If there is anyone from the WCAA that follows this thread sharpen your pencils here is a very important article you need to read https://www.independent.ie/business/iri ... 68794.html . Detroit has been on Dublin's wish list for a while. Remember the squeaky wheel gets the grease I hope you guys are exerting maximum effort to be one of the 10 cities EI adds

^I can bet PIT will be one of them due to the insane amount of $ they offer to airlines to start service..

flymco753 wrote:

^I can bet PIT will be one of them due to the insane amount of $ they offer to airlines to start service..

^^^^^^^

flymco753 wrote:

^I can bet PIT will be one of them due to the insane amount of $ they offer to airlines to start service..

But at some point that isn't going to matter when they can't sell seats because the market is over saturated.

klm617 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

^I can bet PIT will be one of them due to the insane amount of $ they offer to airlines to start service..

But at some point that isn't going to matter when they can't sell seats because the market is over saturated.

EI will probably be successful, someone else isn’t going to make it and I feel like DL isn’t going to make it on PIT-CDG in the long run, but EI going to PIT also kind of shoots the foot of them getting BA.

ROA airport is asking DL to restore the ROA-DTW route. I'd say this would be a good CRJ-700 route for GoJet or Skywest. Remember ROA was discontinued in 2014. http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/Roano ... 45283.html

COS is looking for DTW flights too, perhaps this could work 3x weekly on F9? http://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/02/co ... r-numbers/

YNG is also looking at DTW, probably a SkyWest EAS route. http://wksu.org/post/youngstown-tries-a ... r#stream/0

Irrelevant

flymco753 wrote:

ROA airport is asking DL to restore the ROA-DTW route. I'd say this would be a good CRJ-700 route for GoJet or Skywest. Remember ROA was discontinued in 2014. http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/Roano ... 45283.html

COS is looking for DTW flights too, perhaps this could work 3x weekly on F9? http://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/02/co ... r-numbers/

YNG is also looking at DTW, probably a SkyWest EAS route. http://wksu.org/post/youngstown-tries-a ... r#stream/0

This is pretty good information but Delta doesn't really care about what airports want service to Detroit they are only interested in their net gain. DUB and MAN have both requested a Detroit link for years but nothing ever materializes. I think the airports in these cities and the WCAA need to get together if these airports are really serious about those links and come up with the incentive to make it happen

klm617 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

ROA airport is asking DL to restore the ROA-DTW route. I'd say this would be a good CRJ-700 route for GoJet or Skywest. Remember ROA was discontinued in 2014. http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/Roano ... 45283.html

COS is looking for DTW flights too, perhaps this could work 3x weekly on F9? http://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/02/co ... r-numbers/

YNG is also looking at DTW, probably a SkyWest EAS route. http://wksu.org/post/youngstown-tries-a ... r#stream/0

This is pretty good information but Delta doesn't really care about what airports want service to Detroit they are only interested in their net gain. DUB and MAN have both requested a Detroit link for years but nothing ever materializes. I think the airports in these cities and the WCAA need to get together if these airports are really serious about those links and come up with the incentive to make it happen

We respect your love of DTW as well as your opinion of DL and Wayne County. Please provide links to where DUB and MAN are requesting DTW service.

globalcabotage wrote:

klm617 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

ROA airport is asking DL to restore the ROA-DTW route. I'd say this would be a good CRJ-700 route for GoJet or Skywest. Remember ROA was discontinued in 2014. http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/Roano ... 45283.html

COS is looking for DTW flights too, perhaps this could work 3x weekly on F9? http://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/02/co ... r-numbers/

YNG is also looking at DTW, probably a SkyWest EAS route. http://wksu.org/post/youngstown-tries-a ... r#stream/0

This is pretty good information but Delta doesn't really care about what airports want service to Detroit they are only interested in their net gain. DUB and MAN have both requested a Detroit link for years but nothing ever materializes. I think the airports in these cities and the WCAA need to get together if these airports are really serious about those links and come up with the incentive to make it happen

We respect your love of DTW as well as your opinion of DL and Wayne County. Please provide links to where DUB and MAN are requesting DTW service.

http://www.therouteshop.com/profiles/dublin-airport/ there had also been a time where MAN had a page on this site but it seems to be gone now but DTW was on ity's list

klm617 wrote:

globalcabotage wrote:

klm617 wrote:

This is pretty good information but Delta doesn't really care about what airports want service to Detroit they are only interested in their net gain. DUB and MAN have both requested a Detroit link for years but nothing ever materializes. I think the airports in these cities and the WCAA need to get together if these airports are really serious about those links and come up with the incentive to make it happen

We respect your love of DTW as well as your opinion of DL and Wayne County. Please provide links to where DUB and MAN are requesting DTW service.

http://www.therouteshop.com/profiles/dublin-airport/ there had also been a time where MAN had a page on this site but it seems to be gone now but DTW was on ity's list

That link is merely a list of 39 "unserved routes"; it says nothing about requesting those routes, or making any effort to interest airlines in serving those routes.

Any of those cities might be potential destinations, but to claim they have "requested a Detroit link for years" is disingenuous at best... and an outright falsehood (that is the polite term) at worst.

Yeah, klm, this is super, super, super flimsy. Of course airports want as many international routes they can get.

To provide compelling evidence, I'd like to see a report from some business group in Ireland or the UK that contains specific data about the economic links between DUB/MAN and DTW. Paired with public O&D data, you could probably build up an argument from those pieces. That would take deliberate effort though, which is harder than complaining.

With WN closing FNT, DTW gained nothing and lost a BWI frequency.

I just looked at WOW's schedule from DTW and some key markets have been added, so far you can connect to AMS, BCN, SXF, BRU, CPH, DUB, DEI, FRA, LGW, STN, CDG, ARN and TLV.

flymco753 wrote:

With WN closing FNT, DTW gained nothing and lost a BWI frequency.

It's not surprising. As discussed many times, DTW has never been a strong market for WN; our business market has largely shunned it and NK has scooped up much of the leisure market.

On the plus side, WN's will be operating a 737 MAX on DTW/PHX.

compensateme wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

With WN closing FNT, DTW gained nothing and lost a BWI frequency.

It's not surprising. As discussed many times, DTW has never been a strong market for WN; our business market has largely shunned it and NK has scooped up much of the leisure market.

On the plus side, WN's will be operating a 737 MAX on DTW/PHX.

As far as FNT goes where WN was not successful was understanding that the FNT market was basically to Florida something Airtran understood. Had WN kept the FNT-ATL flights giving FNT passengers more options to Florida they might have had a better success rate as Aitran did but when you have a choice who wants to fly to BWI or ORD when going to Florida when Delta can take you there directly. Wonder how long it will be now before Delta replaces it's mainline with RJs now that they are basically the only kid on the block.

klm617 wrote:

compensateme wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

With WN closing FNT, DTW gained nothing and lost a BWI frequency.

It's not surprising. As discussed many times, DTW has never been a strong market for WN; our business market has largely shunned it and NK has scooped up much of the leisure market.

On the plus side, WN's will be operating a 737 MAX on DTW/PHX.

As far as FNT goes where WN was not successful was understanding that the FNT market was basically to Florida something Airtran understood. Had WN kept the FNT-ATL flights giving FNT passengers more options to Florida they might have had a better success rate as Aitran did but when you have a choice who wants to fly to BWI or ORD when going to Florida when Delta can take you there directly. Wonder how long it will be now before Delta replaces it's mainline with RJs now that they are basically the only kid on the block.

DL will probably end MSP and just do ATL on CRJ-7/900’s.

flymco753 wrote:

DL will probably end MSP and just do ATL on CRJ-7/900’s.

I doubt they would discontinue FNT-MSP. It just seems like it would be an odd routing to get pax to the PacNW and Midwest. But I guess crazier things have happened.

klm617 wrote:

As far as FNT goes where WN was not successful was understanding that the FNT market was basically to Florida something Airtran understood. Had WN kept the FNT-ATL flights giving FNT passengers more options to Florida they might have had a better success rate as Aitran did but when you have a choice who wants to fly to BWI or ORD when going to Florida when Delta can take you there directly. Wonder how long it will be now before Delta replaces it's mainline with RJs now that they are basically the only kid on the block.

WN perfectly understood the FNT market. WN just operates a different business than FL did -- it has higher costs and needs to operate larger equipment to spread those costs out. It lacks the auxiliary revenue stream from baggage, seat (including "business" class) and change fees that FL enjoyed. WN initially tried to appease FNT's leisure market by maintaining daily service to MCO & TPA but the services were unsuccessful. Perhaps if WN charged for baggage, seat & change fees it would've succeeded, but WN stood by its business model. Bottom line: WN's not going to turn a profit flying FNT leisure traffic. I doubt FL would've, either, if it were still around.

lavalampluva wrote:

I doubt they would discontinue FNT-MSP. It just seems like it would be an odd routing to get pax to the PacNW and Midwest. But I guess crazier things have happened.

DL operates 3 daily MD-88 year-round to ATL. There's generally one, two or three 50-seat CRJs to MSP, depending on the season. Can't really compare the two.

ATL has taken over as DL's largest connecting hub from the Northeast to points Northwest, so if MSP is dropped, I wouldn't consider it strange.

compensateme wrote:

ATL has taken over as DL's largest connecting hub from the Northeast to points Northwest, so if MSP is dropped, I wouldn't consider it strange.

Oh I believe you. It is amazing the schedule routings you get when booking DL flights. It's almost to the point where they will route pax flying SEA-LAX via ATL. But all kidding aside those 2 RJ flights to MSP run almost full, so I don't think DL would kill it just because it wants to route pax via ATL. But if the numbers were to drop, then I can see it happening.

lavalampluva wrote:

compensateme wrote:

ATL has taken over as DL's largest connecting hub from the Northeast to points Northwest, so if MSP is dropped, I wouldn't consider it strange.

Oh I believe you. It is amazing the schedule routings you get when booking DL flights. It's almost to the point where they will route pax flying SEA-LAX via ATL. But all kidding aside those 2 RJ flights to MSP run almost full, so I don't think DL would kill it just because it wants to route pax via ATL. But if the numbers were to drop, then I can see it happening.

Looking at T-100 it appears the only reason FNT has DL to MSP is because of Los Angeles, Phoenix and Vegas.

lavalampluva wrote:

Oh I believe you. It is amazing the schedule routings you get when booking DL flights. It's almost to the point where they will route pax flying SEA-LAX via ATL. But all kidding aside those 2 RJ flights to MSP run almost full, so I don't think DL would kill it just because it wants to route pax via ATL. But if the numbers were to drop, then I can see it happening.

The market's going to shrink; FNT's nearly 20-year reign having Michigan's lowest average fares will inevitably end. FNT estimates that roughly half its traffic is local - the rest drive in search of lower fares. That traffic will eventually return to its home airport (or GRR, or DTW). Some FNT-area passengers will choose DTW (or GRR) for lower fares.

If there's enough business traffic willing to pay a premium to fly from FNT on a 50-seater to MSP, then the service will stay. But ultimately, I'd place my bets on DL shrinking to 3x-4x 717/319/CS100 to ATL.

I am somewhat surprised that Delta hasn't responded to F9 on ATL/DTW-ISP. I've long thought ISP was a market that would make sense for DL to be in; there's no nonstop service to the Midwest and it would round out their NYC coverage; something like 3x CR2/CR7s to DTW and a CR9 to ATL.

GSP psgr wrote:

I am somewhat surprised that Delta hasn't responded to F9 on ATL/DTW-ISP. I've long thought ISP was a market that would make sense for DL to be in; there's no nonstop service to the Midwest and it would round out their NYC coverage; something like 3x CR2/CR7s to DTW and a CR9 to ATL.

Could happen one day, probably 4x 717 to ATL and 2x CR7 to DTW.

lavalampluva wrote:

compensateme wrote:

ATL has taken over as DL's largest connecting hub from the Northeast to points Northwest, so if MSP is dropped, I wouldn't consider it strange.

Oh I believe you. It is amazing the schedule routings you get when booking DL flights. It's almost to the point where they will route pax flying SEA-LAX via ATL. But all kidding aside those 2 RJ flights to MSP run almost full, so I don't think DL would kill it just because it wants to route pax via ATL. But if the numbers were to drop, then I can see it happening.

All slanted at connections at ATL rather than Detroit. Thank you for confirming my theory that the DL system always favors a connection over ATL than any where else. I'll be damned if I ever book a flight from PVD to SEA and be routed over ATL and anyone that buys into that logic to simply put it is crazy.

compensateme wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

Oh I believe you. It is amazing the schedule routings you get when booking DL flights. It's almost to the point where they will route pax flying SEA-LAX via ATL. But all kidding aside those 2 RJ flights to MSP run almost full, so I don't think DL would kill it just because it wants to route pax via ATL. But if the numbers were to drop, then I can see it happening.

The market's going to shrink; FNT's nearly 20-year reign having Michigan's lowest average fares will inevitably end. FNT estimates that roughly half its traffic is local - the rest drive in search of lower fares. That traffic will eventually return to its home airport (or GRR, or DTW). Some FNT-area passengers will choose DTW (or GRR) for lower fares.

If there's enough business traffic willing to pay a premium to fly from FNT on a 50-seater to MSP, then the service will stay. But ultimately, I'd place my bets on DL shrinking to 3x-4x 717/319/CS100 to ATL.

The market is artificially been shrunk when DL ended DTW-FNT because that ended connections to many cities which forced passengers in the Flint area to either switch carriers or drive to Detroit which many chose to drive to Detroit for a nonstop flight. I guarantee you if DL still ran DTW-FNT passengers number would greatly expand at Flint or bring back the Florida service that NW always operated from there

klm617 wrote:

As far as FNT goes where WN was not successful was understanding that the FNT market was basically to Florida something Airtran understood. Had WN kept the FNT-ATL flights giving FNT passengers more options to Florida they might have had a better success rate as Aitran did but when you have a choice who wants to fly to BWI or ORD when going to Florida when Delta can take you there directly. Wonder how long it will be now before Delta replaces it's mainline with RJs now that they are basically the only kid on the block.

Why do you say you hate going through ATL, then bemoan WN's end of connections through ATL? I don't know if you even read what you write...

jordanh wrote:

klm617 wrote:

As far as FNT goes where WN was not successful was understanding that the FNT market was basically to Florida something Airtran understood. Had WN kept the FNT-ATL flights giving FNT passengers more options to Florida they might have had a better success rate as Aitran did but when you have a choice who wants to fly to BWI or ORD when going to Florida when Delta can take you there directly. Wonder how long it will be now before Delta replaces it's mainline with RJs now that they are basically the only kid on the block.

Why do you say you hate going through ATL, then bemoan WN's end of connections through ATL? I don't know if you even read what you write...

I don't mind the airport what I mind is having to change their in the Delta environment the operation is not very customer friendly it has a liking to herding cattle which is not very conducive to a pleasant environment. As far as WN I think they would have done better connecting FNT to ATL than what they did. Seems like when WN took over Airtran the gave Delta a lot of relief in Atlanta but that's just my thought.

klm617 wrote:

jordanh wrote:

klm617 wrote:

As far as FNT goes where WN was not successful was understanding that the FNT market was basically to Florida something Airtran understood. Had WN kept the FNT-ATL flights giving FNT passengers more options to Florida they might have had a better success rate as Aitran did but when you have a choice who wants to fly to BWI or ORD when going to Florida when Delta can take you there directly. Wonder how long it will be now before Delta replaces it's mainline with RJs now that they are basically the only kid on the block.

Why do you say you hate going through ATL, then bemoan WN's end of connections through ATL? I don't know if you even read what you write...

I don't mind the airport what I mind is having to change their in the Delta environment the operation is not very customer friendly it has a liking to herding cattle which is not very conducive to a pleasant environment. As far as WN I think they would have done better connecting FNT to ATL than what they did. Seems like when WN took over Airtran the gave Delta a lot of relief in Atlanta but that's just my thought.

You never cease to amaze. DL gives a perfectly good connecting experience at ATL, much better than most hubs I've connected at (JFK w/ DL, EWR w/ CO and UA, ORD w/ UA pre- and post-merger, FRA w/ LH, CDG w/ AF). Simply put, ATL on Delta isn't nearly as s***ty as you make it out to be.

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:

klm617 wrote:

jordanh wrote:

Why do you say you hate going through ATL, then bemoan WN's end of connections through ATL? I don't know if you even read what you write...

I don't mind the airport what I mind is having to change their in the Delta environment the operation is not very customer friendly it has a liking to herding cattle which is not very conducive to a pleasant environment. As far as WN I think they would have done better connecting FNT to ATL than what they did. Seems like when WN took over Airtran the gave Delta a lot of relief in Atlanta but that's just my thought.

You never cease to amaze. DL gives a perfectly good connecting experience at ATL, much better than most hubs I've connected at (JFK w/ DL, EWR w/ CO and UA, ORD w/ UA pre- and post-merger, FRA w/ LH, CDG w/ AF). Simply put, ATL on Delta isn't nearly as s***ty as you make it out to be.

LOL AMS, DTW are way better choices and as I'm a Delta flyer Atlanta is AWFUL. Out of all the Delta hubs I avoid CDG and Atlanta at all coast because there are equally bad to connect through I've done AA at CLT and that is even better. It amazed me that on a Friday night between 5 and 7 pm about 3 weeks ago DTW was a ghost town and all I could envision was the crowds at ATL trampling themselves trying to get to their connection before Delta gave their seat away. You can connect in Atlanta all day long if you like for me it's unacceptable to have to fight those crowds just to make my connection

klm617 wrote:

It amazed me that on a Friday night between 5 and 7 pm about 3 weeks ago DTW was a ghost town and all I could envision was the crowds at ATL trampling themselves trying to get to their connection before Delta gave their seat away.

klm, you're as transparent as air, and you're not fooling anyone. admit it—this is actually how you wish DTW was. you wish it was DL's slaughterhouse hub, with all the features that you complain about ATL having. you're like a little kid who insults the girl on the playground that he's actually crushing on super hard. just come out and say that you wish DTW was ATL. just tell the truth about what you truly desire!

I just hate how all these HUGE airports solely rely on the car. If our country actually had more trains going to our airports, (and make sure that they are reliable) then maybe some of our airports will be better placed by Skytrax. Just look at DTW. Beautiful McNamera terminal, big windows, high cielings, and indoor tram. But the moment you walk outside, there’s no restaurants, only a small coffee shop by domestic baggage claim. Our ground transportation system is pathetic.

NK wouldn’t be doing 4x daily to MCO if it weren’t for DL, they wouldn’t do 4x RSW either, NK is in Detroit to compete and win against DL and Spirit’s continued expansion shows they’re beating Delta on high leisure routes. Hell Spirit added OAK sand it was quickly upgraded to an A321 and will probably go year round, NK is sucessful at DTW thanks to DL.

Mods, can you make a Part 6 and lock this one please?

LAX is getting another flight flight to LAX next summer; 7 daily on DL.

I meant DTW is getting a another flight to LAX...

BenflysDTW wrote:

I meant DTW is getting a another flight to LAX...

An additional 739, I feel bad for the people who are going to have to load these -900's.

The 717 to JAX didn't last long, it goes right back to a damn CRJ after maybe 2 months of service.

flymco753 wrote:

The 717 to JAX didn't last long, it goes right back to a damn CRJ after maybe 2 months of service.

Must have been stealing to many connection passengers from Atlanta. That's ridiculous NW operated 3 DC9 flights a day on the route

klm617 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

The 717 to JAX didn't last long, it goes right back to a damn CRJ after maybe 2 months of service.

Must have been stealing to many connection passengers from Atlanta. That's ridiculous NW operated 3 DC9 flights a day on the route

...and NW was going bankrupt. You just don't get it, do you?

BenflysDTW wrote:

I meant DTW is getting a another flight to LAX...

It operated this past summer, but is being expanded to the late winter/spring schedule. An increase in frequency but not service, as the 757/753 are being pulled from the route.

jordanh wrote:

...and NW was going bankrupt. You just don't get it, do you?

Source? Or do you like making things up?

compensateme wrote:

jordanh wrote:

...and NW was going bankrupt. You just don't get it, do you?

Source? Or do you like making things up?

They declared bankruptcy on September 15th, 2005. Unless that was a fraudulent filing, that would be plenty of evidence.

jordanh wrote:

They declared bankruptcy on September 15th, 2005. Unless that was a fraudulent filing, that would be plenty of evidence.

Nope, they emerged in 2007. You were explicit that they were GOING into (another) bankruptcy.

Try again.

(And you might be too young to remember, but DL declared bankruptcy the same day as NW in 2007.)

compensateme wrote:

jordanh wrote:

They declared bankruptcy on September 15th, 2005. Unless that was a fraudulent filing, that would be plenty of evidence.

Nope, they emerged in 2007. You were explicit that they were GOING into (another) bankruptcy.
Try again.
(And you might be too young to remember, but DL declared bankruptcy the same day as NW in 2007.)

Huh??? I know English isn't my first language, but I simply stated that, at the time of their height in DTW, they were operating in a manner that was leading them to bankruptcy.

You have created your own timeline; maybe you can argue with yourself.

p.s.... I suspect I am much older than you. No need to start personal attacks.

jubguy3 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

Oh I believe you. It is amazing the schedule routings you get when booking DL flights. It's almost to the point where they will route pax flying SEA-LAX via ATL. But all kidding aside those 2 RJ flights to MSP run almost full, so I don't think DL would kill it just because it wants to route pax via ATL. But if the numbers were to drop, then I can see it happening.

All slanted at connections at ATL rather than Detroit. Thank you for confirming my theory that the DL system always favors a connection over ATL than any where else. I'll be damned if I ever book a flight from PVD to SEA and be routed over ATL and anyone that buys into that logic to simply put it is crazy.

I literally want to ban you only for the reason that literally every single post you've made is about how Daddy Delta doesn't give Detroit the respect it deserves, DTW is not a global megahub, why hasn't wayne county started construction on Detroit-Al Maktoum yet, etc etc etc

How does it feel that KLM is gone?

DL, Wayne County, and A.net have it in for DTW according to this forum. If this forum had its way, DTW would be ATL / BOS / DFW / EWR / IAH / JFK / LAX / MIA / ORD / PHL / SFO, etc. all rolled up into one with ORD being an RJ spoke to the world.

The DTW fan club does not live in reality. If it can’t go to DTW, it can’t happen.

Read the crap that comes out of this thread. The posters are safe in their parents basement while the rest of us live in the real world.

We need a part 6 thread, this one is too disorganized, and it’s on page 30, time for a new slate.

Please keep this thread on topic. There's no reason to debate the meaning of the word "fact". Just discuss DTW aviation without all of the personal attacks and snide commentary.

On a side note, this thread will get a new thread at the end of the year. All of our rolling threads have moved towards a set schedule for renewal, so this thread will be reset on a yearly basis.

✈️ atcsundevil

I think there's a lot to be said about the relationship between DTW and MSP. Unlike AA and UA, who have hubs in ORD, Delta has two Midwest hubs, which constitute its 2nd and 3rd busiest hubs.
I think (without solid facts) that the two have somewhat cannibalized each other for flights, but that overall the split Midwest hub is good for everyone
1. Delta is not dependent on one airport. ORD, when the banks of flights come in, becomes a s***hole. UA's dependence on Newark in the East basically shafts its ops. Delta's two hubs are flexible, in that they alleviate runway traffic and lessen the dependence on a single city's weather. That last one is super-important in the land of lake-effect winds.
2. Two pax bases. Detroit and the Twin Cities are each formidable (although Detroit is a bit past its prime). With both of their pax bases, Delta has a one-two punch.
3. Neither airport gets cramped. Again, consider ORD (s***fest of doom) or LAX (where profitable airlines go to die). Now look at Delta's more pleasant duo in the Midwest.
The reduced crowding and delays are better for pax too, for obvious reasons.

Although neither market ends up über competitive like CHI, LA, NYC, I say they're not much worse off.

According to AA, 2 of the 6 PHL flights will become an A319 in the tail end of February. 2 MD-80's will only touch the property a day, 1 to DFW and 1 to ORD, overall there's 1 extra daily flights due to PHX becoming 4x and a shift of one DFW flight to PHX, I think now that F9 is gone AA won't cut PHX down as much as they did over the summer.

I bet DL knocked LHR down to just 1x daily in April as a last opportunity to drive up the yield before WW's big arrival. My family in Detroit will meet me at DTW to continue on with WW to LGW, I'm very excited to use this new service.