DaveFly
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:03 am

b6sea wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
DaveFly wrote:
Why is IAD named after John Foster Dulles? He was Eisenhower's Secretary of State, with no lasting legacy that I can recall. I know that airport names are a touchy subject, but this one really makes no sense to me. Any suggestions?


Perhaps you are looking at it from too distant a point. At the time the airport was planned and being built, Mr. Dulles was highly regarded as a staunch anti-communist and defender of freedom. He happened to die at the "right time" for his name to be available for the airport.

There are those who might, today, question the name for the Kennedy Center in Washington, or for many other commemorations.

A lot of places are named in the spirit of the moment, and not with a view toward the opinions of history. Dulles, along with hundreds of other persons, has been honored with a U.S. postage stamp. Today, a large percentage of the population would have difficulty recognizing many of those who have been so honored.


Reminds me of Senator Henry M. ("Scoop") Jackson here in Washington (state). His name is on quite a few schools and buildings and the Port of Seattle tried to rename SEA after him when he passed away. Didn't happen because Tacoma protested (I think rightly) at having their name taken out of the airport name.

However, nowadays I'm not sure you could name something after Scoop Jackson because he was notorious hawk on foreign policy and a Vietnam War supporter, as well as being credited as one of the founding fathers of neoconservatism, which would really drive the Democratic political establishment in Seattle insane despite the fact he and Senator Warren G. Magnuson were likely the most prolific Democratic senate duo in recent history. That said, I think most people are either too young (I suppose I would fall in that category) to know about Scoop Jackson or are transplants and don't care to know much about their adopted home, so the names are just names.


Even as Eastern New Yorkers, we always admired Scoop Jackson.
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:13 pm

Noreastshuttle wrote:
I'll still be rooting for Dulles success but it's going to still be uphill. National Airport is enjoying its city center presence and BWI is not giving up not letting up with its capital spending to maintain being the regions busiest with passenger boarding. I personally feel BWI is more Easy Come Easy Go than Dulles.


Firstly - that entire post was fascinatingly good. Thank you for the insight. Just to pick your brain, though - what are some of the challenges that IAD has ahead? Can you expand a little on the 'easy come, easy go' statement a little more? I mean - I could see how IAD has, perhaps - less traffic coming in and so would likely have more fight to keep a client, when contrasted against busy BWI that could 'take it, or leave it'. Overall, though - we know some of IAD's weaknesses (such as higher costs, and how that affects specific services) but what are some of BWI's?

Backing to your original point, and thank you to all of the others that very well demonstrated the traffic, and logistic challenges - BWI (and IAD) seem like much less a struggle now to get to (at least from the perspective of a tourist that loves the area). Arriving at DCA is stunningly simple - but now, BWI and IAD don't seem so far away anymore.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:24 pm

ScottB wrote:
YoungDon wrote:
Dulles will continue to grow - much of the growth in the area outside of the city is in the Western suburbs. The Silver Line will mostly benefit those in Fairfax County - not those in DC/Arlington. Luckily, that's a very large, affluent population to work with.


Recent demographic trends point in the opposite direction. Millennials and empty nesters have been staying in or moving back into cities and the Loudoun County real estate market has been difficult.


This is off-topic, but I am just fascinated. How are housing prices within the city? I can see the physical limitation of being 'boxed in' means that the city cannot grow - and thus pricing property inside rises. When I was there last year, I spoke with a few about the issue. A few long-time natives discussed gentrification (and I hope to not cause any controversy with that, so I apologize if it offends anyone), other spoke of building height restrictions, others often discussed how the 'history' was in the way (thus harder to move specific buildings et al). All in all - what are the prospects like for a young/young-ish people and their needs. I can see many making the trade-off, staying in the city and living (and paying for) the convenience. As a tourist, I payed less attention to how expensive things were. In Loudoun County, are things less expensive? So much so that it is an option for those that work in D.C.? Is there a decent comparison to any other real-world pairing? (Living in New Jersey, and commuting into Manhattan for work?)

Rajahdhani wrote:
In speaking to them, I came to realize - IAD's higher costs probably contributed into why BWI caters to greater LCC penetration. So, I can see - even if both IAD and DCA were united under the same management style, ultimately there not being as effective a control of the market, as is likely to be expected - as BWI's traffic and presence (with some overlap) could also provide some decent coverage to those wishing perhaps to increase their presence and not wanting to deal with that management team.


Actually, I think that BWI management was just more aggressive about working with carriers interested in serving the airport, and that paid off handsomely with WN's growth there, even if that meant the demise of the US hub there. IMO there has been a bit of complacency on the part of MWAA because they operate what have historically been the primary airports for Washington, D.C. -- and in the wake of that BWI grew from what had been really an afterthought to the region's busiest airport by passenger boardings. IAD's costs really weren't out-of-line until MWAA committed to some very expensive projects like the AeroTrain which didn't end up stimulating passenger traffic. They also had a bit of bad luck in that they scrambled to handle the surge in traffic from when ACA tried to go it alone as Independence Air and ended up flaming out.

Fantastic! By now, though - alot of those costs have come down, right? I mean, what are the costs like now? Still much higher? How can they cut costs?
 
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STT757
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:41 pm

My personal opinion is that improving IAD's function and attractiveness to travelers are competing with it's competitiveness to airlines which is a vicious cycle to break.

An idea to make IAD more user friendly:

Rebuild Z gates, again, on both sides of the main terminal to accommodate the B6, DL, AA, WN, F9, AS/VX flights. Something a little larger with better concessions and vendor choices. Create a similar layout to ATL's T gates, something easy to get in and out of but avoiding crazy dramatic design. Basic but functional with more space.

Move UA to the A/B concourse (no new construction)

Build a new C/D concourse exclusively for International flights (including UA International arrivals), including a the main FIS/ IAB.

The one thing IAD has going for it is the robust International operation, both from UA and the foreign carriers. If the new C/D could be built and operated by a private consortium, similar to T-1 at JFK, then the costs of that new terminal could be carried by the international carriers and not the domestic carriers.
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commavia
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:56 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Metro being completed to IAD will indeed likely have little effect on the convenience of getting there. When the Silver Line reaches IAD, there will be TWENTY-ONE stations--count 'em on the DC Metrorail map-- between IAD and Metro Center. 21. Add a connection and three more if you want to get to Union Station. And, yes, given the terrible state of Metro, I wouldn't count on them getting trains to IAD even every 20 minutes on a weekend.

The completed Silver Line will no doubt be faster than the rumbling bus to Wiehle Ave I used the one time I tried the current setup. But still, it will not be really fast or convenient, the way a commuter train would be. And the land /easement situation between downtown DC and Dulles means a commuter train is out of the question. It can take an hour to drive from downtown DC to IAD in bad traffic now, and Metro won't be much faster. The primary benefit of the Silver Line will be to businesses in the Dulles Corridor. The real problem with Dulles was guranteed in the 1950's, when the Federal Gov't didn't stand up to Tysons-area NIMBY's and sited the fool thing out in Chantilly.

I think the commenters above are correct who say that IAD will gradually grow over the long term, as DCA absorbs the enplanement increases that came from beyond-perimeter slots and the AA-US transaction. More business complexes and residential development out through Loudoun County will gradually keep increasing the IAD catchment zone. But the Beltway-on-in market, has clearly spoken in favor of DCA.


I think this pretty much sums it up.

IAD's challenges have been discussed numerous times on A.net, including in this thread. The airport's location is suboptimal for many of the higher-yielding business travelers who are necessary to support significant additional domestic capacity. And I agree completely that no about of Metro stops is going to fix that - it is physically impossible to ever make IAD more convenient, on average, for someone in the immediate urban core of the District itself (one airport is 3 miles away, the other is 23 miles away).

That said, as the WAS metro market continues to develop, the confluence of market, demographic and geographic dynamics that are currently working against IAD will eventually start working for IAD. The latent demand today being soaked up by a mass of new capacity at DCA is already starting to be absorbed by the market, and growth outward from the urban core will mean IAD's location becomes less of a disadvantage for more of the metro population.

But work still needs to be done, because even after DCA is essentially "full," there will still be competition between IAD and BWI to cater to the latent, growing demand. Some segment of the suburban counties in Maryland and Virginia will, for proximity reasons, obviously stay relatively "captive" to one of those airports or the other, but there is plenty of growth that will occur in places that could plausibly become indifferent, and thus "pulled," to IAD or BWI. To capture that growth, I agree with others that IAD has to improve its accessibility, its facilities and the overall passenger experience.
 
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Boeing717200
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:37 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
theasianguy wrote:
For the last decade, traffic has steadily declined at IAD, as more passengers prefer the convenience of DCA. It is well known that IAD is too far out and has no connections to public transportation (until the Silver Line is finally complete). The airport also employs a confusing layout of mobile lounges and a third world standard C/D concourse.

Despite all of this, the Washington Metro Area is one of the most affluent in the US with high travel demand. The airfield is underutilized, and has the potential to handle more than twice the amount of traffic it currently has. Why has United decided to neglect IAD, cutting flights, and shift capacity to the more congested EWR? If there is a big enough capital investment to raze the C/D concourse and build out a terminal configuration like ATL or DEN, I could see IAD becoming a major connection hub of 400+ daily departures for the Southeast, Mid-Atlantic, and Transatlantic. If AA can make CLT and PHL work, why doesn't UA capitalize on IAD?


This topic seems to pop up several times per year.

You have answered your own question in your first paragraph. Passengers prefer............

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that travelers in the DC-Baltimore region are unable to travel by air to almost anywhere?

IMO Dulles will grow in passenger traffic only after National exceeds capacity OR flights are severely reduced at National forcing their transfer to Dulles. National should serve only as an hourly commuter airport to places such as New York, Boston, Philly, Chicago, Atlanta and maybe RDU or Charlotte.

When Congress, in their wisdom, permits that to be done, there will be plenty of money available to improve facilities at Dulles, including extending the Metro rail system into the terminal. There will also be space available for an expanded Congressional parking lot.

I won't mention the benefits that will also be enjoyed by BWI and the traveling public.


The appropriate thing to do would be to lift the perimeter rule and allow the proper rationalization of service between the two airports. If small markets survive the lift, good for them. If they fail, too bad.
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DCAfan
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:53 pm

Assuming the modernization of the ATC system is successful Congress could adopt less restrictive high density and perimeter rules, say 61 operations per hour with a 2,500 mile perimeter. As there is real estate available for more gates between the Banjo and the B connector, the small markets might not take that big a hit. In short, Congress might be able to have its cake and eat it too.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:40 pm

commavia wrote:
DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Metro being completed to IAD will indeed likely have little effect on the convenience of getting there. When the Silver Line reaches IAD, there will be TWENTY-ONE stations--count 'em on the DC Metrorail map-- between IAD and Metro Center. 21. Add a connection and three more if you want to get to Union Station. And, yes, given the terrible state of Metro, I wouldn't count on them getting trains to IAD even every 20 minutes on a weekend.

The completed Silver Line will no doubt be faster than the rumbling bus to Wiehle Ave I used the one time I tried the current setup. But still, it will not be really fast or convenient, the way a commuter train would be. And the land /easement situation between downtown DC and Dulles means a commuter train is out of the question. It can take an hour to drive from downtown DC to IAD in bad traffic now, and Metro won't be much faster. The primary benefit of the Silver Line will be to businesses in the Dulles Corridor. The real problem with Dulles was guranteed in the 1950's, when the Federal Gov't didn't stand up to Tysons-area NIMBY's and sited the fool thing out in Chantilly.

I think the commenters above are correct who say that IAD will gradually grow over the long term, as DCA absorbs the enplanement increases that came from beyond-perimeter slots and the AA-US transaction. More business complexes and residential development out through Loudoun County will gradually keep increasing the IAD catchment zone. But the Beltway-on-in market, has clearly spoken in favor of DCA.


I think this pretty much sums it up.

IAD's challenges have been discussed numerous times on A.net, including in this thread. The airport's location is suboptimal for many of the higher-yielding business travelers who are necessary to support significant additional domestic capacity. And I agree completely that no about of Metro stops is going to fix that - it is physically impossible to ever make IAD more convenient, on average, for someone in the immediate urban core of the District itself (one airport is 3 miles away, the other is 23 miles away).

That said, as the WAS metro market continues to develop, the confluence of market, demographic and geographic dynamics that are currently working against IAD will eventually start working for IAD. The latent demand today being soaked up by a mass of new capacity at DCA is already starting to be absorbed by the market, and growth outward from the urban core will mean IAD's location becomes less of a disadvantage for more of the metro population.

But work still needs to be done, because even after DCA is essentially "full," there will still be competition between IAD and BWI to cater to the latent, growing demand. Some segment of the suburban counties in Maryland and Virginia will, for proximity reasons, obviously stay relatively "captive" to one of those airports or the other, but there is plenty of growth that will occur in places that could plausibly become indifferent, and thus "pulled," to IAD or BWI. To capture that growth, I agree with others that IAD has to improve its accessibility, its facilities and the overall passenger experience.


Meh, how long does it take? Two decades, three, ten? The region's growth is slowing down, particularly in the outer Northern Virginia counties that is supposedly IAD's market. When the area was seeing explosive growth last decade (Loudoun was the 3rd fastest growing county in the nation in the mid-2000s) IAD didn't see any real growth except when Independence Air tried to give away flights to survive. Cargo volume isn't close to breaking records either. UA continues to chose to connect people at already constrained EWR over IAD.

We're over a decade since IAD has reached it's peak. I have my doubts well see the 2005 pax served record broken in the next 10 either.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:02 pm

If you want in indication of how slow IAD continues to be: most of the expansion construction over the last decade was probably not needed.

For example, the top level of the Daily 2 parking garage has been closed for about a year as they work on the METRO station. Even with this closure, the other four levels of the garage are never more than half full including the summer and on the winter holidays. In slower times only 2 levels are really used. Also, when you drive into IAD you'll see several economy lots that are just north of the approach end of 19L, I can't remember the last time a saw car in any of the far lots. Some have been closed off for years.
 
FlyPNS1
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:11 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
UA continues to chose to connect people at already constrained EWR over IAD.

We're over a decade since IAD has reached it's peak. I have my doubts well see the 2005 pax served record broken in the next 10 either.


But how much more can UA push through EWR? Plus, is UA willing to give up O&D traffic in NYC to get that connecting flow. In

I doubt we'll see the 2005 record reached in the very near term, but that was an unrealistic bubble anyway. If you look at IAD's growth over the long-term (1990-2020), you'll see slow but steady growth over the long-term if you strip out the Independence Air bubble. Even during the Independence Air peak of 2005, Dulles only did 27 million passengers. Dulles bottomed-out at 21.5 million in 2014 and is back to 23 million in 2016. Current projections would have Dulles around 24 million for 2017. At that rate, Dulles could hit the 2005 peak by 2020, though obviously many other factors could change that.
 
UA772IAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:16 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
commavia wrote:
DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Metro being completed to IAD will indeed likely have little effect on the convenience of getting there. When the Silver Line reaches IAD, there will be TWENTY-ONE stations--count 'em on the DC Metrorail map-- between IAD and Metro Center. 21. Add a connection and three more if you want to get to Union Station. And, yes, given the terrible state of Metro, I wouldn't count on them getting trains to IAD even every 20 minutes on a weekend.

The completed Silver Line will no doubt be faster than the rumbling bus to Wiehle Ave I used the one time I tried the current setup. But still, it will not be really fast or convenient, the way a commuter train would be. And the land /easement situation between downtown DC and Dulles means a commuter train is out of the question. It can take an hour to drive from downtown DC to IAD in bad traffic now, and Metro won't be much faster. The primary benefit of the Silver Line will be to businesses in the Dulles Corridor. The real problem with Dulles was guranteed in the 1950's, when the Federal Gov't didn't stand up to Tysons-area NIMBY's and sited the fool thing out in Chantilly.

I think the commenters above are correct who say that IAD will gradually grow over the long term, as DCA absorbs the enplanement increases that came from beyond-perimeter slots and the AA-US transaction. More business complexes and residential development out through Loudoun County will gradually keep increasing the IAD catchment zone. But the Beltway-on-in market, has clearly spoken in favor of DCA.


I think this pretty much sums it up.

IAD's challenges have been discussed numerous times on A.net, including in this thread. The airport's location is suboptimal for many of the higher-yielding business travelers who are necessary to support significant additional domestic capacity. And I agree completely that no about of Metro stops is going to fix that - it is physically impossible to ever make IAD more convenient, on average, for someone in the immediate urban core of the District itself (one airport is 3 miles away, the other is 23 miles away).

That said, as the WAS metro market continues to develop, the confluence of market, demographic and geographic dynamics that are currently working against IAD will eventually start working for IAD. The latent demand today being soaked up by a mass of new capacity at DCA is already starting to be absorbed by the market, and growth outward from the urban core will mean IAD's location becomes less of a disadvantage for more of the metro population.

But work still needs to be done, because even after DCA is essentially "full," there will still be competition between IAD and BWI to cater to the latent, growing demand. Some segment of the suburban counties in Maryland and Virginia will, for proximity reasons, obviously stay relatively "captive" to one of those airports or the other, but there is plenty of growth that will occur in places that could plausibly become indifferent, and thus "pulled," to IAD or BWI. To capture that growth, I agree with others that IAD has to improve its accessibility, its facilities and the overall passenger experience.


Meh, how long does it take? Two decades, three, ten? The region's growth is slowing down, particularly in the outer Northern Virginia counties that is supposedly IAD's market. When the area was seeing explosive growth last decade (Loudoun was the 3rd fastest growing county in the nation in the mid-2000s) IAD didn't see any real growth except when Independence Air tried to give away flights to survive. Cargo volume isn't close to breaking records either. UA continues to chose to connect people at already constrained EWR over IAD.

We're over a decade since IAD has reached it's peak. I have my doubts well see the 2005 pax served record broken in the next 10 either.


When IAD reached its peak, we had more than the US-3. We still had NW and CO and US and HP. My history is a bit fuzzy, but WN had just entered the DC market (meaning they were serving more than BWI- they began flying to IAD). It was also the heyday of LCCs, a period of time when they were new, trendy and new ones seemed to be popping up all the time (anyone remember Skybus?).... I remember hearing in the news that at one point, IAD had more LCCs serving it than any other airport.

The region is still growing, albeit not at the rate it was during the financial crisis and great recession (due to it being "recession proof"). Largely due to the fact the nation's economy has caught up, and the huge number of development projects in the DC area have been built out. Tysons (Corner) is the 12th largest "downtown" in the country. It had (and may still have) more office square footage than Manhattan and is the largest "city" between DC and Atlanta. That growth occurred in the later half of the last decade. Development still continues here, and it still happens outside of the District because that's where the growth is happening. DC's population peaked in 2010 at over 600,000; while today it is around 560,000.

Air cargo will never be a large source of business in the region. We have too much competition: major interstates, railroad (CSX and Norfolk Southern) and two large ports (Baltimore and Norfolk) within a few hours drive.

EWR cannot absorb IAD's traffic. EWR domestic traffic is now getting the treatment that pre-merger UA gave IAD: widebody aircraft to hubs during peak travel times, but this isn't because the airline "prefers" to connect traffic over EWR- it's due to the fact that the airline has the equipment to do so. CO and until recently, merged UA did not have spare widebody aircraft for dedicated domestic service. Reconfiguring the fleet and taking on new aircraft have enabled them to do so. As someone else pointed out, like CLE, your market won't just choose to connect somewhere else. They'll chose another airline. I think the long term lease that UA just signed shows that the airline realizes this and does not want to lose its market here.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:16 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
theasianguy wrote:
When Congress, in their wisdom


That's what we call an oxymoron
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:25 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
I did a look on the IAD wikipedia page and it shows that cargo traffic is been decreasing since the 2001 peak. What is the main cargo hub for the region? BWI?


Neither. Both IAD & BWI are served by multiple daily flights from FX and 5X.
 
UA772IAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:29 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
ScottB wrote:
YoungDon wrote:
Dulles will continue to grow - much of the growth in the area outside of the city is in the Western suburbs. The Silver Line will mostly benefit those in Fairfax County - not those in DC/Arlington. Luckily, that's a very large, affluent population to work with.


Recent demographic trends point in the opposite direction. Millennials and empty nesters have been staying in or moving back into cities and the Loudoun County real estate market has been difficult.


This is off-topic, but I am just fascinated. How are housing prices within the city? I can see the physical limitation of being 'boxed in' means that the city cannot grow - and thus pricing property inside rises. When I was there last year, I spoke with a few about the issue. A few long-time natives discussed gentrification (and I hope to not cause any controversy with that, so I apologize if it offends anyone), other spoke of building height restrictions, others often discussed how the 'history' was in the way (thus harder to move specific buildings et al). All in all - what are the prospects like for a young/young-ish people and their needs. I can see many making the trade-off, staying in the city and living (and paying for) the convenience. As a tourist, I payed less attention to how expensive things were. In Loudoun County, are things less expensive? So much so that it is an option for those that work in D.C.? Is there a decent comparison to any other real-world pairing? (Living in New Jersey, and commuting into Manhattan for work?)

Rajahdhani wrote:
In speaking to them, I came to realize - IAD's higher costs probably contributed into why BWI caters to greater LCC penetration. So, I can see - even if both IAD and DCA were united under the same management style, ultimately there not being as effective a control of the market, as is likely to be expected - as BWI's traffic and presence (with some overlap) could also provide some decent coverage to those wishing perhaps to increase their presence and not wanting to deal with that management team.


Actually, I think that BWI management was just more aggressive about working with carriers interested in serving the airport, and that paid off handsomely with WN's growth there, even if that meant the demise of the US hub there. IMO there has been a bit of complacency on the part of MWAA because they operate what have historically been the primary airports for Washington, D.C. -- and in the wake of that BWI grew from what had been really an afterthought to the region's busiest airport by passenger boardings. IAD's costs really weren't out-of-line until MWAA committed to some very expensive projects like the AeroTrain which didn't end up stimulating passenger traffic. They also had a bit of bad luck in that they scrambled to handle the surge in traffic from when ACA tried to go it alone as Independence Air and ended up flaming out.

Fantastic! By now, though - alot of those costs have come down, right? I mean, what are the costs like now? Still much higher? How can they cut costs?


Living in Washington does come at a high price. Not only are rents high, but taxes are high (compared to VA and MD). Much of the city has been gentrified, and the areas that aren't likely won't be for a very long time, so finding a "steal" in terms of housing is not that easy- although it isn't impossible. You can live in the city without a car, and many do, but keep in mind, most DC residents move here from somewhere else and already have a car. If you don't sell it, parking is another issue (as with any city). DC is like anywhere else regarding residency- young people come; they live and play in the city for a while; they get tired of it, decide to start a family or their priorities change and they move out to the suburbs (or out of the area), until they are too old or encumbered with home ownership and downsize to something with amenities- either back in the city, next to it, or if your on the East Coast, to Florida.

The cost savings for living in the suburbs here increases the further away you go. It is why this area is full of people doing insane commutes, where "an hour" to work is the accepted norm and limits. It is also why people here work non-standard hours, on the road at 5/6 AM to work, and heading home around 3:pm. Moving out of DC gives you more space, a place for your car (if you have one), better shopping, significantly better schools (a huge reason why young families leave the city), less crime and real estate for your dollar.

// Regarding costs, I've also heard (FWIW), that UA's lease agreement at IAD is quite low, compared to other carriers, since it operates from a "temporary" terminal. This is has been speculated as to why UA hasn't been quick to invest in a new C/D concourse.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:33 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
To me, the biggest problem isn't the distance from downtown. I don't mind that. It's the fact that once you get there, IAD is a complete and utter rat maze. From the time I'm dropped off at the curb, there's like 9 different escalators to get to the gate I'm at (or the moronic walk from what will be the future Concourse C station). It is the single worst terminal layout I have ever encountered. At BWI and DCA, curb to gate is often 10 minutes or less for me, including screening. At, IAD, it's often a 30-35 minute consuming ordeal.


There are no above ground connections between the main terminal and the mid-field concourses. The only alternative is to go below ground. Once you check in, you go down one escalator to security. Once you clear security, if you are going on to the mid-field concourses, you go down another short escalator to catch the Aerotrain. Once you reach your concourse destination, you go up a series of two escalators to reach the concourse. Again, there is always the stairs.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:44 pm

dcaviation wrote:
If it took you 35 minutes then you are not doing something right. My mother who doesn't speak English, can get from check in desks to C/D gates in 10 minutes.


IAD is my airport of choice in the DC area mainly because I live less than 10 minutes from it. I have flown in and out of IAD maybe 40-50 times over the last several years, and the only time I have ever had to wait 35+ minutes for check-in or security, was when my flight was leaving during the daily International flight rush between 5 & 7 pm, when most of the UA Intl flights leave, then add on LH, VS, SA, SK, SV, KL, BA, OS & AF all leaving within roughly a 2 hour time frame. Other times, I've been checked-in, through security and waiting for the aerotrain and on the phone with my wife before she can drive the 10 minutes back to our house. I'm not sure what people are expecting.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:52 pm

QuarkFly wrote:
But some cons,,,
- Still some terrible 1960's era Mobile Lounge transport, Yuk!


Yes, but they're still fun to ride on. Not many airports can you get off a flight and onto one of these mobile lounges and get the airfield perspective like you can at IAD.

QuarkFly wrote:
- Customs/Passport and arrival baggage is always slow.


Again, it all depends on when you are departing and arriving. My last flight was FRA-IAD on LH (arrived ~3:30 pm) and it took me about 30 minutes to get through Customs. A few years ago I flew DXB-IAD on EX (arrived ~8:30 AM) and I zipped right through Customs.

QuarkFly wrote:
- Terminals are out of date -- C/D terminal is United -- they should replace the whole thing.


This isn't an issue unique to IAD. PHL, EWR, and LAX are all equally, if not worse IMO, than IAD terminal C/D.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:02 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
dcaviation wrote:
GSP psgr - if it takes you 30-35 minutes to get to your gate at IAD, then maybe you should stick with your GSP airport.
IAD is not GSP, and they have little over 4 gates (unlike GSP), and from the parking garage to C gates it takes about 10 minutes. That's involving walk from daily garage, going through security and catching a train.
To get back from D gates to the car took even less time. People mover to main terminal, walk to garage, and I'm done.

If it took you 35 minutes then you are not doing something right. My mother who doesn't speak English, can get from check in desks to C/D gates in 10 minutes.


My experience with IAD:

Get dropped off by Silver Line Express, take escalators up to ticketing, where it's a few minutes walk over to the United area (far end of the terminal); pick up boarding passes: 4-5 minutes.
Take the escalators down to security, get screened (which seems to take twice as long at IAD vs DCA): 20 minutes
Go catch the Aerotrain over to the A Gates (I think there's yet more effing escalators involved here):3-4 Minutes
Take escalators up from A Gate Aerotrain stop, walk to the end of the A mainline gates, take escalator up and then another down to the United Express gates: 4-5 minutes.

IAD has a severe escalator up and down fetish; as far as an O&D airport is concerned, it's got a terrible layout. It's a bit better as an arrival airport, but not much.


And by the time you walk from the Silver Line Express drop-off to the UA Express gates, you would be in the middle of the Potomac at DCA. By comparison, I have waited 30+ minutes at DCA for my bags, while when arriving on a domestic flight at IAD I have never had to wait that long.

GSP psgr wrote:
This compared at DCA:
Get dropped off by metro, pick up boarding pass: 2 minutes
Get through DCA security: Never more than 10 minutes.
Walk to gate: 3 minutes


Apples to Oranges.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:24 pm

jwvw89 wrote:
QuarkFly wrote:
Don't worry Mods...this post won't mention our new US President's risk to DC area airports, so hope you won't remove this post...

IAD will do fine in the future, regardless of what UA does...

- 2020 Silver-line Metro rail arrives, all the "too far out" from DC talk should subside.



Yes the Silver Line will help, but honestly it still won't be that convenient for people living in DC, Arlington and Falls Church due to the travel time it will take. I'm sure the travel time from IAD to DC will be a minimum of 45 minutes. That's quite a long time, especially when you can get from Metro Center to DCA in less than 20. So the talk will still continue that IAD is too far out, even after the Silver Line is completed.


Currently, the travel time from Metro Center to the IAD terminal is 57 minutes per WMATA, and that includes METRO to Reston and the Express bus to the terminal. Once the Silver Line is extended, the three additional stations could take 8-10 minutes, because the distance from the Reston Station to IAD is very short. Currently, according to Google Maps, the drive from Metro Center to IAD is 37 minutes with he caveat of "lighter traffic than usual." Any other day other than the Friday before a 3-day weekend at this same time, and you can easily add 10-15 minutes on to that. Now, fast forward 1-2 hours, and that 37-45 minute drive can easily take upwards of 90 minutes, depending on traffic on the GW Parkway/Beltway and/or I-66. As someone who lives in the area, the people can't drive around here and there is ALWAYS an accident, I-66 and the GW Parkway/Beltway is an absolute nightmare. Pretty soon, that looooooong Metro ride won't seem that bad, especially when you're zipping along at 55 mph on the METRO while I-66 is a parking lot.


jwvw89 wrote:
Not to mention this is the DC metro we are talking about, so trains will only run every 20 minutes on weekend, constant track work will likely cause delays, .


Between Rosslyn and Stadium Armory, Blue, Orange and Silver line trains run between 3-4 minutes of each other Mon-Fri. On the weekends the whole system slows down, so your METRO trip to DCA will take longer, too.

jwvw89 wrote:
and the hours are not consistent to a 24 hour operation like IAD (the trains start running on weekends at 7 am and stops at midnight).



Which IAD are you referring to that operates on a 24 hour schedule? IAD may be "open" 24/7, but flights do not operate 24/7.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:27 pm

UAL777UK wrote:
So its looking like DCA beats IAD hands down by the looks of things. How are those flights out of DCA to LHR, FRA, NRT, BRU, CDG etc doing? ;)


That BA A380 is on final approach low over the Potomac as we speak.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:32 pm

United787 wrote:
IAD has yet to see it's best days, they are coming. Just like JFK saw it's rebirth, so will IAD. DCA has limited growth potential and the metro region will continue to grow in the direction of IAD.

The Silver Line will surely help...although it won't be the cure. The biggest mistake, IMHO, was not running the Silver Line through Reston Town Center... being 1/2 mile south in the middle of the freeway goes against all new urbanist planning principals...


Agree that the Silver Line is not the end all be all cure, but it certainly helps. The Silver Line Station is located in the best possible location right now. Easily accessible to the office park south of the Toll Rd., and a very short bus ride from the Town Center. No way the Line could go through the Town Center unless it went underground.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:47 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
Even if they did, it would still not properly discuss or handle, BWI. Those closer to the ground, please correct me to the most correct answer - however getting from downtown DC to BWI is sometimes less of a hassle (if using mass transit) than getting to IAD. Having booked a college students on their way back recently - they explained that, despite perhaps being a longer - IAD was also more expensive, and offered less to their needs.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Washington,+DC/BWI,+Baltimore,+MD/@39.0655957,-77.135114,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x89b7c6de5af6e45b:0xc2524522d4885d2a!2m2!1d-77.0368707!2d38.9071923!1m5!1m1!1s0x89b7e2fcbbc2e00b:0x150cfa971740!2m2!1d-76.6683922!2d39.1774042


Nobody can get from downtown DC to BWI unless you take MARC, and they run less frequently than METRO, and even less so on the weekends. Getting to IAD requires riding METRO to Reston and then taking an Express bus to IAD.

Rajahdhani wrote:
With a bus/metro combo taking 47 minutes.

IAD takes longer...

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Washington,+DC/IAD+-+Washington+Dulles+Intl+Airport,+Saarinen+Circle,+Dulles,+VA/@38.9211591,-77.3018518,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x89b7c6de5af6e45b:0xc2524522d4885d2a!2m2!1d-77.0368707!2d38.9071923!1m5!1m1!1s0x89b64740174eb057:0x8e01cb201080601d!2m2!1d-77.4565388!2d38.9531162

With a train/train/bus combo taking 1 hour, 10 minutes.

For the locals, please weigh in (if you can) on how perhaps the new improvements to the subway system (or improvements to local roads) contribute to access, and/or how google map's answer fails to meet the realities on the ground. For those that do it often, what's the fastest/easiest way from D.C. to either IAD or BWI.


Downtown DC to IAD via METRO and Express bus takes 47 minutes, which will be shorter once the Silver Line extends to IAD. Essentially a direct connection if you get on the Silver Line.

Rajahdhani wrote:
In speaking to them, I came to realize - IAD's higher costs probably contributed into why BWI caters to greater LCC penetration. So, I can see - even if both IAD and DCA were united under the same management style, ultimately there not being as effective a control of the market, as is likely to be expected - as BWI's traffic and presence (with some overlap) could also provide some decent coverage to those wishing perhaps to increase their presence and not wanting to deal with that management team. Indeed, it is no substitute for either DCA or IAD - but I could see it complicating matters a little. For that reason, IAD might be better served being able to grow - unfettered by having to consider others for a little while.

IAD could also logically grow to support greater international carriers. Star Alliance members could find decent incentive to serve the city (and as costs improve, and UA is able to provide a larger hub - provide decent connecting feeds). An example, and decently encouraging news - AI has announced IAD. TP does not serve the airport yet - however LIS-IAD would be A321NEO capable, and decently sized for that market. That said, IAD is impressive in the amount of international carriers that they do serve - and well. So, I can see short-term them focusing on lowering the costs with UA (and giving UA as many oppurtunities as possible to grow a little) and perhaps bringing in a few other international carriers.

The question of AI's arrival will then arrive to EK, EY and QR. A non-stop to India might steal some yields away (and as has been demonstrated before, on ULH - a miniature change in those economics can erode their ability to serve it - or chose to serve it when there are other routes that provide less competition and higher yields). I don't believe that it will be enough to knock any of them off of the routes - but it will likely have an effect. Perhaps with all 3 there, the cumulative effect will be manageable. Otherwise, expect to see the weakest player drop frequencies.


IMO, AI won't last at IAD. They tried that a few years ago DEL-EWR-IAD-EWR-DEL, and it didn't last long. I see no reason why non-stop service will work this time. EK, EY, QR & BA all have better service.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:54 pm

RogerMurdock wrote:
QuarkFly wrote:
BWI is fine for SWA access, but hard to get to from DC/Virginia.


BWI is much easier to get to now from DC than IAD, and arguably will still be easier once phase 2 of the Silver Line is complete. (Green Line to Greenbelt & B30 bus, or Amtrak to BWI station and shuttle bus) The Silver Line downtown to Dulles will take upwards of an hour and won't even drop you off adjacent to the terminal.


Metro Center to IAD is currently a little over 1 hour, but that is taking into consideration that travelers must transfer to an Express Bus at Reston. The trip to IAD will be much shorter and direct once the Silver Line extends out. Mind you that the Express bus gets on the Dulles Access lane, where as any bus to BWI must navigate the BW Parkway, and we all know how smoothly traffic flows on that state-of-the-art highway. Also, Amtrak does not operate as frequently as a system like METRO does, so tack on extra time there.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:07 pm

Keith2004 wrote:
BWI is connected via Metro/Bus Combo Shorter than IAD Metro/Bus Combo, and also had Commuter rail/Amtrak options from DC

IAD has Metro/Bus Combo that takes long as is, and won't be much shorter with the 22 silver line stops. Express trains are not possible with current infrastructure


Metro Center to Reston is currently 47 minutes. Add an extra 8-10 minutes max for three stops from Reston to IAD, and quite easily under an hour. As of right now (2:00 pm Friday 17 Feb.), just to get from New Carrolton to BWI via rail, you must take the Amtrak Northeast Regional, which only takes 14 minutes, however, it only runs every 60 minutes. I'll take a Silver Line ride any day over relying on the always reliable Amtrak.

Keith2004 wrote:
Anyone who lives in DC area knows WMATA is not a reliable option on a good day


And you're assuming Amtrak is? Wow, ....... just ......... Wow. Anyone who lives in the DC area (myself included) knows that METRO is sometimes the best option depending on where you are going and when you are going.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:17 pm

Keith2004 wrote:
You make some decent points, but that 21 stop ride is ONLY if you start on the silver line; add a transfer from another line and 5 or more additional stops, it starts to get longer.


No matter where you are going, starting on a Metro line other than Silver will add on extra time, so your point make no sense.

Keith2004 wrote:
BW Parkway is not the only way, its probably the worst way, I-95 is almost always better, and going north there are better options during rush hour (ie US-29) Than going west to IAD.

I use all 3 airports regularly, but IAD is always 3rd choice.


Better options than taking an express lane to IAD? Better than taking a direct train ride to IAD. I fail to see better options, unless you live in Jessup.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:27 pm

peterj324 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
peterj324 wrote:
When the metro comes, I expect only a small rise in passengers. It will still be a long metro ride from the city, the metro is difficult to use for non residents (Fares to destinations are different depending on the destination an time of day and riding the metro now requires you to buy a smartrip card that costs $20 upfront). In addition it is a pain to take luggage on the metro and not many people use the metro to DCA which is much more convenient to D.C.


Those SmartTrip Cards cost $2, not $20.


they have changed it in recent years from $20 (that includes $15 in usable fare) and now $10 ($8 in usable fare). It still costs at least $10 up front and my point is that it is difficult for a tourist to use because unlike other cities, the card pays in dollar amounts rather than trips


That's because the card is useless without "useable" fare. Kind of defeats the purpose otherwise. Also, the SmartTrip cards are not required to ride the system. They are required to ride MetroBus, but paper fare cards are still used throughout the rail system.
 
FlyPNS1
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:34 pm

NOVAIAD wrote:
That's because the card is useless without "useable" fare. Kind of defeats the purpose otherwise. Also, the SmartTrip cards are not required to ride the system. They are required to ride MetroBus, but paper fare cards are still used throughout the rail system.


Nope. Paper fare cards are no longer accepted for Metrorail as of last July.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:40 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
Meh, how long does it take? Two decades, three, ten? The region's growth is slowing down, particularly in the outer Northern Virginia counties that is supposedly IAD's market. When the area was seeing explosive growth last decade (Loudoun was the 3rd fastest growing county in the nation in the mid-2000s) IAD didn't see any real growth except when Independence Air tried to give away flights to survive. Cargo volume isn't close to breaking records either. UA continues to chose to connect people at already constrained EWR over IAD.

We're over a decade since IAD has reached it's peak. I have my doubts well see the 2005 pax served record broken in the next 10 either.


The regions growth is doing anything but slowing down. I drive through Fairfax, Loudoun, and Prince William Counties every day going to and from work. The road construction is ever expanding. The construction of new schools, housing developments and businesses large and small continues. As long as there is a Federal Government, this area will continue to grow.
 
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QuarkFly
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:47 pm

NOVAIAD...Yes we get it -- I think we all understand your unwavering support of IAD. The above -- at least dozen posts in a row truly show your love...John Foster Dulles is smiling down on you from the great Mobile Lounge in the sky!!
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
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N776AU
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:52 pm

Another factor in the relative decline of IAD is the greater availability of bargain fares at DCA. About 4 years ago, I gave up using IAD in favor of DCA after the once-huge fare difference abated. UA's horrible service, sky-high fares, and beat-up aircraft (they're better now, but the damage is done) contributed.

Every time I look for fares to visit my family (and unfortunately IAD is the only option with where they live) I always notice Dulles to be much higher than to Reagan or Baltimore.

Also yes I agree with the sentiment that the airport itself is a cluster-you-know-what. Having traveled through there a lot in recent years it's definitely not the most user-friendly airport.
Careful, Doors Are Closing And Will Not Reopen. Please Wait For The Next Train
 
phluser
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:43 pm

NOVAIAD wrote:
I see no reason why non-stop service will work this time. EK, EY, QR & BA all have better service.


It will depend a lot of Indian based traffic (like government employees) who travel to the US and who are in the front of the plane. They have to travel AI or a Star Alliance carrier on business when possible. The back of the plane might have more North Indian descent customers than South Indian descent customers, but it should fill. While BA might have better service, connecting in LHR dampens the BA service aspect.
 
BG777300ER
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:51 pm

N776AU wrote:
Another factor in the relative decline of IAD is the greater availability of bargain fares at DCA. About 4 years ago, I gave up using IAD in favor of DCA after the once-huge fare difference abated. UA's horrible service, sky-high fares, and beat-up aircraft (they're better now, but the damage is done) contributed.

Every time I look for fares to visit my family (and unfortunately IAD is the only option with where they live) I always notice Dulles to be much higher than to Reagan or Baltimore.

Also yes I agree with the sentiment that the airport itself is a cluster-you-know-what. Having traveled through there a lot in recent years it's definitely not the most user-friendly airport.


I really don't get all the IAD hate here. Does it sometimes take a bit to walk out of the airport, yes. However there are trade offs.

Take an airport like LAX...the DUMB "alley ways" they have are an abomination to airport design. One plane pushing, and taxing until it gets out of the "alley way" literally blocks about 10 other gates from pushing. Countless times when I am landing or taking off from LAX i hear the pilot "Sorry for the delay folks, there is traffic in the alley way".

This would never, ever happen at IAD due to its layout. I'd rather exercise a bit and walk at my own pace than wait for someone to push out while getting ready or coming from a 5+ hour flight.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:52 pm

NOVAIAD wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
Meh, how long does it take? Two decades, three, ten? The region's growth is slowing down, particularly in the outer Northern Virginia counties that is supposedly IAD's market. When the area was seeing explosive growth last decade (Loudoun was the 3rd fastest growing county in the nation in the mid-2000s) IAD didn't see any real growth except when Independence Air tried to give away flights to survive. Cargo volume isn't close to breaking records either. UA continues to chose to connect people at already constrained EWR over IAD.

We're over a decade since IAD has reached it's peak. I have my doubts well see the 2005 pax served record broken in the next 10 either.


The regions growth is doing anything but slowing down. I drive through Fairfax, Loudoun, and Prince William Counties every day going to and from work. The road construction is ever expanding. The construction of new schools, housing developments and businesses large and small continues. As long as there is a Federal Government, this area will continue to grow.


Loudoun, Fairfax and Prince William Counties are growing at roughly half the rate of last decade. The cranes you see near Dulles are developers cashing in urbanization due to the Silver Line, put population growth is slowing and the metro is slowing as well. There's only so many tax dollars available for the region when the economy grows at a slow rate.

People in the DC area kind of crack me up when they talk about the "crazy" amount of new construction in the region. Visit a any mid-sized city in China or go up the road to Toronto. It's impressive from places that have limited growth in the Midwest but DC isn't doing spectacular from a global perspective. Part of the reason for so many cranes is that most new buildings aren't that at all.
 
BG777300ER
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:02 pm

I really don't see where this thread will go (any useful direction anyway).

DC/Northern VA has people. People need airports. IAD exists. It's not a CompUSA, it will never just "shut down". If the DC area faces such a recession that IAD needs to shut down, we have MUCH bigger problems to worry about.

I think half the people writing here have never even flown thru IAD. It's not that bad, it's an airpot, 99% of people are not airliners.net members, and don't care about the 2 more minute walk or the mobile lounges. IAD can't just shut down, DCA/BWI can't take all the traffic. Its.not.going.anywhere.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:10 pm

BG777300ER wrote:
I really don't see where this thread will go.

DC has people. People need airports. IAD exists. It's not a CompUSA, it will never just "shut down" no matter how bad it is. Get over it, and move on.


It has nothing to with people needing airports.

The question is: Why is IAD struggling?

WAS has a set up like NYC except with 14 million less people. At some point the pax cup runneth over without connections. That's why IAD is struggling. It's been able find growth through international pax to cover domestic losses for quite some time. That fountain is about to run dry. What will United do? Where does the growth come from? From EWR? Does UA like profitability?

Cheerleading is great but IAD has issues.
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:42 pm

BG777300ER wrote:
. IAD can't just shut down, DCA/BWI can't take all the traffic. Its.not.going.anywhere.


and in fact the reverse (IAD taking DCA traffic) is probably true, the runways are sufficient though they'd need more gates. Am I correct that IAD has greater runway capacity (4 full length non intersecting) than all but ATL, ORD, DFW and DEN?

On another note, is the runway at DCA long enough for a 757/321 to make it to LHR? I can see AA scheming for such.
 
UA772IAD
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:51 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
NOVAIAD wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
Meh, how long does it take? Two decades, three, ten? The region's growth is slowing down, particularly in the outer Northern Virginia counties that is supposedly IAD's market. When the area was seeing explosive growth last decade (Loudoun was the 3rd fastest growing county in the nation in the mid-2000s) IAD didn't see any real growth except when Independence Air tried to give away flights to survive. Cargo volume isn't close to breaking records either. UA continues to chose to connect people at already constrained EWR over IAD.

We're over a decade since IAD has reached it's peak. I have my doubts well see the 2005 pax served record broken in the next 10 either.


The regions growth is doing anything but slowing down. I drive through Fairfax, Loudoun, and Prince William Counties every day going to and from work. The road construction is ever expanding. The construction of new schools, housing developments and businesses large and small continues. As long as there is a Federal Government, this area will continue to grow.


Loudoun, Fairfax and Prince William Counties are growing at roughly half the rate of last decade. The cranes you see near Dulles are developers cashing in urbanization due to the Silver Line, put population growth is slowing and the metro is slowing as well. There's only so many tax dollars available for the region when the economy grows at a slow rate.

People in the DC area kind of crack me up when they talk about the "crazy" amount of new construction in the region. Visit a any mid-sized city in China or go up the road to Toronto. It's impressive from places that have limited growth in the Midwest but DC isn't doing spectacular from a global perspective. Part of the reason for so many cranes is that most new buildings aren't that at all.


I don't know, to each's own I suppose. About a decade ago, the area looked very different. Tysons was still by and large a mish-mash of late 80s/early 90s suburban office parks, car dealerships and the mall (Tysons l) with four tired department stores. Merrifield and Reston were in similar circumstances. Here are some interesting pieces:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/reale ... -feel.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/25/busi ... -Line.html

DC has also undergone tremendous changes in the last decade- H Street NE, City Center, the ballpark (Nationals Stadium), SW Waterfront, Bloomingdale, etc. all transforming from wasteland into trendy neighborhoods with sleek condos, split levels, shops restaurants. To think that this occurred during a period of recession and so quickly has many of us transfixed.

I think your comparisons to China and Toronto aren't incorrect, but China has what the US doesn't: new wealth being found; people moving from the country to the city and the country's desire to court foreign business. The US hasn't experienced that in a very long time and the sentiments are (without getting too political) that those in the country should have the jobs return to them.

>I don't think that there is any well drying up for IAD. I think the growth occurring in the area will have some net positive effect for the airport, but it has yet to be realized.
 
BG777300ER
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:20 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
BG777300ER wrote:
I really don't see where this thread will go.

DC has people. People need airports. IAD exists. It's not a CompUSA, it will never just "shut down" no matter how bad it is. Get over it, and move on.


It has nothing to with people needing airports.

The question is: Why is IAD struggling?

WAS has a set up like NYC except with 14 million less people. At some point the pax cup runneth over without connections. That's why IAD is struggling. It's been able find growth through international pax to cover domestic losses for quite some time. That fountain is about to run dry. What will United do? Where does the growth come from? From EWR? Does UA like profitability?

Cheerleading is great but IAD has issues.


I see your point, and trust me I'm not cheerleading IAD.

It's quite simple, DCA and BWI are more accessible than IAD. But "struggling" is a very strong word, as IAD dominates out of the 3 in international traffic.
 
BG777300ER
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:21 pm

BG777300ER wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
BG777300ER wrote:
I really don't see where this thread will go.

DC has people. People need airports. IAD exists. It's not a CompUSA, it will never just "shut down" no matter how bad it is. Get over it, and move on.


It has nothing to with people needing airports.

The question is: Why is IAD struggling?

WAS has a set up like NYC except with 14 million less people. At some point the pax cup runneth over without connections. That's why IAD is struggling. It's been able find growth through international pax to cover domestic losses for quite some time. That fountain is about to run dry. What will United do? Where does the growth come from? From EWR? Does UA like profitability?

Cheerleading is great but IAD has issues.


I see your point, and trust me I'm not cheerleading IAD.

It's quite simple, DCA and BWI are more accessible than IAD from the city itself, but NoVA traffic goes to IAD. But "struggling" is a very strong word, as IAD dominates out of the 3 in international traffic.
 
DCAfan
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:22 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:53 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
On another note, is the runway at DCA long enough for a 757/321 to make it to LHR? I can see AA scheming for such.


The 757 can make it but the A321lr cannot. Keep in mind that the NIMBY's would howl over the noise made by a fully loaded 757 taking off for Europe from DCA. The return would require a stop in either DUB or SNN, as these airports have US preclearance.
 
DaufuskieGuy
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:35 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:50 am

it wouldn't be much louder than a 757 headed for LAX. I would think AA could command a hell of a yield. DCA has no CBP now, but I think you could find a few agents given DHS HQ is just minutes away.
 
Noreastshuttle
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:34 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:40 pm

QuarkFly wrote:
NOVAIAD...Yes we get it -- I think we all understand your unwavering support of IAD. The above -- at least dozen posts in a row truly show your love...John Foster Dulles is smiling down on you from the great Mobile Lounge in the sky!!


Thank You!
BOS-WASH Megalopolis
 
Noreastshuttle
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:34 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:57 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
Noreastshuttle wrote:
I'll still be rooting for Dulles success but it's going to still be uphill. National Airport is enjoying its city center presence and BWI is not giving up not letting up with its capital spending to maintain being the regions busiest with passenger boarding. I personally feel BWI is more Easy Come Easy Go than Dulles.


Firstly - that entire post was fascinatingly good. Thank you for the insight. Just to pick your brain, though - what are some of the challenges that IAD has ahead? Can you expand a little on the 'easy come, easy go' statement a little more? I mean - I could see how IAD has, perhaps - less traffic coming in and so would likely have more fight to keep a client, when contrasted against busy BWI that could 'take it, or leave it'. Overall, though - we know some of IAD's weaknesses (such as higher costs, and how that affects specific services) but what are some of BWI's?

Backing to your original point, and thank you to all of the others that very well demonstrated the traffic, and logistic challenges - BWI (and IAD) seem like much less a struggle now to get to (at least from the perspective of a tourist that loves the area). Arriving at DCA is stunningly simple - but now, BWI and IAD don't seem so far away anymore.



Thank you! Well, when I say "easy come, easy go" it's actually BWI's promotion which i personally believe.

BWI has many more ways to access the airport than IAD does. With IAD, and you will notice with its proponents on ANet that it seems the only way to access it by MAJOR artery is route 267 Dulles Toll Road. And NOVAIAD or dcaviation, please correct me if I'm wrong if there is another MAJOR artery (no stop lights) I am missing. BWI... there's route 295, inter.95, etc (by the way, Im not including route 29 in my PERSONAL analysis becuase of stop lights, though considered a Major Artery) and flurry of cross arteries expressways (no tolls) to get you to the airport...route 100, route 32, inter.195 etc

BWI has express buses as well from points of interests and job and transportation centers as well (MTA 201 and B30) and the already debated Amtrak/Marc and Metro access via B30.

Though they are multiple local street ways to get IAD, expressway options there seems to be only 1 and you're on it for an extended period of time and have to access it early without toll. That's not ease of access.

On Devolpement and Economics.

Please don't get me wrong. There has been a lot of developments in NoVa. It's become quite posh there, (here it comes) BUT, There's been a lot of development in Maryland as well. Maryland has been established in regards to its wealth and influence for a long time. Howard county (which is a Baltimore Metro County but has Washington influence) has grown exponentially with wealth and Montgomery County speaks for itself. Prince Georges County boast some of the wealthiest African American communities in the nation. Median incomes are also higher in Maryland. So if proponents continue to point out IADs proximity to wealth then BWI is well positioned up there too.

Washington's developments have had a most of them happen on its Eastern Side (closer to BWI).

I stress again that WASHINGTON DC PROPER residents IMO if faced with the decision of IAD or BWI, if National was not an option domestically, Would choose BWI because of ease of access by multiple arteries and modes of transportation.

Design

BWI is shaped like a horseshoe with splinters for each pier. Behind security access to other terminals though not complete are actively being worked on but you dont have to rely on another mode of transportation to get to your terminal. The terminal is pretty walkable from check in to gate.

IAD does rely on other modes, rather it be by train or mobile lounge. YES there is an option to walk. And I know that 15 min walk would not be acceptable if it was the only option to get to gates at IAD, so proponents don't try to volley that option.

An additional mode of transportation to get to gates, no matter how fast it is, always creates anxiety for the common day to day passenger, which kills desirability. Especially if youve taken multipule already just to get to the airport. Unfortunately that is something IAD can't change and just like terminal expansion BWI is limited because of its horseshoe design.


I hope my personal analysis helps Rajahdhani.

P.S. I love Dulles airport just as much as I love National and BWI. Dulles's Checkin Hall is nothing less of ICONIC. We're privledge to have options in the area to fight about which airport is better instead of a monopoly like Atlanta or Denver. But iconic means nothing if I'm trying to easily get from Here to Chicago without National airport. Simple as that.
BOS-WASH Megalopolis
 
hoya
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:25 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:18 pm

NOVAIAD wrote:
RogerMurdock wrote:
QuarkFly wrote:
BWI is fine for SWA access, but hard to get to from DC/Virginia.


BWI is much easier to get to now from DC than IAD, and arguably will still be easier once phase 2 of the Silver Line is complete. (Green Line to Greenbelt & B30 bus, or Amtrak to BWI station and shuttle bus) The Silver Line downtown to Dulles will take upwards of an hour and won't even drop you off adjacent to the terminal.


Metro Center to IAD is currently a little over 1 hour, but that is taking into consideration that travelers must transfer to an Express Bus at Reston. The trip to IAD will be much shorter and direct once the Silver Line extends out. Mind you that the Express bus gets on the Dulles Access lane, where as any bus to BWI must navigate the BW Parkway, and we all know how smoothly traffic flows on that state-of-the-art highway. Also, Amtrak does not operate as frequently as a system like METRO does, so tack on extra time there.


Don't forget about the 5A Metrobus from L'Enfant and Rosslyn metro stations, via the Herndon Park&Ride, to Dulles. From Rosslyn at least, bus ride can be as short as 35 minutes. When I lived in Rosslyn, super convenient and generally pretty reliable. Traffic on 66 would usually add at most 10 minutes.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
jwvw89
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:02 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:27 pm

NOVAIAD wrote:
jwvw89 wrote:
QuarkFly wrote:
Don't worry Mods...this post won't mention our new US President's risk to DC area airports, so hope you won't remove this post...




Which IAD are you referring to that operates on a 24 hour schedule? IAD may be "open" 24/7, but flights do not operate 24/7.


I never said they operate a 24 hour schedule. However the airport is open 24 hours and many arrivals and departures do not fit the metros hours. Have a flight that gets in after 2300? Hopefully you can get your bags and walk to the station in time before the last train leaves for DC. Or have a 5:30 am departure? You are out of luck there too. DCA faces the same issue, however an uber ride to DCA is a lot less consequential than one from the city to IAD.

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