klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:14 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Well the reason MSP has no dedicated cargo flights is because there is very little manufacturing done there while the northern OH and Southeast Michigan is on of the largest manufacturing regions in the USA. So if PIT warrants twice weekly QR flights then a Detroit dedicated bulk cargo flight should be given from Korea or China at the very least.

YIP is the de-facto cargo hub for the on-demand integrated logistics needs of the automotive industry. The air cargo needs vastly differ by region and industry.

Listen I tend to ignore you posts about 50% of the time but you continually choose to not listen to other posters, have made zero effort to educate yourself or learn from other posters who attempt to provide other perspectives or data, go off on nonsensical diatribes ad-naseum about the same things over and over again, and literally pollute every thread that remotely involves DTW, ATL, MSP, any DL hub, and new route that doesn't include DTW, NK, or the WCAA.

Like others have said, go schedule a meeting with the WCAA and report back on what you find.
You have made DTW the laughing stock of a.net with your rants.

/rant over.



Actually I do listen and educate myself it doesn't mean I agree with the way things are done when it comes to DTW. This airport was once top 10 in the USA and Delta has allowed it to slip year after year while every hub that was in the top 10 at the same time has retained it's status and it's not an economy thing because Northwest kept us up there during the good and bad times but Delta chose to do quite the opposite they only airport it continues to maintain status is ATL. To me that is a lot of lost revenue for the airport and the region while it continues to make Atlanta as attractive as it can bringing new business making the market attractive it doesn't show the same commitment as far as Detroit is concerned. At Detroit when equipment is up-gauged frequency goes down. No I don't agree as long as Detroit is the ugly step child in the Delta network. You can not deny that Delta has kept the growth at the airport pretty much stagnant at the airport no at least NK is adding service perhaps pushing the numbers higher but the Delta practice has forced many people to turn to the roads because of their outrageously high fares which again detracts from the over all numbers at the airport but with the addition of WOW Air that hopefully will add more to our numbers but time will tell. Anyone have any idea how the WOW Air advance bookings are looking from Detroit ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:25 pm

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
]DTW-SJC is very likely since it’s now the largest underserved market and premium heavy.

I don’t see why they’d do a Saturday ANC. I also don’t see them bringing BGR back. YVR was 2x 320 on Sat, it never left or got in light.

Perhaps we can expect an SMF return too, DL does a good job with SFO so they won’t add OAK to counter NK.


SMF was an odd route. NW did not operate the route prior to the merger, nor did DL offer service from CVG. It operated summer seasonal for two years but in limited frequency; both years it was scheduled in advance as an MD-88 but switched to the A320 right before launch (of course, DL had mainline equipment shortages during that timeframe). Frankly, I'd be surprised if the route returned. SJC, OTOH, was launched circa 1997 alongside RNO as a preemptive strike against Reno Air. RNO ended in 2000 but SJC lasted until 2003. I'm skeptical DL will venture into SJC, as it'd cannibalize SFO -- with average fares on direct flights trending well into the $400-range, DTW/SFO is one of DL's top performing routes -- one that it and NW have notoriously constrained capacity on to inflate fares. OAK won't happen -- DL doesn't even operate it from ATL even though WN serves San Francisco via OAK, simply because one must discount OAK to make it attractive, impacting performance at SFO.

NW inaugurated DTW/ANC in 1990, and the route operated seasonally annually until DL whacked it a couple years ago, in favor of upgauging ATL from the 757 to 763. With ATL scheduled to operate as a 757 next summer, limited service from DTW is definitely a possibility for natural growth.
I guess if you were to include Hawaii and Alaska, the top 3 unserved domestic markets would be HNL, SJC, ANC in order. But in the continental US the top 3 unserved is SJC, SMF, TUS/ELP (are about tied) in order. Maybe we can see TUS on a 739 or ELP on a 319, with connections I think it’s more than possible. What we seem to be forgetting is Canadian service, we have YVR and it’s underserved but we should have YYC, that’s a fairly decent Canadian market that could be served summer seasonally. YQG has WS service to YYC.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:37 pm

Top 5 unserved domestic markets according to T-100 (ANC would be 3rd, HNL would be 1):
1. SJC ~180 each way (year round)
2. SMF ~150 each way (summer seasonal)
3. TUS ~120 each way (summer sessional
4. ELP ~105 each way (year round auto)
5. ABQ ~100 each way (summer seasonal)
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
reasonable
Posts: 87
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:58 pm

flymco753 wrote:
according to T-100


What is T-100?
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 677
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:32 pm

reasonable wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
according to T-100


What is T-100?

Top 100 US Airports
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:31 pm

flymco753 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
]DTW-SJC is very likely since it’s now the largest underserved market and premium heavy.

I don’t see why they’d do a Saturday ANC. I also don’t see them bringing BGR back. YVR was 2x 320 on Sat, it never left or got in light.

Perhaps we can expect an SMF return too, DL does a good job with SFO so they won’t add OAK to counter NK.


SMF was an odd route. NW did not operate the route prior to the merger, nor did DL offer service from CVG. It operated summer seasonal for two years but in limited frequency; both years it was scheduled in advance as an MD-88 but switched to the A320 right before launch (of course, DL had mainline equipment shortages during that timeframe). Frankly, I'd be surprised if the route returned. SJC, OTOH, was launched circa 1997 alongside RNO as a preemptive strike against Reno Air. RNO ended in 2000 but SJC lasted until 2003. I'm skeptical DL will venture into SJC, as it'd cannibalize SFO -- with average fares on direct flights trending well into the $400-range, DTW/SFO is one of DL's top performing routes -- one that it and NW have notoriously constrained capacity on to inflate fares. OAK won't happen -- DL doesn't even operate it from ATL even though WN serves San Francisco via OAK, simply because one must discount OAK to make it attractive, impacting performance at SFO.

NW inaugurated DTW/ANC in 1990, and the route operated seasonally annually until DL whacked it a couple years ago, in favor of upgauging ATL from the 757 to 763. With ATL scheduled to operate as a 757 next summer, limited service from DTW is definitely a possibility for natural growth.
I guess if you were to include Hawaii and Alaska, the top 3 unserved domestic markets would be HNL, SJC, ANC in order. But in the continental US the top 3 unserved is SJC, SMF, TUS/ELP (are about tied) in order. Maybe we can see TUS on a 739 or ELP on a 319, with connections I think it’s more than possible. What we seem to be forgetting is Canadian service, we have YVR and it’s underserved but we should have YYC, that’s a fairly decent Canadian market that could be served summer seasonally. YQG has WS service to YYC.


I agree if MSP can support YUL and YYZ then DTW should be able to support a daily YYC and YVR year round. XSo HNL is the top nonstop market not served from Detroit. The problem with the O/D numbers in this day and age is in some cases they are greatly skewed because of the incredibly high fares in some of these markets customer are double ticketing and driving to other airports to get better fares. I think a lot of the O/D traffic from Detroit to England is going over Canada now because you can get tickets for have the fare.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:01 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

SMF was an odd route. NW did not operate the route prior to the merger, nor did DL offer service from CVG. It operated summer seasonal for two years but in limited frequency; both years it was scheduled in advance as an MD-88 but switched to the A320 right before launch (of course, DL had mainline equipment shortages during that timeframe). Frankly, I'd be surprised if the route returned. SJC, OTOH, was launched circa 1997 alongside RNO as a preemptive strike against Reno Air. RNO ended in 2000 but SJC lasted until 2003. I'm skeptical DL will venture into SJC, as it'd cannibalize SFO -- with average fares on direct flights trending well into the $400-range, DTW/SFO is one of DL's top performing routes -- one that it and NW have notoriously constrained capacity on to inflate fares. OAK won't happen -- DL doesn't even operate it from ATL even though WN serves San Francisco via OAK, simply because one must discount OAK to make it attractive, impacting performance at SFO.

NW inaugurated DTW/ANC in 1990, and the route operated seasonally annually until DL whacked it a couple years ago, in favor of upgauging ATL from the 757 to 763. With ATL scheduled to operate as a 757 next summer, limited service from DTW is definitely a possibility for natural growth.
I guess if you were to include Hawaii and Alaska, the top 3 unserved domestic markets would be HNL, SJC, ANC in order. But in the continental US the top 3 unserved is SJC, SMF, TUS/ELP (are about tied) in order. Maybe we can see TUS on a 739 or ELP on a 319, with connections I think it’s more than possible. What we seem to be forgetting is Canadian service, we have YVR and it’s underserved but we should have YYC, that’s a fairly decent Canadian market that could be served summer seasonally. YQG has WS service to YYC.


I agree if MSP can support YUL and YYZ then DTW should be able to support a daily YYC and YVR year round. XSo HNL is the top nonstop market not served from Detroit. The problem with the O/D numbers in this day and age is in some cases they are greatly skewed because of the incredibly high fares in some of these markets customer are double ticketing and driving to other airports to get better fares. I think a lot of the O/D traffic from Detroit to England is going over Canada now because you can get tickets for have the fare.


That isnt how this works though. There is no "if MSP can do this, DTW can do that". That doesnt exist. Cities generate the traffic they generate to certain markets. Ill show you below:

MSP-YYZ - 146 PDEW
MSP-YUL - 42 PDEW

DTW-YVR - 18 PDEW
DTW-YYC - 6 PDEW

See how ridiculous that comparison is?
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Midwestindy
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:05 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Top 5 unserved domestic markets according to T-100 (ANC would be 3rd, HNL would be 1):
1. SJC ~180 each way (year round)
2. SMF ~150 each way (summer seasonal)
3. TUS ~120 each way (summer sessional
4. ELP ~105 each way (year round auto)
5. ABQ ~100 each way (summer seasonal)


I believe those numbers are off, looking at 2016-2017 Domestic Airfare report, SMF peaked at 80 PDEW, ABQ peaked at 44 PDEW, so I assume the rest may be off as well.

https://www.transportation.gov/policy/a ... are-report, Table 6 and Table 1a give you the PDEW.
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:07 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Top 5 unserved domestic markets according to T-100 (ANC would be 3rd, HNL would be 1):
1. SJC ~180 each way (year round)
2. SMF ~150 each way (summer seasonal)
3. TUS ~120 each way (summer sessional
4. ELP ~105 each way (year round auto)
5. ABQ ~100 each way (summer seasonal)


Those arent each way. Those would be total.
It is what it is...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:40 pm

Markets north, west, and closer proximity to MSP almost always tend to have more capacity flown to MSP versus DTW. Markets south, east, and in closer to proximity to DTW almost always have more capacity flown to DTW than MSP. Hence why markets like PDX, SEA, SFO flow more connecting traffic over MSP than DTW. Same goes for markets like BDL, BOS, PHL, and so forth over DTW.

YVR and ANC see a big spike of summer leisure traffic and also Alaska/BC cruises.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:27 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I guess if you were to include Hawaii and Alaska, the top 3 unserved domestic markets would be HNL, SJC, ANC in order. But in the continental US the top 3 unserved is SJC, SMF, TUS/ELP (are about tied) in order. Maybe we can see TUS on a 739 or ELP on a 319, with connections I think it’s more than possible. What we seem to be forgetting is Canadian service, we have YVR and it’s underserved but we should have YYC, that’s a fairly decent Canadian market that could be served summer seasonally. YQG has WS service to YYC.


I agree if MSP can support YUL and YYZ then DTW should be able to support a daily YYC and YVR year round. XSo HNL is the top nonstop market not served from Detroit. The problem with the O/D numbers in this day and age is in some cases they are greatly skewed because of the incredibly high fares in some of these markets customer are double ticketing and driving to other airports to get better fares. I think a lot of the O/D traffic from Detroit to England is going over Canada now because you can get tickets for have the fare.


That isnt how this works though. There is no "if MSP can do this, DTW can do that". That doesnt exist. Cities generate the traffic they generate to certain markets. Ill show you below:

MSP-YYZ - 146 PDEW
MSP-YUL - 42 PDEW

DTW-YVR - 18 PDEW
DTW-YYC - 6 PDEW

See how ridiculous that comparison is?



Keep in mind MSP already has multiple nonstops to each airport DTW has none I would also suggest you add in the Windsor numbers
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:49 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

I agree if MSP can support YUL and YYZ then DTW should be able to support a daily YYC and YVR year round. XSo HNL is the top nonstop market not served from Detroit. The problem with the O/D numbers in this day and age is in some cases they are greatly skewed because of the incredibly high fares in some of these markets customer are double ticketing and driving to other airports to get better fares. I think a lot of the O/D traffic from Detroit to England is going over Canada now because you can get tickets for have the fare.


That isnt how this works though. There is no "if MSP can do this, DTW can do that". That doesnt exist. Cities generate the traffic they generate to certain markets. Ill show you below:

MSP-YYZ - 146 PDEW
MSP-YUL - 42 PDEW

DTW-YVR - 18 PDEW
DTW-YYC - 6 PDEW

See how ridiculous that comparison is?



Keep in mind MSP already has multiple nonstops to each airport DTW has none I would also suggest you add in the Windsor numbers


No, thats not how this works either. If the traffic was high yielding enough (ie the traffic the airline really cares about), they wouldnt drive to Windsor to fly anyway.

Youre overestimating the bleed to Windsor from Detroit here. First of all, Windsor has NO nonstop flights to Vancouver and only gets flights to Calgary on Westjet to Calgary a few days a week in the summer.
It is what it is...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:39 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

That isnt how this works though. There is no "if MSP can do this, DTW can do that". That doesnt exist. Cities generate the traffic they generate to certain markets. Ill show you below:

MSP-YYZ - 146 PDEW
MSP-YUL - 42 PDEW

DTW-YVR - 18 PDEW
DTW-YYC - 6 PDEW

See how ridiculous that comparison is?



Keep in mind MSP already has multiple nonstops to each airport DTW has none I would also suggest you add in the Windsor numbers


No, thats not how this works either. If the traffic was high yielding enough (ie the traffic the airline really cares about), they wouldnt drive to Windsor to fly anyway.

Youre overestimating the bleed to Windsor from Detroit here. First of all, Windsor has NO nonstop flights to Vancouver and only gets flights to Calgary on Westjet to Calgary a few days a week in the summer.



I guarantee you that if you put flights in those market the O/D will go up and no I am not over stating the bleed over to Canada especially where Europe is concerned and by the way Westjet flies daily. Just like you can't accurately calculate the O/D from YQG to Florida because of all the bleed over to the Detroit area for our cheaper Florida fares.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
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Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:48 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Keep in mind MSP already has multiple nonstops to each airport DTW has none I would also suggest you add in the Windsor numbers


No, thats not how this works either. If the traffic was high yielding enough (ie the traffic the airline really cares about), they wouldnt drive to Windsor to fly anyway.

Youre overestimating the bleed to Windsor from Detroit here. First of all, Windsor has NO nonstop flights to Vancouver and only gets flights to Calgary on Westjet to Calgary a few days a week in the summer.



I guarantee you that if you put flights in those market the O/D will go up and no I am not over stating the bleed over to Canada especially where Europe is concerned and by the way Westjet flies daily. Just like you can't accurately calculate the O/D from YQG to Florida because of all the bleed over to the Detroit area for our cheaper Florida fares.


You dont get to claim all the traffic from Windsor as Detroit's. And no, Westjet doesnt fly daily to Windsor in the summer.

Riddle me this, what economic ties are there between Detroit and Western Canada? Because just about 100% of the Canadian auto industry is in the eastern half of Canada. Windsor would most definitely have more economic ties to Calgary and Vancouver simply by being in the same country and those economic ties are still few and far between.

As far as European bleed from DTW, why on earth should the airline care about garbage fare traffic? The only people who are driving from Detroit into Canada to fly to Europe are your bargain basement fare hunters. Those are the passengers airlines typically dont make a dime off of. Your high yielding traffic from DTW to Europe is Germany/AMS/CDG heavy and they wouldnt dream of going through that inconvenience.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:40 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

No, thats not how this works either. If the traffic was high yielding enough (ie the traffic the airline really cares about), they wouldnt drive to Windsor to fly anyway.

Youre overestimating the bleed to Windsor from Detroit here. First of all, Windsor has NO nonstop flights to Vancouver and only gets flights to Calgary on Westjet to Calgary a few days a week in the summer.



I guarantee you that if you put flights in those market the O/D will go up and no I am not over stating the bleed over to Canada especially where Europe is concerned and by the way Westjet flies daily. Just like you can't accurately calculate the O/D from YQG to Florida because of all the bleed over to the Detroit area for our cheaper Florida fares.


You dont get to claim all the traffic from Windsor as Detroit's. And no, Westjet doesnt fly daily to Windsor in the summer.

Riddle me this, what economic ties are there between Detroit and Western Canada? Because just about 100% of the Canadian auto industry is in the eastern half of Canada. Windsor would most definitely have more economic ties to Calgary and Vancouver simply by being in the same country and those economic ties are still few and far between.

As far as European bleed from DTW, why on earth should the airline care about garbage fare traffic? The only people who are driving from Detroit into Canada to fly to Europe are your bargain basement fare hunters. Those are the passengers airlines typically dont make a dime off of. Your high yielding traffic from DTW to Europe is Germany/AMS/CDG heavy and they wouldnt dream of going through that inconvenience.



Riddle me this what economic ties are there between Western Canada and Minneapolis. I agree with you on the garbage fares Delta doesn't care about those but don't block other airlines from entering the Detroit market to cater to this traveler by crying in the ear of the WCAA detouring them from aggressively pursuing these kinds of flights to Detroit rather than the more passive approach the airport currently uses. Just because Delta doesn't care about those passengers doesn't mean the airport should lose that revenue to other airport. Passenger Facility charges, parking charges and airport concessions.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:41 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

No, thats not how this works either. If the traffic was high yielding enough (ie the traffic the airline really cares about), they wouldnt drive to Windsor to fly anyway.

Youre overestimating the bleed to Windsor from Detroit here. First of all, Windsor has NO nonstop flights to Vancouver and only gets flights to Calgary on Westjet to Calgary a few days a week in the summer.



I guarantee you that if you put flights in those market the O/D will go up and no I am not over stating the bleed over to Canada especially where Europe is concerned and by the way Westjet flies daily. Just like you can't accurately calculate the O/D from YQG to Florida because of all the bleed over to the Detroit area for our cheaper Florida fares.


You dont get to claim all the traffic from Windsor as Detroit's. And no, Westjet doesnt fly daily to Windsor in the summer.

Riddle me this, what economic ties are there between Detroit and Western Canada? Because just about 100% of the Canadian auto industry is in the eastern half of Canada. Windsor would most definitely have more economic ties to Calgary and Vancouver simply by being in the same country and those economic ties are still few and far between.

As far as European bleed from DTW, why on earth should the airline care about garbage fare traffic? The only people who are driving from Detroit into Canada to fly to Europe are your bargain basement fare hunters. Those are the passengers airlines typically dont make a dime off of. Your high yielding traffic from DTW to Europe is Germany/AMS/CDG heavy and they wouldnt dream of going through that inconvenience.



Again you don't look at the full picture you are only seeing the issue from the airlines point of view.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4904
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:49 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


I guarantee you that if you put flights in those market the O/D will go up and no I am not over stating the bleed over to Canada especially where Europe is concerned and by the way Westjet flies daily. Just like you can't accurately calculate the O/D from YQG to Florida because of all the bleed over to the Detroit area for our cheaper Florida fares.


You dont get to claim all the traffic from Windsor as Detroit's. And no, Westjet doesnt fly daily to Windsor in the summer.

Riddle me this, what economic ties are there between Detroit and Western Canada? Because just about 100% of the Canadian auto industry is in the eastern half of Canada. Windsor would most definitely have more economic ties to Calgary and Vancouver simply by being in the same country and those economic ties are still few and far between.

As far as European bleed from DTW, why on earth should the airline care about garbage fare traffic? The only people who are driving from Detroit into Canada to fly to Europe are your bargain basement fare hunters. Those are the passengers airlines typically dont make a dime off of. Your high yielding traffic from DTW to Europe is Germany/AMS/CDG heavy and they wouldnt dream of going through that inconvenience.



Riddle me this what economic ties are there between Western Canada and Minneapolis. I agree with you on the garbage fares Delta doesn't care about those but don't block other airlines from entering the Detroit market to cater to this traveler by crying in the ear of the WCAA detouring them from aggressively pursuing these kinds of flights to Detroit rather than the more passive approach the airport currently uses. Just because Delta doesn't care about those passengers doesn't mean the airport should lose that revenue to other airport. Passenger Facility charges, parking charges and airport concessions.


There arent many economic ties between Minneapolis and Western Canada. MSP just has better geography to serve those markets. There, for example, a LOT of ties between Texas, Oklahoma, and the Dakotas and Western Canada. MSP can capture traffic like that, DTW is a big back track. Plus from MSP, you can fly an E-175 to Vancouver. From DTW you cannot.

And yes I am looking at it from the airlines point of view because they are the ones providing the service. DL doesnt owe DTW a single thing (same goes for ATL, MSP, and SLC). They will and should fly whats profitable for them. Id love UA to fly IAH-HKG, however it wouldnt be profitable so they shouldnt fly it. Its the same thing here. The airline provides the service so they get to chose where they provide the service to and from. The airport is a service provider to the airline and to the city. Its not the airlines problem if the airport doesnt have a specific number of destinations.
It is what it is...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:09 am

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


I guarantee you that if you put flights in those market the O/D will go up and no I am not over stating the bleed over to Canada especially where Europe is concerned and by the way Westjet flies daily. Just like you can't accurately calculate the O/D from YQG to Florida because of all the bleed over to the Detroit area for our cheaper Florida fares.


You dont get to claim all the traffic from Windsor as Detroit's. And no, Westjet doesnt fly daily to Windsor in the summer.

Riddle me this, what economic ties are there between Detroit and Western Canada? Because just about 100% of the Canadian auto industry is in the eastern half of Canada. Windsor would most definitely have more economic ties to Calgary and Vancouver simply by being in the same country and those economic ties are still few and far between.

As far as European bleed from DTW, why on earth should the airline care about garbage fare traffic? The only people who are driving from Detroit into Canada to fly to Europe are your bargain basement fare hunters. Those are the passengers airlines typically dont make a dime off of. Your high yielding traffic from DTW to Europe is Germany/AMS/CDG heavy and they wouldnt dream of going through that inconvenience.



Again you don't look at the full picture you are only seeing the issue from the airlines point of view.

Because that's the point of view that matters. The airlines, as the ones providing flights, are working to their self-interest. That lines up to demand and business ties, and also to geography. It does not line up with a.netters' wet dreams and Napoleonic Airport Complex
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:37 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

You dont get to claim all the traffic from Windsor as Detroit's. And no, Westjet doesnt fly daily to Windsor in the summer.

Riddle me this, what economic ties are there between Detroit and Western Canada? Because just about 100% of the Canadian auto industry is in the eastern half of Canada. Windsor would most definitely have more economic ties to Calgary and Vancouver simply by being in the same country and those economic ties are still few and far between.

As far as European bleed from DTW, why on earth should the airline care about garbage fare traffic? The only people who are driving from Detroit into Canada to fly to Europe are your bargain basement fare hunters. Those are the passengers airlines typically dont make a dime off of. Your high yielding traffic from DTW to Europe is Germany/AMS/CDG heavy and they wouldnt dream of going through that inconvenience.



Again you don't look at the full picture you are only seeing the issue from the airlines point of view.

Because that's the point of view that matters. The airlines, as the ones providing flights, are working to their self-interest. That lines up to demand and business ties, and also to geography. It does not line up with a.netters' wet dreams and Napoleonic Airport Complex



No that isn't what matters the well being of all those concerned should be taken into account not just what is good for the airline.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:41 am

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Again you don't look at the full picture you are only seeing the issue from the airlines point of view.

Because that's the point of view that matters. The airlines, as the ones providing flights, are working to their self-interest. That lines up to demand and business ties, and also to geography. It does not line up with a.netters' wet dreams and Napoleonic Airport Complex



No that isn't what matters the well being of all those concerned should be taken into account not just what is good for the airline.


You’re confusing an airline with a non profit organization.
It is what it is...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:45 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

You dont get to claim all the traffic from Windsor as Detroit's. And no, Westjet doesnt fly daily to Windsor in the summer.

Riddle me this, what economic ties are there between Detroit and Western Canada? Because just about 100% of the Canadian auto industry is in the eastern half of Canada. Windsor would most definitely have more economic ties to Calgary and Vancouver simply by being in the same country and those economic ties are still few and far between.

As far as European bleed from DTW, why on earth should the airline care about garbage fare traffic? The only people who are driving from Detroit into Canada to fly to Europe are your bargain basement fare hunters. Those are the passengers airlines typically dont make a dime off of. Your high yielding traffic from DTW to Europe is Germany/AMS/CDG heavy and they wouldnt dream of going through that inconvenience.



Riddle me this what economic ties are there between Western Canada and Minneapolis. I agree with you on the garbage fares Delta doesn't care about those but don't block other airlines from entering the Detroit market to cater to this traveler by crying in the ear of the WCAA detouring them from aggressively pursuing these kinds of flights to Detroit rather than the more passive approach the airport currently uses. Just because Delta doesn't care about those passengers doesn't mean the airport should lose that revenue to other airport. Passenger Facility charges, parking charges and airport concessions.


There arent many economic ties between Minneapolis and Western Canada. MSP just has better geography to serve those markets. There, for example, a LOT of ties between Texas, Oklahoma, and the Dakotas and Western Canada. MSP can capture traffic like that, DTW is a big back track. Plus from MSP, you can fly an E-175 to Vancouver. From DTW you cannot.

And yes I am looking at it from the airlines point of view because they are the ones providing the service. DL doesnt owe DTW a single thing (same goes for ATL, MSP, and SLC). They will and should fly whats profitable for them. Id love UA to fly IAH-HKG, however it wouldnt be profitable so they shouldnt fly it. Its the same thing here. The airline provides the service so they get to chose where they provide the service to and from. The airport is a service provider to the airline and to the city. Its not the airlines problem if the airport doesnt have a specific number of destinations.


They why do the airlines think the airports owe them something. There are instances where routes are not flown that would work but now through consolidation airlines have become so powerful that they can manipulate any market they want to and make it near impossible for any start up to survive. Right and they should provide a service that meets the needs of the people they are serving not just the needs of their best interests. Why doesn't the airport or the region or even the customer matter to you. Just because you have ample competition at your home airport to keep fares low doesn't mean someone from ICT that wants to go to Europe shouldn't be gouged to subsidize the low fares that are being offered just because you live in a large metropolitan area..
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:46 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
Because that's the point of view that matters. The airlines, as the ones providing flights, are working to their self-interest. That lines up to demand and business ties, and also to geography. It does not line up with a.netters' wet dreams and Napoleonic Airport Complex



No that isn't what matters the well being of all those concerned should be taken into account not just what is good for the airline.


You’re confusing an airline with a non profit organization.


No I'm not. I am stating what ethical business practices are all about something that has been lost in this country.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:00 am

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Riddle me this what economic ties are there between Western Canada and Minneapolis. I agree with you on the garbage fares Delta doesn't care about those but don't block other airlines from entering the Detroit market to cater to this traveler by crying in the ear of the WCAA detouring them from aggressively pursuing these kinds of flights to Detroit rather than the more passive approach the airport currently uses. Just because Delta doesn't care about those passengers doesn't mean the airport should lose that revenue to other airport. Passenger Facility charges, parking charges and airport concessions.


There arent many economic ties between Minneapolis and Western Canada. MSP just has better geography to serve those markets. There, for example, a LOT of ties between Texas, Oklahoma, and the Dakotas and Western Canada. MSP can capture traffic like that, DTW is a big back track. Plus from MSP, you can fly an E-175 to Vancouver. From DTW you cannot.

And yes I am looking at it from the airlines point of view because they are the ones providing the service. DL doesnt owe DTW a single thing (same goes for ATL, MSP, and SLC). They will and should fly whats profitable for them. Id love UA to fly IAH-HKG, however it wouldnt be profitable so they shouldnt fly it. Its the same thing here. The airline provides the service so they get to chose where they provide the service to and from. The airport is a service provider to the airline and to the city. Its not the airlines problem if the airport doesnt have a specific number of destinations.


They why do the airlines think the airports owe them something. There are instances where routes are not flown that would work but now through consolidation airlines have become so powerful that they can manipulate any market they want to and make it near impossible for any start up to survive. Right and they should provide a service that meets the needs of the people they are serving not just the needs of their best interests. Why doesn't the airport or the region or even the customer matter to you. Just because you have ample competition at your home airport to keep fares low doesn't mean someone from ICT that wants to go to Europe shouldn't be gouged to subsidize the low fares that are being offered just because you live in a large metropolitan area..


What you’re describing is the airlines as they existed in regulation. That isn’t coming back and it shouldn’t. Airlines fly where the demand is. The airport acts as the broker for the city. To get the airlines attention they offer incentives. The airline doesn’t think the city owes them but if a city wants service to market it doesn’t have the demand for, the city and airport have to make it worth the airlines while.
It is what it is...
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:01 am

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


No that isn't what matters the well being of all those concerned should be taken into account not just what is good for the airline.


You’re confusing an airline with a non profit organization.


No I'm not. I am stating what ethical business practices are all about something that has been lost in this country.


Ethics doesn’t involve DTW getting routes to YVR or MAN just because another hub has them. DTW doesn’t have the local market for either of those cities.
It is what it is...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:48 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

There arent many economic ties between Minneapolis and Western Canada. MSP just has better geography to serve those markets. There, for example, a LOT of ties between Texas, Oklahoma, and the Dakotas and Western Canada. MSP can capture traffic like that, DTW is a big back track. Plus from MSP, you can fly an E-175 to Vancouver. From DTW you cannot.

And yes I am looking at it from the airlines point of view because they are the ones providing the service. DL doesnt owe DTW a single thing (same goes for ATL, MSP, and SLC). They will and should fly whats profitable for them. Id love UA to fly IAH-HKG, however it wouldnt be profitable so they shouldnt fly it. Its the same thing here. The airline provides the service so they get to chose where they provide the service to and from. The airport is a service provider to the airline and to the city. Its not the airlines problem if the airport doesnt have a specific number of destinations.


They why do the airlines think the airports owe them something. There are instances where routes are not flown that would work but now through consolidation airlines have become so powerful that they can manipulate any market they want to and make it near impossible for any start up to survive. Right and they should provide a service that meets the needs of the people they are serving not just the needs of their best interests. Why doesn't the airport or the region or even the customer matter to you. Just because you have ample competition at your home airport to keep fares low doesn't mean someone from ICT that wants to go to Europe shouldn't be gouged to subsidize the low fares that are being offered just because you live in a large metropolitan area..


What you’re describing is the airlines as they existed in regulation. That isn’t coming back and it shouldn’t. Airlines fly where the demand is. The airport acts as the broker for the city. To get the airlines attention they offer incentives. The airline doesn’t think the city owes them but if a city wants service to market it doesn’t have the demand for, the city and airport have to make it worth the airlines while.


And in Detroit that is greatly lacking when it comes to marketing itself compared to other airports..
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:52 am

That got more mileage than I thought. Lots of information.
Everyone is quiet about NK's recent additions, I'd like to hear more of what everyone says about it because frankly, NK's share in the market will break 10% themselves, DL is simply not stopping NK's growth at DTW.
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2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:21 am

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

They why do the airlines think the airports owe them something. There are instances where routes are not flown that would work but now through consolidation airlines have become so powerful that they can manipulate any market they want to and make it near impossible for any start up to survive. Right and they should provide a service that meets the needs of the people they are serving not just the needs of their best interests. Why doesn't the airport or the region or even the customer matter to you. Just because you have ample competition at your home airport to keep fares low doesn't mean someone from ICT that wants to go to Europe shouldn't be gouged to subsidize the low fares that are being offered just because you live in a large metropolitan area..


What you’re describing is the airlines as they existed in regulation. That isn’t coming back and it shouldn’t. Airlines fly where the demand is. The airport acts as the broker for the city. To get the airlines attention they offer incentives. The airline doesn’t think the city owes them but if a city wants service to market it doesn’t have the demand for, the city and airport have to make it worth the airlines while.


And in Detroit that is greatly lacking when it comes to marketing itself compared to other airports..

Most airports aren't out there marketing themselves to the airlines. The ones that really do tend to be saddled with large, empty facilities (dehubbes ones, like MCI and PIT). Established airports with hub carriers will market themselves more passively, while working with resident airlines to bolster service.
As one of DL's largest hubs, and with decently well-utilized facilities, DTW is fortunate to be of the former kind.

One more detail: airports like PIT tend to throw massive sums at these new flights. That Detroit can attract its level of service without throwing wads of cash at airlines should be a source of pride.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
GSP psgr
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:14 am

Three random points:

a) I would not fall over in shock if AC were to announce a DTW-YUL CRJ flight in the next two years. YUL's grown enormously as a transatlantic/transpacific gateway in the past 10 years, which combined with YUL O&D and regional Canadian connections, makes a lot more transborder destinations possible.

b) For all the moaning about DTW's transatlantic capacity and destinations, have you taken a look at AA in the off season at ORD lately? All that's left is LHR on AA and MAD on IB. That's it. LHR, AMS (x a lot), CDG, and FRA suddenly feel like winning, no?

c) The architecture an design at DTW has aged really well; look at what PIT is having to spend to redesign their terminal. Part of that is the fact that the US Airways hub is no longer there, but concrete brutalist architecture has gotten better with age.....
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:09 pm

I think some of the numbers are off, DTW and YQG combined is like 100 per day each way in the summer, enough to fill an A319 or a WS 737.

O&D to YUL has grown pretty significantly in the last few years, I expect the night departure from DTW to become a 717 eventually.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:17 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I think some of the numbers are off, DTW and YQG combined is like 100 per day each way in the summer, enough to fill an A319 or a WS 737.

O&D to YUL has grown pretty significantly in the last few years, I expect the night departure from DTW to become a 717 eventually.


You can't make numbers up to make an argument.
It is what it is...
 
User001
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:53 pm

MAN-DTW rumour died a death when DL handed the last route (ATL-MAN) to VS and then DL took back LHR-DTW off Virgin. Means even less chance of a route now, as the best aircraft for this route, if anything at all, would have been a B757.

The next new US routes likely to launch from MAN would either be PVD/SWF via Norwegian, or Tampa via Thomas Cook. Time to let MAN-DTW go.......
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:54 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I think some of the numbers are off, DTW and YQG combined is like 100 per day each way in the summer, enough to fill an A319 or a WS 737.

O&D to YUL has grown pretty significantly in the last few years, I expect the night departure from DTW to become a 717 eventually.


You can't make numbers up to make an argument.
6 one way seems pretty shallow though, I’m flipping through some data sources to make sure.
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jetlanta
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:39 pm

klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Well the reason MSP has no dedicated cargo flights is because there is very little manufacturing done there while the northern OH and Southeast Michigan is on of the largest manufacturing regions in the USA. So if PIT warrants twice weekly QR flights then a Detroit dedicated bulk cargo flight should be given from Korea or China at the very least.

YIP is the de-facto cargo hub for the on-demand integrated logistics needs of the automotive industry. The air cargo needs vastly differ by region and industry.

Listen I tend to ignore you posts about 50% of the time but you continually choose to not listen to other posters, have made zero effort to educate yourself or learn from other posters who attempt to provide other perspectives or data, go off on nonsensical diatribes ad-naseum about the same things over and over again, and literally pollute every thread that remotely involves DTW, ATL, MSP, any DL hub, and new route that doesn't include DTW, NK, or the WCAA.

Like others have said, go schedule a meeting with the WCAA and report back on what you find.
You have made DTW the laughing stock of a.net with your rants.

/rant over.



Actually I do listen and educate myself it doesn't mean I agree with the way things are done when it comes to DTW. This airport was once top 10 in the USA and Delta has allowed it to slip year after year while every hub that was in the top 10 at the same time has retained it's status and it's not an economy thing because Northwest kept us up there during the good and bad times but Delta chose to do quite the opposite they only airport it continues to maintain status is ATL. To me that is a lot of lost revenue for the airport and the region while it continues to make Atlanta as attractive as it can bringing new business making the market attractive it doesn't show the same commitment as far as Detroit is concerned. At Detroit when equipment is up-gauged frequency goes down. No I don't agree as long as Detroit is the ugly step child in the Delta network. You can not deny that Delta has kept the growth at the airport pretty much stagnant at the airport no at least NK is adding service perhaps pushing the numbers higher but the Delta practice has forced many people to turn to the roads because of their outrageously high fares which again detracts from the over all numbers at the airport but with the addition of WOW Air that hopefully will add more to our numbers but time will tell. Anyone have any idea how the WOW Air advance bookings are looking from Detroit ?


I know this is pointless, but here goes. First some perspective. I began my airline carrier as a Temporary Part-Time Airport Customer Service Agent with Delta (not NW) in Detroit in 1992, right after the Pan Am asset acquisition. In my 13-year Delta career, I held positions in ACS in three cities including DTW and ATL. I spent most of my career in Network Planning. As a Michigander that began my Delta career (which I had aspired to since I was 12) at my favorite airport in the world, DTW. I'm many years beyond my career at Delta but I am still very heavily involved in the the Network Planning aspect of the business. I personally and professionally know all of the key people at Delta, DTW and all of the other airlines you talk/complain about. All of them. I'm also privy to signifiant amounts of financial and operational data that the vast majority of people on this board are not.

You are delusional.

Delta has four fortress hubs that perform at similar profitability levels (margins) because they are perfectly sized and well-coordinated. DTW is one of them. For years after the recession, DTW was a challenging hub. It, and the entire Great Lakes region, took a huge financial hit from which it has never fully recovered. The metro and state populations are stagnant at a time that rapid growth is happening in many key metro areas, especially on the coasts. Those are the battlefields. That is where the energy goes. NYC/SEA/LAX/BOS/RDU. Those markets are where the growth has been going. Its not going to ATL in terms of frequency. ATL has seen its capacity grow slightly more than DTW because it is the lowest hanging fruit for upgrades to 739/321s, due to the volume that it produces its stellar margins at. But Atlanta is also the fastest-growing economy of any major city at the moment and it is only accelerating. I LOVE Detroit, but I live in ATL. There is no comparison between the two in terms of economic production and growth.

You have to stop comparing the two. Detroit will NEVER win that battle. Give it up.

On the other hand, DTW is doing great for Delta. But Delta is a premium network carrier. That is the role it will occupy. Don't expect it to lead fare wars and unbridled capacity growth at DTW. It has a mature network at all four of its fortress hubs. There is VERY little net "network" movement at any of them. Changes are on the margins and should never be over-analyzed.

Now, about WCAA. Just shut up. I promise you that they are doing virtually EVERYTHING you think they are not doing. The airport has only limited scope under FAA guidelines to offer incentives. They offer what they can. They travel extensively, no less than any other similar airport. You mentioned China. I'd estimate that they've met with different Chinese airlines at least 100 times in the past five years. But here is the truth. There are no available frequencies under the bilateral for any US or Chinese carrier to add service between a Tier 1 Chinese market and the US. It ain't happening anytime soon, even if they wanted. But WCAA continues to talk to them, I assure you. WCAA's main issue is that the market has enough international capacity for its size in the eyes of the world's airlines. None of them want to risk a war with Delta over what they consider to be a very marginal opportunity. BA doesn't fly to Detroit because they've been there, done that. They know how tough it is. That is what WCAA is up against everywhere.

As someone who lives and breathes in the Air Service Development world, you seriously overestimate the Detroit's position in the global pecking order. The market is not big enough to support what you think it can. Without the Delta hub, Detroit would be lucky to have one flight to Asia. The city's brand, unfortunately, is severely damaged in the eyes of the world. Additionally, the types of jobs that drive Detroit's economy are less-inclined to travel than many others. Engineers, R&D and blue collar workers simply don't travel like the professional services (consultants)industries that dominate in places like ATL. So while the economy may be well-sized, the TYPE of economy Detroit has does not engender air travel.

I appreciate your enthusiasm. But your ravings are toxic and have driven many of us away. Many of us who would be happy to help provide insight that you so desperately want. Might I suggest that, instead of coming in with strong opinions about things you do not understand, you instead ask questions, Maybe you some of the smart folks on here can answer them. One thing I can assure you of is that ranting on here isn't going to change anything you want changed.

Sorry to be condescending But that is where we are.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:57 pm

That’s why Spirit does so well up in Detroit, low fares to popular destinations. NK’s recent PDX add could’ve been done to PHX but it gives me the impression NK is in Detroit and is there to stay and continue their growth.
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KarlB737
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:51 pm

klm617 wrote:
Would DET not be a great place for Onejet to start a base of operations.


While others have rejected this idea I think it might have some merit for OneJet. The main advantage for them to consider DET would be the lack of any competition whatsoever to start. If the service does well and starts to create a draw some other small RJ or Express airlines could consider same which could bring additional passengers to DET. Yes the airport is in need of some improvements but with the economy and the stock market starting to take-off one can no longer just rule out this airport and who might want to use it.
 
reasonable
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:00 pm

jetlanta wrote:
But that is where we are.


Finally, somebody here who appears dispassionate and rational. Thank you for making a solid contribution.

You mention the Detroit brand as having been a limitation in previous years. I suspect that as the Detroit region's brand recovers to parallel its incomplete but impressive economic recovery, there will be a rather modest but comparatively impressive expansion of service. I would put recent service expansions in this category also. I have no idea what it might yield—perhaps an additional transatlantic route, a return to HKG, or additional low fare carriers to Europe. Who knows. For DTW to grow beyond a mature, stable fortress hub with multiple alternative service options that are also stable but not extensive, the region will need to see significant population growth fueled by new economic opportunities. Such a scenario isn't too outlandish, but it won't happen quickly; and certainly not fast enough to satisfy klm.

Shrug.

But I really don't understand the angst. DTW is an international gateway for a premium carrier. Delta's 350 flagship product (Delta refers to it as "flagship," in fact!) is based in DTW, not ATL or SEA. DTW has growing low fare alternative service. Maybe it's more expensive because of premium DL's pricing power, but in the long run is that so bad? It's a gorgeous airport that operates well and has triple parallel landings when busy to titillate the fanboy man-children who stake their personal identities to seeing a busy airport. Life is good! Everyone relax!

Lastly, if WCAA wants to help grow air service, it needs to get involved in marketing the region's economic strength and crafting a narrative around Detroit as a city-in-waiting. They can start by redoing the horrifically embarrassing, low-rent, unsophisticated, and mostly useless website.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:06 pm

Delta’s beloved CRJ-700 Service to JAX seems to be diminishing to 717s and MD-90s with the draw down in RJ’s, I suspect OKC will be next to get regular mainline as an RJ destination.
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BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:44 pm

Here’s what I would like to see in Detroit by 2020 and I would like to be realistic:
Delta: Just add SJC!
Spirit: Make Boston, Seattle, San Diego, and Oakland year-round. Add Nashville, Austin, and possibly Phoenix. (Didn’t they serve Phoenix before?) if they add this, I think Spirit will be pretty healthy here.
Wow Air: If the route is a success, (How wouldn’t it?) this route should be daily.
I think British Airways or Norwegian will come with time, but I think we will have to wait longer.
I’m certain there will be some suprises in here and there too. Frontier and JetBlue could expand.
I also still believe that one of the ME3 could enter DTW, but also not for a few years. Lastly, it would be very nice if Delta would stop cutting so many regional routes from Detroit, it seems that an average of two routes are disappearing every year.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:02 pm

NK extended their schedule and this year SEA is being extended past September as it ended last year, it continues into October. PDX and SAN end in September but last year OAK did so well they kept it going until November, I feel SAN will be that way as well as be upgraded to an A321.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:38 pm

BenflysDTW wrote:
Here’s what I would like to see in Detroit by 2020 and I would like to be realistic:
Delta: Just add SJC!
Spirit: Make Boston, Seattle, San Diego, and Oakland year-round. Add Nashville, Austin, and possibly Phoenix. (Didn’t they serve Phoenix before?) if they add this, I think Spirit will be pretty healthy here.
Wow Air: If the route is a success, (How wouldn’t it?) this route should be daily.
I think British Airways or Norwegian will come with time, but I think we will have to wait longer.
I’m certain there will be some suprises in here and there too. Frontier and JetBlue could expand.
I also still believe that one of the ME3 could enter DTW, but also not for a few years. Lastly, it would be very nice if Delta would stop cutting so many regional routes from Detroit, it seems that an average of two routes are disappearing every year.



The question is not whether low cost service from Detroit to Europe will be successful the question is will WOW Air even be around in two years. We would have been far better with Icelandair serving the route even if it was only with a 737. 3 Weekly on DY from DTW-LGW is also surly doable.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:04 pm

klm617 wrote:
BenflysDTW wrote:
Here’s what I would like to see in Detroit by 2020 and I would like to be realistic:
Delta: Just add SJC!
Spirit: Make Boston, Seattle, San Diego, and Oakland year-round. Add Nashville, Austin, and possibly Phoenix. (Didn’t they serve Phoenix before?) if they add this, I think Spirit will be pretty healthy here.
Wow Air: If the route is a success, (How wouldn’t it?) this route should be daily.
I think British Airways or Norwegian will come with time, but I think we will have to wait longer.
I’m certain there will be some suprises in here and there too. Frontier and JetBlue could expand.
I also still believe that one of the ME3 could enter DTW, but also not for a few years. Lastly, it would be very nice if Delta would stop cutting so many regional routes from Detroit, it seems that an average of two routes are disappearing every year.



The question is not whether low cost service from Detroit to Europe will be successful the question is will WOW Air even be around in two years. We would have been far better with Icelandair serving the route even if it was only with a 737. 3 Weekly on DY from DTW-LGW is also surly doable.

You're kidding, right?
WOW Air is pretty stable, much more so than, say, Norwegian.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:25 pm

reasonable wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
But that is where we are.


Finally, somebody here who appears dispassionate and rational. Thank you for making a solid contribution.

You mention the Detroit brand as having been a limitation in previous years. I suspect that as the Detroit region's brand recovers to parallel its incomplete but impressive economic recovery, there will be a rather modest but comparatively impressive expansion of service. I would put recent service expansions in this category also. I have no idea what it might yield—perhaps an additional transatlantic route, a return to HKG, or additional low fare carriers to Europe. Who knows. For DTW to grow beyond a mature, stable fortress hub with multiple alternative service options that are also stable but not extensive, the region will need to see significant population growth fueled by new economic opportunities. Such a scenario isn't too outlandish, but it won't happen quickly; and certainly not fast enough to satisfy klm.

Shrug.

But I really don't understand the angst. DTW is an international gateway for a premium carrier. Delta's 350 flagship product (Delta refers to it as "flagship," in fact!) is based in DTW, not ATL or SEA. DTW has growing low fare alternative service. Maybe it's more expensive because of premium DL's pricing power, but in the long run is that so bad? It's a gorgeous airport that operates well and has triple parallel landings when busy to titillate the fanboy man-children who stake their personal identities to seeing a busy airport. Life is good! Everyone relax!

Lastly, if WCAA wants to help grow air service, it needs to get involved in marketing the region's economic strength and crafting a narrative around Detroit as a city-in-waiting. They can start by redoing the horrifically embarrassing, low-rent, unsophisticated, and mostly useless website.


I think it would be a great idea for the WCAA to invest in a marketing firm to effectively market the airport to bring new business in. After all they spent money on that aviation firm that did a very detailed analysis of the airport operations why not get a PR form in here that has expertise in aviation marketing that can help this airport get new flights by effectively marketing this region to prospective entrants into this market. Hence cargo operations and low cost international carriers to fill a void at Detroit and get those people who are using other airports back to using DTW to add to the revenue at DTW.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:41 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
BenflysDTW wrote:
Here’s what I would like to see in Detroit by 2020 and I would like to be realistic:
Delta: Just add SJC!
Spirit: Make Boston, Seattle, San Diego, and Oakland year-round. Add Nashville, Austin, and possibly Phoenix. (Didn’t they serve Phoenix before?) if they add this, I think Spirit will be pretty healthy here.
Wow Air: If the route is a success, (How wouldn’t it?) this route should be daily.
I think British Airways or Norwegian will come with time, but I think we will have to wait longer.
I’m certain there will be some suprises in here and there too. Frontier and JetBlue could expand.
I also still believe that one of the ME3 could enter DTW, but also not for a few years. Lastly, it would be very nice if Delta would stop cutting so many regional routes from Detroit, it seems that an average of two routes are disappearing every year.



The question is not whether low cost service from Detroit to Europe will be successful the question is will WOW Air even be around in two years. We would have been far better with Icelandair serving the route even if it was only with a 737. 3 Weekly on DY from DTW-LGW is also surly doable.

You're kidding, right?
WOW Air is pretty stable, much more so than, say, Norwegian.



WOW Air is spread pretty thin right now. Remember last year when every flight was departing two hours late from KEF not a good sign for a stable carrier. They had to wait for the Christmas holiday to recalibrate every thing.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:29 am

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:


The question is not whether low cost service from Detroit to Europe will be successful the question is will WOW Air even be around in two years. We would have been far better with Icelandair serving the route even if it was only with a 737. 3 Weekly on DY from DTW-LGW is also surly doable.

You're kidding, right?
WOW Air is pretty stable, much more so than, say, Norwegian.



WOW Air is spread pretty thin right now. Remember last year when every flight was departing two hours late from KEF not a good sign for a stable carrier. They had to wait for the Christmas holiday to recalibrate every thing.

It's a sign of an LCC having rapid growth and using textbook ULCC fleet planning. Spirit goes through this crap all the time.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:46 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
You're kidding, right?
WOW Air is pretty stable, much more so than, say, Norwegian.



WOW Air is spread pretty thin right now. Remember last year when every flight was departing two hours late from KEF not a good sign for a stable carrier. They had to wait for the Christmas holiday to recalibrate every thing.

It's a sign of an LCC having rapid growth and using textbook ULCC fleet planning. Spirit goes through this crap all the time.
WOW is perfect for DTW because of its similarity to the spirit model, because the Spirit model works in Detroit, now give international travel a shot with that model, I bet it’ll work out great.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:28 am

BenflysDTW wrote:
Here’s what I would like to see in Detroit by 2020 and I would like to be realistic:
Delta: Just add SJC!
Spirit: Make Boston, Seattle, San Diego, and Oakland year-round. Add Nashville, Austin, and possibly Phoenix. (Didn’t they serve Phoenix before?) if they add this, I think Spirit will be pretty healthy here.
Wow Air: If the route is a success, (How wouldn’t it?) this route should be daily.
I think British Airways or Norwegian will come with time, but I think we will have to wait longer.
I’m certain there will be some suprises in here and there too. Frontier and JetBlue could expand.
I also still believe that one of the ME3 could enter DTW, but also not for a few years. Lastly, it would be very nice if Delta would stop cutting so many regional routes from Detroit, it seems that an average of two routes are disappearing every year.
I think SJC is around the corner for DL, it's DTW's largest unserved market at roughly 150 passengers daily each way, which essentially translates to 75 pax each way, plenty to for a daily 737-800 filled with connections, there'd have to be some minor adjustments in MSP's morning departure though if DL want's to connect people in Detroit from the East. I also want to see DL get into ELP on a daily A319, ELP runs an average of 100 passengers a day, year round and it's fueled by auto traffic. I think a daily A319 can easily be done, throw some connections in there with the high yield auto traffic than there ya go. SJC and ELP would be my domestic priorities for DL. Spirit's going to grow in the Detroit market, there's no if, and, but or maybe about that. I still think there is more room for July adds and that's probably where we could see BDL. I don't know why NK doesn't get into PHX, eventually I definitely see it but I was expecting it with the SAN/PDX adds which by the way are pretty significant. At least DTW's WW service is year round too, it'll give them an idea about demand. WW keeps adding some important connection destinations which will help a little. BA will come back eventually, give it some time, there's untapped markets that need a TATL flight that BA could take total advantage of, I'd say expect BA by 2025. F9 easily could've added AUS and TPA in recent expansions, so those are holes. B6 will eventually do MCO and JFK, that's fluent. EK is the best bet for an ME carrier at DTW, it only makes the most sense, it offers the connections DTW needs to fulfill flying to the ME and India.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 1550
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:37 am

flymco753 wrote:
BenflysDTW wrote:
Here’s what I would like to see in Detroit by 2020 and I would like to be realistic:
Delta: Just add SJC!
Spirit: Make Boston, Seattle, San Diego, and Oakland year-round. Add Nashville, Austin, and possibly Phoenix. (Didn’t they serve Phoenix before?) if they add this, I think Spirit will be pretty healthy here.
Wow Air: If the route is a success, (How wouldn’t it?) this route should be daily.
I think British Airways or Norwegian will come with time, but I think we will have to wait longer.
I’m certain there will be some suprises in here and there too. Frontier and JetBlue could expand.
I also still believe that one of the ME3 could enter DTW, but also not for a few years. Lastly, it would be very nice if Delta would stop cutting so many regional routes from Detroit, it seems that an average of two routes are disappearing every year.
I think SJC is around the corner for DL, it's DTW's largest unserved market at roughly 150 passengers daily each way, which essentially translates to 75 pax each way, plenty to for a daily 737-800 filled with connections, there'd have to be some minor adjustments in MSP's morning departure though if DL want's to connect people in Detroit from the East. I also want to see DL get into ELP on a daily A319, ELP runs an average of 100 passengers a day, year round and it's fueled by auto traffic. I think a daily A319 can easily be done, throw some connections in there with the high yield auto traffic than there ya go. SJC and ELP would be my domestic priorities for DL. Spirit's going to grow in the Detroit market, there's no if, and, but or maybe about that. I still think there is more room for July adds and that's probably where we could see BDL. I don't know why NK doesn't get into PHX, eventually I definitely see it but I was expecting it with the SAN/PDX adds which by the way are pretty significant. At least DTW's WW service is year round too, it'll give them an idea about demand. WW keeps adding some important connection destinations which will help a little. BA will come back eventually, give it some time, there's untapped markets that need a TATL flight that BA could take total advantage of, I'd say expect BA by 2025. F9 easily could've added AUS and TPA in recent expansions, so those are holes. B6 will eventually do MCO and JFK, that's fluent. EK is the best bet for an ME carrier at DTW, it only makes the most sense, it offers the connections DTW needs to fulfill flying to the ME and India.


I've been saying it forever now but I could see EK getting some 789s alongside the 78X and sending them to DTW.
 
mict
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:19 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:50 am

Edit: ........ Outdated info sorry
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:59 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
BenflysDTW wrote:
Here’s what I would like to see in Detroit by 2020 and I would like to be realistic:
Delta: Just add SJC!
Spirit: Make Boston, Seattle, San Diego, and Oakland year-round. Add Nashville, Austin, and possibly Phoenix. (Didn’t they serve Phoenix before?) if they add this, I think Spirit will be pretty healthy here.
Wow Air: If the route is a success, (How wouldn’t it?) this route should be daily.
I think British Airways or Norwegian will come with time, but I think we will have to wait longer.
I’m certain there will be some suprises in here and there too. Frontier and JetBlue could expand.
I also still believe that one of the ME3 could enter DTW, but also not for a few years. Lastly, it would be very nice if Delta would stop cutting so many regional routes from Detroit, it seems that an average of two routes are disappearing every year.
I think SJC is around the corner for DL, it's DTW's largest unserved market at roughly 150 passengers daily each way, which essentially translates to 75 pax each way, plenty to for a daily 737-800 filled with connections, there'd have to be some minor adjustments in MSP's morning departure though if DL want's to connect people in Detroit from the East. I also want to see DL get into ELP on a daily A319, ELP runs an average of 100 passengers a day, year round and it's fueled by auto traffic. I think a daily A319 can easily be done, throw some connections in there with the high yield auto traffic than there ya go. SJC and ELP would be my domestic priorities for DL. Spirit's going to grow in the Detroit market, there's no if, and, but or maybe about that. I still think there is more room for July adds and that's probably where we could see BDL. I don't know why NK doesn't get into PHX, eventually I definitely see it but I was expecting it with the SAN/PDX adds which by the way are pretty significant. At least DTW's WW service is year round too, it'll give them an idea about demand. WW keeps adding some important connection destinations which will help a little. BA will come back eventually, give it some time, there's untapped markets that need a TATL flight that BA could take total advantage of, I'd say expect BA by 2025. F9 easily could've added AUS and TPA in recent expansions, so those are holes. B6 will eventually do MCO and JFK, that's fluent. EK is the best bet for an ME carrier at DTW, it only makes the most sense, it offers the connections DTW needs to fulfill flying to the ME and India.


I've been saying it forever now but I could see EK getting some 789s alongside the 78X and sending them to DTW.



I find it very disturbing that the airport can pull this route off with the amount of traffic that flows between India and the USA and the amount of people carries between DTW and FLL/BOS to make an EK connection. But I've said this before I think the window of opportunity has been closed for DTW to land an ME3 carrier.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion 2017

Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:09 pm

klm617 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I think SJC is around the corner for DL, it's DTW's largest unserved market at roughly 150 passengers daily each way, which essentially translates to 75 pax each way, plenty to for a daily 737-800 filled with connections, there'd have to be some minor adjustments in MSP's morning departure though if DL want's to connect people in Detroit from the East. I also want to see DL get into ELP on a daily A319, ELP runs an average of 100 passengers a day, year round and it's fueled by auto traffic. I think a daily A319 can easily be done, throw some connections in there with the high yield auto traffic than there ya go. SJC and ELP would be my domestic priorities for DL. Spirit's going to grow in the Detroit market, there's no if, and, but or maybe about that. I still think there is more room for July adds and that's probably where we could see BDL. I don't know why NK doesn't get into PHX, eventually I definitely see it but I was expecting it with the SAN/PDX adds which by the way are pretty significant. At least DTW's WW service is year round too, it'll give them an idea about demand. WW keeps adding some important connection destinations which will help a little. BA will come back eventually, give it some time, there's untapped markets that need a TATL flight that BA could take total advantage of, I'd say expect BA by 2025. F9 easily could've added AUS and TPA in recent expansions, so those are holes. B6 will eventually do MCO and JFK, that's fluent. EK is the best bet for an ME carrier at DTW, it only makes the most sense, it offers the connections DTW needs to fulfill flying to the ME and India.


I've been saying it forever now but I could see EK getting some 789s alongside the 78X and sending them to DTW.



I find it very disturbing that the airport can pull this route off with the amount of traffic that flows between India and the USA and the amount of people carries between DTW and FLL/BOS to make an EK connection. But I've said this before I think the window of opportunity has been closed for DTW to land an ME3 carrier.
Not at all, actually DTW is the next logical option for ME expansion, whether DL likes it or not because it’s a market that DL can’t serve unless of course DL expands rapidly into DEL, BOM, etc. which they’ll never do. EK is most likely, it’s doable but the 777-300ER is too much plane for that route since another carrier already voids the west Middle East.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...

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