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KarelXWB
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Air Canada: CS300 will be an excellent performer

Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:27 pm

The CS300 are not only going to replace the Embraer 190s, the aircraft will enable Air Canada to make broader network changes.

During an interview with FlightGlobal at Toronto Pearson International airport on 9 February, Smith makes clear that Air Canada's plan calls for the CS300 to replace the E190.

"But that's assuming our network is static," he adds.

"This airplane is so good [that] we think it's going to want to go on every route in North America," Smith says of the CS300.

"The economics – it's got CASM rates that are equivalent to much larger airplanes. So it may enable us, or give us the opportunity, to rethink our bank structures, how our network is designed," he adds.


Article
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-434067/
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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nikeson13
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:48 pm

It will. See more non-YYZ routes to major cities, connecting YYZ with smaller secondary markets in the US, and a lot more. Currently, AC flies a bunch of E175s and CRJ700/900s a good distance across the border, watch some of those routes be up gauged. Plus, theres a current 20 frame difference between the E190 fleet (25) and the CS300 order (45+30 options), so we've got to see some more new routes. Maybe some more from secondary hubs? And a firmer establishment of YYZ as a connection gateway to Asia and Europe?
Nikolas
 
TransGlobalGold
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:08 pm

nikeson13 wrote:
It will. See more non-YYZ routes to major cities, connecting YYZ with smaller secondary markets in the US, and a lot more. Currently, AC flies a bunch of E175s and CRJ700/900s a good distance across the border, watch some of those routes be up gauged. Plus, theres a current 20 frame difference between the E190 fleet (25) and the CS300 order (45+30 options), so we've got to see some more new routes. Maybe some more from secondary hubs? And a firmer establishment of YYZ as a connection gateway to Asia and Europe?


They don't fly the CRJ-700. They fly the CRJ-705, which is basically a CRJ-900 with fewer seats, to meet scope clauses.
 
runway23
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:28 pm

nikeson13 wrote:
It will. See more non-YYZ routes to major cities, connecting YYZ with smaller secondary markets in the US, and a lot more. Currently, AC flies a bunch of E175s and CRJ700/900s a good distance across the border, watch some of those routes be up gauged. Plus, theres a current 20 frame difference between the E190 fleet (25) and the CS300 order (45+30 options), so we've got to see some more new routes. Maybe some more from secondary hubs? And a firmer establishment of YYZ as a connection gateway to Asia and Europe?


I'm not sure it will really be all about YYZ with this plane. The CS3 has the right size to make a number of routes work out of YUL or YVR that wouldn't work on 320s or 737s. I'd therefore guess the bulk will be based out of YUL/YVR and the remaining in YYZ to operate long and thin markets that wouldn't work on anything else.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:29 pm

I agree, I wouldn't be surprised if AC decides to take up some CS100 as well. The C-series can fly basically any route between Canada and the Northern South America. The opportunities are endless. Most of 319 routes can done by the C-series. I see routes to California,Texas and Florida out of YYZ as candidates for C-Series service.
 
Boeingphan
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:49 pm

The plane has some legs so anything is a possibility and I think this plane in the new livery is a match made for each other.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:11 pm

nikeson13 wrote:
Plus, theres a current 20 frame difference between the E190 fleet (25) and the CS300 order (45+30 options), so we've got to see some more new routes.

The CSeries is replacing the E190 and the A319 ... roughly 45 frames. (With a few extra). The 737s are replacing the A320s and A321s.

If any of the CSeries options are exercised, then that will certainly be expansion.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
yyztpa
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:30 am

TransGlobalGold wrote:
They don't fly the CRJ-700. They fly the CRJ-705, which is basically a CRJ-900 with fewer seats, to meet scope clauses.

705s are being certified to 900 standard as new order 900 come into fleet.
 
gatibosgru
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:00 am

This may be OT, but could someone explain to me how such an capable plane isn't selling? Sounds like BBD has been offering amazing discounts left and right, combined with the promised performance shouldn't it be a killer?
@mbl06
 
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nikeson13
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:46 am

TransGlobalGold wrote:
They don't fly the CRJ-700. They fly the CRJ-705, which is basically a CRJ-900 with fewer seats, to meet scope clauses.

Totally lapsed when I put -700, I knew they don't have any.

longhauler wrote:
The CSeries is replacing the E190 and the A319 ... roughly 45 frames. (With a few extra). The 737s are replacing the A320s and A321s.

If any of the CSeries options are exercised, then that will certainly be expansion.

Well to be exact, 43 frames, but yeah you're right there isn't much room. But going by the article, its promising that they'll take some, if not most, of their 30 options, and I based my thoughts around taking in some of those options.

runway23 wrote:
I'm not sure it will really be all about YYZ with this plane. The CS3 has the right size to make a number of routes work out of YUL or YVR that wouldn't work on 320s or 737s. I'd therefore guess the bulk will be based out of YUL/YVR and the remaining in YYZ to operate long and thin markets that wouldn't work on anything else.

Yeah I can see a lot of YUL and YVR (they've showed both more interest than usual lately), but maybe some thinner sun destinations and some airports in the US that have limited connecting options to Europe/Asia may work too from YYZ. But if I were them, yeah I'd go to YUL and YVR first, a bunch of untapped potential in both. The link specifically mentions YVR-BOS as a good possibility.
Nikolas
 
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RL777
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:55 am

Looking forward to seeing these around and out of YVR, will definitely be an upgrade over the E190s.
 
ninspeed
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:21 am

Their E190s are tired, but where are they going?
 
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 will be an excellent performer

Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:41 am

I can see YUL-SAN, PHX and SEA in the future with the CS300.
 
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:26 am

gatibosgru wrote:
This may be OT, but could someone explain to me how such an capable plane isn't selling? Sounds like BBD has been offering amazing discounts left and right, combined with the promised performance shouldn't it be a killer?


It had a slow start, but it has had a couple of big orders now. Air Canada and Delta are two large ones, then you have Swiss (Lufthansa) and airBaltic which are both sizeable. Then there are rumors of an IAG order. It's a brand new aircraft, smaller airlines may be wary of "unproven" technology while larger airlines with good in house tech can take bigger risks. There's no doubt this is a fantastic airplane, and I'm confident it will be successful.

I don't know if you meant the C-Series as a whole, or only the CS300. My answer is based on both CS100/CS300.
 
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OA940
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 will be an excellent performer

Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:34 am

Sooooooo true.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 will be an excellent performer

Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:43 pm

I hope the CSeries will to AC to turn their attention back to their large non-hubs that they've actually neglected/shrunk in, in recent years (i.e. YOW, YHZ, YWG and YEG). The CS3 opens up new route & increased existing route frequency possibilities from their focus cities too, not just their hubs.
 
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:50 am

JetBuddy wrote:
I don't know if you meant the C-Series as a whole, or only the CS300. My answer is based on both CS100/CS300.


Astute analysis overall, and a slightly off-topic question. Normally, shrinks don't sell well. The CS500, if launched will be a simple stretch of the CS300 - but will require further investment. What is your opinion of future CS100 sales, as is (no CS500 launched)? If launched, will the CS500 further add to the possibility of, or detract from future CS100 sales?
 
ahj2000
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:17 am

Rajahdhani wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I don't know if you meant the C-Series as a whole, or only the CS300. My answer is based on both CS100/CS300.


Astute analysis overall, and a slightly off-topic question. Normally, shrinks don't sell well. The CS500, if launched will be a simple stretch of the CS300 - but will require further investment. What is your opinion of future CS100 sales, as is (no CS500 launched)? If launched, will the CS500 further add to the possibility of, or detract from future CS100 sales?

My understanding is that the CS300 is the stretch, and thebCS100 is the base. The CS100 also doesn't have the same weight to revenue ratio the 736 did, for example. The CASM on both are ridiculously good for a/c their size.
So I don't really see the Cs100 having problems being the smallest except for maybe scope agreement issues.
-Andrés Juánez
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:17 am

Rajahdhani wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I don't know if you meant the C-Series as a whole, or only the CS300. My answer is based on both CS100/CS300.


Astute analysis overall, and a slightly off-topic question. Normally, shrinks don't sell well. The CS500, if launched will be a simple stretch of the CS300 - but will require further investment. What is your opinion of future CS100 sales, as is (no CS500 launched)? If launched, will the CS500 further add to the possibility of, or detract from future CS100 sales?


The CS300 is actually the base size, and the entire aircraft is built around this version. The CS100 is a shrink in that regard. Launching a new single aisle aircraft at apprx. 110-130 seats (CS100) and 130-160 seats (CS300) at a time when airlines are seeking larger and larger versions of the current single aisle models, may have seemed like a foolish idea to some - including me a few years ago. But personally I've changed my opinion on this, because Bombardier's design team must have seen the gap developing in this exact size market. The CS100 is a step up in size from the largest Embraer E-Jets, with limited competition in the market. The CS300 is a direct competitor to the Airbus A319neo and Boeing 737-7 MAX, but beats both of them hands down in operating economics. After all, it's designed to be optimal at this size with the latest tech available. Bombardier must have known both Airbus and Boeing would struggle to compete in this gap, and a new single aisle model from both of these manufacturers will most likely be a larger airplane.

I think we will see a CS500 eventually, but not until the order books for the current CS100 and CS300 are full with several years worth of production. A 150-180 seat CS500 should be technically possible as a stretch of the CS300, but I think Bombardier was smart not to go full head-on with Airbus and Boeing from the beginning.
 
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:30 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The CS100 is a step up in size from the largest Embraer E-Jets, with limited competition in the market.

The CS300 is a direct competitor to the Airbus A319neo and Boeing 737-7 MAX, but beats both of them hands down in operating economics. After all, it's designed to be optimal at this size with the latest tech available. Bombardier must have known both Airbus and Boeing would struggle to compete in this gap, and a new single aisle model from both of these manufacturers will most likely be a larger airplane. I think we will see a CS500 eventually, but not until the order books for the current CS100 and CS300 are full with several years worth of production. A 150-180 seat CS500 should be technically possible as a stretch of the CS300, but I think Bombardier was smart not to go full head-on with Airbus and Boeing from the beginning.


While I agree with the whole post, you've overwritten my logic, with that statement.

What kind of position would/should Bombardier be in before launching the CS500? Any milestones, key orders, or financial milestone they should cross first? I know that they have quite alot of work to do, and perhaps the CS500 would be a decent aircraft to bring out in a few years (as fuel rises, and global economic conditions improve). Later, better than sooner - I guess. I could be wrong though. What do you think?
 
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:24 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The CS100 is a step up in size from the largest Embraer E-Jets, with limited competition in the market.

The CS300 is a direct competitor to the Airbus A319neo and Boeing 737-7 MAX, but beats both of them hands down in operating economics. After all, it's designed to be optimal at this size with the latest tech available. Bombardier must have known both Airbus and Boeing would struggle to compete in this gap, and a new single aisle model from both of these manufacturers will most likely be a larger airplane. I think we will see a CS500 eventually, but not until the order books for the current CS100 and CS300 are full with several years worth of production. A 150-180 seat CS500 should be technically possible as a stretch of the CS300, but I think Bombardier was smart not to go full head-on with Airbus and Boeing from the beginning.


While I agree with the whole post, you've overwritten my logic, with that statement.

What kind of position would/should Bombardier be in before launching the CS500? Any milestones, key orders, or financial milestone they should cross first? I know that they have quite alot of work to do, and perhaps the CS500 would be a decent aircraft to bring out in a few years (as fuel rises, and global economic conditions improve). Later, better than sooner - I guess. I could be wrong though. What do you think?


It's too difficult for me to answer really, I don't have that much insight into their financial state other than that they're struggling as things are now. I believe they need to have secured C-Series orders for several years of production in order to finance more R&D for a possible stretch. They also need genuine interest in a stretch from multiple airlines. I think that can happen relatively soon after more CS100s and CS300s enter service, and airlines can themselves evaluate the performance of it. I think it's unlikely we'll see Bombardier announce a CS500 the next 2 years, but I wouldn't rule out within 5 years. As far as I know they're evaulating an engine upgrade for the CRJ and a stretch of the Q400 before we see a CS500. I'd love to see them announce it sooner than later though. I both believe and hope that the C-Series will be a very successful type for Bombardier.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:39 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
It's too difficult for me to answer really, I don't have that much insight into their financial state other than that they're struggling as things are now.


Admitting a limitation? Does not compute. If you do not know - lie to me! Haha, just kidding.

JetBuddy wrote:
I believe they need to have secured C-Series orders for several years of production in order to finance more R&D for a possible stretch. They also need genuine interest in a stretch from multiple airlines. I think that can happen relatively soon after more CS100s and CS300s enter service, and airlines can themselves evaluate the performance of it. I think it's unlikely we'll see Bombardier announce a CS500 the next 2 years, but I wouldn't rule out within 5 years. As far as I know they're evaulating an engine upgrade for the CRJ and a stretch of the Q400 before we see a CS500. I'd love to see them announce it sooner than later though. I both believe and hope that the C-Series will be a very successful type for Bombardier.


Again, fantastic insight. That's alot of work to do, to get there - but I do believe (and hope, just as you do) that it will be a fantastic and successful type for them! Based on the projects to do (the CRJ NEO and the Q-400 MAX-10) they do have alot to chew on until then. Do you see any major orders that might have been harmed, by not having the CS500 sooner, than later? My thinking is that, with airlines deferring frames in order to compensate for lower fuel, and lower yields - that not many would have come to the table, if they rushed it. Hopefully, with a few years to improve it further - the CS500 might be decent enough to keep up the pricing pressure on EADS and Boeing (just as the possibility of an A322 does for the MOM). I wish them a healthy share of the pie - and can't wait to see what the future holds.
 
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deltadawg
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:24 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The CS100 is a step up in size from the largest Embraer E-Jets, with limited competition in the market.

The CS300 is a direct competitor to the Airbus A319neo and Boeing 737-7 MAX, but beats both of them hands down in operating economics. After all, it's designed to be optimal at this size with the latest tech available. Bombardier must have known both Airbus and Boeing would struggle to compete in this gap, and a new single aisle model from both of these manufacturers will most likely be a larger airplane. I think we will see a CS500 eventually, but not until the order books for the current CS100 and CS300 are full with several years worth of production. A 150-180 seat CS500 should be technically possible as a stretch of the CS300, but I think Bombardier was smart not to go full head-on with Airbus and Boeing from the beginning.


While I agree with the whole post, you've overwritten my logic, with that statement.

What kind of position would/should Bombardier be in before launching the CS500? Any milestones, key orders, or financial milestone they should cross first? I know that they have quite alot of work to do, and perhaps the CS500 would be a decent aircraft to bring out in a few years (as fuel rises, and global economic conditions improve). Later, better than sooner - I guess. I could be wrong though. What do you think?


Very good observation.

Personally, I don't think we will see a CS500 until two things happen; 1) another large order to fill the order books for the CS100/300 (e.g. UA/LH/BA/AM/SN/B6 or the like with 50+ order) and 2) proven in service reliability and economics from one of the larger order owners (AC/DL/BT or LX) that decides to come back to BBD for the CS500 with a large launch order purely based off of the economics of the CS100/300. Most likely this will be DL. DL's large fleet of MadDogs will have to retire in the next 10-15 years and there will be a need for a replacement thus the CS500 need or they replace with more A320's and 737's. However, I will say that to this day I would prefer to fly the MD83's and 90's due to the seating. I like the 2x3 configuration. If DL could get a CS500 with similar seating capacity in the 150-160 range it would be an almost 1 for 1 exchange except the economics of the CS500 would be vastly superior one would believe.
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:43 pm

deltadawg wrote:
Personally, I don't think we will see a CS500 until two things happen; 1) another large order to fill the order books for the CS100/300 (e.g. UA/LH/BA/AM/SN/B6 or the like with 50+ order) and 2) proven in service reliability and economics from one of the larger order owners (AC/DL/BT or LX) that decides to come back to BBD for the CS500 with a large launch order purely based off of the economics of the CS100/300.


Well said. I guess I was being impatient to see a good thing take off. That said, there is a power to patience - and you're completely right - the data, the confidence, and the subsequent orders - will take time to mature.

deltadawg wrote:
Most likely this will be DL. DL's large fleet of MadDogs will have to retire in the next 10-15 years and there will be a need for a replacement thus the CS500 need or they replace with more A320's and 737's.


Those will be fun times indeed, because by then - quite alot of second-hand 737s and A320s will be on the market - enough to spoil the price premium Bombardier will need. Question though - you're timeline for their departure seems long to me. Low fuel, newer 717s and pretty new MDs mean that life is there - are there any obstacles (such as AA and their retirement of their MDs before 2018 - and pardon me on being ignorant of what exactly affected that decision and what the issue caused it) that would limit their lifespan at DL (so long as fuel prices are low)? I would not complain about seeing MD-90s in 2030! That said, what are the challenges ahead to a long life of service apart from fuel, as these aircraft will likely be fully paid off for, by now...

deltadawg wrote:
However, I will say that to this day I would prefer to fly the MD83's and 90's due to the seating. I like the 2x3 configuration. If DL could get a CS500 with similar seating capacity in the 150-160 range it would be an almost 1 for 1 exchange except the economics of the CS500 would be vastly superior one would believe.

Preach it! Haha! I'll take a 717 (and/or CSeries) over the 3X3 any day!
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 will be an excellent performer

Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:51 pm

When are they coming to AC
 
airnorth
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 will be an excellent performer

Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:37 pm

TheGeordielad wrote:
When are they coming to AC


The link in the first post of this thread says AC is expecting the 45 aircraft to be delivered starting in 2019, through 2022.
 
fbeaulie
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 wil be an excellent performer

Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:55 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The CS300 is actually the base size, and the entire aircraft is built around this version. The CS100 is a shrink in that regard. (...).


Bombardier's answer would be "Specifically optimized for the 100- to 150- market segment, the CS100 and CS300 family of aircraft are not stretched or shrunk versions of each other (...)"

http://news.commercialaircraft.bombardi ... wish-list/
 
bmacleod
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Re: Air Canada: CS300 will be an excellent performer

Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:23 pm

Seems like TATL will be a cakewalk for the CS300 - replacing the A319 on YYT-LHR.

We could soon see routes like YQM - LHR.
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