA can get you to every major Asian city with one stop. I understand that there may be a small amount of O/D from JAX to Asia but for an airline that touts itself as being global AA and UA have better international connection and more 1 stop options than Delta does in their network due to the everything over ATL concept.

DL would prefer a JAX passenger to go to ATL and if they have to double connect in ICN so be it. That's they way its going to be with the imminent DL-KE JV

I'm BOS based - to be honest I could care less about this BOS-JAX add - its already well served by B6 and I'm sure people go through ATL/CLT/. I'm more impressed by DL's additions in BOS-FLL/RSW/PBI. Now if DL bumped those up while having RJ's on DTW then you would have a legitimate concern.

klm617 · Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:59 am

adamh8297 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Any almost every connection option in the world is more viable from JAX over ATL except for a handful of smaller markets that are hub-exclusive to DTW or MSP.

Agreed but it still warrants more than one daily RJ in the grand scheme of things. we are talking about 14 to one that's just crazy if a customer choses to fly from JAX to anywhere in the Delta network and want's to avoid ATL it's almost impossible. The return from JAX to DTW provides for zero connections A JAX to Asia passenger for instance is in for a double connect because of no connectivity to the Asia flights at DTW. Where as AA and UA can get you to every major Asian city with one stop. I understand that there may be a small amount of O/D from JAX to Asia but for an airline that touts itself as being global AA and UA have better international connection and more 1 stop options than Delta does in their network due to the everything over ATL concept.

DL would prefer a JAX passenger to go to ATL and if they have to double connect in ICN so be it. That's they way its going to be with the imminent DL-KE JV

I'm BOS based - to be honest I could care less about this BOS-JAX add - its already well served by B6 and I'm sure people go through ATL/CLT/. I'm more impressed by DL's additions in BOS-FLL/RSW/PBI. Now if DL bumped those up while having RJ's on DTW then you would have a legitimate concern.

So be it SMH So what your saying is if I am JAX based and want to fly to either PVG or PEK I should fly JAX-ATL-ICN-PEK/PVG when if there was a connection available at DTW I could just fly JAX-DTW-PEK/PVG no thank you I flying either AA or UA JAX-ORD/DFW-PVG/PEK much faster and more direct perhaps if Delta thought this way they wouldn't be a distant number 3 in Asia.

klm617 · Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:53 am

For the uninformed about our state educate yourself before you comment negatively about this region. Learn as much about this market as you claim to know about commercial aviation before you post the nonstop negative comments about why this market deserves so little.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/20/maga ... below&_r=1

flymco753 · Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:49 pm

I have a serious question here and I hope I can get some answers. I know we've talked about LOT in the past, it's controversial because some think it'll work and some don't but lets look at the positive stuff. I'm up in Michigan visiting my cousins who are all Polish as well and we've had a discussion about LOT, and they never utilize one-stop flights to WAW and drive to YYZ or ORD because they stick to their brand. My family travels to both WAW and RZE but again from ORD and YYZ. Do you think LOT coming to DTW one day could stimulate a traffic that isn't using the airport? What in the area other than just the population could warrant a flight?

klm617 · Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:56 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I have a serious question here and I hope I can get some answers. I know we've talked about LOT in the past, it's controversial because some think it'll work and some don't but lets look at the positive stuff. I'm up in Michigan visiting my cousins who are all Polish as well and we've had a discussion about LOT, and they never utilize one-stop flights to WAW and drive to YYZ or ORD because they stick to their brand. My family travels to both WAW and RZE but again from ORD and YYZ. Do you think LOT coming to DTW one day could stimulate a traffic that isn't using the airport? What in the area other than just the population could warrant a flight?

Yes it can without a doubt. I think selling people on the idea of a vacation in Poland that wouldn't normally go would help a flight like this. 1X weekly is certainly do able but if people continue to drive to ORD and YYZ it's not going to happen because they already have those passengers so there is little incentive for them to add Detroit.

flymco753 · Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:27 pm

I just calculated the W&B with distance of SkyWest's new E75's, it can make it from DTW-BOI on little restrictions because the distance is relatively similar to SEA-MKE. Not saying it would ever happen, but it makes me wonder if the CS will do DTW-BOI/GEG/BZN.

ILUVDC10S · Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:26 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I just calculated the W&B with distance of SkyWest's new E75's, it can make it from DTW-BOI on little restrictions because the distance is relatively similar to SEA-MKE. Not saying it would ever happen, but it makes me wonder if the CS will do DTW-BOI/GEG/BZN.

Gotta love the W & B issues. As a astute traveler like myself Observing the gate agents figuring that out is amazing.
I got so I could figure it out and compare notes with the gate agents in DTW. Gotta love the SF-3 IF IF you were luck you could take all 34 PAX was rarely the case as the middle seat in back row was never or rarely used as a passenger seat. and then you got the bags and what small cargo they could carry and fuel you are going to have to DBC VOL at least 4-5 PAX sometimes a bit more. I have seen where it was only allowed legally to carry 27 PAX .

flymco753 · Thu May 04, 2017 2:03 pm

In another post, a poster not to be named strikes again at DTW, this time saying that they're surprised nobody has recommended DTW-EZE. DTW-GRU does well, unfortunately it was cut because of the economy, but if the 76W could make it to EZE from DTW it could work with a combination of auto and leisure travelers. I do think EZE could be done by DY if they came because unlike most of Latin America, there's a decent market.

compensateme · Thu May 04, 2017 6:35 pm

flymco753 wrote:
In another post, a poster not to be named strikes again at DTW, this time saying that they're surprised nobody has recommended DTW-EZE. DTW-GRU does well, unfortunately it was cut because of the economy, but if the 76W could make it to EZE from DTW it could work with a combination of auto and leisure travelers. I do think EZE could be done by DY if they came because unlike most of Latin America, there's a decent market.

DL continues to operate DTW/GRU 3x weekly, with the 332.

flymco753 · Thu May 04, 2017 11:52 pm

DL also seems to be rotating A321 N305DN through DTW, it's done turns to MCI, SLC, DCA, TPA, and now IND tonight, it's good to see an A321 making rounds at DTW.

klm617 · Fri May 05, 2017 7:38 pm

Is it possible that the Detroit hub is kept in check to always be just a notch below MSP as far as seats and enplanements so as not to upset the powers that be in the state of Minneapolis where northwest was headquartered for all the promises it has made about keeping a significant presence there as far as their operation goes. If Detroit surpasses MSP in any way it may upset the higher ups in the Minnesota government and viewed as showing lack of commitment to the promises it made when it merged with Northwest..

lavalampluva · Fri May 05, 2017 9:33 pm

If MSP was really putting that much pressure on DL wouldn't you think they would relocate all the international service from DTW to MSP? Compass already is pulling their crew base and mx out of MSP so that should make you happy.

*eyeroll*

klm617 · Fri May 05, 2017 9:55 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
If MSP was really putting that much pressure on DL wouldn't you think they would relocate all the international service from DTW to MSP? Compass already is pulling their crew base and mx out of MSP so that should make you happy.

*eyeroll*

Last I checked MSP has way more international flights than Detroit. Yes but they aren't moving Compass to Detroit are they they are moving them to SEA and SEA is not in direct competition with MSP DTW is so they can justify it .

klm617 · Fri May 05, 2017 11:42 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
If MSP was really putting that much pressure on DL wouldn't you think they would relocate all the international service from DTW to MSP? Compass already is pulling their crew base and mx out of MSP so that should make you happy.

*eyeroll*

As far as moving international routes from DTW to MSP those were all pretty much mainstays from the Northwest era so no they wouldn't move those because the Minnesota powers that be don't have any bone of contention showing favoritism of DTW of MSP as far as expansion there as stated they were all NW routes. As far as those that weren't those were all added right after the merger before Delta cut all the capacity. Remember last year DTW got MUC but MSP got KEF and FCO and when FCO was canceled for this year they got KLM plus more flights to HNL and DTW got reductions in the LHR, AMS and FRA markets and soon will have their Asian capacity trimmed in favor of connections over SEA and ATL

flymco753 · Sat May 06, 2017 12:08 am

N305DN is doing LGA today, is this 321 based at DTW to familiarize airport crews?

flymco753 · Sat May 06, 2017 6:50 pm

N305DN did MBJ today, that's kind of cool to see an A321 doing these runs.

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