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kgaiflyer wrote:Off the top of my head, I'd say that since WS is eating AC's lunch in Victoria, AC need to do something different.
OTOH, the people in charge of tourism need to get their act together and bring the people back. But if AC continues with the minimalist service into YYJ, they might just as well pack it up and hand it over to WestJet.
longhauler wrote:kgaiflyer wrote:Off the top of my head, I'd say that since WS is eating AC's lunch in Victoria, AC need to do something different.
OTOH, the people in charge of tourism need to get their act together and bring the people back. But if AC continues with the minimalist service into YYJ, they might just as well pack it up and hand it over to WestJet.
Westjet doesn't fly YYZ-YYJ.
And ... the fact that the flights have gone from an A319 to the present A321 gives you an idea how well the route is doing. (very well). And with increased capacity this summer over last, it looks like the guys smarter than us think it will do even better.
One of the interesting things noted in the last financial results is that Air Canada's seat mile cost is now the same as Westjet. That would put the 20-25% edge on costs of Rouge over Westjet. If Westjet is thinking about jumping into the YYZ-YYJ market, it's going to be a tough battle ... and get the popcorn out, we have front row seats.
Boeing744 wrote:Actually, WestJet has flown YYZ-YYJ for a number of years seasonally. Sunwing also did it for at least one summer with a stop in Vancouver.
longhauler wrote:You guys must be seeing something that I don't.
I don't see any non-stops this summer on Westjet from YYZ-YYJ.
Boeing744 wrote:longhauler wrote:You guys must be seeing something that I don't.
I don't see any non-stops this summer on Westjet from YYZ-YYJ.
It's not daily, but I picked a random day (July 5th) YYZ-YYJ and it is bookable. Then found a return July 11. So yes, WS is returning to the route this summer.
rampbro wrote:I'd have to say that I agree the WS are eating AC for breakfast in YYJ - otherwise what justifies the decrease in the quality of service.
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:On the link below it says AC operated three times daily last summer. What types were operating the route then?
b6sea wrote:I'm not sure if I'm surprised by this or not. Like you say, YYJ has some premium traffic (especially compared to Kelowna, which is also a smaller market), but I still think most of the traffic to YYJ is leisure, especially folks coming from Eastern Canada.
For the government traffic, a lot of it is probably headed to Ottawa, so maybe they figure it's not much difference transferring in YVR vs YYZ? That said, I don't think government traffic is usually all that significant. If that were the case I think you'd see a nonstop to YOW. My frame of reference is for US states sending people to DC (especially the state of Washington), but I imagine it's not too dissimilar from what happens in Canada. A lot of the government traffic that exists is fairly local with relatively few people traveling from one capital to the other. Further, my understanding is that a lot of the federal government's offices are in Vancouver.
AWACSooner wrote:I'm sorry, but is it just me, or is AC adding Rouge routes right and left lately? I thought they were capped at how many planes/routes this "airline" could fly.
And count me as one who will never step on one of those seat pitch hell planes.
Whiteguy wrote:But your ok with pax flying on the A320s built in the late '80s....
chrisa330 wrote:Whiteguy wrote:But your ok with pax flying on the A320s built in the late '80s....
Not to mention the almost 25 year old B767s that WS are flying.
767333ER wrote:I think it's so funny how people are whining about 1" of seat pitch. The mainline cabins have 31" pitch in economy and the Rouge 767s have 30" pitch. The 1" isn't that huge. I will admit though that any less such as the 29" on the Rouge Airbus fleet is pushing it, but people don't seem to complain when they fly on European short hall jets that have it. If you ask me 30" pitch on a 767 with 18" wide seats that unfortunately hard is better than a 737 with 31" pitch and a 17" wide seat of similar comfort especially when both have the same type of IFE and service. The 767 overall is a better ride than the 737 though.
jimbo737 wrote:Even after 45 years of Southwest leveraging both their face rate and this stage length cost advantage, there are still some who are oblivious to this economic reality.
Whiteguy wrote:Sure, nothing to do with the point though....
neromancer wrote:767333ER wrote:I think it's so funny how people are whining about 1" of seat pitch. The mainline cabins have 31" pitch in economy and the Rouge 767s have 30" pitch. The 1" isn't that huge. I will admit though that any less such as the 29" on the Rouge Airbus fleet is pushing it, but people don't seem to complain when they fly on European short hall jets that have it. If you ask me 30" pitch on a 767 with 18" wide seats that unfortunately hard is better than a 737 with 31" pitch and a 17" wide seat of similar comfort especially when both have the same type of IFE and service. The 767 overall is a better ride than the 737 though.
You must have fairly short legs.
I'm fairly tall (6'1" with a 32" inseam). The 31" seat pitch is barely tolerable for me. Losing an inch of legroom is huge. Losing two inches is practically unworkable to me.
Boeing744 wrote:I was just browsing at some flights to Victoria in July and noticed that Air Canada's direct YYZ-YYJ flights have been switched to Rouge from May 1st onward.
At first it seems like the long-standing early flight at 6am has been switched to mid-day departure with a Rouge A319.
Into July it seems to go up to 2x Rouge with A321s and B763s. This would be a huge increase in capacity on this route.
On the one hand the switch to Rouge does not surprise me too much because Kelowna (which is a similar market and duration) has been Rouge for quite a while now. On the other hand, one might think that Victoria had some more premium (government) traffic.
Any thoughts on this big change?
Dominion301 wrote:
YYJ is the only provincial/territorial capital not directly linked to YOW on at least a seasonal basis. No doubt this has everything to do with YYJ's distance from YOW, resulting in the high # of intermediary connection city options & # of connecting flight options there are (i.e. via YVR, YYC, YEG and YYZ). If YOW can support up to 3x weekly service to the small territorial capitals of YZF & YXY on Air North (which 4N's President in an article a few months ago called their 'best performing route last summer'), then surely there's demand for at least a 3x weekly summer-seasonal nonstop to YYJ. The problem is AC & WS have no incentive whatsoever to serve it given all the above-noted connection points. Couple that with the YOW Airport Authority not exactly having a reputation for innovative air service development, and at the YYJ end likely the same, it makes for the lack of a nonstop. Personally, I think Air North would be the exact airline the airport authorities should contact if the ever want a nonstop link between the two capitals or present this to one of the aspiring real ULCCs to take a hard look at summer-seasonal YOW-YYJ.
jimbo737 wrote:Hey IPFreely:
That's precisely why you issue business news that you don't want people to linger or dwell upon Fridays. So no one will notice. I challenge you to tell me today, Tuesday, what the big business story was last Friday.
And that's the point. It's forgotten and without the benefit of a couple days in the office for analysts to tear the numbers apart before the next completely unrelated file appears on their desk.
People move on to other stories / files and the company issuing the news dodges a bullet.
b6sea wrote:Dominion301 wrote:
YYJ is the only provincial/territorial capital not directly linked to YOW on at least a seasonal basis. No doubt this has everything to do with YYJ's distance from YOW, resulting in the high # of intermediary connection city options & # of connecting flight options there are (i.e. via YVR, YYC, YEG and YYZ). If YOW can support up to 3x weekly service to the small territorial capitals of YZF & YXY on Air North (which 4N's President in an article a few months ago called their 'best performing route last summer'), then surely there's demand for at least a 3x weekly summer-seasonal nonstop to YYJ. The problem is AC & WS have no incentive whatsoever to serve it given all the above-noted connection points. Couple that with the YOW Airport Authority not exactly having a reputation for innovative air service development, and at the YYJ end likely the same, it makes for the lack of a nonstop. Personally, I think Air North would be the exact airline the airport authorities should contact if the ever want a nonstop link between the two capitals or present this to one of the aspiring real ULCCs to take a hard look at summer-seasonal YOW-YYJ.
It's definitely possible that someone (probably AC) could make a 3x weekly, or even a daily YOW-YYJ service work (I'm assuming AC has mainline crews and aircraft based in YOW, but I could be wrong) and I'm sure if they believed the premium was there they would go for it. I don't doubt at all that it is a potentially viable route.
I think the comparison with YZF and YXY is probably not the best considering how remote those cities are, and I imagine Air North's aircraft can run half empty and still be profitable due to cargo, much like Alaska Airlines' routes in Alaska. There's no competition from rail, truck, or ship, so I bet the belly is full to the brim on each of those flights, where a YYJ flight would probably not be (or at least not at the same premium). Also, I imagine virtually all federal government offices for the Yukon and NW Territories are located in their respective capitals unlike BC where a lot of the federal government offices (RCMP Division HQ is in Surrey, Transport Canada in Vancouver, etc etc) are located in the Vancouver area. The exception is obviously military traffic from Esquimalt and a few other small offices in Victoria. Of course the offices in the YT and NWT are smaller, so the amount of traffic is also smaller too, thus potentially making my point moot.
I'm not sure Air North's business model (or aircraft) are geared to run passenger flights between metropolitan centers or to compete with the hub operations of WS and AC, I think providing cargo capacity to Whitehorse (and Yellowknife) is probably a lot more important to them. That's just a guess though.
Again, it seems to me that it comes down to the premiums people are willing to pay for the nonstop flight to YOW vs connecting in YVR, YYC, or YYZ. If there isn't enough government traffic that is willing to pay that premium, the business community in Victoria really isn't enough to pick up the slack, and that leaves a lot of price-sensitive leisure traffic to fill the rest of the plane, so the average of the two may just not factor out for AC (or WS).
That said, now that I've poo-pooed the idea, I would, personally, love to see a YOW-YYJ flight happen.
jimbo737 wrote:Livery announcements or route announcements don't impact the markets so that sort of thing can be released on a Tues, Weds or Thurs in order to maximize media coverage. If the news is good and you want to keep it exposed, release it mid week and hope that it isn't usurped by a major event.
Earnings announcements, especially when there is no monthly traffic data for analysts to chew on, are the only thing analysts and the media can latch on to.
If you want to minimize coverage, and there is only one reason to do that, stick to releasing the news on Friday's before long weekends.
How much real work gets done in your place of employment after about noon on a Friday before a long weekend?
Not much, I'll bet.
jimbo737 wrote:Virtually every Rouge passenger flying on an ancient 767 from YYZ to YYJ that should long since been retired takes a passenger off an AC mainline YYZ-YYC-YYJ flight or an AC YYZ-YVR-YYJ flight
jimbo737 wrote:Air Canada's casm is no where near WJ's casm in spite of the kook-aide that is being liberally distributed in Montreal suggesting that it is so.
jimbo737 wrote:AC's costs were "equal" to WJA's but AC required an ASL of 1,752 miles to do it. WJ did it over 907 miles.
longhauler wrote:SpaceshipDC10 wrote:On the link below it says AC operated three times daily last summer. What types were operating the route then?
One 120 seat A319 and one 146 seat A320 daily, with an additional 120 seat A319 5 times a week.
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:longhauler wrote:SpaceshipDC10 wrote:On the link below it says AC operated three times daily last summer. What types were operating the route then?
One 120 seat A319 and one 146 seat A320 daily, with an additional 120 seat A319 5 times a week.
Alright, so this is an increase of 898 seats each week, or 36% more than during summer '16.
jimbo737 wrote:Oh...absolutely it is because of the longer flying. No question.
But inherent in that is the decline in unit costs because as everyone knows. as stage length increase, unit costs decrease, (as do yields).
The only way to compare airline cost structures is to compare them on an equal stage length, ie if Air Canada's unit costs were 15.42 cents over a 1,592 mile sector, what would their principle competitors costs be over that same length of sector, knowing that it costs them 12.86 cents to fly 895 miles and unit costs drop as stage length increase.
The rasm premium AC has does not negate the casm disadvantage, and every time WJ expands an knocks off another market like YUL-YQB or YUL-BOS, where AC fares crash 65% or more, that rasm advantage gets eroded and eroded and eroded.
jimbo737 wrote:My F350 has similar costs to my Smart Car, but only when I compare costs when I'm driving down hill.
ac7e7 wrote:I am in Victoria every couple of weeks and find the loads to be 80%+. I find very little difference between Westjet and Rouge. I'm not sure what people want from their airlines?
I realize the "in" thing is for people to complain about Air Canada. But their reasons for hating them is mostly fluff. I fly both AC/rouge and Westjet extensively (weekly actually). There is very little difference between the two airlines from an economy seat or service standpoint. I find I get more value flying Air Canada because of upgrades and lounge access.
If the demand is there, AC will switch to mainline. There is likely more demand for mainline service to other markets than to Victoria.
If Air Canada flies a 777 to Victoria and drops prices to fill the aircraft, the haters would accuse them of trying to drive out the competition. There is no winning with them. In fact, I believe most AC haters don't even fly more than once a year. If people really hated them as much as you all claim they do, nobody would fly them. The numbers tell a different story. If the haters actually fly with them regularily, then shame on them. Do us all a favour and put your money where your mouth is.
One poster above said he will not pay for a 29" seat - no problem. Keep in mind that most airlines are reducing their seat pitch. Westjet will likely reduce it further once their shareholders start realizing their cost advantage has been erased.
If you dont like them, dont fly them. My favorite line when I read an AC complaint news story is "I'll never fly them again!" Whatever my friend - you probably fly once a decade so who cares? If you want first class service, buy a first class ticket. If not, take your seat in the back and amuse yourself for a few hours.
Whywhyjay wrote:I've been un-Rouged! It seems they are going back to mainline sooner than planned. I have a booking at the end of August for YYJ-YYZ and return, it was on Rouge 1682, 1683. I was checking the seat map for the flights a couple of weeks ago and noticed the flights (A321) were relatively empty. Then I received an itinerary change and these flights have been changed back to mainline AC190, 191, with a 320 outbound and 319 back. Does anybody know how Rouge loading's have been working out for YYJ? Is it performing poorer than expected? I wonder how they have been doing with the 767 on the mid day flights.
runway23 wrote:Whywhyjay wrote:I've been un-Rouged! It seems they are going back to mainline sooner than planned. I have a booking at the end of August for YYJ-YYZ and return, it was on Rouge 1682, 1683. I was checking the seat map for the flights a couple of weeks ago and noticed the flights (A321) were relatively empty. Then I received an itinerary change and these flights have been changed back to mainline AC190, 191, with a 320 outbound and 319 back. Does anybody know how Rouge loading's have been working out for YYJ? Is it performing poorer than expected? I wonder how they have been doing with the 767 on the mid day flights.
Seems like the Rouge 767s are still there on the morning flight, whereas AC is back on the evening flight. So the route is semi-rouge now.