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kavok
Posts: 1509
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:02 am

jordanh wrote:
kavok wrote:
jordanh wrote:
Between 2010 and 2016, Atlanta Metropolitan Area grew 9.5%
Between 2010 and 2016, Minneapolis Metropolitan Area grew 6.0%
Between 2010 and 2016, Detroit Metropolitan Area grew 0.0%
That is quite a contrast, too.
http://www.startribune.com/twin-cities- ... 417874533/

The problem with your data is that you used BOTH Minneapolis and St. Paul numbers in your MSP figures, instead of just using Minneapolis figures and excluding the St. Paul numbers. Minneapolis is the major city of the Metro, not St. Paul. So if you are going to compare Detroit to Minneapolis, you have to exclude St.Paul numbers also.

What? Maybe my English isn't as good as I thought. Minneapolis and St. Paul are in the same Metro area - and we are talking about Metro areas.All of the examples are for Metro areas, not for any single city.

That is why it is called "MSP". When we were considering more flights to the USA, we look at the Metro area, not just one city. If you limit the Detroit area to just Detroit, I am sure it fares much worse.


No, I am confused now.

Are we talking data about the major city of the Metro (as in Detroit/Minneapolis)? Or are we talking about also including other nearby cities that don't have their own commercial service airport (Ann Arbor/St. Paul)?

The data you provided is inconsistent. The data needs to be either for just the major city, or the major city + surrounding cities that use the airport. Otherwise you can't have an apples to apples comparison.
 
jordanh
Posts: 340
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:39 am

kavok wrote:
jordanh wrote:
kavok wrote:
The problem with your data is that you used BOTH Minneapolis and St. Paul numbers in your MSP figures, instead of just using Minneapolis figures and excluding the St. Paul numbers. Minneapolis is the major city of the Metro, not St. Paul. So if you are going to compare Detroit to Minneapolis, you have to exclude St.Paul numbers also.

What? Maybe my English isn't as good as I thought. Minneapolis and St. Paul are in the same Metro area - and we are talking about Metro areas.All of the examples are for Metro areas, not for any single city.
That is why it is called "MSP". When we were considering more flights to the USA, we look at the Metro area, not just one city. If you limit the Detroit area to just Detroit, I am sure it fares much worse.

No, I am confused now.
Are we talking data about the major city of the Metro (as in Detroit/Minneapolis)? Or are we talking about also including other nearby cities that don't have their own commercial service airport (Ann Arbor/St. Paul)?
The data you provided is inconsistent. The data needs to be either for just the major city, or the major city + surrounding cities that use the airport. Otherwise you can't have an apples to apples comparison.

The U.S. Government Census Department counts the Metropolitan Areas. I didn't see which outlying towns and cities were included, but I think most Americans probably would know what those might be. Here is the original source of the data:

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tab ... l?src=bkmk
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:45 am

kavok wrote:
jordanh wrote:
kavok wrote:
The problem with your data is that you used BOTH Minneapolis and St. Paul numbers in your MSP figures, instead of just using Minneapolis figures and excluding the St. Paul numbers. Minneapolis is the major city of the Metro, not St. Paul. So if you are going to compare Detroit to Minneapolis, you have to exclude St.Paul numbers also.

What? Maybe my English isn't as good as I thought. Minneapolis and St. Paul are in the same Metro area - and we are talking about Metro areas.All of the examples are for Metro areas, not for any single city.

That is why it is called "MSP". When we were considering more flights to the USA, we look at the Metro area, not just one city. If you limit the Detroit area to just Detroit, I am sure it fares much worse.


No, I am confused now.

Are we talking data about the major city of the Metro (as in Detroit/Minneapolis)? Or are we talking about also including other nearby cities that don't have their own commercial service airport (Ann Arbor/St. Paul)?

The data you provided is inconsistent. The data needs to be either for just the major city, or the major city + surrounding cities that use the airport. Otherwise you can't have an apples to apples comparison.

Minneapolis Metropolitan Area (both MSA and CSA) includes St. Paul. He just referred to by the name of bigger Minneapolis.
Note that within Detroit CSA, which includes Ann Arbor, there is at least one other airport with scheduled service (FNT), so we must consider growth there when examining DTW.
 
kavok
Posts: 1509
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:26 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
kavok wrote:
jordanh wrote:
What? Maybe my English isn't as good as I thought. Minneapolis and St. Paul are in the same Metro area - and we are talking about Metro areas.All of the examples are for Metro areas, not for any single city.

That is why it is called "MSP". When we were considering more flights to the USA, we look at the Metro area, not just one city. If you limit the Detroit area to just Detroit, I am sure it fares much worse.


No, I am confused now.

Are we talking data about the major city of the Metro (as in Detroit/Minneapolis)? Or are we talking about also including other nearby cities that don't have their own commercial service airport (Ann Arbor/St. Paul)?

The data you provided is inconsistent. The data needs to be either for just the major city, or the major city + surrounding cities that use the airport. Otherwise you can't have an apples to apples comparison.

Minneapolis Metropolitan Area (both MSA and CSA) includes St. Paul. He just referred to by the name of bigger Minneapolis.
Note that within Detroit CSA, which includes Ann Arbor, there is at least one other airport with scheduled service (FNT), so we must consider growth there when examining DTW.


So basically, it is idiotic to use MSA figures when discussing DTW? As MSA figures don't include surrounding cities like Ann Arbor who use DTW?
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:08 pm

kavok wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
kavok wrote:

No, I am confused now.

Are we talking data about the major city of the Metro (as in Detroit/Minneapolis)? Or are we talking about also including other nearby cities that don't have their own commercial service airport (Ann Arbor/St. Paul)?

The data you provided is inconsistent. The data needs to be either for just the major city, or the major city + surrounding cities that use the airport. Otherwise you can't have an apples to apples comparison.

Minneapolis Metropolitan Area (both MSA and CSA) includes St. Paul. He just referred to by the name of bigger Minneapolis.
Note that within Detroit CSA, which includes Ann Arbor, there is at least one other airport with scheduled service (FNT), so we must consider growth there when examining DTW.


So basically, it is idiotic to use MSA figures when discussing DTW? As MSA figures don't include surrounding cities like Ann Arbor who use DTW?

Neither MSA nor CSA give the full picture. The wisest, I'd say, is to use CSA figures while considering surrounding airports within the CSA.
 
klakzky123
Posts: 699
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:21 pm

kavok wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
kavok wrote:

No, I am confused now.

Are we talking data about the major city of the Metro (as in Detroit/Minneapolis)? Or are we talking about also including other nearby cities that don't have their own commercial service airport (Ann Arbor/St. Paul)?

The data you provided is inconsistent. The data needs to be either for just the major city, or the major city + surrounding cities that use the airport. Otherwise you can't have an apples to apples comparison.

Minneapolis Metropolitan Area (both MSA and CSA) includes St. Paul. He just referred to by the name of bigger Minneapolis.
Note that within Detroit CSA, which includes Ann Arbor, there is at least one other airport with scheduled service (FNT), so we must consider growth there when examining DTW.


So basically, it is idiotic to use MSA figures when discussing DTW? As MSA figures don't include surrounding cities like Ann Arbor who use DTW?


These are all arbitrary boundaries created by census statisticians. They're estimates used to measure growth in different regions of the country. For example, MSP's MSA and CSA dont' include Rochester which was given its own MSA. However, most people in Rochester will drive the hour to fly out of MSP. Using Census figures excludes them but at the end of the day its what we have to work with.

But you can't for a second pretend that DTW (MSA or CSA)'s growth is even average relative to the rest of American metro areas. The DTW CSA (so including Ann Arbor) hasn't had any growth either. MSP itself is going to have long term growth issues (even if its fine currently) because birth rates and growth in areas that normally provide local immigration (the Dakotas, Iowa, Wisconsin, etc..) are falling. Population growth in the Detroit metro is a major concern and will continue to be.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 3631
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:22 pm

kavok wrote:
jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
For the past year they have been many ATL adds.
ATL-ICN
ATL-PVG
ATL-HAV
ATL-PTP and FTF with skyteam partner AF
ATL to Mexico at least 6 adds via DL and skyteam partner AM
The Detroit adds.
DTW-SNA
DTW-MEX via AM
Quite a contrast wouldn't you say.
.

Between 2010 and 2016, Atlanta Metropolitan Area grew 9.5%

Between 2010 and 2016, Minneapolis Metropolitan Area grew 6.0%

Between 2010 and 2016, Detroit Metropolitan Area grew 0.0%

That is quite a contrast, too.

http://www.startribune.com/twin-cities- ... 417874533/


The problem with your data is that you used BOTH Minneapolis and St. Paul numbers in your MSP figures, instead of just using Minneapolis figures and excluding the St. Paul numbers.

Minneapolis is the major city of the Metro, not St. Paul. So if you are going to compare Detroit to Minneapolis, you have to exclude St.Paul numbers also.


That makes no sense. So do you exclude Fort Worth from DFW statistics or exclude Durham from RDU stats?

Jeremy
 
GSP psgr
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:12 pm

flymco753 wrote:
If Amazon decided to choose Detroit as their 2nd HQ, which at this moment sounds extremely promising, what effect will it have on air travel in the region? Will Delta win the corporate contracts? Or will this prompt more flag carriers?

Some of my colleagues keep me pretty informed about the happenings in Detroit and I want to bring them up, this is mostly related to Amazon;

-I got a text from a colleague this morning that the Metro Detroit Area will receive a 3rd center on top of the currently planned Romulus and Livonia centers.
-Key Detroit business, universities and political people are involved, yes this includes Dan Gilbert.
-In the past few months several CEO's announced hub operations in Detroit, which speaks that the room is there for growth.
-An "Atlanta style" train system could connect DTW with several points to Detroit and use an old train station near Downtown.

I would love to see it down here in Central Florida but we're no longer accepting applications, can't shove people in even tighter quarters.


Out of curiosity, if Amazon were to select Detroit, what's the best parcel of land to put it on? For example, Chicago's talking up the Old Post Office site, Toronto has the Unilever Don Valley Site, in Pittsburgh it's the 28 acres Mellon Arena used to sit on or the old LTV Hazelwood Brownfield.
 
jordanh
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:08 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
If Amazon decided to choose Detroit as their 2nd HQ, which at this moment sounds extremely promising, what effect will it have on air travel in the region? Will Delta win the corporate contracts? Or will this prompt more flag carriers?
Some of my colleagues keep me pretty informed about the happenings in Detroit and I want to bring them up, this is mostly related to Amazon;
-I got a text from a colleague this morning that the Metro Detroit Area will receive a 3rd center on top of the currently planned Romulus and Livonia centers.
-Key Detroit business, universities and political people are involved, yes this includes Dan Gilbert.
-In the past few months several CEO's announced hub operations in Detroit, which speaks that the room is there for growth.
-An "Atlanta style" train system could connect DTW with several points to Detroit and use an old train station near Downtown.
I would love to see it down here in Central Florida but we're no longer accepting applications, can't shove people in even tighter quarters.

Out of curiosity, if Amazon were to select Detroit, what's the best parcel of land to put it on? For example, Chicago's talking up the Old Post Office site, Toronto has the Unilever Don Valley Site, in Pittsburgh it's the 28 acres Mellon Arena used to sit on or the old LTV Hazelwood Brownfield.

Please save and restore the beautiful old Packard manufacturing plant!
 
dtw9
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:18 pm

Detroit has the upper hand as far as available land. The Packard plant, the Hudsons site, which ground will soon break on Detroit's tallest building and also the land where Joe Louis arena sits today but will soon be vacant as demo on that building starts next week. Detroit also has the David Stot building currently under rehab as well as the Book Tower. So again Detroit would have many many options available if it were to win this contest
 
lavalampluva
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Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:48 pm

dtw9 wrote:
Detroit has the upper hand as far as available land. The Packard plant, the Hudsons site, which ground will soon break on Detroit's tallest building and also the land where Joe Louis arena sits today but will soon be vacant as demo on that building starts next week. Detroit also has the David Stot building currently under rehab as well as the Book Tower. So again Detroit would have many many options available if it were to win this contest

Detroit is littered with land what once had vacant factories which I'm sure the city wants gone. I'm sure land is cheap too. But it'll have to go through environmental testing and cleanup. I'm sure the quality of the soil is horrible.
 
SpartanFlyZone
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:17 am

lavalampluva wrote:
dtw9 wrote:
Detroit has the upper hand as far as available land. The Packard plant, the Hudsons site, which ground will soon break on Detroit's tallest building and also the land where Joe Louis arena sits today but will soon be vacant as demo on that building starts next week. Detroit also has the David Stot building currently under rehab as well as the Book Tower. So again Detroit would have many many options available if it were to win this contest

Detroit is littered with land what once had vacant factories which I'm sure the city wants gone. I'm sure land is cheap too. But it'll have to go through environmental testing and cleanup. I'm sure the quality of the soil is horrible.


While Detroit has plenty of vacant land, it is a bit misleading. There is limited availability of land in the downtown central business district for development. Many sites are either under development or in the process of developing. Outside of the central business district there is plenty of vacant land, but it is either neighborhoods (no commercial development and not zoned for commercial) or old factory sites, which are not ideal for commercial office space particularity when you look at locations vis-à-vis other office space. Every commercial property acquisition always includes environmental due diligence. Whether any remediation is necessary is another story. It is true that a lot of commercial and industrial property in Detroit has some level of contamination, the scope of remediation to avoid legal liability is the paramount issue. Remediation can be as limited as adding a brum or capping the property. Environmental issues are not solely a Detroit-centric problem. Any previously developed land can have environmental issues, including from existing structures or high-rises.

There are pros/cons for a lot of the locations mentioned. Having worked on site selections for very large projects, by the time of any public discussion, there is usually a site selected or locked-up. The public bidding is usually is just a means to get the preferred location to up the economic development incentives.

Detroit can check the box on a lot of lists. It would be a nice, high-profile add to the business community. Either way, metro Detroit is still in a good spot and the automotive industry (and the huge corresponding R&D) will continue to drive the economy.
 
jordanh
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:36 am

SpartanFlyZone wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
dtw9 wrote:
Detroit has the upper hand as far as available land. The Packard plant, the Hudsons site, which ground will soon break on Detroit's tallest building and also the land where Joe Louis arena sits today but will soon be vacant as demo on that building starts next week. Detroit also has the David Stot building currently under rehab as well as the Book Tower. So again Detroit would have many many options available if it were to win this contest

Detroit is littered with land what once had vacant factories which I'm sure the city wants gone. I'm sure land is cheap too. But it'll have to go through environmental testing and cleanup. I'm sure the quality of the soil is horrible.

While Detroit has plenty of vacant land, it is a bit misleading. There is limited availability of land in the downtown central business district for development. Many sites are either under development or in the process of developing. Outside of the central business district there is plenty of vacant land, but it is either neighborhoods (no commercial development and not zoned for commercial) or old factory sites, which are not ideal for commercial office space particularity when you look at locations vis-à-vis other office space. Every commercial property acquisition always includes environmental due diligence. Whether any remediation is necessary is another story. It is true that a lot of commercial and industrial property in Detroit has some level of contamination, the scope of remediation to avoid legal liability is the paramount issue. Remediation can be as limited as adding a brum or capping the property. Environmental issues are not solely a Detroit-centric problem. Any previously developed land can have environmental issues, including from existing structures or high-rises.
There are pros/cons for a lot of the locations mentioned. Having worked on site selections for very large projects, by the time of any public discussion, there is usually a site selected or locked-up. The public bidding is usually is just a means to get the preferred location to up the economic development incentives.
Detroit can check the box on a lot of lists. It would be a nice, high-profile add to the business community. Either way, metro Detroit is still in a good spot and the automotive industry (and the huge corresponding R&D) will continue to drive the economy.

I don't think an Amazon facility would be considered like typical commercial office space. I am sure it will be more of a combination of distribution center and general offices, without the need to be downtown in a Central Business District. Actually, downtown space might be a disadvantage.

If Detroit is a serious contender, I hope that Fernando Palazuelo will get in touch with Amazon and offer a serious proposal. He has renovated more than 100 buildings in Spain and Peru, and he has big ideas for the old Packard plant. Having Amazon would change some of those plans, but it would surely make it all economically viable. It would also seem to fit their needs (40 acres) and would give them a chance to "save" a landmark and make it a usable space as well. They would get many reps for that..
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:47 am

jordanh wrote:
SpartanFlyZone wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Detroit is littered with land what once had vacant factories which I'm sure the city wants gone. I'm sure land is cheap too. But it'll have to go through environmental testing and cleanup. I'm sure the quality of the soil is horrible.

While Detroit has plenty of vacant land, it is a bit misleading. There is limited availability of land in the downtown central business district for development. Many sites are either under development or in the process of developing. Outside of the central business district there is plenty of vacant land, but it is either neighborhoods (no commercial development and not zoned for commercial) or old factory sites, which are not ideal for commercial office space particularity when you look at locations vis-à-vis other office space. Every commercial property acquisition always includes environmental due diligence. Whether any remediation is necessary is another story. It is true that a lot of commercial and industrial property in Detroit has some level of contamination, the scope of remediation to avoid legal liability is the paramount issue. Remediation can be as limited as adding a brum or capping the property. Environmental issues are not solely a Detroit-centric problem. Any previously developed land can have environmental issues, including from existing structures or high-rises.
There are pros/cons for a lot of the locations mentioned. Having worked on site selections for very large projects, by the time of any public discussion, there is usually a site selected or locked-up. The public bidding is usually is just a means to get the preferred location to up the economic development incentives.
Detroit can check the box on a lot of lists. It would be a nice, high-profile add to the business community. Either way, metro Detroit is still in a good spot and the automotive industry (and the huge corresponding R&D) will continue to drive the economy.

I don't think an Amazon facility would be considered like typical commercial office space. I am sure it will be more of a combination of distribution center and general offices, without the need to be downtown in a Central Business District. Actually, downtown space might be a disadvantage.

If Detroit is a serious contender, I hope that Fernando Palazuelo will get in touch with Amazon and offer a serious proposal. He has renovated more than 100 buildings in Spain and Peru, and he has big ideas for the old Packard plant. Having Amazon would change some of those plans, but it would surely make it all economically viable. It would also seem to fit their needs (40 acres) and would give them a chance to "save" a landmark and make it a usable space as well. They would get many reps for that..

I don't know if Amazon would be into a renovated factory site or a modern glass tower setup. Their HQ in Seattle is pretty modern. My guess is it'll come down to which city/state gives them the best financial incentives, not the site itself.
 
johns624
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:26 pm

The old Packard plant is in one of the worst areas of Detroit. Its only good point is that it is very near to I-94.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:47 pm

I am wondering if Detroit's close proximity to the Amazon CVG hub will carry any weight in the decision. As far as mass transit goes can't Southeast Michigan put together a plan of what they intend to do as far as infrastructure (Public Transit) and grow that along with Amazon's requirements after all look at all the public funded stadiums we built in Detroit and the investment would bring back a hefty return for the tax payers investment and even then could be tailored more to the liking of what Amazon needs and requires to land this deal. Amazon is getting your foot in the door who knows what other things may follow if Detroit lands this. But this I can say we have the right mayor in city hall to get this done.
 
jordanh
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:41 pm

johns624 wrote:
The old Packard plant is in one of the worst areas of Detroit. Its only good point is that it is very near to I-94.

I understand it is in a very run-down area. In this case, that could be an advantage: there should be a lot more land around it that could be bought rather inexpensively.
 
reasonable
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:24 pm

This conversation is getting to a place that I've been advocating for a while now: the link between DTW and the emergence of a different economic landscape. Without Amazon, Detroit has been growing impressively, but mostly within the same sectors as its always led: manufacturing, finance, medical services. That growth has been substantial, and has led to the region being healthier than it has in decades. In parallel, the city's emergence from bankruptcy has created an investment environment that has tapped the post-recession energy of a modest influx of new residents to 2 or 3 core areas in the city. To some extent (more than other cities, for sure), that energy reflects a view of urbanism that in the American context is quite progressive, embracing de-industrialization, the sublimation of abandoned neighborhoods into unserviced areas, anti-gentrification narratives, and compared to cities like Chicago, much more collaboration across race and class in incubating small business and defining community.

All of that, to date, will account for modest growth in passenger numbers and incremental new air service (Delta's MUC route is the perfect example of this, I think). Eventually, the dull people of metro Detroit who still think it's 1991—or earlier—will get with the program, vote for transit, contribute to regional collaboration, and maybe even book a flight somewhere other than Florida. Then, DTW's air service would be pretty steady with great routes and passenger numbers a bit higher than they are now.

BUT then HQ2 comes along. Whether Detroit wins this or not, the die is cast. The possibility alone is forcing residents and leaders around SE Michigan not just to admit, but to recognize the impact of, certain symptoms of a bigger disease: 1. oh dang, we need transit; 2. we need to cooperate; 3. detroit isn't evil; 4. we have a race problem; 5. the future of autos is not in mill jobs; 6. we're behind; 7. sprawl is liability, not growth; 8. we need to provide opportunity without forcing people away. When I say the die is cast, I mean that the pursuit of HQ2 is a turning point in how Detroit as a region thinks about its current state and potential future. That might be enough to change the game in a way that would eventually be reflected in DTW air service—like the above scenario, perhaps even more passengers as business continues to thrive; perhaps more incremental new routes to serve emerging markets—a return for BA, for example, but also Milan, San Jose, Guangzhou, Warsaw, or India. Maybe. Maybe not.

If Detroit wins HQ2, then good night. klm and all the other man-children fan boys who stake their identity to an airport like a child in Superman pajamas will get their wish. It will be so intense they might explode, or they might experience an ecstasy unknown to all others as they sublimate into a singularity of being and vaporize into a disparate chaos of atoms like the exhaust from a jet engine on a big obese 380 taking off from DTW, full speed to Paris, or Tokyo, or some other once and future new world capital waiting in the wings. Farewell klm! Farewell!!
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:44 pm

After doing more homework on DTW-SJC, I think we have a verdict. PDEW to SJC for all quarters per DOT in 2016 was 38,000 one way. SNA, which was just added had averaged 40,000 so it's inevitable that SJC would be the next market DL will want to tackle. I think the reason the 73W is on SNA is because of payload optimization, stage length, what have you. It's being upgraded to a 757 next summer, strong bookings perhaps? Anyway, I don't see why that 73W can't be shifted to start SJC at first. With connections I think it's the right move for DL, because even than it could be upgauged to something larger like a 739 or 757. My verdict is, SJC will be the next long domestic route DL could add. If SNA is profitable, and flights continue to leave full, than SJC is closer than we think.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:05 pm

Building on my SJC forecast, I've included some hypothetical connections and flight times that DL would use if SJC is added.

In Q1, Q2, Q3, and Q4 of 2016, there is a year round average of ~100 one way, ~200 combined, that's O&D on both sides. The 73H (-800) has 160 seats, so in O&D alone, you fill roughly 63% of the aircraft. If DL adjusted connections from BOS, MHT, PVD, BDL, PWM, ALB, SYR, ROC, BUF, PIT, PHL, EWR, SWF, HPN, CLE, and CAK to split SJC flow through DTW and ATL, that should account for the remaining 60 that would be needed to get at least 90% of the aircraft full as it departs DTW.

A good flight schedule would be a 9:30am departure from DTW and arrive in SJC ~ 11:30am PST. The aircraft can turn at 12:45pm PST and arrive in Detroit ~ 8:45pm allowing pax to make the 9:30 bank for east coast/midwest connections.

If I want to get into Network Planning with an airline in the future I have to get better at this so I encourage comments and criticism.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:55 pm

DL's SNA service has been leaving Detroit, ever since it started with no more than 15 seats open, for September travel out west, I'd say that is pretty good, but as for it making a profit, there's no way to figure that out, you can only hope it's making money, because the flight's are leaving full.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:40 pm

So here is my question what makes CVG-SJC more viable than DTW-SJC in F9 eyes. Being I am pretty sure the market from DTW to SJC is bigger than CVG. I get ATL-SJC but CVG over DTW SMH.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:57 pm

klm617 wrote:
So here is my question what makes CVG-SJC more viable than DTW-SJC in F9 eyes. Being I am pretty sure the market from DTW to SJC is bigger than CVG. I get ATL-SJC but CVG over DTW SMH.


1.CVG is a focus city for F9, and can provide a few connections as well

2.F9 have bigger fish to fry in DTW (DTW-TPA to name one)

3.I believe the F9 SFO-CVG flight is being cut, to make room for SJC-CVG

4.DTW has NK, which is a much tougher animal than G4 in CVG
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:25 pm

flymco753 wrote:
DL's SNA service has been leaving Detroit, ever since it started with no more than 15 seats open, for September travel out west, I'd say that is pretty good, but as for it making a profit, there's no way to figure that out, you can only hope it's making money, because the flight's are leaving full.


Loads are guaranteed to be a success -- DL re-timed its other flights so that DTW is the only mid-morning departure and late morning/early afternoon return.

The opportunity cost of operating a flight from DTW in those departure times instead of ATL may prevail, however.

klm617 wrote:
So here is my question what makes CVG-SJC more viable than DTW-SJC in F9 eyes. Being I am pretty sure the market from DTW to SJC is bigger than CVG. I get ATL-SJC but CVG over DTW SMH.


A couple of things:
- NK operates DAILY seasonal DTW-OAK, which will begin in early April this year (six weeks earlier than last). F9's service replaces SFO and will operate 3x weekly -- no word on the seasonality yet, but I'd be surprised if it operated year-round.
- F9 is a weak carrier at DTW compared to CVG, mainly because of NK's dominance at the former.

I'd rather have NK than F9 -- at least NK is consistent with its service. F9 literally adds a bunch of random routes, drops most, adds more...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:46 am

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
DL's SNA service has been leaving Detroit, ever since it started with no more than 15 seats open, for September travel out west, I'd say that is pretty good, but as for it making a profit, there's no way to figure that out, you can only hope it's making money, because the flight's are leaving full.


Loads are guaranteed to be a success -- DL re-timed its other flights so that DTW is the only mid-morning departure and late morning/early afternoon return.

The opportunity cost of operating a flight from DTW in those departure times instead of ATL may prevail, however.

klm617 wrote:
So here is my question what makes CVG-SJC more viable than DTW-SJC in F9 eyes. Being I am pretty sure the market from DTW to SJC is bigger than CVG. I get ATL-SJC but CVG over DTW SMH.


A couple of things:
- NK operates DAILY seasonal DTW-OAK, which will begin in early April this year (six weeks earlier than last). F9's service replaces SFO and will operate 3x weekly -- no word on the seasonality yet, but I'd be surprised if it operated year-round.
- F9 is a weak carrier at DTW compared to CVG, mainly because of NK's dominance at the former.

I'd rather have NK than F9 -- at least NK is consistent with its service. F9 literally adds a bunch of random routes, drops most, adds more...



Makes sense now thank you for the explanation. I agree NK is a bit more consistent so a better option..
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:17 am

Maybe it's time for a Part 6 to this thread? Getting hard to scroll through this....
Simply because there are so many pages.
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:23 am

klm617 wrote:
Well we are kind of running out of time here does anyone expect anything new from Delta as far as summer 2018 goes ?

Would a change of aircraft from 77L to A359 on DTW-PVG be considered an upgauge or downgauge? Either way, that's my only prediction at the moment.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:50 pm

DTW is getting a 3rd CDG flight next summer, the most accurate flight times will be added on Saturday when the schedule change is released. What aircraft could this be on? 333? 332? 76W? 777/L? LAX will fly the 77L so I'd assume that would be the frame that could turn to PVG.
 
dtwpilot225
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:19 pm

We all want to see new destinations out of dtw but adding a 3rd dtw cdg is great, I for one didn't see anything being added for dtw in 2018 and seeing this made me happy
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:53 pm

flymco753 wrote:
DTW is getting a 3rd CDG flight next summer, the most accurate flight times will be added on Saturday when the schedule change is released


It's in the press release.

DL0096 03:50PM DTW CDG 06:00AM+1 NEW
DL0098 06:05PM DTW CDG 08:05AM+1 333
AF0377 08:45PM DTW CDG 10:40AM+1 777

DL0099 10:20AM CDG DTW 10:20AM 333
DL0099 01:10PM CDG DTW 04:10PM NEW
AF0378 03:30PM CDG DTW 06:20PM 777

Note the new flight number is the same as an incumbent flight, so it's likely the incumbent flight will see its number change.

As for equipment, I'll bet both DL-operated flights will ultimately operate either as 332 or 763.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:26 pm

compensateme wrote:
As for equipment, I'll bet both DL-operated flights will ultimately operate either as 332 or 763.
Thanks for posting that, didn't see the times were published. I would think it's safe to say 332 because NGO, GRU and AMS all still remain heavily 332, either way 2 332's and a 777 is quite a few seats. CDG is quickly approaching FRA in terms of O&D growth, I wouldn't be surprised to see CDG become DTW's #1 and pass AMS in terms of passenger traffic.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:12 am

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/unu ... ources-say

Appearently the soap dispensers at Midfield are being replaced because some um, bodily fluid was found in them...
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:22 pm

As expected, the new flight will be operated with a 763 while the incumbent flight is downgauged to a 332.

Summer 2018 vs 2017:
LHR: 332 plus 3 weekly 763 (was 10x763)
AMS: 332, 3x333 (3x332, 333)
CDG: 763, 332 (333)
FCO: 333 (unchanged)
MUC: 763 (unchanged)
FRA: 763 (332)

GRU: 3 weekly 332 (unchanged)
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:17 am

Here's to the crowd whining about DTW-LHR; their route just got FRA's A330. AMS, too, got an upgauged frequency.

The infamous Detroit duo can eat their words right about now.
 
BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:18 pm

There is an Delta 747 coming into DTW from Kuwait City DL 8821 N662US any idea why?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:22 pm

BenflysDTW wrote:
There is an Delta 747 coming into DTW from Kuwait City DL 8821 N662US any idea why?
Military charter
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:03 pm

Porter Airlines is adding new flights from YQG to MLB

http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/po ... 00433.html
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:53 am

Porter schedule from Windsor ON to Melbourne FL. Flights operated Saturday only from December to April and are around $460 round trip


11:55 AM – 2:50 PM
Windsor (YQG) – Melbourne (MLB)
Porter Airlines 759 · De Havilland-Bombardier Dash-8

4:00 PM – 7:00 PM
Melbourne (MLB) – Windsor (YQG)
Porter Airlines 760 · Economy Class · De Havilland-Bombardier Dash-8
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:00 am

I'm not supportive of YQG's growth simply because of the fact any service added to YQG could effect DTW's air service, there was a pretty big dip on MCO service when National added SFB-YQG, that was also before F9 added MCO. Now this new Porter flight could get DL to do a weekend winter seasonal deal on an -88 or 717 because if you can do YQG to MLB and do it twice a week to a smaller market than DL can do DTW at a larger market and on top of that, get connections without hurting MCO service.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:50 am

flymco753 wrote:
I'm not supportive of YQG's growth simply because of the fact any service added to YQG could effect DTW's air service, there was a pretty big dip on MCO service when National added SFB-YQG, that was also before F9 added MCO. Now this new Porter flight could get DL to do a weekend winter seasonal deal on an -88 or 717 because if you can do YQG to MLB and do it twice a week to a smaller market than DL can do DTW at a larger market and on top of that, get connections without hurting MCO service.

The connections that Delta needs are MOSTLY already available through ATL. Services overflying hubs tend to reflect a big O&D market, or some good long-haul connections. For the former, which Detroit residents really care about, YQG is just as good as DTW.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:07 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I'm not supportive of YQG's growth simply because of the fact any service added to YQG could effect DTW's air service, there was a pretty big dip on MCO service when National added SFB-YQG, that was also before F9 added MCO. Now this new Porter flight could get DL to do a weekend winter seasonal deal on an -88 or 717 because if you can do YQG to MLB and do it twice a week to a smaller market than DL can do DTW at a larger market and on top of that, get connections without hurting MCO service.

The connections that Delta needs are MOSTLY already available through ATL. Services overflying hubs tend to reflect a big O&D market, or some good long-haul connections. For the former, which Detroit residents really care about, YQG is just as good as DTW.
So? A weekend 717 could be done easily with connections from the Midwest and it won't kill ATL's service.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:28 am

flymco753 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I'm not supportive of YQG's growth simply because of the fact any service added to YQG could effect DTW's air service, there was a pretty big dip on MCO service when National added SFB-YQG, that was also before F9 added MCO. Now this new Porter flight could get DL to do a weekend winter seasonal deal on an -88 or 717 because if you can do YQG to MLB and do it twice a week to a smaller market than DL can do DTW at a larger market and on top of that, get connections without hurting MCO service.

The connections that Delta needs are MOSTLY already available through ATL. Services overflying hubs tend to reflect a big O&D market, or some good long-haul connections. For the former, which Detroit residents really care about, YQG is just as good as DTW.
So? A weekend 717 could be done easily with connections from the Midwest and it won't kill ATL's service.

Upper Midwest aside, you're talking backtrack.
Furthermore, you haven't explained why YQG isn't as good as DTW.
 
Seat1F
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:28 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I'm not supportive of YQG's growth simply because of the fact any service added to YQG could effect DTW's air service, there was a pretty big dip on MCO service when National added SFB-YQG, that was also before F9 added MCO. Now this new Porter flight could get DL to do a weekend winter seasonal deal on an -88 or 717 because if you can do YQG to MLB and do it twice a week to a smaller market than DL can do DTW at a larger market and on top of that, get connections without hurting MCO service.

The connections that Delta needs are MOSTLY already available through ATL. Services overflying hubs tend to reflect a big O&D market, or some good long-haul connections. For the former, which Detroit residents really care about, YQG is just as good as DTW.


Seriously? Detroit area residents are going to cross to Windsor (and clear Canadian immigration) to catch the new YQG flight to MLB (where they will then clear US immigration) on a Q400? Ain't gonna happen. That's just ridiculous.

I'm not suggesting that DTW-MLB service should be started by DL....just that one-stop via ATL or CLT is much better than a Q400 from YQG to MLB that involves two passes through immigration for a US resident.

Even for Canadian residents, who in their right mind would fly from Canada to Florida on a Q400? I predict these two new routes will fail.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:58 am

National Airlines' service from YQG-SFB was a total disaster, in spite of the free baggage allowance and free meals. Amazingly, Essex County residents thought it was more convenient to cross the border and transit through the DTW mega complex to fly directly into MCO than it was to fly nonstop from YQG into SFB. I predict the same fate for Porter -- while you might get a free Canadian beer and a bag of veggie chips, ultimately it'll be hard for Porter to compete with pricing and frequency out of DTW.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:07 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
The connections that Delta needs are MOSTLY already available through ATL. Services overflying hubs tend to reflect a big O&D market, or some good long-haul connections. For the former, which Detroit residents really care about, YQG is just as good as DTW.
So? A weekend 717 could be done easily with connections from the Midwest and it won't kill ATL's service.

Upper Midwest aside, you're talking backtrack.
Furthermore, you haven't explained why YQG isn't as good as DTW.
Because where DL can capture anything extra is brownie points for DL, why would someone want to cross the border just to travel to Detroit or come down to Florida? DTW is open to more people, more connections and more willingness to take the flight.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:28 am

flymco753 wrote:
Because where DL can capture anything extra is brownie points for DL, why would someone want to cross the border just to travel to Detroit or come down to Florida? DTW is open to more people, more connections and more willingness to take the flight.


There is no market DTW-MLB. NK served the market in the late 1990s/early 2000s, and it was one of the few markets NW didn't retaliate in. Even today, MLB has service only to ATL & CLT and has added "Orlando" into its name in hopes of attracting LCC service.

If DL were to add seasonal Saturday service to another Florida beach market, it'd be DAB. It's kinda surprising they haven't, really -- DTW is near the top of DAB's wish list and is one of the few markets eligible for an incentive package.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:50 am

compensateme wrote:
National Airlines' service from YQG-SFB was a total disaster, in spite of the free baggage allowance and free meals. Amazingly, Essex County residents thought it was more convenient to cross the border and transit through the DTW mega complex to fly directly into MCO than it was to fly nonstop from YQG into SFB. I predict the same fate for Porter -- while you might get a free Canadian beer and a bag of veggie chips, ultimately it'll be hard for Porter to compete with pricing and frequency out of DTW.


I think the problem with National was that the airline had no credibility and no one wanted to risk taking the chance that their Florida vacation would be ruined by the flights never happening like what happened with the YYT-SFB flights. I also think it would have been a whole different story if the flights went into MCO instead of SFB. Porter is a well established carrier in Canada and I have to assume they looked at where the most transfer passengers were coming in from to connect to their YTZ-MLB flights and YQG was up there so hence they added YQG-MLB. Sp great for YQG and lets face it your average everyday passenger doesn't care what plane they are on as long as they get from point A to point B at a great fare and on time. Lets face it most RJ flight are cramped and awful but yet millions fly on RJs everyday day.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:34 pm

klm617 wrote:
I think the problem with National was that the airline had no credibility and no one wanted to risk taking the chance that their Florida vacation would be ruined by the flights never happening like what happened with the YYT-SFB flights. I also think it would have been a whole different story if the flights went into MCO instead of SFB. Porter is a well established carrier in Canada and I have to assume they looked at where the most transfer passengers were coming in from to connect to their YTZ-MLB flights and YQG was up there so hence they added YQG-MLB. Sp great for YQG and lets face it your average everyday passenger doesn't care what plane they are on as long as they get from point A to point B at a great fare and on time. Lets face it most RJ flight are cramped and awful but yet millions fly on RJs everyday day.


The problems with National happened concurrently with its services. Most potential passengers would've shopped for their tickets months in advance (National wasn't targeting business travelers, nor did its schedule allow it to do such; most people planning week long vacations do so months in advance) so they wouldn't have been aware of problems that hadn't developed yet. And National, as well as YQG, heavily marketed the service. I agree name recognition and SFB were problems, but heck Porter is marketing MLB as "Orlando-area" (as does the airport). Ultimately, it's telling that people within Essex County choose to drive to either DTW or YYZ -- both mega airports and significantly more time consuming to navigate than YQG (and each incurring a long drive). You should be budgeting 90-minutes or so at DTW or YYZ to park your car (most people will park offsite), go through security and navigate the airport. At YQG, it takes less than 10 minutes from the time you enter the parking lot until the time you reach the gate. And there's free bottled water and coffee, too, a nice perk given DTW & YYZ will hit you for a few bucks.

Ultimately, I don't see Porter being successful, not when its lowest fare tops USD$500, including baggage and seating fees (and Porter can't sell many tickets for less if it hopes to turn a profit) - you can easily find a variety of flights to a variety of destinations on jets for less from DTW. Unless Porter is successful in attracting a ninche market that actually wants to vacation in Melbourne.
 
shoelessjoe
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:19 pm

I don't know of many people who drive to YYZ to fly to Florida as there is zero benefit. DTW captures the majority of the YQG-area originating traffic to Florida...and obviously connections to Florida are available via YYZ on AC. I'm not calling doom on PD however -- this IS a niche product and a niche market. We are not talking about National's B757 here -- we are talking about a small aircraft on a 1x weekly schedule. With the exception of some media interest at launch National's service was barely marketed -- I know numerous people in the Windsor area who were downright surprised to learn there was a n/s option to Florida when National was flying. PD is an entirely different product with an entirely different aircraft and marketing, etc. Additionally you have at least some PD FFs in the Windsor area. I was doubtful MLB would be successful from YTZ and it has been -- PD is taking a shot with an aircraft that probably has low utilization on the weekends when frequency is lower on the routes ex-YTZ...I will give it a chance to succeed before I call it a failure.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 5

Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:21 pm

shoelessjoe wrote:
I don't know of many people who drive to YYZ to fly to Florida as there is zero benefit. DTW captures the majority of the YQG-area originating traffic to Florida...and obviously connections to Florida are available via YYZ on AC. I'm not calling doom on PD however -- this IS a niche product and a niche market. We are not talking about National's B757 here -- we are talking about a small aircraft on a 1x weekly schedule. With the exception of some media interest at launch National's service was barely marketed -- I know numerous people in the Windsor area who were downright surprised to learn there was a n/s option to Florida when National was flying. PD is an entirely different product with an entirely different aircraft and marketing, etc. Additionally you have at least some PD FFs in the Windsor area. I was doubtful MLB would be successful from YTZ and it has been -- PD is taking a shot with an aircraft that probably has low utilization on the weekends when frequency is lower on the routes ex-YTZ...I will give it a chance to succeed before I call it a failure.


I put YYZ in there because YQG estimates that the majority of Essex County travels from YYZ -- it's estimated that more than half the market flies from YYZ, vs. about a third from DTW (and most of the rest from YQG). That said, I don't doubt that the split of Florida-bound traffic will favor DTW.

I'm not calling Porter's service a failure, but I have my doubts as to its success. Sure, it's only 70 (or less) seats, but Porter's clearly marketing the service as Orlando, and I ponder how many people think the convenience of traveling from YQG is worth the trade offs (tubroprop for 3+ hours, 90-minute drive to Disney/Universal, etc.) - especially given that on average, prices will be higher than traveling from DTW. Can't really compare YTZ to YQG because the former isn't in close proximity to a U.S. city with ample flights to Central Florida.

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