theasianguy
Topic Author
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:31 am

Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:18 pm

For the last decade, traffic has steadily declined at IAD, as more passengers prefer the convenience of DCA. It is well known that IAD is too far out and has no connections to public transportation (until the Silver Line is finally complete). The airport also employs a confusing layout of mobile lounges and a third world standard C/D concourse.

Despite all of this, the Washington Metro Area is one of the most affluent in the US with high travel demand. The airfield is underutilized, and has the potential to handle more than twice the amount of traffic it currently has. Why has United decided to neglect IAD, cutting flights, and shift capacity to the more congested EWR? If there is a big enough capital investment to raze the C/D concourse and build out a terminal configuration like ATL or DEN, I could see IAD becoming a major connection hub of 400+ daily departures for the Southeast, Mid-Atlantic, and Transatlantic. If AA can make CLT and PHL work, why doesn't UA capitalize on IAD?
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4552
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:38 pm

Another factor in the relative decline of IAD is the greater availability of bargain fares at DCA. About 4 years ago, I gave up using IAD in favor of DCA after the once-huge fare difference abated. UA's horrible service, sky-high fares, and beat-up aircraft (they're better now, but the damage is done) contributed.
 
BobPatterson
Posts: 544
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:39 pm

theasianguy wrote:
For the last decade, traffic has steadily declined at IAD, as more passengers prefer the convenience of DCA. It is well known that IAD is too far out and has no connections to public transportation (until the Silver Line is finally complete). The airport also employs a confusing layout of mobile lounges and a third world standard C/D concourse.

Despite all of this, the Washington Metro Area is one of the most affluent in the US with high travel demand. The airfield is underutilized, and has the potential to handle more than twice the amount of traffic it currently has. Why has United decided to neglect IAD, cutting flights, and shift capacity to the more congested EWR? If there is a big enough capital investment to raze the C/D concourse and build out a terminal configuration like ATL or DEN, I could see IAD becoming a major connection hub of 400+ daily departures for the Southeast, Mid-Atlantic, and Transatlantic. If AA can make CLT and PHL work, why doesn't UA capitalize on IAD?


This topic seems to pop up several times per year.

You have answered your own question in your first paragraph. Passengers prefer............

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that travelers in the DC-Baltimore region are unable to travel by air to almost anywhere?

IMO Dulles will grow in passenger traffic only after National exceeds capacity OR flights are severely reduced at National forcing their transfer to Dulles. National should serve only as an hourly commuter airport to places such as New York, Boston, Philly, Chicago, Atlanta and maybe RDU or Charlotte.

When Congress, in their wisdom, permits that to be done, there will be plenty of money available to improve facilities at Dulles, including extending the Metro rail system into the terminal. There will also be space available for an expanded Congressional parking lot.

I won't mention the benefits that will also be enjoyed by BWI and the traveling public.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
compensateme
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:02 pm

With enplanements in the mid-30M range. I fail to see how the Baltimore-Washington region (BWI, IAD & DCA) is underserved. People are going to favor IAD & BWI for a multitude of reasons.

Put simply, UA was never able to establish a strong customer base in the region to develop IAD into a larger hub, but it isn't like they never tried. Part of that reason is because historically IAD was too far away (although the suburbs have converged over the years). The facilities had nothing to do with it -- look how PHL helped replace PIT in the US network. Nor has UA moved mass amounts of traffic to EWR, that's just an a.net myth.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
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TWA772LR
Posts: 4322
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:19 pm

IAD is still a healthy hub for UA, and as others have pointed, the area is pretty wealthy as well as all of the government agencies. I wonder how UAs yields are from IAD. Everyone says EWR will take over IADs role, but I believe that relationship is more like SFO and LAX, with EWR being the main gateway, and IAD serving the O&D niche as well as regional traffic and some connections. I personally would connect through IAD over EWR, IAH, or LAX any day. And this is coming from an IAH fanboy!

IAD also has TONS of international airlines serving it. Everything from Air Canada and Aeromexico, to Saudia, South African, and Air China.
And for my next miracle, I'm gonna turn water into funk!
 
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WALmsp
Posts: 175
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:19 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
theasianguy wrote:
When Congress, in their wisdom,


I guess that means "never."
In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
 
strfyr51
Posts: 2203
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:28 pm

theasianguy wrote:
For the last decade, traffic has steadily declined at IAD, as more passengers prefer the convenience of DCA. It is well known that IAD is too far out and has no connections to public transportation (until the Silver Line is finally complete). The airport also employs a confusing layout of mobile lounges and a third world standard C/D concourse.

Despite all of this, the Washington Metro Area is one of the most affluent in the US with high travel demand. The airfield is underutilized, and has the potential to handle more than twice the amount of traffic it currently has. Why has United decided to neglect IAD, cutting flights, and shift capacity to the more congested EWR? If there is a big enough capital investment to raze the C/D concourse and build out a terminal configuration like ATL or DEN, I could see IAD becoming a major connection hub of 400+ daily departures for the Southeast, Mid-Atlantic, and Transatlantic. If AA can make CLT and PHL work, why doesn't UA capitalize on IAD?

That was Before the New senior management group at United. The previous group was "CO centric"
These new guys are NOT. the Previous group. Kirby and Oscar are looking at all kinds of stuff and all kinds of options IAD had/has been an important part of our system and it will be again. Everybody already knows EWR is pretty near capacity, And I'll bet in another 10 years we might well be back at JFK...
Especially if they rebuild it the way it was suggested in Aviation Week as a continuous terminal complex instead of all those separate "castles" as it is presently.. No telling how many gates each terminal could accommodate especially if they built the terminals in the same vein as the ORD United Terminal 1 . Everybody that's ever worked there Knows Kennedy could be a "Palace" of an airport, by TODAY'S Standards, But it's outmoded also by Today's standards
 
peterj324
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:47 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:12 pm

Last year passenger traffic at IAD did increase by .4 percent and for 2016 it is expected that it will grow by about 1%. Not mindboggeling numbers but the passenger decline has stopped for now. Importantly for the November statistics, UA domestic growth is 8.2% over last November and UA has renewed their lease through 2024 which shows a strong commitment to IAD.

DCA will soon max out its capacity and BWI is a ways away from Northern Virginia. IAD has had difficult years in the past but the future looks promising.

The most important thing IAD can do is bulf the new concourse for UA that they have been promising for years. A new concourse would help UA consolidate their mainline and express operations and have room for expansion.
 
ty97
Posts: 317
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:19 pm

To the extent and/or if IAD is struggling, it's all about location, location, location.
 
doulasc
Posts: 783
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:41 pm

Wasn't IAD built in 1962 because DCA could not handle Jets like the dc-8 and Boeing 707 and did DCA ever have international flights or did international flights go through Baltimore
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:48 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Another factor in the relative decline of IAD is the greater availability of bargain fares at DCA. About 4 years ago, I gave up using IAD in favor of DCA after the once-huge fare difference abated. UA's horrible service, sky-high fares, and beat-up aircraft (they're better now, but the damage is done) contributed.



For example, MEM-DCA is $114 each way on American Eagle for some flights in June. That is price matching Southwest's lowest fares on MEM-BWI.
Last edited by WaywardMemphian on Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ual777
Posts: 1556
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:49 pm

peterj324 wrote:
Last year passenger traffic at IAD did increase by .4 percent and for 2016 it is expected that it will grow by about 1%. Not mindboggeling numbers but the passenger decline has stopped for now. Importantly for the November statistics, UA domestic growth is 8.2% over last November and UA has renewed their lease through 2024 which shows a strong commitment to IAD.

DCA will soon max out its capacity and BWI is a ways away from Northern Virginia. IAD has had difficult years in the past but the future looks promising.

The most important thing IAD can do is bulf the new concourse for UA that they have been promising for years. A new concourse would help UA consolidate their mainline and express operations and have room for expansion.


The big problem for UA is the fees at IAD are high. They are apparently trying to work with MWAA to fix this.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:50 pm

doulasc wrote:
Wasn't IAD built in 1962 because DCA could not handle Jets like the dc-8 and Boeing 707


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washingto ... rt#Origins suggests the first studies that resulted in IAD started in 1948, long before DC-8 and 707 were designed.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
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MartijnNL
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:04 pm

ty97 wrote:
To the extent and/or if IAD is struggling, it's all about location, location, location.

True. But you might as well say (lack of) transportation, transportation, transportation.

If Dulles could only have a rail link like, for example, Stockholm Arlanda. The 26 miles between that airport and the city centre takes just 20 minutes. It makes for a very pleasant ride compared to the trek from/to Dulles by bus and metro.

Of course I am well aware that the level of public transportation in Europe is very different from that in the United States, unfortunately.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1478
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:30 pm

Living in DC: Metro to DCA or Amtrak to BWI. How the hell does someone get to IAD?
 
IPFreely
Posts: 1081
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:46 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
When Congress, in their wisdom, permits that to be done, there will be plenty of money available to improve facilities at Dulles, including extending the Metro rail system into the terminal. There will also be space available for an expanded Congressional parking lot


Congressmen and Senators prefer DCA and many of them fly to/from their home state from DCA on a near weekly basis.

There is little reason (outside of political benefits) for airlines to provide nonstop service from cities like these (and others) to Washington, DC:

ALB
AUS
BDL
BGR
BHM
BTV
CAK
CHA
CHS
CMH
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN
HSV
ILM
IND
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT
MSN
MSY
PNS
PVD
PWM
TYS
XNA
 
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TWA772LR
Posts: 4322
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:54 pm

I did a look on the IAD wikipedia page and it shows that cargo traffic is been decreasing since the 2001 peak. What is the main cargo hub for the region? BWI?
And for my next miracle, I'm gonna turn water into funk!
 
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hhslax2
Posts: 132
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:00 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
Living in DC: Metro to DCA or Amtrak to BWI. How the hell does someone get to IAD?


http://www.flydulles.com/iad/silver-lin ... il-station
It was better before the silver line project and ran direct between IAD and the West Falls Church metro stop.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:18 pm

The most important thing for Dulles' future is to bring down usage costs. For years, they were some of the highest in the nation, and it's still right up there despite investments from the State of Virginia to attempt to provide some offset. Bringing down those costs, and getting the MWAA's house in order to finally find a C/D replacement will go a long way to securing its future.

The problem right now is that the midfield concourse replacement is in a catch 22. Without a long-term buy in from UA, the MWAA won't commit from their end; the MWAA has been prioritizing other projects, many of which are at DCA due to its rising popularity, and spending large amounts of capital on arguably less important projects for years (driving up usage costs significantly), which makes UA reluctant to commit. Unfortunately nothing is likely to happen until both sides can get on the same page. Completion of the Silver Line is a good first step at improving access and connectivity for O&D, but a lot of things need to happen to break this stagnation the airport has suffered over the past nearly 15 years.
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GordonCC
Posts: 4
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:32 pm

Living in Arlington it is just as easy albeit a bit longer to access IAD as DCA. The dedicated Dulles Toll Road lanes make it a breeze. DCA offers great direct flights to many destination around the country. I am surprised that even with substantial growth in Fairfax and Loudon Counties passenger numbers at IAD are in decline.
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2560
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:32 pm

IPFreely wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
When Congress, in their wisdom, permits that to be done, there will be plenty of money available to improve facilities at Dulles, including extending the Metro rail system into the terminal. There will also be space available for an expanded Congressional parking lot


Congressmen and Senators prefer DCA and many of them fly to/from their home state from DCA on a near weekly basis.

There is little reason (outside of political benefits) for airlines to provide nonstop service from cities like these (and others) to Washington, DC:

ALB
AUS
BDL
BGR
BHM
BTV
CAK
CHA
CHS
CMH
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN
HSV
ILM
IND
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT
MSN
MSY
PNS
PVD
PWM
TYS
XNA


So, don't fly to the smaller markets that actually have higher yielding passengers?
 
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atypical
Posts: 564
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:12 pm

IAD suffers from the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority. The Authority is tone deaf to the needs of the airport and has been slow to act. The AeroTrain is an excellent example of that tone deafness. A/B has two tunnels each with trains service to the terminal. C/D has zero tunnels so a people mover has to be taken an area where there might be a concourse some day to catch the train. So instead of replacing the mobile lounges between concourses and the terminal, it just add to them. As long as this is the way the airport is going to be managed it is not going to suffer from enthusiastic crowds.
 
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atypical
Posts: 564
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:19 pm

IPFreely wrote:

Congressmen and Senators prefer DCA and many of them fly to/from their home state from DCA on a near weekly basis.

There is little reason (outside of political benefits) for airlines to provide nonstop service from cities like these (and others) to Washington, DC:

ALB
AUS
BDL
BGR
BHM
BTV
CAK
CHA
CHS
CMH
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN
HSV
ILM
IND
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT
MSN
MSY
PNS
PVD
PWM
TYS
XNA


OK, if we are going for wild opinions with no proof I must insist it is all the UFOs.
 
BravoEchoNov
Posts: 293
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Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:09 am

United is the world major airline to hub there unfortunately. AA and Delta would likely grow out their operations if they had a hub at Dulles. United has no reason or desire to with Newark so close.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:08 am

BravoEchoNov wrote:
United is the world major airline to hub there unfortunately. AA and Delta would likely grow out their operations if they had a hub at Dulles. United has no reason or desire to with Newark so close.


Not so sure about that. AA has CLT, PHL, DCA and a substantial NYC presence nearby. DL has less, but still their NYC presence is close and the mega hub at ATL is 500 mi away that covers many TATL routings. Both have a meaningful presence at RDU.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:42 am

IPFreely wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
When Congress, in their wisdom, permits that to be done, there will be plenty of money available to improve facilities at Dulles, including extending the Metro rail system into the terminal. There will also be space available for an expanded Congressional parking lot


Congressmen and Senators prefer DCA and many of them fly to/from their home state from DCA on a near weekly basis.

There is little reason (outside of political benefits) for airlines to provide nonstop service from cities like these (and others) to Washington, DC:

ALB
AUS
BDL
BGR
BHM
BTV
CAK
CHA
CHS
CMH
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN
HSV
ILM
IND
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT
MSN
MSY
PNS
PVD
PWM
TYS
XNA

What are you talking about? There is plenty of reason to provide service to D.C. From just about all of those cities.
 
XLA2008
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:53 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:29 am

I'm confused could someone please explain how EWR would take over from IAD? I hear you saying that IAD is too far away... isn't EWR even further lol? I mean Dulles is only a 45 minute drive away from D.C. on the toll, it's not that far out to go for an international flight! Newark is near 4 hours, and why fuss with connecting through another airport which would take double the amount of time than it takes to drive 45 minutes!!! I've spent longer than that in traffic going 10 miles and that's just to go to the store!
 
BobPatterson
Posts: 544
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:07 am

XLA2008 wrote:
I'm confused could someone please explain how EWR would take over from IAD? I hear you saying that IAD is too far away... isn't EWR even further lol? I mean Dulles is only a 45 minute drive away from D.C. on the toll, it's not that far out to go for an international flight! Newark is near 4 hours, and why fuss with connecting through another airport which would take double the amount of time than it takes to drive 45 minutes!!! I've spent longer than that in traffic going 10 miles and that's just to go to the store!


I don't think it is a question about individual flights. It is about where an airline might or should establish a HUB operation.

In general, hub operations for any airline ought to be quite some distance from each other. There is little sense in having hubs too close to each other. Operations at IAD could feed into a hub at EWR, or vice versa.

It would make little sense for WN to open a HUB at IAD since they already have one at BWI (even though they don't call it a hub).
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
vin2basketball
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:31 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:23 am

IPFreely wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
When Congress, in their wisdom, permits that to be done, there will be plenty of money available to improve facilities at Dulles, including extending the Metro rail system into the terminal. There will also be space available for an expanded Congressional parking lot


Congressmen and Senators prefer DCA and many of them fly to/from their home state from DCA on a near weekly basis.

There is little reason (outside of political benefits) for airlines to provide nonstop service from cities like these (and others) to Washington, DC:

ALB
AUS
BDL
BGR
BHM
BTV
CAK
CHA
CHS
CMH
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN
HSV
ILM
IND
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT
MSN
MSY
PNS
PVD
PWM
TYS
XNA


ALB - state capital and thus seat of government for America's 3rd largest state
AUS - 32nd largest US metro area and one of its fastest growing, 34th busiest airport
BDL - 47th largest US metro and seat
BGR
BHM
BTV - Airport serving Boston, America's 10th largest metro area
CAK - airport serving the 32nd largest metro area in the US
CHA
CHS - growing manufacturing hub and tourist destination
CMH - state capital of America's 7th largest state and home to one of America's largest research universities
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN - airport serving NYC
HSV
ILM
IND - America's 34th largest metro area
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT - Airport serving Boston, America's 10th largest metro area
MSN - state capital of America's 20th largest state and home to one of America's largest research universities
MSY - 46th largest US metro area and major tourist destination
PNS
PVD - 38th largest US metro area
PWM
TYS
XNA - home of America's largest corporation generating $500 billion in economic activity

No one is disagreeing that certain cities currently have DCA service thanks to the perimeter rule, but Washington D.C. is the seat of the nation's government and a massive metropolitan area, which means it is naturally going to have demand to a lot of different cities around the country. DC is the 6th largest metro area by GDP and by population (the former figure excluding Baltimore), and it would be more crazy if these cities didn't have at least one nonstop flight to America's 6th largest cities. Between the fact that DCA is the preferred airport for Washington D.C. and the perimeter rule, even the cities not annotated above with a clear reason would likely have service to DCA...
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:09 am

To me, the biggest problem isn't the distance from downtown. I don't mind that. It's the fact that once you get there, IAD is a complete and utter rat maze. From the time I'm dropped off at the curb, there's like 9 different escalators to get to the gate I'm at (or the moronic walk from what will be the future Concourse C station). It is the single worst terminal layout I have ever encountered. At BWI and DCA, curb to gate is often 10 minutes or less for me, including screening. At, IAD, it's often a 30-35 minute consuming ordeal.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 20874
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:35 am

United Oscar Munoz last week at employee event had a few words to say about IAD.

Towards bottom half of this story:
https://skift.com/2017/02/01/united-ceo ... esnt-work/
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
kearnet
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:56 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:35 am

vin2basketball wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
When Congress, in their wisdom, permits that to be done, there will be plenty of money available to improve facilities at Dulles, including extending the Metro rail system into the terminal. There will also be space available for an expanded Congressional parking lot


Congressmen and Senators prefer DCA and many of them fly to/from their home state from DCA on a near weekly basis.

There is little reason (outside of political benefits) for airlines to provide nonstop service from cities like these (and others) to Washington, DC:

ALB
AUS
BDL
BGR
BHM
BTV
CAK
CHA
CHS
CMH
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN
HSV
ILM
IND
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT
MSN
MSY
PNS
PVD
PWM
TYS
XNA


ALB - state capital and thus seat of government for America's 3rd largest state
AUS - 32nd largest US metro area and one of its fastest growing, 34th busiest airport
BDL - 47th largest US metro and seat
BGR
BHM
BTV - Airport serving Boston, America's 10th largest metro area
CAK - airport serving the 32nd largest metro area in the US
CHA
CHS - growing manufacturing hub and tourist destination
CMH - state capital of America's 7th largest state and home to one of America's largest research universities
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN - airport serving NYC
HSV
ILM
IND - America's 34th largest metro area
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT - Airport serving Boston, America's 10th largest metro area
MSN - state capital of America's 20th largest state and home to one of America's largest research universities
MSY - 46th largest US metro area and major tourist destination
PNS
PVD - 38th largest US metro area
PWM
TYS
XNA - home of America's largest corporation generating $500 billion in economic activity

No one is disagreeing that certain cities currently have DCA service thanks to the perimeter rule, but Washington D.C. is the seat of the nation's government and a massive metropolitan area, which means it is naturally going to have demand to a lot of different cities around the country. DC is the 6th largest metro area by GDP and by population (the former figure excluding Baltimore), and it would be more crazy if these cities didn't have at least one nonstop flight to America's 6th largest cities. Between the fact that DCA is the preferred airport for Washington D.C. and the perimeter rule, even the cities not annotated above with a clear reason would likely have service to DCA...


BTV does NOT even remotely serve (Metro) Boston! MHT, ORH, PVD, PSM, and on the fringe,BDL and PWM do, but not BTV.
DC-9-30 US|MD-80 US/AA|737-200 US|737-300 US/WN|737-400 US|737-700 WN|737-800 FJ/QF|F-100 US|F-28 US|Dash-8 200 US| CRJ-200 US|757-200 US/AA|767-200 DL|777-300ER EK|A319-100 US|A320-200 B6|A330-200 FJ|A380-800 EK|ATR-72 AA|B-1900D US
 
isp2
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:41 am

vin2basketball wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
When Congress, in their wisdom, permits that to be done, there will be plenty of money available to improve facilities at Dulles, including extending the Metro rail system into the terminal. There will also be space available for an expanded Congressional parking lot


Congressmen and Senators prefer DCA and many of them fly to/from their home state from DCA on a near weekly basis.

There is little reason (outside of political benefits) for airlines to provide nonstop service from cities like these (and others) to Washington, DC:

ALB
AUS
BDL
BGR
BHM
BTV
CAK
CHA
CHS
CMH
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN
HSV
ILM
IND
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT
MSN
MSY
PNS
PVD
PWM
TYS
XNA


ALB - state capital and thus seat of government for America's 3rd largest state
AUS - 32nd largest US metro area and one of its fastest growing, 34th busiest airport
BDL - 47th largest US metro and seat
BGR
BHM
BTV - Airport serving Boston, America's 10th largest metro area
CAK - airport serving the 32nd largest metro area in the US
CHA
CHS - growing manufacturing hub and tourist destination
CMH - state capital of America's 7th largest state and home to one of America's largest research universities
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN - airport serving NYC
HSV
ILM
IND - America's 34th largest metro area
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT - Airport serving Boston, America's 10th largest metro area
MSN - state capital of America's 20th largest state and home to one of America's largest research universities
MSY - 46th largest US metro area and major tourist destination
PNS
PVD - 38th largest US metro area
PWM
TYS
XNA - home of America's largest corporation generating $500 billion in economic activity

No one is disagreeing that certain cities currently have DCA service thanks to the perimeter rule, but Washington D.C. is the seat of the nation's government and a massive metropolitan area, which means it is naturally going to have demand to a lot of different cities around the country. DC is the 6th largest metro area by GDP and by population (the former figure excluding Baltimore), and it would be more crazy if these cities didn't have at least one nonstop flight to America's 6th largest cities. Between the fact that DCA is the preferred airport for Washington D.C. and the perimeter rule, even the cities not annotated above with a clear reason would likely have service to DCA...


BTV serves the BOS area? Get a map - LOL
 
dolphinflyer
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 9:57 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:15 am

As the capital of California, SMF should have nonstop service to DCA. Hawaiian could serve an HNL-SMF-DCA routing using their new A321neo aircraft (if granted a DCA extra-perimeter slot to do so!)
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:24 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
The most important thing for Dulles' future is to bring down usage costs.


No, the most important thing is making it easy for the flying public to get to it.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 1081
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:26 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
No, the most important thing is making it easy for the flying public to get to it.


It will always be easier to get from Washington to DCA than to IAD, regardless of what they do.
 
User avatar
Blimpie
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:48 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:49 pm

IPFreely wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
No, the most important thing is making it easy for the flying public to get to it.


It will always be easier to get from Washington to DCA than to IAD, regardless of what they do.


But, not everyone lives in DC. And, if we're including BWI in the conversation then keep in mind Baltimore. Also keeping in mind all three airports by extent also serve Annapolis, NoVa, western MD, and the panhandle, points south... The encatchment area is greater than the ten square miles of the district.

I live in Frederick and prefer flying out of IAD over DCA and BWI both domestically and internationally. In fact, I do not think I have ever flown out of National in the 35 years I've been here. I flew only a few times out of BWI and always had a terrible experience for one reason or another, but seldom ever any issues, problems or complaints (knock on wood) with Dulles.

Plus being a straight shot down 15, I hit nearly no traffic except a few hiccups around Leeseburg where as going to DCA is nothing but traffic from the moment I hit 270, all the way through the GWP. BWI, usually light traffic on 70 till I where I lose the third lane at 40. From there if I take the beltway OR 29 to 100 for the BWP or 176, I get slammed

I'll stick to IAD.

EDIT: This topic feels like it comes up at least once a moth, either by dedicated thread or about where UA should cut service threads.
Real men fly without wings!
 
dcaviation
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:26 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:14 pm

What is struggling? IAD lost some domestic passengers after 2008 marked meltdown but they are back on the raise again. MWAA signed 10 year extension lease with United, which is big. United always did year to year extensions at IAD. This time they did 10 years.
State of VA recently gave MWAA $50 mil for C/D renovation.

GSP psgr - if it takes you 30-35 minutes to get to your gate at IAD, then maybe you should stick with your GSP airport.
IAD is not GSP, and they have little over 4 gates (unlike GSP), and from the parking garage to C gates it takes about 10 minutes. That's involving walk from daily garage, going through security and catching a train.
To get back from D gates to the car took even less time. People mover to main terminal, walk to garage, and I'm done.

If it took you 35 minutes then you are not doing something right. My mother who doesn't speak English, can get from check in desks to C/D gates in 10 minutes.
 
asuflyer05
Posts: 2059
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:53 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:32 pm

There are tons of large-scale development projects in the works surrounding IAD. If you live/work near Dulles, getting to DCA can be a major pain. I expect that as new office space comes online, METRO opens and the C/D terminal renovation is complete IAD will be see more demand.

There is LOTS of additional development taking place in areas closest to DCA and frankly, that airport will not be able to handle the demand moving forward. I think UA was smart to sign an extended agreement with MWAA to keep their foothold on IAD.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:20 pm

IPFreely wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
No, the most important thing is making it easy for the flying public to get to it.


It will always be easier to get from Washington to DCA than to IAD, regardless of what they do.


I am not talking about making it easier. I'm talking about making it easy(perhaps convenient is a better word) to get to IAD.
 
DCAfan
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:22 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:28 pm

A huge problem for IAD is that it cannot compete with BWI and DCA for local traffic at airports within the DCA perimeter. Based on data from the Airfares Report for 2q16, IAD could only muster a 12% share of that business. DCA recorded 4 times as many passengers, and BWI did almost 3 times the business as IAD in markets within the DCA perimeter.
 
User avatar
QuarkFly
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:51 pm

Don't worry Mods...this post won't mention our new US President's risk to DC area airports, so hope you won't remove this post...

IAD will do fine in the future, regardless of what UA does...

- 2020 Silver-line Metro rail arrives, all the "too far out" from DC talk should subside.
- Northern Virginia growth now goes from DC out to Ashburn/Loudon County -- actually all the way to W. Virginia and Southern PA. IAD is smack in the middle of all that.
- Experiences slowly improving at IAD, AeroTrain is operating, departure security is faster.
- DCA is great only for those inside or near DC beltway, narrow-body aircraft only. BWI is fine for SWA access, but hard to get to from DC/Virginia
- Low cost carriers at DCA/BWI makes IAD growth look weak, IAD is, and will be, the true international airport for the region.
- All the ME3 carriers are now at IAD, watch out UA !!

But some cons,,,
- Still some terrible 1960's era Mobile Lounge transport, Yuk!
- Customs/Passport and arrival baggage is always slow.
- Terminals are out of date -- C/D terminal is United -- they should replace the whole thing.
- Hard to find your Uber-Lyft driver with the Apps...IAD should cooperate with them, not obstruct new tech ground transport.

IAD is slowly getting better and has a great future...will compliment other regional airports, not compete with them.
Last edited by QuarkFly on Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
vin2basketball
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:31 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:53 pm

isp2 wrote:
vin2basketball wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

Congressmen and Senators prefer DCA and many of them fly to/from their home state from DCA on a near weekly basis.

There is little reason (outside of political benefits) for airlines to provide nonstop service from cities like these (and others) to Washington, DC:

ALB
AUS
BDL
BGR
BHM
BTV
CAK
CHA
CHS
CMH
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN
HSV
ILM
IND
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT
MSN
MSY
PNS
PVD
PWM
TYS
XNA


ALB - state capital and thus seat of government for America's 3rd largest state
AUS - 32nd largest US metro area and one of its fastest growing, 34th busiest airport
BDL - 47th largest US metro and seat
BGR
BHM
BTV - Airport serving Boston, America's 10th largest metro area
CAK - airport serving the 32nd largest metro area in the US
CHA
CHS - growing manufacturing hub and tourist destination
CMH - state capital of America's 7th largest state and home to one of America's largest research universities
CRW
DAY
DSM
GRR
GSP
HPN - airport serving NYC
HSV
ILM
IND - America's 34th largest metro area
JAN
LAN
LEX
MHT - Airport serving Boston, America's 10th largest metro area
MSN - state capital of America's 20th largest state and home to one of America's largest research universities
MSY - 46th largest US metro area and major tourist destination
PNS
PVD - 38th largest US metro area
PWM
TYS
XNA - home of America's largest corporation generating $500 billion in economic activity

No one is disagreeing that certain cities currently have DCA service thanks to the perimeter rule, but Washington D.C. is the seat of the nation's government and a massive metropolitan area, which means it is naturally going to have demand to a lot of different cities around the country. DC is the 6th largest metro area by GDP and by population (the former figure excluding Baltimore), and it would be more crazy if these cities didn't have at least one nonstop flight to America's 6th largest cities. Between the fact that DCA is the preferred airport for Washington D.C. and the perimeter rule, even the cities not annotated above with a clear reason would likely have service to DCA...


BTV serves the BOS area? Get a map - LOL


I live in Boston and I know plenty of people that use BTV, particularly from Boston's northern suburbs
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:37 am

dcaviation wrote:
GSP psgr - if it takes you 30-35 minutes to get to your gate at IAD, then maybe you should stick with your GSP airport.
IAD is not GSP, and they have little over 4 gates (unlike GSP), and from the parking garage to C gates it takes about 10 minutes. That's involving walk from daily garage, going through security and catching a train.
To get back from D gates to the car took even less time. People mover to main terminal, walk to garage, and I'm done.

If it took you 35 minutes then you are not doing something right. My mother who doesn't speak English, can get from check in desks to C/D gates in 10 minutes.


My experience with IAD:

Get dropped off by Silver Line Express, take escalators up to ticketing, where it's a few minutes walk over to the United area (far end of the terminal); pick up boarding passes: 4-5 minutes.
Take the escalators down to security, get screened (which seems to take twice as long at IAD vs DCA): 20 minutes
Go catch the Aerotrain over to the A Gates (I think there's yet more effing escalators involved here):3-4 Minutes
Take escalators up from A Gate Aerotrain stop, walk to the end of the A mainline gates, take escalator up and then another down to the United Express gates: 4-5 minutes.

IAD has a severe escalator up and down fetish; as far as an O&D airport is concerned, it's got a terrible layout. It's a bit better as an arrival airport, but not much.

This compared at DCA:
Get dropped off by metro, pick up boarding pass: 2 minutes
Get through DCA security: Never more than 10 minutes.
Walk to gate: 3 minutes
 
StuckinCMHland
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:59 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:29 am

I love the International Terminal (Terminal A Gates 13-whatever), it is a fantastic place to walk through and enjoy. The rest of the airport should be torn down by any means necessary and rebuilt from the ground up, starting yesterday. And they can start by getting rid of that dumpster fire that is the United RJ terminal in A-1 a-zzz to a-4 or a-6 or a-pain or whatever it is.

A set of WWII Quonset huts with Spam for sale is better than most of the airport. How could this happen to such an important airport?
 
BobPatterson
Posts: 544
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:41 am

StuckinCMHland wrote:
I love the International Terminal (Terminal A Gates 13-whatever), it is a fantastic place to walk through and enjoy. The rest of the airport should be torn down by any means necessary and rebuilt from the ground up, starting yesterday. And they can start by getting rid of that dumpster fire that is the United RJ terminal in A-1 a-zzz to a-4 or a-6 or a-pain or whatever it is.

A set of WWII Quonset huts with Spam for sale is better than most of the airport. How could this happen to such an important airport?


Perhaps the Federal Government being involved in its ownership and operation (together with DCA), and the Congress also being involved, has something to do with it?

I don't mean to suggest that political involvement is nonexistent at many or most airports. But when the Feds/Congress are involved weird things often happen. City/regional governments tend to be and act more rationally, in my opinion.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
LoudounHound
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:43 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:36 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
StuckinCMHland wrote:
I love the International Terminal (Terminal A Gates 13-whatever), it is a fantastic place to walk through and enjoy. The rest of the airport should be torn down by any means necessary and rebuilt from the ground up, starting yesterday. And they can start by getting rid of that dumpster fire that is the United RJ terminal in A-1 a-zzz to a-4 or a-6 or a-pain or whatever it is.

A set of WWII Quonset huts with Spam for sale is better than most of the airport. How could this happen to such an important airport?


Perhaps the Federal Government being involved in its ownership and operation (together with DCA), and the Congress also being involved, has something to do with it?

I don't mean to suggest that political involvement is nonexistent at many or most airports. But when the Feds/Congress are involved weird things often happen. City/regional governments tend to be and act more rationally, in my opinion.


Bingo! Granted, the MWAA made some bad decisions, but for the most part they were predicated upon a reasonable expectation of allowable DCA traffic. The MWAA invested heavily in expanding IAD with the intention of directing all growth there. Then Congress, against local wishes, granted additional beyond perimeter slots at DCA. Then the AA/US merger resulted in dozens of slots at DCA, previously used by US for regional ops, to flow to AS, VX, WN and B6. Suddenly DCA had more options at lower cost, draining some of IAD's demand. I won't argue that this wasn't good for the consumer, just that it ran counter to MWAA's capital investment plan.

Because of traffic was less than expected at IAD, the CPE rose precipitously. The MWAA therefore had to put the brakes on the capital construction program, meaning we're stuck with the old Concourse C/D and the ridiculous backtracking to C from the train station. I'm sure the MWAA wishes it had never built the fourth runway, too; it will be years before they really need it.

All is not lost, though. Eventually DCA will max out again and fares there will rise. Development to the west of D.C. will continue. Metro will open at IAD in 3-4 years. Demand at IAD will recover and growth will resume. The question is whether UA will keep it and enhance it as a full service hub.
 
dcaviation
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:26 am

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:55 pm

QuarkFly wrote:

But some cons,,,
- Still some terrible 1960's era Mobile Lounge transport, Yuk!
- Customs/Passport and arrival baggage is always slow.
- Terminals are out of date -- C/D terminal is United -- they should replace the whole thing.
- Hard to find your Uber-Lyft driver with the Apps...IAD should cooperate with them, not obstruct new tech ground transport.


- Mobile lounges, agree. But there is no better alternative until they finish the train. I didn't see any work being done at the C/D end. I don't know if they are waiting for the terminal refurb project or no.

- Customs and baggage. For the past 4 years, Customs/Passport control has been great. And if you have Global Entry, or electronic passport app, it will take you whole 30 seconds to clear. Last November, I've arrived on LH from MUC at 7pm. When I was dropped off at IAB I was the only person there! I couldn't believe it. In 20+ years flying into IAD I never seen that place empty.
Baggage is hit or miss. My last bad experience with bags at IAD was in summer 2013. Arrived from PTY on Copa at midnight, cleared immigration in no time, and then waited for my bag for 45 minutes! Since then I haven't experienced any delayed baggage service.
And to be fair, on my Air Wisconsin flight PHL-DCA I've waited for my bag 30 minutes. I had to go to the missing baggage office and complain, after they got someone on the radio, our bags showed up.

- Terminals C/D. I couldn't agree more. C/D is nasty. I wish they could do C and then do D (so they wouldn't close the whole thing).

- Uber. Never had problems getting Uber from IAD
 
jwvw89
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:02 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:15 pm

QuarkFly wrote:
Don't worry Mods...this post won't mention our new US President's risk to DC area airports, so hope you won't remove this post...

IAD will do fine in the future, regardless of what UA does...

- 2020 Silver-line Metro rail arrives, all the "too far out" from DC talk should subside.



Yes the Silver Line will help, but honestly it still won't be that convenient for people living in DC, Arlington and Falls Church due to the travel time it will take. I'm sure the travel time from IAD to DC will be a minimum of 45 minutes. That's quite a long time, especially when you can get from Metro Center to DCA in less than 20. So the talk will still continue that IAD is too far out, even after the Silver Line is completed.

Not to mention this is the DC metro we are talking about, so trains will only run every 20 minutes on weekend, constant track work will likely cause delays, and the hours are not consistent to a 24 hour operation like IAD (the trains start running on weekends at 7 am and stops at midnight).
 
diverted
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

Re: Why is IAD struggling?

Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:26 pm

my 2 cents, as a VFR pax to the capital.

I have family that lives in Manassas, specifically south Manassas, a few miles down river from the dam which makes Lake Jackson, before the Prince William Parkway.

So, my options are, get picked up at IAD, or fly to DCA hop the metro, take the Blue Line to Springfield, and get a ride from there. 9 out of 10 times I fly into DCA. Even with the metro, travel time's about the same, and DCA is so much easier to use. Not to mention the approach offers much better scenery than IAD.

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