dtw2hyd
Posts: 4980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:27 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

I've been saying it forever now but I could see EK getting some 789s alongside the 78X and sending them to DTW.



I find it very disturbing that the airport can pull this route off with the amount of traffic that flows between India and the USA and the amount of people carries between DTW and FLL/BOS to make an EK connection. But I've said this before I think the window of opportunity has been closed for DTW to land an ME3 carrier.
Not at all, actually DTW is the next logical option for ME expansion, whether DL likes it or not because it’s a market that DL can’t serve unless of course DL expands rapidly into DEL, BOM, etc. which they’ll never do. EK is most likely, it’s doable but the 777-300ER is too much plane for that route since another carrier already voids the west Middle East.


With Jet Airways broad cooperation with SkyTeam + VS, ME3 cannot beat SkyTeam. The number of "real" one-stop combinations go up drastically with every Jet Airways India-AMS/CDG/LHR route.
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:08 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


I find it very disturbing that the airport can pull this route off with the amount of traffic that flows between India and the USA and the amount of people carries between DTW and FLL/BOS to make an EK connection. But I've said this before I think the window of opportunity has been closed for DTW to land an ME3 carrier.
Not at all, actually DTW is the next logical option for ME expansion, whether DL likes it or not because it’s a market that DL can’t serve unless of course DL expands rapidly into DEL, BOM, etc. which they’ll never do. EK is most likely, it’s doable but the 777-300ER is too much plane for that route since another carrier already voids the west Middle East.


With Jet Airways broad cooperation with SkyTeam + VS, ME3 cannot beat SkyTeam. The number of "real" one-stop combinations go up drastically with every Jet Airways India-AMS/CDG/LHR route.



Yes but EK can give passengers a better and more economical options. Yes but Jet Airways can not get you to as many one stop options as EK can over DXB.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
BenflysDTW
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:39 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:18 pm

Yes... I forgot to mention that my ME3 pick is Emirates. For Detroit, Etihad will never come. I can see them struggling in the upcoming decade as Emirates expands, and if Dubai World Central opens. (sidenote.) Anyways, the Emirates 787 is an ideal option, at least for starters. I can also see them getting more than 40 787-10s.
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:09 am

Has anyone seen the article about YNG wanting to do DTW on Southern Airways? This would be neat, maybe airlines like Contour or Boutique would follow and recognize EAS routes, I’m pretty sure MKG or FDY doable.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
compensateme
Posts: 2145
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:06 am

flymco753 wrote:
Has anyone seen the article about YNG wanting to do DTW on Southern Airways? This would be neat, maybe airlines like Contour or Boutique would follow and recognize EAS routes, I’m pretty sure MKG or FDY doable.


Waste of taxpayer money; the Youngstown area is less than an hour's drive from CLE and PIT.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1446
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:10 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Has anyone seen the article about YNG wanting to do DTW on Southern Airways? This would be neat, maybe airlines like Contour or Boutique would follow and recognize EAS routes, I’m pretty sure MKG or FDY doable.

FDY?
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:20 pm

flyinryan99 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Has anyone seen the article about YNG wanting to do DTW on Southern Airways? This would be neat, maybe airlines like Contour or Boutique would follow and recognize EAS routes, I’m pretty sure MKG or FDY doable.

FDY?
Findlay, OH it’s the perfect distance for a prop. I didn’t know what Tupelo was until I saw BNA had a flight.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:30 pm

klm617 wrote:
...

Yes but EK can give passengers a better and more economical options. Yes but Jet Airways can not get you to as many one stop options as EK can over DXB.


If you look beyond Emirates one-"our"-stop reasoning.

US-India one-stop combinations
EK 12 US x 10 India = 120
SkyTeam++ 30 US x 4 India = 120

As 9W beefs up its India-Europe network, it will easily outdo ME3.
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1446
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:08 pm

flymco753 wrote:
flyinryan99 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Has anyone seen the article about YNG wanting to do DTW on Southern Airways? This would be neat, maybe airlines like Contour or Boutique would follow and recognize EAS routes, I’m pretty sure MKG or FDY doable.

FDY?
Findlay, OH it’s the perfect distance for a prop. I didn’t know what Tupelo was until I saw BNA had a flight.


I know where FDY - Findlay is.....I was really asking "are you serious"? First off, it's not EAS. Second, would not qualify for EAS. Third, there is no infrastructure. And lastly, really isn't a reason for service from there as there are plenty of options in TOL, CMH, DAY, and DTW close enough within reasonable drive with reasonable access to the airspace system. While there are a few large employers in town, most of their travel is driven through DTW and a lessor extent TOL and of course their corporate fleets. I highly doubt you would see support for 9 seat Caravans to DTW from FDY. You would probably get more support if FDY was able to steal G4 away from TOL....

If Southern were to come to DTW, would be interesting to see where they would settle in - Mac or North Terminal...North has the access to the LFCs and LCCS while Mac has Delta....
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:54 pm

The best fit for DTW isnt the ME3, its TK. DTW is a big generator for traffic to BEY, AMM, and other airports in that region. TK is better suited to serve those destinations.
It is what it is...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:54 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
The best fit for DTW isnt the ME3, its TK. DTW is a big generator for traffic to BEY, AMM, and other airports in that region. TK is better suited to serve those destinations.



No TK is not good for Detroit because if TK comes into Detroit we lose RJ. RJ has been very loyal to this market while TK has snubbed DTW over and over and let them take their business else where. With TK at Detroit there is no net gain it would be a wash and since EK has a different customer base it will not effect RJ in the least.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:55 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
klm617 wrote:
...

Yes but EK can give passengers a better and more economical options. Yes but Jet Airways can not get you to as many one stop options as EK can over DXB.


If you look beyond Emirates one-"our"-stop reasoning.

US-India one-stop combinations
EK 12 US x 10 India = 120
SkyTeam++ 30 US x 4 India = 120

As 9W beefs up its India-Europe network, it will easily outdo ME3.



No price and customer service wise. Plus Skyteam are double connects where as EK connections are one stop.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:49 pm

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
klm617 wrote:
...

Yes but EK can give passengers a better and more economical options. Yes but Jet Airways can not get you to as many one stop options as EK can over DXB.


If you look beyond Emirates one-"our"-stop reasoning.

US-India one-stop combinations
EK 12 US x 10 India = 120
SkyTeam++ 30 US x 4 India = 120

As 9W beefs up its India-Europe network, it will easily outdo ME3.



No price and customer service wise. Plus Skyteam are double connects where as EK connections are one stop.


Nope. SkyTeam 120 combinations are one-stops.
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:55 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

If you look beyond Emirates one-"our"-stop reasoning.

US-India one-stop combinations
EK 12 US x 10 India = 120
SkyTeam++ 30 US x 4 India = 120

As 9W beefs up its India-Europe network, it will easily outdo ME3.



No price and customer service wise. Plus Skyteam are double connects where as EK connections are one stop.


Nope. SkyTeam 120 combinations are one-stops.



Yeah but onlt to 4 cities in India the rest are double connects How many cities does EK serve in India.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:06 pm

klm617 wrote:
Yeah but onlt to 4 cities in India the rest are double connects .

At present it is 4. For every new India-Europe route by ST++, will have one-stop to 34 NA Airports.

klm617 wrote:
How many cities does EK serve in India.

10 I think.12 here

But the likelihood of ST++ starting a new India-Europe route is higher than EK serving 34 North American destinations. EK can never match ST++ in terms of one-stops.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:11 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
The best fit for DTW isnt the ME3, its TK. DTW is a big generator for traffic to BEY, AMM, and other airports in that region. TK is better suited to serve those destinations.



No TK is not good for Detroit because if TK comes into Detroit we lose RJ. RJ has been very loyal to this market while TK has snubbed DTW over and over and let them take their business else where. With TK at Detroit there is no net gain it would be a wash and since EK has a different customer base it will not effect RJ in the least.


RJ is twice weekly and connects in YUL 9 months of the year. TK would no doubt be nonstop and serve way more destinations via IST.
It is what it is...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:20 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Yeah but onlt to 4 cities in India the rest are double connects .

At present it is 4. For every new India-Europe route by ST++, will have one-stop to 34 NA Airports.

klm617 wrote:
How many cities does EK serve in India.

10 I think.12 here

But the likelihood of ST++ starting a new India-Europe route is higher than EK serving 34 North American destinations. EK can never match ST++ in terms of one-stops.

I think klm617 was thinking about connections for Detroit.
Currently, SkyTeam and 9W offer 4, EK offers nil. If Ek opens DTW, it'll be up to 10. If 9W/AF/KL add routes to India (which they almost certainly will), that'll add one 1-stop option apeice.
So while SkyTeam is stronger as a whole, and currently stronger in Detroit to India, Emirates could seize a lead in the latter with one flight.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:06 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
I think klm617 was thinking about connections for Detroit.
Currently, SkyTeam and 9W offer 4, EK offers nil. If Ek opens DTW, it'll be up to 10. If 9W/AF/KL add routes to India (which they almost certainly will), that'll add one 1-stop option apeice.
So while SkyTeam is stronger as a whole, and currently stronger in Detroit to India, Emirates could seize a lead in the latter with one flight.


Actually, ST++ is the only alliance offers one-stop from DTW to 4 Indian cities. None of the ME3 can claim this.

And DTW is the only airport all three DL, KL and AF (even VS in the past). No other airport had this privilege.

With less than 150 PDEW to India, backtrack disadvantage to ME diaspora, and no feeder at DTW, EK can never operate DTW viably.
 
TryToFlySomeday
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:46 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
The best fit for DTW isnt the ME3, its TK. DTW is a big generator for traffic to BEY, AMM, and other airports in that region. TK is better suited to serve those destinations.



No TK is not good for Detroit because if TK comes into Detroit we lose RJ. RJ has been very loyal to this market while TK has snubbed DTW over and over and let them take their business else where. With TK at Detroit there is no net gain it would be a wash and since EK has a different customer base it will not effect RJ in the least.


I see your point klm617 but look at it another way:

RJ may be loyal to DTW, but they can't get people to as much destinations as TK.

TK can get traffic from DTW to TLV, AMM, BEY, KHI, LHE, ISB, DEL, BOM.... so on so forth. So that gets RJ's customer base and EK's customer base covered.
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:58 pm

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
The best fit for DTW isnt the ME3, its TK. DTW is a big generator for traffic to BEY, AMM, and other airports in that region. TK is better suited to serve those destinations.



No TK is not good for Detroit because if TK comes into Detroit we lose RJ. RJ has been very loyal to this market while TK has snubbed DTW over and over and let them take their business else where. With TK at Detroit there is no net gain it would be a wash and since EK has a different customer base it will not effect RJ in the least.


I see your point klm617 but look at it another way:

RJ may be loyal to DTW, but they can't get people to as much destinations as TK.

TK can get traffic from DTW to TLV, AMM, BEY, KHI, LHE, ISB, DEL, BOM.... so on so forth. So that gets RJ's customer base and EK's customer base covered.


As you say TK would kill RJ plus keep EK out so the addition of TK at Detroit yields no net gain so I'd rather have EK and RJ serving Detroit. So between RJ and EK you get better covers plus and additional choice as a customer.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:59 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
I think klm617 was thinking about connections for Detroit.
Currently, SkyTeam and 9W offer 4, EK offers nil. If Ek opens DTW, it'll be up to 10. If 9W/AF/KL add routes to India (which they almost certainly will), that'll add one 1-stop option apeice.
So while SkyTeam is stronger as a whole, and currently stronger in Detroit to India, Emirates could seize a lead in the latter with one flight.


Actually, ST++ is the only alliance offers one-stop from DTW to 4 Indian cities. None of the ME3 can claim this.

And DTW is the only airport all three DL, KL and AF (even VS in the past). No other airport had this privilege.

With less than 150 PDEW to India, backtrack disadvantage to ME diaspora, and no feeder at DTW, EK can never operate DTW viably.



KLM does not serve Detroit another bone of contention with me as it is allowed to serve all the major Delta hubs EXCEPT Detroit. But that 150 doesn't include those who drive to ORD or YYZ. I pretty sure 150 is artificially low.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:19 am

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
I think klm617 was thinking about connections for Detroit.
Currently, SkyTeam and 9W offer 4, EK offers nil. If Ek opens DTW, it'll be up to 10. If 9W/AF/KL add routes to India (which they almost certainly will), that'll add one 1-stop option apeice.
So while SkyTeam is stronger as a whole, and currently stronger in Detroit to India, Emirates could seize a lead in the latter with one flight.


Actually, ST++ is the only alliance offers one-stop from DTW to 4 Indian cities. None of the ME3 can claim this.

And DTW is the only airport all three DL, KL and AF (even VS in the past). No other airport had this privilege.

With less than 150 PDEW to India, backtrack disadvantage to ME diaspora, and no feeder at DTW, EK can never operate DTW viably.



KLM does not serve Detroit another bone of contention with me as it is allowed to serve all the major Delta hubs EXCEPT Detroit. But that 150 doesn't include those who drive to ORD or YYZ. I pretty sure 150 is artificially low.
Same with WAW, it's artificially low due to the abundance of flights from YYZ and ORD.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:38 am

klm617 wrote:
KLM does not serve Detroit another bone of contention with me as it is allowed to serve all the major Delta hubs EXCEPT Detroit. But that 150 doesn't include those who drive to ORD or YYZ. I pretty sure 150 is artificially low.


Thanks for correcting me. I meant to say DTW is the only airport with service to AMS, CDG, and LHR.

I am with you on PDEW may be low, particularly with so many Indians families moved to Metro in recent years, but like any other aviation stat, no single data point is completely valid, we have to live with whatever is available.
 
compensateme
Posts: 2145
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:21 am

<sigh> As I've written many times, if a flight's timed and priced right, people won't carry whether they backtrack. ATL, for example, is DL's largest connection point from points northeast to posts west, even though people are traveling a few hundred miles out of their way. You really think that's going to be a problem from DTW-India via DOH/DXB vs. AMS/CDG/FRA? You're talking about 8000+ miles -- if the flight's priced right, nobody's going to care.

In the last two years, I've flown QR from both BOS & ORD, and it was obvious that the majority of the passengers were headed to India. If they operated from DTW, they'd grab a fair portion of the market to India and the Middle East, regardless of the backtracking. And yes, any DOT data on ethic travel from DTW is going to be distorted, since local ethic travel agencies heavily promote ORD/YYZ. That said, I doubt there's enough premium traffic to make the flight work on a daily basis.
Last edited by compensateme on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:27 am

compensateme wrote:
<sigh> As I've written many times, if a flight's timed and priced right, people won't carry whether they backtrack. ATL, for example, is DL's largest connection point from points northeast to posts west, even though people are traveling a few hundred miles out of their way. You really think that's going to be a problem from DTW-India via DOH/DXB vs. AMS/CDG/FRA? You're talking about 8000+ miles -- if the flight's priced right, nobody's going to care.

In the last two years, I've flown QR from both BOS & ORD, and it was obvious that the majority of the passengers were headed to India. If they operated from DTW, they'd grab a fair portion of the market to India and the Middle East, regardless of the backtracking. And yes, any DOT data on ethic travel from DTW is going to be distorted, since local ethic travel agencies heavily promote ORD/YYZ. That said, I still have doubts there's enough premium traffic to make the flights work.



But any flight to India that's not on the ME3 is over priced that's why Delta want's the ME3 out of the way they want to sell their $2500 RT tickets to India.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:30 am

I found something pretty interesting. I was looking at DTW-MUC round trips and the price was $1800 from Detroit to Muunich but when I did the flight in the opposite direction from MUC to DTW on the same days it was only $736. What is the reason for such a difference in prices is Delta unfairly gouging US originating passenger verse those who originate in Europe.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:31 am

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Actually, ST++ is the only alliance offers one-stop from DTW to 4 Indian cities. None of the ME3 can claim this.

And DTW is the only airport all three DL, KL and AF (even VS in the past). No other airport had this privilege.

With less than 150 PDEW to India, backtrack disadvantage to ME diaspora, and no feeder at DTW, EK can never operate DTW viably.



KLM does not serve Detroit another bone of contention with me as it is allowed to serve all the major Delta hubs EXCEPT Detroit. But that 150 doesn't include those who drive to ORD or YYZ. I pretty sure 150 is artificially low.
Same with WAW, it's artificially low due to the abundance of flights from YYZ and ORD.



I really think the biggest reason LOT doesn't serve Detroit is because of Lufthansa.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25167
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:36 am

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


KLM does not serve Detroit another bone of contention with me as it is allowed to serve all the major Delta hubs EXCEPT Detroit. But that 150 doesn't include those who drive to ORD or YYZ. I pretty sure 150 is artificially low.
Same with WAW, it's artificially low due to the abundance of flights from YYZ and ORD.



I really think the biggest reason LOT doesn't serve Detroit is because of Lufthansa.


Or because there's absolutely zero market.

But sure, let's go with Lufthansa.
a.
 
jubguy3
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:18 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:38 am

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
I think klm617 was thinking about connections for Detroit.
Currently, SkyTeam and 9W offer 4, EK offers nil. If Ek opens DTW, it'll be up to 10. If 9W/AF/KL add routes to India (which they almost certainly will), that'll add one 1-stop option apeice.
So while SkyTeam is stronger as a whole, and currently stronger in Detroit to India, Emirates could seize a lead in the latter with one flight.


Actually, ST++ is the only alliance offers one-stop from DTW to 4 Indian cities. None of the ME3 can claim this.

And DTW is the only airport all three DL, KL and AF (even VS in the past). No other airport had this privilege.

With less than 150 PDEW to India, backtrack disadvantage to ME diaspora, and no feeder at DTW, EK can never operate DTW viably.



KLM does not serve Detroit another bone of contention with me as it is allowed to serve all the major Delta hubs EXCEPT Detroit. But that 150 doesn't include those who drive to ORD or YYZ. I pretty sure 150 is artificially low.


The joint venture was inherently bound to kill DTW service at some point because Europe originating traffic is not as important as pushing people through AMS onto the rest of Afro-Eurasia. If KLM needs a specific aircraft they will send it to that market, so having DL serve the AMS flights makes more sense. DTW plays a critical role in the KL-DL joint venture as AMS's 5th busiest intercontinental route behind Dubai, Atlanta, JFK, and Toronto. But its inessential for KLM to drive AMS-DTW traffic which is why they are continuing to serve large non-skyteam hub cities and and their largest skyteam hubs while adding specialty cities like Salt Lake City and Minneapolis. In nearly all of these locations KLM service compliments Delta service.
 
compensateme
Posts: 2145
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:40 am

klm617 wrote:
But any flight to India that's not on the ME3 is over priced that's why Delta want's the ME3 out of the way they want to sell their $2500 RT tickets to India.


DL is hardly overpriced; its lowest published fare, which includes travel year-round (and has excellent availability), is roughly $1500 to DEL, BOM or HYD. That's a bargain, given the distance covered. Yes, EK & QR are less from ORD, but the people traveling up front are subsidizing the people in the back -- and that traffic doesn't exist from DTW. Even if QR or EK launch DTW, their lowest fares will be more than those from ORD.

klm617 wrote:
I found something pretty interesting. I was looking at DTW-MUC round trips and the price was $1800 from Detroit to Muunich but when I did the flight in the opposite direction from MUC to DTW on the same days it was only $736. What is the reason for such a difference in prices is Delta unfairly gouging US originating passenger verse those who originate in Europe.


Fares are significantly less from Europe POS than USA POS - been this way ever since I can remember. It's not a DL thing. It's not a DTW thing.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:53 am

With WS announcing a JV with DL, I suspect we’ll be seeing DTW-YYC on a 737-700 and a seasonal DTW-YVR on a 737-800. Maybe, eventually, they’ll do Encore service to YYZ and YHZ. Could WS get creative and do Encore service from YQM or YWG-DTW? For connection purposes obviously. What are your thoughts other than YYC and YVR?
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:52 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Same with WAW, it's artificially low due to the abundance of flights from YYZ and ORD.



I really think the biggest reason LOT doesn't serve Detroit is because of Lufthansa.


Or because there's absolutely zero market.

But sure, let's go with Lufthansa.


The Detroit area has on of the largest consecrations of Pols in the Squinted States so yes there is a market but since LO and LH are in the same alliance LH doesn't want to lose these customers in the Detroit area so they carry them over FRA rather than having LOT fly a nonstop to WAW
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:52 pm

klm617 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


I really think the biggest reason LOT doesn't serve Detroit is because of Lufthansa.


Or because there's absolutely zero market.

But sure, let's go with Lufthansa.


The Detroit area has on of the largest consecrations of Pols in the Squinted States so yes there is a market but since LO and LH are in the same alliance LH doesn't want to lose these customers in the Detroit area so they carry them over FRA rather than having LOT fly a nonstop to WAW


Just a friendly piece of advice...don’t develop such strong opinions on issues you don’t know anything about.

DTW-WAW is a very small air travel market. Even if you gave bleed the most generous estimates, you wouldn’t get close to filling an ERJ.

A large number of immigrants doesn’t mean they travel frequently to their homeland.
It is what it is...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:14 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

Or because there's absolutely zero market.

But sure, let's go with Lufthansa.


The Detroit area has on of the largest consecrations of Pols in the Squinted States so yes there is a market but since LO and LH are in the same alliance LH doesn't want to lose these customers in the Detroit area so they carry them over FRA rather than having LOT fly a nonstop to WAW


Just a friendly piece of advice...don’t develop such strong opinions on issues you don’t know anything about.

DTW-WAW is a very small air travel market. Even if you gave bleed the most generous estimates, you wouldn’t get close to filling an ERJ.

A large number of immigrants doesn’t mean they travel frequently to their homeland.


Likewise LAXdude I am greatly entrenched with the Polish population here in the Detroit area so I know what I am talking about. There is huge bleed from the Detroit area to YYZ and ORD because fares are outrageous out of Detroit and most poles who travel back an forth want a nonstop because their lack of command of the English language makes them fearful of having to make a connection at a large international airport so they chose the drove for cheaper fares and convenience. I had a friend who made a living out of driving people back and forth to YYZ for these reasons so I KNOW WHAT I'm talking about.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:59 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

The Detroit area has on of the largest consecrations of Pols in the Squinted States so yes there is a market but since LO and LH are in the same alliance LH doesn't want to lose these customers in the Detroit area so they carry them over FRA rather than having LOT fly a nonstop to WAW


Just a friendly piece of advice...don’t develop such strong opinions on issues you don’t know anything about.

DTW-WAW is a very small air travel market. Even if you gave bleed the most generous estimates, you wouldn’t get close to filling an ERJ.

A large number of immigrants doesn’t mean they travel frequently to their homeland.


Likewise LAXdude I am greatly entrenched with the Polish population here in the Detroit area so I know what I am talking about. There is huge bleed from the Detroit area to YYZ and ORD because fares are outrageous out of Detroit and most poles who travel back an forth want a nonstop because their lack of command of the English language makes them fearful of having to make a connection at a large international airport so they chose the drove for cheaper fares and convenience. I had a friend who made a living out of driving people back and forth to YYZ for these reasons so I KNOW WHAT I'm talking about.


No, you dont. There is so much your missing here. Ill add links below as back up. Buckle up because youre going to get a lot of data.

1) Metro Detroit actually has few Polish Immigrants. The entire Detroit/Ann Arbor CSA has about 10k Polish immigrants. Chicago has about 140k Polish Immigrants. NYC has about 120k Polish Immigrants.
Hartford/Springfield has about 16k Polish Immigrants. What Detroit has a lot of is people of Polish decent. These numbers have about a 5% margin or error.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/program ... litan-area

2) Detroit gets few Polish Immigrants. See the numbers below for the immigrants from Poland by Metro area for the last three years. By the way, these numbers are NOT negotiable. They are the official count from DHS. Im listing all the Metro areas that got more Polish Immigrants than Detroit in each year:

Immigrants from Poland in 2016:
Chicago: 2296
NYC: 2207
Hartford: 339
Philadelphia: 119
Los Angeles: 118
Detroit: 108

Immigrants from Poland in 2015:
Chicago: 1773
NYC: 1334
Philadelphia: 135
Los Angeles: 110
Miami: 104
Seattle: 91
Houston: 75
Boston: 68
Washington DC: 67
Detroit: 65

Immigrants from Poland in 2014:
NYC: 1841
Chicago: 1645
Philadelphia: 137
Los Angeles: 129
Miami: 109
Detroit: 97

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2014
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2015
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2016

3) Just because you know a guy that did something doesnt amount to anything. Even IF Detroit had a large amount of bleed to Chicago and Toronto to fly to WAW (which it doesnt), you dont get to go from 15 PDEW (which is what the market is around right now) to enough to fill a plane profitably.

4) Even IF (which again isnt the case) Detroit had large numbers of people driving to Toronto or Chicago to fly to Poland, that would make them the low yielding garbage fare crowd which NO airline would care even slightly about.

5) Detroit's immigrants OVERWHELMINGLY come one region: the Middle East. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Yemen being the biggest. The next two contributors are Bangladesh and Mexico. Detroit biggest European contributor is Albania. Unlike the Polish descendants in Detroit, they actually do travel to their homeland regularly.

6) You guys really need to understand bleed. You dont get to make up numbers to make your argument. Ive NEVER seen you post one ounce of data to support your cause.

Look man, I work in this industry and have access to this data. Jetlanta and MAH do too. Weve been on this forum for over 10 years and have been in this industry longer than that. We know what were talking about.
It is what it is...
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:51 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Just a friendly piece of advice...don’t develop such strong opinions on issues you don’t know anything about.

DTW-WAW is a very small air travel market. Even if you gave bleed the most generous estimates, you wouldn’t get close to filling an ERJ.

A large number of immigrants doesn’t mean they travel frequently to their homeland.


Likewise LAXdude I am greatly entrenched with the Polish population here in the Detroit area so I know what I am talking about. There is huge bleed from the Detroit area to YYZ and ORD because fares are outrageous out of Detroit and most poles who travel back an forth want a nonstop because their lack of command of the English language makes them fearful of having to make a connection at a large international airport so they chose the drove for cheaper fares and convenience. I had a friend who made a living out of driving people back and forth to YYZ for these reasons so I KNOW WHAT I'm talking about.


No, you dont. There is so much your missing here. Ill add links below as back up. Buckle up because youre going to get a lot of data.

1) Metro Detroit actually has few Polish Immigrants. The entire Detroit/Ann Arbor CSA has about 10k Polish immigrants. Chicago has about 140k Polish Immigrants. NYC has about 120k Polish Immigrants.
Hartford/Springfield has about 16k Polish Immigrants. What Detroit has a lot of is people of Polish decent. These numbers have about a 5% margin or error.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/program ... litan-area

2) Detroit gets few Polish Immigrants. See the numbers below for the immigrants from Poland by Metro area for the last three years. By the way, these numbers are NOT negotiable. They are the official count from DHS. Im listing all the Metro areas that got more Polish Immigrants than Detroit in each year:

Immigrants from Poland in 2016:
Chicago: 2296
NYC: 2207
Hartford: 339
Philadelphia: 119
Los Angeles: 118
Detroit: 108

Immigrants from Poland in 2015:
Chicago: 1773
NYC: 1334
Philadelphia: 135
Los Angeles: 110
Miami: 104
Seattle: 91
Houston: 75
Boston: 68
Washington DC: 67
Detroit: 65

Immigrants from Poland in 2014:
NYC: 1841
Chicago: 1645
Philadelphia: 137
Los Angeles: 129
Miami: 109
Detroit: 97

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2014
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2015
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2016

3) Just because you know a guy that did something doesnt amount to anything. Even IF Detroit had a large amount of bleed to Chicago and Toronto to fly to WAW (which it doesnt), you dont get to go from 15 PDEW (which is what the market is around right now) to enough to fill a plane profitably.

4) Even IF (which again isnt the case) Detroit had large numbers of people driving to Toronto or Chicago to fly to Poland, that would make them the low yielding garbage fare crowd which NO airline would care even slightly about.

5) Detroit's immigrants OVERWHELMINGLY come one region: the Middle East. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Yemen being the biggest. The next two contributors are Bangladesh and Mexico. Detroit biggest European contributor is Albania. Unlike the Polish descendants in Detroit, they actually do travel to their homeland regularly.

6) You guys really need to understand bleed. You dont get to make up numbers to make your argument. Ive NEVER seen you post one ounce of data to support your cause.

Look man, I work in this industry and have access to this data. Jetlanta and MAH do too. Weve been on this forum for over 10 years and have been in this industry longer than that. We know what were talking about.
While WAW may not be enough, if you add up all of the rest of the Polish markets you're halfway there, which isn't bad. I'm a half ethnic Pole myself, my grandparents in the Detroit Area are 100% ethnic Pole. Detroit centered Poles are less likely to visit Poland, that's why in most cases the point of travel is stronger on the Poland side, the Poles in Detroit are less likely to visit home than Poles visiting Detroit, so in terms, one way is stronger than the other, in this case Detroit struggles on the US point of sale, but I will say most families that I talk to do travel to Chicago and Toronto for the convenience of nonstop flights.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:57 pm

flymco753 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Likewise LAXdude I am greatly entrenched with the Polish population here in the Detroit area so I know what I am talking about. There is huge bleed from the Detroit area to YYZ and ORD because fares are outrageous out of Detroit and most poles who travel back an forth want a nonstop because their lack of command of the English language makes them fearful of having to make a connection at a large international airport so they chose the drove for cheaper fares and convenience. I had a friend who made a living out of driving people back and forth to YYZ for these reasons so I KNOW WHAT I'm talking about.


No, you dont. There is so much your missing here. Ill add links below as back up. Buckle up because youre going to get a lot of data.

1) Metro Detroit actually has few Polish Immigrants. The entire Detroit/Ann Arbor CSA has about 10k Polish immigrants. Chicago has about 140k Polish Immigrants. NYC has about 120k Polish Immigrants.
Hartford/Springfield has about 16k Polish Immigrants. What Detroit has a lot of is people of Polish decent. These numbers have about a 5% margin or error.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/program ... litan-area

2) Detroit gets few Polish Immigrants. See the numbers below for the immigrants from Poland by Metro area for the last three years. By the way, these numbers are NOT negotiable. They are the official count from DHS. Im listing all the Metro areas that got more Polish Immigrants than Detroit in each year:

Immigrants from Poland in 2016:
Chicago: 2296
NYC: 2207
Hartford: 339
Philadelphia: 119
Los Angeles: 118
Detroit: 108

Immigrants from Poland in 2015:
Chicago: 1773
NYC: 1334
Philadelphia: 135
Los Angeles: 110
Miami: 104
Seattle: 91
Houston: 75
Boston: 68
Washington DC: 67
Detroit: 65

Immigrants from Poland in 2014:
NYC: 1841
Chicago: 1645
Philadelphia: 137
Los Angeles: 129
Miami: 109
Detroit: 97

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2014
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2015
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2016

3) Just because you know a guy that did something doesnt amount to anything. Even IF Detroit had a large amount of bleed to Chicago and Toronto to fly to WAW (which it doesnt), you dont get to go from 15 PDEW (which is what the market is around right now) to enough to fill a plane profitably.

4) Even IF (which again isnt the case) Detroit had large numbers of people driving to Toronto or Chicago to fly to Poland, that would make them the low yielding garbage fare crowd which NO airline would care even slightly about.

5) Detroit's immigrants OVERWHELMINGLY come one region: the Middle East. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Yemen being the biggest. The next two contributors are Bangladesh and Mexico. Detroit biggest European contributor is Albania. Unlike the Polish descendants in Detroit, they actually do travel to their homeland regularly.

6) You guys really need to understand bleed. You dont get to make up numbers to make your argument. Ive NEVER seen you post one ounce of data to support your cause.

Look man, I work in this industry and have access to this data. Jetlanta and MAH do too. Weve been on this forum for over 10 years and have been in this industry longer than that. We know what were talking about.
While WAW may not be enough, if you add up all of the rest of the Polish markets you're halfway there, which isn't bad. I'm a half ethnic Pole myself, my grandparents in the Detroit Area are 100% ethnic Pole. Detroit centered Poles are less likely to visit Poland, that's why in most cases the point of travel is stronger on the Poland side, the Poles in Detroit are less likely to visit home than Poles visiting Detroit, so in terms, one way is stronger than the other, in this case Detroit struggles on the US point of sale, but I will say most families that I talk to do travel to Chicago and Toronto for the convenience of nonstop flights.


But thats just it, you wouldnt be anywhere near halfway there. All the rest of the Polish markets still wouldnt come close to making a LO flight viable. The Poland-US market is so overwhelmingly skewed to ORD and NYC.

Im not saying people dont drive from Detroit to other places to fly nonstop flights, but that market segment still wouldnt be near enough to make any flight viable.
Last edited by LAXdude1023 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is what it is...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:58 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
...
Look man, I work in this industry and have access to this data. Jetlanta and MAH do too. Weve been on this forum for over 10 years and have been in this industry longer than that. We know what were talking about.


I know every time this topic comes up, you post 3-4 years immigration data to prove no one immigrates to Detroit. What about the Polish immigrated to Detroit since immigration started. What about transplants.

http://www.ameredia.com/resources/demog ... olish.html
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:01 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
...
Look man, I work in this industry and have access to this data. Jetlanta and MAH do too. Weve been on this forum for over 10 years and have been in this industry longer than that. We know what were talking about.


I know every time this topic comes up, you post 3-4 years immigration data to prove no one immigrates to Detroit. What about the Polish immigrated to Detroit since immigration started. What about transplants.

http://www.ameredia.com/resources/demog ... olish.html


That isnt remotely what I did. Data speaks for itself.

The link you posted is POLISH AMERICANS, not Polish Immigrants. Where did I say Detroit didnt have a large community of Polish descendants? What they dont have is a large number of Polish immigrants.

Just because you dont like the data, dont shoot the messenger. Its indisputable. I did take into consideration transplants. Thats were the 10k figure comes from. Total number of Polish Immigrants in the Detroit area.

As for how many came since immigration started, thats not remotely relevant since so many of them are dead. What matters is whats there now.
It is what it is...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:06 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Just a friendly piece of advice...don’t develop such strong opinions on issues you don’t know anything about.

DTW-WAW is a very small air travel market. Even if you gave bleed the most generous estimates, you wouldn’t get close to filling an ERJ.

A large number of immigrants doesn’t mean they travel frequently to their homeland.


Likewise LAXdude I am greatly entrenched with the Polish population here in the Detroit area so I know what I am talking about. There is huge bleed from the Detroit area to YYZ and ORD because fares are outrageous out of Detroit and most poles who travel back an forth want a nonstop because their lack of command of the English language makes them fearful of having to make a connection at a large international airport so they chose the drove for cheaper fares and convenience. I had a friend who made a living out of driving people back and forth to YYZ for these reasons so I KNOW WHAT I'm talking about.


No, you dont. There is so much your missing here. Ill add links below as back up. Buckle up because youre going to get a lot of data.

1) Metro Detroit actually has few Polish Immigrants. The entire Detroit/Ann Arbor CSA has about 10k Polish immigrants. Chicago has about 140k Polish Immigrants. NYC has about 120k Polish Immigrants.
Hartford/Springfield has about 16k Polish Immigrants. What Detroit has a lot of is people of Polish decent. These numbers have about a 5% margin or error.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/program ... litan-area

2) Detroit gets few Polish Immigrants. See the numbers below for the immigrants from Poland by Metro area for the last three years. By the way, these numbers are NOT negotiable. They are the official count from DHS. Im listing all the Metro areas that got more Polish Immigrants than Detroit in each year:

Immigrants from Poland in 2016:
Chicago: 2296
NYC: 2207
Hartford: 339
Philadelphia: 119
Los Angeles: 118
Detroit: 108

Immigrants from Poland in 2015:
Chicago: 1773
NYC: 1334
Philadelphia: 135
Los Angeles: 110
Miami: 104
Seattle: 91
Houston: 75
Boston: 68
Washington DC: 67
Detroit: 65

Immigrants from Poland in 2014:
NYC: 1841
Chicago: 1645
Philadelphia: 137
Los Angeles: 129
Miami: 109
Detroit: 97

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2014
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2015
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2016

3) Just because you know a guy that did something doesnt amount to anything. Even IF Detroit had a large amount of bleed to Chicago and Toronto to fly to WAW (which it doesnt), you dont get to go from 15 PDEW (which is what the market is around right now) to enough to fill a plane profitably.

4) Even IF (which again isnt the case) Detroit had large numbers of people driving to Toronto or Chicago to fly to Poland, that would make them the low yielding garbage fare crowd which NO airline would care even slightly about.

5) Detroit's immigrants OVERWHELMINGLY come one region: the Middle East. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Yemen being the biggest. The next two contributors are Bangladesh and Mexico. Detroit biggest European contributor is Albania. Unlike the Polish descendants in Detroit, they actually do travel to their homeland regularly.

6) You guys really need to understand bleed. You dont get to make up numbers to make your argument. Ive NEVER seen you post one ounce of data to support your cause.

Look man, I work in this industry and have access to this data. Jetlanta and MAH do too. Weve been on this forum for over 10 years and have been in this industry longer than that. We know what were talking about.



You just have data from the last 3 years what about the 40 before that. I suggest you crunch the numbers for at least the last 20 years to get some effective data there 3 years is nothing. Have you even been to this area to understand the demographics or are you just spiting out numbers that the computer gives you. I live here and I know how Polish this area is.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:07 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Likewise LAXdude I am greatly entrenched with the Polish population here in the Detroit area so I know what I am talking about. There is huge bleed from the Detroit area to YYZ and ORD because fares are outrageous out of Detroit and most poles who travel back an forth want a nonstop because their lack of command of the English language makes them fearful of having to make a connection at a large international airport so they chose the drove for cheaper fares and convenience. I had a friend who made a living out of driving people back and forth to YYZ for these reasons so I KNOW WHAT I'm talking about.


No, you dont. There is so much your missing here. Ill add links below as back up. Buckle up because youre going to get a lot of data.

1) Metro Detroit actually has few Polish Immigrants. The entire Detroit/Ann Arbor CSA has about 10k Polish immigrants. Chicago has about 140k Polish Immigrants. NYC has about 120k Polish Immigrants.
Hartford/Springfield has about 16k Polish Immigrants. What Detroit has a lot of is people of Polish decent. These numbers have about a 5% margin or error.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/program ... litan-area

2) Detroit gets few Polish Immigrants. See the numbers below for the immigrants from Poland by Metro area for the last three years. By the way, these numbers are NOT negotiable. They are the official count from DHS. Im listing all the Metro areas that got more Polish Immigrants than Detroit in each year:

Immigrants from Poland in 2016:
Chicago: 2296
NYC: 2207
Hartford: 339
Philadelphia: 119
Los Angeles: 118
Detroit: 108

Immigrants from Poland in 2015:
Chicago: 1773
NYC: 1334
Philadelphia: 135
Los Angeles: 110
Miami: 104
Seattle: 91
Houston: 75
Boston: 68
Washington DC: 67
Detroit: 65

Immigrants from Poland in 2014:
NYC: 1841
Chicago: 1645
Philadelphia: 137
Los Angeles: 129
Miami: 109
Detroit: 97

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2014
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2015
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2016

3) Just because you know a guy that did something doesnt amount to anything. Even IF Detroit had a large amount of bleed to Chicago and Toronto to fly to WAW (which it doesnt), you dont get to go from 15 PDEW (which is what the market is around right now) to enough to fill a plane profitably.

4) Even IF (which again isnt the case) Detroit had large numbers of people driving to Toronto or Chicago to fly to Poland, that would make them the low yielding garbage fare crowd which NO airline would care even slightly about.

5) Detroit's immigrants OVERWHELMINGLY come one region: the Middle East. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Yemen being the biggest. The next two contributors are Bangladesh and Mexico. Detroit biggest European contributor is Albania. Unlike the Polish descendants in Detroit, they actually do travel to their homeland regularly.

6) You guys really need to understand bleed. You dont get to make up numbers to make your argument. Ive NEVER seen you post one ounce of data to support your cause.

Look man, I work in this industry and have access to this data. Jetlanta and MAH do too. Weve been on this forum for over 10 years and have been in this industry longer than that. We know what were talking about.



You just have data from the last 3 years what about the 40 before that. I suggest you crunch the numbers for at least the last 20 years to get some effective data there 3 years is nothing. Have you even been to this area to understand the demographics or are you just spiting out numbers that the computer gives you. I live here and I know how Polish this area is.


So its different from what the data says because you say so?

If you noticed the VERY FIRST link I posted, you would see that you have the total number of Polish Immigrants in the Detroit area: 10,000. Did you skip that part?

And yes, Ive spent ample time in Detroit. I love Detroit. Im Lebanese decent and I have tons of family there.
Last edited by LAXdude1023 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is what it is...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:10 pm

flymco753 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Likewise LAXdude I am greatly entrenched with the Polish population here in the Detroit area so I know what I am talking about. There is huge bleed from the Detroit area to YYZ and ORD because fares are outrageous out of Detroit and most poles who travel back an forth want a nonstop because their lack of command of the English language makes them fearful of having to make a connection at a large international airport so they chose the drove for cheaper fares and convenience. I had a friend who made a living out of driving people back and forth to YYZ for these reasons so I KNOW WHAT I'm talking about.


No, you dont. There is so much your missing here. Ill add links below as back up. Buckle up because youre going to get a lot of data.

1) Metro Detroit actually has few Polish Immigrants. The entire Detroit/Ann Arbor CSA has about 10k Polish immigrants. Chicago has about 140k Polish Immigrants. NYC has about 120k Polish Immigrants.
Hartford/Springfield has about 16k Polish Immigrants. What Detroit has a lot of is people of Polish decent. These numbers have about a 5% margin or error.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/program ... litan-area

2) Detroit gets few Polish Immigrants. See the numbers below for the immigrants from Poland by Metro area for the last three years. By the way, these numbers are NOT negotiable. They are the official count from DHS. Im listing all the Metro areas that got more Polish Immigrants than Detroit in each year:

Immigrants from Poland in 2016:
Chicago: 2296
NYC: 2207
Hartford: 339
Philadelphia: 119
Los Angeles: 118
Detroit: 108

Immigrants from Poland in 2015:
Chicago: 1773
NYC: 1334
Philadelphia: 135
Los Angeles: 110
Miami: 104
Seattle: 91
Houston: 75
Boston: 68
Washington DC: 67
Detroit: 65

Immigrants from Poland in 2014:
NYC: 1841
Chicago: 1645
Philadelphia: 137
Los Angeles: 129
Miami: 109
Detroit: 97

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2014
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2015
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2016

3) Just because you know a guy that did something doesnt amount to anything. Even IF Detroit had a large amount of bleed to Chicago and Toronto to fly to WAW (which it doesnt), you dont get to go from 15 PDEW (which is what the market is around right now) to enough to fill a plane profitably.

4) Even IF (which again isnt the case) Detroit had large numbers of people driving to Toronto or Chicago to fly to Poland, that would make them the low yielding garbage fare crowd which NO airline would care even slightly about.

5) Detroit's immigrants OVERWHELMINGLY come one region: the Middle East. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Yemen being the biggest. The next two contributors are Bangladesh and Mexico. Detroit biggest European contributor is Albania. Unlike the Polish descendants in Detroit, they actually do travel to their homeland regularly.

6) You guys really need to understand bleed. You dont get to make up numbers to make your argument. Ive NEVER seen you post one ounce of data to support your cause.

Look man, I work in this industry and have access to this data. Jetlanta and MAH do too. Weve been on this forum for over 10 years and have been in this industry longer than that. We know what were talking about.
While WAW may not be enough, if you add up all of the rest of the Polish markets you're halfway there, which isn't bad. I'm a half ethnic Pole myself, my grandparents in the Detroit Area are 100% ethnic Pole. Detroit centered Poles are less likely to visit Poland, that's why in most cases the point of travel is stronger on the Poland side, the Poles in Detroit are less likely to visit home than Poles visiting Detroit, so in terms, one way is stronger than the other, in this case Detroit struggles on the US point of sale, but I will say most families that I talk to do travel to Chicago and Toronto for the convenience of nonstop flights.



I concur as not only did I have the friend who drove people to YYZ but I have taken people to Chicago and know others that would rather drive to ORD than to make a connection. This is mostly true with the older generation maybe not so much with the younger ones hence why LH is so busy taking people from DTW-Poland via FRA
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:11 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

No, you dont. There is so much your missing here. Ill add links below as back up. Buckle up because youre going to get a lot of data.

1) Metro Detroit actually has few Polish Immigrants. The entire Detroit/Ann Arbor CSA has about 10k Polish immigrants. Chicago has about 140k Polish Immigrants. NYC has about 120k Polish Immigrants.
Hartford/Springfield has about 16k Polish Immigrants. What Detroit has a lot of is people of Polish decent. These numbers have about a 5% margin or error.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/program ... litan-area

2) Detroit gets few Polish Immigrants. See the numbers below for the immigrants from Poland by Metro area for the last three years. By the way, these numbers are NOT negotiable. They are the official count from DHS. Im listing all the Metro areas that got more Polish Immigrants than Detroit in each year:

Immigrants from Poland in 2016:
Chicago: 2296
NYC: 2207
Hartford: 339
Philadelphia: 119
Los Angeles: 118
Detroit: 108

Immigrants from Poland in 2015:
Chicago: 1773
NYC: 1334
Philadelphia: 135
Los Angeles: 110
Miami: 104
Seattle: 91
Houston: 75
Boston: 68
Washington DC: 67
Detroit: 65

Immigrants from Poland in 2014:
NYC: 1841
Chicago: 1645
Philadelphia: 137
Los Angeles: 129
Miami: 109
Detroit: 97

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2014
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2015
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statist ... rbook/2016

3) Just because you know a guy that did something doesnt amount to anything. Even IF Detroit had a large amount of bleed to Chicago and Toronto to fly to WAW (which it doesnt), you dont get to go from 15 PDEW (which is what the market is around right now) to enough to fill a plane profitably.

4) Even IF (which again isnt the case) Detroit had large numbers of people driving to Toronto or Chicago to fly to Poland, that would make them the low yielding garbage fare crowd which NO airline would care even slightly about.

5) Detroit's immigrants OVERWHELMINGLY come one region: the Middle East. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Yemen being the biggest. The next two contributors are Bangladesh and Mexico. Detroit biggest European contributor is Albania. Unlike the Polish descendants in Detroit, they actually do travel to their homeland regularly.

6) You guys really need to understand bleed. You dont get to make up numbers to make your argument. Ive NEVER seen you post one ounce of data to support your cause.

Look man, I work in this industry and have access to this data. Jetlanta and MAH do too. Weve been on this forum for over 10 years and have been in this industry longer than that. We know what were talking about.
While WAW may not be enough, if you add up all of the rest of the Polish markets you're halfway there, which isn't bad. I'm a half ethnic Pole myself, my grandparents in the Detroit Area are 100% ethnic Pole. Detroit centered Poles are less likely to visit Poland, that's why in most cases the point of travel is stronger on the Poland side, the Poles in Detroit are less likely to visit home than Poles visiting Detroit, so in terms, one way is stronger than the other, in this case Detroit struggles on the US point of sale, but I will say most families that I talk to do travel to Chicago and Toronto for the convenience of nonstop flights.


But thats just it, you wouldnt be anywhere near halfway there. All the rest of the Polish markets still wouldnt come close to making a LO flight viable. The Poland-US market is so overwhelmingly skewed to ORD and NYC.

Im not saying people dont drive from Detroit to other places to fly nonstop flights, but that market segment still wouldnt be near enough to make any flight viable.


Trust me it's more than enough for 2 weekly DTW-Poland flights.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:13 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
While WAW may not be enough, if you add up all of the rest of the Polish markets you're halfway there, which isn't bad. I'm a half ethnic Pole myself, my grandparents in the Detroit Area are 100% ethnic Pole. Detroit centered Poles are less likely to visit Poland, that's why in most cases the point of travel is stronger on the Poland side, the Poles in Detroit are less likely to visit home than Poles visiting Detroit, so in terms, one way is stronger than the other, in this case Detroit struggles on the US point of sale, but I will say most families that I talk to do travel to Chicago and Toronto for the convenience of nonstop flights.


But thats just it, you wouldnt be anywhere near halfway there. All the rest of the Polish markets still wouldnt come close to making a LO flight viable. The Poland-US market is so overwhelmingly skewed to ORD and NYC.

Im not saying people dont drive from Detroit to other places to fly nonstop flights, but that market segment still wouldnt be near enough to make any flight viable.


Trust me it's more than enough for 2 weekly DTW-Poland flights.


TRUST YOU????? Yeah....no. There is not one shred of data based on travel pattern and market segments what would support any service from Detroit to Poland. Your stories dont show anything of substance.

Detroit's Polish foreign born immigrant community is small. You cannot escape that.
Last edited by LAXdude1023 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is what it is...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:14 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
...
Look man, I work in this industry and have access to this data. Jetlanta and MAH do too. Weve been on this forum for over 10 years and have been in this industry longer than that. We know what were talking about.


I know every time this topic comes up, you post 3-4 years immigration data to prove no one immigrates to Detroit. What about the Polish immigrated to Detroit since immigration started. What about transplants.

http://www.ameredia.com/resources/demog ... olish.html


That isnt remotely what I did. Data speaks for itself.

The link you posted is POLISH AMERICANS, not Polish Immigrants. Where did I say Detroit didnt have a large community of Polish descendants? What they dont have is a large number of Polish immigrants.

Just because you dont like the data, dont shoot the messenger. Its indisputable. I did take into consideration transplants. Thats were the 10k figure comes from. Total number of Polish Immigrants in the Detroit area.

As for how many came since immigration started, thats not remotely relevant since so many of them are dead. What matters is whats there now.



FALSE the whole picture matters people who migrated to the Detroit area 20 or 30 years ago are most likely not dead.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:16 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

I know every time this topic comes up, you post 3-4 years immigration data to prove no one immigrates to Detroit. What about the Polish immigrated to Detroit since immigration started. What about transplants.

http://www.ameredia.com/resources/demog ... olish.html


That isnt remotely what I did. Data speaks for itself.

The link you posted is POLISH AMERICANS, not Polish Immigrants. Where did I say Detroit didnt have a large community of Polish descendants? What they dont have is a large number of Polish immigrants.

Just because you dont like the data, dont shoot the messenger. Its indisputable. I did take into consideration transplants. Thats were the 10k figure comes from. Total number of Polish Immigrants in the Detroit area.

As for how many came since immigration started, thats not remotely relevant since so many of them are dead. What matters is whats there now.



FALSE the whole picture matters people who migrated to the Detroit area 20 or 30 years ago are most likely not dead.


Whatever man. I do this for a living. I know which segments of the population are likely to travel.

Detroit's Polish immigrants number about 10,000. Thats the number of foreign born Poles currently living in the Detroit area. Thats not big at all.
Last edited by LAXdude1023 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is what it is...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:17 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

But thats just it, you wouldnt be anywhere near halfway there. All the rest of the Polish markets still wouldnt come close to making a LO flight viable. The Poland-US market is so overwhelmingly skewed to ORD and NYC.

Im not saying people dont drive from Detroit to other places to fly nonstop flights, but that market segment still wouldnt be near enough to make any flight viable.


Trust me it's more than enough for 2 weekly DTW-Poland flights.


TRUST YOU????? Yeah....no. There is not one shred of data based on travel pattern and market segments what would support any service from Detroit to Poland. Your stories dont show anything of substance.

Detroit's Polish foreign born immigrant community is small. You cannot escape that.



How many passengers were flying between MSP and KEF before FI started flights there. I'm sure they didn't start service there based on the numbers of O/D passengers that flew between these 2 cities. Where DTW-Poland is concerned bring the service and people will use it.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:22 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Trust me it's more than enough for 2 weekly DTW-Poland flights.


TRUST YOU????? Yeah....no. There is not one shred of data based on travel pattern and market segments what would support any service from Detroit to Poland. Your stories dont show anything of substance.

Detroit's Polish foreign born immigrant community is small. You cannot escape that.



How many passengers were flying between MSP and KEF before FI started flights there. I'm sure they didn't start service there based on the numbers of O/D passengers that flew between these 2 cities. Where DTW-Poland is concerned bring the service and people will use it.


Thats a terrible comparrison. FI is a budget carrier with low operating costs. They fly a 757 which is much cheaper to operate, the stage length is much shorter, the number of frames required is fewer, and they started service to gain the budget conscious traveler to places like LON, PAR, AMS, etc.

Airlines and hubs that operate on a "build it and they will come" strategy go out of business or are bought out. Skybus and UA's "hublet" experiment in SAT come to mind.
It is what it is...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:26 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
That isnt remotely what I did. Data speaks for itself.

The link you posted is POLISH AMERICANS, not Polish Immigrants. Where did I say Detroit didnt have a large community of Polish descendants? What they dont have is a large number of Polish immigrants.

Just because you dont like the data, dont shoot the messenger. Its indisputable. I did take into consideration transplants. Thats were the 10k figure comes from. Total number of Polish Immigrants in the Detroit area.

As for how many came since immigration started, thats not remotely relevant since so many of them are dead. What matters is whats there now.


So only fresh immigrants contribute to travel growth back to their homeland??

If you torture data long enough, it will confess to anything.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:30 pm

Here is a good comparison to LO and DTW.

The Korean immigrant population in Houston is about the same size as Detroit's Polish immigrant community. The Korean community "demanded" a nonstop flight to Seoul. KE responded. It never made a dime and tanked and now they are not here. Instead KE retreated back to more DFW frequencies where the market is bigger and there is business traffic.

These experiments never end well. Profitable flights are driven by either business traffic or such a huge critical mass to one destination mixed with low carrier operating costs. DTW-WAW doesnt have either of those things.

Even if DTW-WAW could fill a plane (which it couldnt) that is 10% of the battle. It has to be profitable. Full planes do not equal profitable flights.
It is what it is...

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos