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A388
Posts: 7548
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:33 pm

guyanam wrote:
A388 wrote:
BonaireFly I know about those Winair flights but those weren't their own flights. I hope they will start flights to Curacao some day, charter flights like guyanam suggest might be more realistic. I hope they do this :)

A388



Winair tried to compete against jets so the SDQ CUR route failed. Now PAWA is on the route. I think summer flights doing PTP FDF CUR might work if properly promoted. I don't see this as a year round route for reasons that you mentioned. CUR should be able to attract visitors who want an alternate to SXM, which does pull in a huge French Antillean visitor base in the summer. Maybe folks from CUR would give FDF a try in the summer as well.


I agree with you guyanam. As long as we get flights from FDF/PTP I'm happy, whether it be charter flights or scheduled flights. Cubana flies to PTP or FDF and to me there's barely demand for such a nonstop flight but it's flown (even if it's at a loss). In my opinion there's not much of any type of tie between Cuba and Guadeloupe or Martinique. I would even dare to say that Curacao has a closer tie to Cuba but we don't get those flights either. I hope this will happen one day.


A388
 
dominicl316
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:59 pm

guyanam wrote:
I think that Air Antilles plans PTP ANU EIS service as an AF code share.
.

Air Antilles Express needs to expand service to STX/STT. They are already licensed to fly to US territories, as they fly to SJU. They would just need to file for additional permits with the US DOT to serve STX/STT.

USVI residents who fear small aircraft would welcome the service with open arms.

I am thinking the following routes can work:

1. PTP-ANU-STT/STX. (similar to the upcoming PTP-ANU-EIS)
2. PTP-DOM-SXM-STT/STX (Air Antilles already does PTP-DOM-SXM, so STT/STX can be a tag-on)

As Air Antilles expands, USVI passengers can use their PTP hub to connect to SLU, if the airline chooses to allow for a same-day connection. St. Lucians make up the largest immigrant group in St. Croix, according to the 2010 US Census. And most of them are still here even considering all the migration from USVI to the US mainland. Hummingbird does not currently fly STX-SLU. The only option to get to SLU is to take LI from SJU or EIS, or head to UVF with an overnight in MIA w/ AA. The occasional handful headed from USVI to BGI and FDF could also use PTP as a hub, if Air Antilles allows for a same-day connection.

Air Antilles can either serve STX/STT as stopovers on the same route, or serve STX/STT separately on different days of the week.

Thoughts?
 
windian425
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:22 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:58 pm

Yes, the reductions to BGI and POS from FLL are to free up an aircraft that can then operate a higher yielding route. B6 was under serious pressure by Wall Street to improve/increase profitably.
 
yoni
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:39 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:06 am

guyanam wrote:
A388 wrote:
BonaireFly I know about those Winair flights but those weren't their own flights. I hope they will start flights to Curacao some day, charter flights like guyanam suggest might be more realistic. I hope they do this :)

A388



Winair tried to compete against jets so the SDQ CUR route failed. Now PAWA is on the route. I think summer flights doing PTP FDF CUR might work if properly promoted. I don't see this as a year round route for reasons that you mentioned. CUR should be able to attract visitors who want an alternate to SXM, which does pull in a huge French Antillean visitor base in the summer. Maybe folks from CUR would give FDF a try in the summer as well.


You have a valid point. Many forgot that the combined population of FDF and PTP is more than 800,000 inhabitants with a significant disposable income. A seasonal flight between CUR and FDF/PTP could also have connecting passengers from PAR. Air Antilles is growing rapidly in the region and I would not be surprised if they try this route at some point.
 
yoni
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:39 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:29 am

dominicl316 wrote:
guyanam wrote:
I think that Air Antilles plans PTP ANU EIS service as an AF code share.
.

Air Antilles Express needs to expand service to STX/STT. They are already licensed to fly to US territories, as they fly to SJU. They would just need to file for additional permits with the US DOT to serve STX/STT.

USVI residents who fear small aircraft would welcome the service with open arms.

I am thinking the following routes can work:

1. PTP-ANU-STT/STX. (similar to the upcoming PTP-ANU-EIS)
2. PTP-DOM-SXM-STT/STX (Air Antilles already does PTP-DOM-SXM, so STT/STX can be a tag-on)

As Air Antilles expands, USVI passengers can use their PTP hub to connect to SLU, if the airline chooses to allow for a same-day connection. St. Lucians make up the largest immigrant group in St. Croix, according to the 2010 US Census. And most of them are still here even considering all the migration from USVI to the US mainland. Hummingbird does not currently fly STX-SLU. The only option to get to SLU is to take LI from SJU or EIS, or head to UVF with an overnight in MIA w/ AA. The occasional handful headed from USVI to BGI and FDF could also use PTP as a hub, if Air Antilles allows for a same-day connection.

Air Antilles can either serve STX/STT as stopovers on the same route, or serve STX/STT separately on different days of the week.

Thoughts?


Even though the regional hub of PTP has been built for easy transfert (FDF plans to built a dedicated terminal for regional flights this year), I don't think that Air Antilles intends to use the PTP hub for the region. It seems that their main priority is to compete with Air Caraïbes on the most popular routes for French Caribbeans. In addition, they don't have enough planes. On a daily basis, FDF-PTP uses 2 out of 5 ATRs and the PTP-SFG uses another one.
 
yoni
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:39 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:48 am

A388 wrote:

I agree with you guyanam. As long as we get flights from FDF/PTP I'm happy, whether it be charter flights or scheduled flights. Cubana flies to PTP or FDF and to me there's barely demand for such a nonstop flight but it's flown (even if it's at a loss). In my opinion there's not much of any type of tie between Cuba and Guadeloupe or Martinique. I would even dare to say that Curacao has a closer tie to Cuba but we don't get those flights either. I hope this will happen one day.
A388


I don't know about the extent of the ties between Curacao and Cuba. But for the French Caribbean, there are definitely ties with Cuba for a long time. French Caribbeans used to go to Cuba for work in the 1900s. There is a strong Cuban community in both islands, some are old immigrants who became French decades ago and others are more recent. In addition, several Cuban and French Caribbean municipalities are sister cities. I don't know much about traffic (unfortunately data aren't available), but Cubana has increased their number of flights per week on both islands. They even have a codeshare with Air Caraïbes. It's safe to assume that there is a significant number of passengers flying between both countries.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:13 am

dominicl316 wrote:
guyanam wrote:
I think that Air Antilles plans PTP ANU EIS service as an AF code share.
.

Air Antilles Express needs to expand service to STX/STT.
Thoughts?



Interesting topic. Number of issues which you can confirm or disagree with.

1. The bulk of the OECS migration into the USVI was in the 60s and the 70s. This is evidenced by the fact that the USVI population increased from just under 40k in 1960 to over 100k by 1980. Since then the population hasn't increased that much. This is due to massive movement to the USA which has offset more recent migration from the DR and the little migration which might still exist from the OECS.

2. A large % of the offspring of these migrants, and even many of the migrants themselves have moved to the mainland. Many of the older migrants have returned home. STT/STX aren't viewed as favorably as they were in the 60s and many of these OECS islands have progressed significantly since then, enticing some to return home.

3. The 2010 census showed SKB/NEV account for 6% of the USVI population, DOM for 5%, and ANU and DR for 4% each with SLU accounting for 3%. The STX economy has been weak for a long time so I suspect that there are fewer newer OECS immigrants there than in STT, which has a more buoyant economy. This will mean that a higher % of the OECS nationals living in STT will have ties to their homelands than is the case for STX. LI has been dropping service to STX for a while now, even more than it did to STT, that is before the sharp cut of about 2 years ago when STT was slashed from 2X/D to 4x/W.

I say this to say that the OECS population in the USVI has aged and isn't as connected to their homelands as they once were. This has clearly impacted LIAT. I remember in the 90s LI ran 4X daily out of STT and 2x daily out of STX during busy periods. The level of travel has declined even faster than the OECS populations in the USVI has. I don't know whether these islands can sustain 50 seat planes any more, though clearly there must be demand for something better than a 9 seat plane.

I think that the best opportunity for the USVI lies with Winair with its 19 seat planes. I think that STT can support at least a daily flight and STX maybe 5x to SXM. From there Winair can feed into their routes to ANU SKB/NEV, and DOM. Winair and Air Antilles work closely together so there is scope for service to points further south. In fact Winair did fly to STT in times past. Not sure if they ever did STX.

Air Antilles also runs its PTP DOM SXM flight onto SJU, this I suspect being especially for DOM. Don't think they are going to drop that for a less lucrative USVI though I can imagine a seamless connection via SXM..

Another idea might be Inter Carib (which appears to be building a hub in EIS) running EIS STT SKB and EIS STT ANU flights. Maybe an EIS STX SLU flight as well.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:22 am

yoni wrote:
[]

You have a valid point. Many forgot that the combined population of FDF and PTP is more than 800,000 inhabitants with a significant disposable income. .



In fact PTP/FDF has the second largest travel market in the Eastern Caribbean behind POS. I think that these islands aren't targeted sufficiently by Caribbean tourist agencies, other than DOM and SLU which have been quite successful. I think that PTP is probably the 2nd or 3rd largest source of visitors into DOM (behind the USA and maybe the UK), and FDF is important into SLU. The ferry helps though..

CUR should look to these islands to offset the sharp drop in arrivals from Venezuela and Brazil. I think that CUR is exotic enough for Antilleans to give it a try having already done SFG/SXM.

In addition you are correct about Air Antilles not wanting to use their ATRs to the USVI. I can see them working with WM to serve these islands though, via the SXM hub.
 
jmdc861
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Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:05 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:45 pm

windian425 wrote:
Yes, the reductions to BGI and POS from FLL are to free up an aircraft that can then operate a higher yielding route. B6 was under serious pressure by Wall Street to improve/increase profitably.


Jet Blue being under pressure from Wall Street is nothing new. 2015 was when that pressure peaked, resulting in a change of CEO in February 2016 as well as the announcement of reduced leg room, etc. Bottom line is that despite great loads on FLL-BGI and FLL-POS B6 had to give away their product often at far lower pricing than even BW charged (in case of POS).
 
baje427
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:06 pm

jmdc861 wrote:
windian425 wrote:
Yes, the reductions to BGI and POS from FLL are to free up an aircraft that can then operate a higher yielding route. B6 was under serious pressure by Wall Street to improve/increase profitably.


Jet Blue being under pressure from Wall Street is nothing new. 2015 was when that pressure peaked, resulting in a change of CEO in February 2016 as well as the announcement of reduced leg room, etc. Bottom line is that despite great loads on FLL-BGI and FLL-POS B6 had to give away their product often at far lower pricing than even BW charged (in case of POS).


I do wonder if they would not be better placed putting the E190 on the BGI-FLL route.
 
beeweel15
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:39 pm

baje427 wrote:

I do wonder if they would not be better placed putting the E190 on the BGI-FLL route.


Would be ok for Passengers but baggage wise no
 
User avatar
817Dreamliiner
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:42 pm

Air Caraibes has taken delivery of its first Airbus A350 and is current flying between PTP and FDF, the screenshot below shows it just passing Montserrat :) :

Image

https://fr24.com/FWI350/c9e7a23
I'll wake from the dream, To keep and relive, 'Cause life it is a dream, And dream's on a... BREAK!
 
A388
Posts: 7548
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:27 pm

Yoni, thanks for your replies. Can you see to it that Air Antilles starts charter flights to Curacao with their brandnew ATR72-600? :D


Regarding the first Air Caraibes A350-900, I see they have added the french flag to the livery so now we can definitely put to rest the argument whether Air Caraibes is Caribbean or French seeing that some members (still) don't know they aren't Caribbean. A big thanks goes to member 817Dreamliiner who keeps us up to date with the aviation too :)


A388
 
guyanam
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:41 pm

A388 wrote:
, I see they have added the french flag to the livery so now we can definitely put to rest the argument whether Air Caraibes is Caribbean or French seeing that some members (still) don't know they aren't Caribbean. A big thanks goes to member 817Dreamliiner who keeps us up to date with the aviation too :)


A388


I think that some connected to the French Antilles don't have a clue about the differences between their situation and even that of other non independent Caribbean territories like Grand Cayman, or the former Netherlands Antilles.

All of the resource and developmental limitations of PTP/FDF/CAY are offset by the fact that they are fully integrated into France. On their own they wouldn't be better off, with the high wages certainly NOT being an indicator of the success of these French territories, nor the success of the French Caribbean carriers being a sign that management competencies are superior within the French Antilles.

The French Antilles relinquished a great deal of autonomy for the advantages of full integration into one of the largest global economies. Not all wanted to do this, or were even given a chance if that is what they preferred to do. The Dutch and the British had no interest in being burdened by supporting impoverished territories, though the French felt that they had a need to do this. De Gaulle reacted badly when some former French colonies want to do on their own. The British jumped for joy when such a request was made.

Yes we do know that PTP and FDF are part of the Caribbean and their cultural orientation is indeed Caribbean, but the reality is that Air Caraibes (and maybe even Air Antilles) are integrated into France itself and thus gain certain advantages that Insel certainly doesn't have.

So one cannot look at Air Caraibes and then compare it to Caribbean Airlines as some were doing. PY struggles with its AMS PBM route, despite the large Suriname population in the Netherlands. So one cannot expect them to have the large transatlantic operations of Air Caraibes. They cannot afford to get new planes, and don't have the ability to build a wide body fleet with critical mass for viable operations.
 
yoni
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:39 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:09 am

guyanam wrote:
A388 wrote:
, I see they have added the french flag to the livery so now we can definitely put to rest the argument whether Air Caraibes is Caribbean or French seeing that some members (still) don't know they aren't Caribbean. A big thanks goes to member 817Dreamliiner who keeps us up to date with the aviation too :)


A388


I think that some connected to the French Antilles don't have a clue about the differences between their situation and even that of other non independent Caribbean territories like Grand Cayman, or the former Netherlands Antilles.

All of the resource and developmental limitations of PTP/FDF/CAY are offset by the fact that they are fully integrated into France. On their own they wouldn't be better off, with the high wages certainly NOT being an indicator of the success of these French territories, nor the success of the French Caribbean carriers being a sign that management competencies are superior within the French Antilles.

The French Antilles relinquished a great deal of autonomy for the advantages of full integration into one of the largest global economies. Not all wanted to do this, or were even given a chance if that is what they preferred to do. The Dutch and the British had no interest in being burdened by supporting impoverished territories, though the French felt that they had a need to do this. De Gaulle reacted badly when some former French colonies want to do on their own. The British jumped for joy when such a request was made.

Yes we do know that PTP and FDF are part of the Caribbean and their cultural orientation is indeed Caribbean, but the reality is that Air Caraibes (and maybe even Air Antilles) are integrated into France itself and thus gain certain advantages that Insel certainly doesn't have.

So one cannot look at Air Caraibes and then compare it to Caribbean Airlines as some were doing. PY struggles with its AMS PBM route, despite the large Suriname population in the Netherlands. So one cannot expect them to have the large transatlantic operations of Air Caraibes. They cannot afford to get new planes, and don't have the ability to build a wide body fleet with critical mass for viable operations.


While I agree with the rest of your comment, the French Caribbean did not relinquish something they never had at the first place. When there were still colonies before 1946, they didn't have much autonomy as both territories were managed by French governors reporting to Paris, even worse the French Caribbean were considered third-class citizens with all the power in the hands of few békés, the white aristocratic class and slave-owner descendants most of whom would have preferred full autonomy to preserve their advantages. Both islands have much more autonomy now than before, even if it is much less than similar overseas territories in the region. The French Caribbean became an integral part of France at the request of Aimé Cesaire. Atfer the WWII, the economies of both islands collapsed completely because of the blockade and corruption was widespread. Cesaire, even though he would have preferred a full independence, realized that the departementlization was the fastest way for growth and got most people out of poverty. He also pointed out that the French republic slogan " Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" should apply to all French citizens, not the White ones only, and especially those from the French Caribbean who fought for the republic during the war. France agreed because there were territories with a small population size.
As far as de Gaulle is concerned, he is the one who granted independence to most French colonies in Africa and even Algeria in the late 50s and early 60s. He did not start wars, but ended them. His predecessors actually wanted to keep the French empire intact and used force to quash any rebellions.

Of course, Air Caraïbes is a French company as it is located in France. Nobody is saying that it is from a Caribbean nation as both Martinique and Guadeloupe are French departements with the French flag as their unique flag. There are no recognized regional flags like anywhere else in France, except in Corsica and the French overseas territories of New Caledonia, Wallis-Futuna and French Polynesia which all have their own flags in addition to the French flag. But Air Caraïbes is a Caribbean-focused airline with most of its staff coming from the French Caribbean and located either in Guadeloupe or Martinique. Personally I do consider them as a Caribbean airline like Air Antilles. If others perceived them differently, it's fine.

The new A359 is a game changer for TX as they will be able to increase their offering by 7 %. Right now, TX is flying up to 3 times a day in PTP and FDF from PAR. It would be the same during the peak period in the summer. I am quite disappointed by the layout of this new plane. It's really cramped with 10 seats abreast in Y, 9 in premium and 6 in business. Very odd choice ! The seating on AF's 777-300ER is more comfortable as the plane is larger than A359.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:53 pm

yoni wrote:
[
While I agree with the rest of your comment, the French Caribbean did not relinquish something they never had at the first place.
The new A359 is a game changer for TX as they will be able to increase their offering by 7 %. Right now, TX is flying up to 3 times a day in PTP and FDF from PAR. It would be the same during the peak period in the summer. I am quite disappointed by the layout of this new plane. It's really cramped with 10 seats abreast in Y, 9 in premium and 6 in business. Very odd choice ! The seating on AF's 777-300ER is more comfortable as the plane is larger than A359.



I should have stated the opportunity for greater autonomy. Post WWII the British and French colonies were in exactly the same place with the same problems. In both sets of colonies the emerging black and mixed middle classes wanted greater involvement in governance, and the masses wanted stronger labor laws and better access to decent living standards. A white plantocracy dominated in both cases.

One group thought that a solution was full incorporation into France to assure their equity as French citizens. The other sought greater autonomy to have greater freedom over measures that they would take to solve their problems. No doubt the attraction of greater economic ties with the USA/Canada and the fact that the UK was a declining power played a role. The UK was destroyed by WWII and was not interested in providing largesse to impoverished distant islands. Maybe the fact that France was occupied by the Germans, so not as damaged as the UK was, so was in better shape post WWII, becomes a factor. France was quite willing to subsidize these decaying plantation societies, providing massive public sector support as their core export base became diminished. UK not so.

It is what it is. The French islands look "richer" because of largesse from France, but then their economies are quite weak if we subtract this support. It is a gamble that they took that France would indefinitely continue this level of support. France now has its problems so we will see what the future will bring. The former British colonies are on their own, especially now that preferential access to the EU for their agricultural products is over. So they already know how to sail those stormy seas of global competition, even if the results aren't always what one would wish them to be. Some obviously doing better than others, with The Bahamas, and until recently Barbados, doing much better than say Jamaica and Guyana.

I agree with you. in the seating. Flying long distances in a cramp space must be uncomfortable, but then I guess that AF does the same thing. PY cannot offer cramped space on its AMS PBM route as this would drive every one to KL.
 
yoni
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:39 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:00 am

guyanam wrote:
It is a gamble that they took that France would indefinitely continue this level of support. France now has its problems so we will see what the future will bring.


Agreed. At this time, no French political parties support independence for these islands, not even Le Pen. It would be very difficult to grant independence to both islands as their status as French departments is enshrined in the constitution that specifically states that France is one country indivisible (it's not the case for other French overseas territories such New Caledonia or French Polynesia who can become independent quickly if they wish) You are probably not aware that the French government has reduced their budget allocated to all local governments including the French Caribbean departments for several years. French local governments (departments and regions) are not allowed to have deficits and have no other choices than to cut services or increase local taxes to balance their own budget. This is what happened in Martinique and Guadeloupe. They now understand that their economic growth relies more on their ability to compete with their neighbours in the Caribbean than in Europe. Both islands are currently starting to change their economic model. These painful changes will cause many to lose their jobs or their benefits.

It's nice to see that both Air Caraïbes and Air Antilles are playing their part with an increased presence in the Caribbean region.
 
guyanam
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Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:27 am

yoni wrote:
guyanam wrote:


It's nice to see that both Air Caraïbes and Air Antilles are playing their part with an increased presence in the Caribbean region.



Yes Air Antilles' expansion is of vital interest given LI's problems. DOM is quite happy with their service to SXM. And I think that their code shares with AF help both SLU and BGI tap into the French market.

Air Caraibes is a Caribbean themed French carrier, much as if BA set up an affiliate, started flights to the Caribbean and then had a Caribbean themed ambience. It is indeed nice that various carriers like JetBlue are also providing more airlift, allowing better access to the various tourism markets.

Not sure what the French Antilles export to the rest of the Caribbean. I do know that the OECS view them more as a market for their products and a source of tourism. This is why Martinique is now an associate member of the OECS and I assume that Guadeloupe will be at some point.

Given the high costs in the French Antilles I am not sure how competitive they are into these other markets. The only area I can see is the use of the tertiary level hospital facilities in these islands by citizens of other OECS nations. In addition the French Antilles is a vehicle that is used to allow French technical assistance to be funneled through to the OECS.

Also with the public sector absorbing more than 40% of the labor force these islands are quite vulnerable. Can the local governments support this?
 
ryan78
Posts: 242
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:24 am

Does anyone know how PAWA Dominicana is doing as of late, new routes or increasing frequencies? They've added a few new destinations recently including SJU at x6 weekly and MIA at x12 weekly. Any news on when that 757 is coming online and when the JFK flights will start?

Also I noticed on planespotters.net that there is a 767-300ER listed in their fleet as "due". Looks like it is coming from sister company SBA Airlines. Any plans or routes for that bird or will it likely be put on the SDQ-JFK route once they start operations?

I hope PAWA can expand in the Caribbean, they've been the only airline to come out of the DR and not fall flat on their face in recent memory. Seems they have a solid business plan and some good investor backing, and hopefully a short term fleet renewal plan as those mad dogs are getting up there in age.
 
yoni
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:39 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:07 am

guyanam wrote:
Given the high costs in the French Antilles I am not sure how competitive they are into these other markets. The only area I can see is the use of the tertiary level hospital facilities in these islands by citizens of other OECS nations. In addition the French Antilles is a vehicle that is used to allow French technical assistance to be funneled through to the OECS.

Also with the public sector absorbing more than 40% of the labor force these islands are quite vulnerable. Can the local governments support this?


Much of this labour force depends on the French public sector, especially health, education and tax collections offices, not local governments. That will not change. The objective is not to compete directly with their neighbours. It's not possible due to the high cost of living. The real challenge is to transition from low value-added activities to a higher value-added economy. One of the ways to achieve this is to increase connectivity. That's why local governments and the French one are expanding ports and airports and airlines are opening new routes within the Caribbean.
 
A388
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:45 pm

Just an update regarding the developments at Insel Air. According to local newspapers they will only fly between the islands of the Dutch Caribbean starting tomorrow. This means AUA, CUR, BON and SXM. They still only have two Fokker 50's to their disposal. They are currently also evaluating whether they will keep or close their Aruba division, Insel Air Aruba as all those aircraft are grounded. Because of all this and as I expected they will go back to the basics with this small operation. This is a good move in my opinion but I'm still skeptical about their survival, especially when looking at their old aircraft fleet. Their MD80's must go in my opinion but those Fokkers also because those are also getting old and getting parts for these aircraft already is very hard to come by. The problem is if they have the money to replace their aircraft fleet. I don't know. The Dash-8-Q400 will be a good aircraft for them to do regional flights within the Caribbean but there might also be cheaper ATR42's/ATR72's on the secondhand market. My only issue with older (first generation) ATR's is similar to the Fokkers, they are slightly newer but still old too. I don't know how the spare parts market is for the Dash-8-Q400 but I think it is still reasonably good. That's just my hunch.

A388
 
baje427
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:32 pm

The Q400 would only be good on the AUA CUR-SXM routes and also regional routes but I dont think it would be good on the AUA-CUR routes. Also I cant imagine it will be feasible running the MD80's on the AUA-CUA-BON routes.


A388 wrote:
Just an update regarding the developments at Insel Air. According to local newspapers they will only fly between the islands of the Dutch Caribbean starting tomorrow. This means AUA, CUR, BON and SXM. They still only have two Fokker 50's to their disposal. They are currently also evaluating whether they will keep or close their Aruba division, Insel Air Aruba as all those aircraft are grounded. Because of all this and as I expected they will go back to the basics with this small operation. This is a good move in my opinion but I'm still skeptical about their survival, especially when looking at their old aircraft fleet. Their MD80's must go in my opinion but those Fokkers also because those are also getting old and getting parts for these aircraft already is very hard to come by. The problem is if they have the money to replace their aircraft fleet. I don't know. The Dash-8-Q400 will be a good aircraft for them to do regional flights within the Caribbean but there might also be cheaper ATR42's/ATR72's on the secondhand market. My only issue with older (first generation) ATR's is similar to the Fokkers, they are slightly newer but still old too. I don't know how the spare parts market is for the Dash-8-Q400 but I think it is still reasonably good. That's just my hunch.

A388
 
A388
Posts: 7548
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:15 pm

I totally agree with you baje427. However, if they only operate twice a day to each (AUA and BON) it might lower the cost even though it probably still will be too big for those routes. The best would be for them to go for the ATR42 and maybe a mix of ATR42 and ATR72 to make the fleet a bit more flexible in terms of capacities offered for the longer routes. In any case these shouldn't be too old either. Otherwise they won't be much different from the Fokker 50's because of their age.

Another option would be going for a Twin Otter to fly between the ABC islands and the Q400 for the longer regional routes.


A388
 
guyanam
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:29 pm

yoni wrote:
Much of this labour force depends on the French public sector, especially health, education and tax collections offices, not local governments. That will not change. The objective is not to compete directly with their neighbours. It's not possible due to the high cost of living. The real challenge is to transition from low value-added activities to a higher value-added economy. One of the ways to achieve this is to increase connectivity. That's why local governments and the French one are expanding ports and airports and airlines are opening new routes within the Caribbean.


40% of the labor force in the public sector seems high. For France overall it is 20%. So there is vulnerability, whether at the national or local gov't level. Despite the open access that Antilleans have to job opportunities in the EU (not just France, but even in Germany) unemployment is quite high. Double that of Barbados. Equivalent to that of St Lucia.

Not sure what value added you are talking about, Statistics indicate that people in the French Antilles aren't more educated than those in Barbados, and of course there is the language issue. Healthcare seems to be the only area as the tertiary level care is vastly superior even to Barbados and Trinidad. The question of course being how do people pay for these services. The only other avenue is for French technical assistance to be rooted via these islands, maybe allowing some spin off in assorted areas of research. But then I don't see the English speaking islands wanting a "colonial" type of arrangement either, so any benefits will have to be spread amongst the islands, and not just confined to the French ones.

I am not sure what opportunities for hubs exist. Aside from travel to DOM and SLU, connected to PTP and FDF by ferries, there isn't a heavy amount of travel between the Antilles and the rest of the Eastern Caribbean. I can see the islands acting as hubs for travel out of France, but then I don't know that there is a huge amount of travel out of France to SLU and BGI either. I can see Air Antilles playing a somewhat larger role, subject to route right considerations, but not enough to displace the role that BGI plays as a regional hub. BGI is a hub mainly because it has huge O&D activity with its neighbors.

The problem of the dependent territories, aside from the tiny UK ones, with their acute labor shortages, is that their labor forces are expensive, but not necessarily more educated or skilled than those of competing nations. This is the Puerto Rico problem and yes their attempts to be an airline hub failed, as they couldn't compete against MIA.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:40 pm

A388 wrote:
I totally agree with you baje427. However, if they only operate twice a day to each (AUA and BON) it might lower the cost even though it probably still will be too big for those routes. The best would be for them to go for the ATR42 and maybe a mix of ATR42 and ATR72 to make the fleet a bit more flexible in terms of capacities offered for the longer routes. In any case these shouldn't be too old either. Otherwise they won't be much different from the Fokker 50's because of their age.

Another option would be going for a Twin Otter to fly between the ABC islands and the Q400 for the longer regional routes.


A388



I assume that Insel has conceded the CUR/SXM to SDQ/PAP to PAWA. As aged as those PAWA planes are folks prefer them to props as Winair/Air Caraibes found out when they tried to compete against Insel.

I understand that they hope to resume flights to PBM and MIA, which were Insel's other profitable routes. Not sure what's left for them to MIA as AA has definitely taken that market. COPA and PTY will replace CUR as a regional hub for flights to places like KIN, POS. and GEO. This will severely impact CUR as a regional shopping destination as folks use PTY and SXM instead.
 
A388
Posts: 7548
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:18 pm

You're right guyanam. AA still hasn't taken Insel Air's market to MIA as Insel Air mostly carried transfer passengers from Venezuela and other South American destinations to MIA. AA doesn't cater to that market. Most locals who travel from CUR to MIA were flying AA anyways. I think PAWA will now be carrying the transfer passengers that normally used Insel Air and probably the small amount of local passengers who do use Insel Air to MIA. I think PAWA is benefiting the most of the absence of Insel Air now.

A388
 
TriniA340
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:07 am

ryan78 wrote:
Does anyone know how PAWA Dominicana is doing as of late, new routes or increasing frequencies? They've added a few new destinations recently including SJU at x6 weekly and MIA at x12 weekly. Any news on when that 757 is coming online and when the JFK flights will start?.


Will post a PAWA update as soon as I can, watch this space...lol

Caribbean's wet-lease of Swiftair's EC-KUL is over, and it has left Trinidad. All ATRs are in regular service.
Also, Calypso Rose will get a CAL plane named after her. Hope this isn't too old news.
· longer · larger · farther · faster · higher · quieter · smoother ·
 
guyanam
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:14 am

TriniA340 wrote:
ryan78 wrote:
Does anyone know how PAWA Dominicana is doing as of late, new routes or increasing frequencies? They've added a few new destinations recently including SJU at x6 weekly and MIA at x12 weekly. Any news on when that 757 is coming online and when the JFK flights will start?.


Will post a PAWA update as soon as I can, watch this space...lol

Caribbean's wet-lease of Swiftair's EC-KUL is over, and it has left Trinidad. All ATRs are in regular service.
Also, Calypso Rose will get a CAL plane named after her. Hope this isn't too old news.



Rose being recognized isn't old news. Congrats. When will Sparrow get his plane? These are icons who should be recognized before they go to the Great Beyond. We already had a scare with Sparrow. Not sure if the youngest generation know these folks but I do know that every one older than 30 does. Was at the SKB Carifesta in 2000 and the young teens who were there wouldn't let the man off the stage, even though his classics would be from their grandparent's days.

A question that many have here is when does BW plan to paint its white tail planes? They look quite cheap when landing.

Looking forward to news on PAWA. Their Tripadvisor reviews aren't too reassuring.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:21 am

A388 wrote:
You're right guyanam. AA still hasn't taken Insel Air's market to MIA as Insel Air mostly carried transfer passengers from Venezuela and other South American destinations to MIA. AA doesn't cater to that market. Most locals who travel from CUR to MIA were flying AA anyways. I think PAWA will now be carrying the transfer passengers that normally used Insel Air and probably the small amount of local passengers who do use Insel Air to MIA. I think PAWA is benefiting the most of the absence of Insel Air now.

A388



Think that Insel will be a "domestic" Dutch Caribbean airline then. ABC islands and also to SXM and PBM. PAWA must be so happy with this as they now have SDQ and PAP to themselves.

I fear that CUR has lost its role as a hub, which will have some economic impact. Those who shop there might go elsewhere. I have heard that CUR has had its challenges (unlike AUA), resulting in significant migration to the Netherlands where some don't seem to like them (drug/crime issues). This isn't going to help.

I think that COPA must have taken away must of the in-transit business that PAWA didn't gobble up. AV will take the Colombia business. I guess Manaus is over. Pity as CUR's airlines played a tremendous role in allowing CUR as a hub and as a shopping alternate to MIA.
 
yoni
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:39 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:13 am

guyanam wrote:
40% of the labor force in the public sector seems high. For France overall it is 20%. So there is vulnerability, whether at the national or local gov't level. Despite the open access that Antilleans have to job opportunities in the EU (not just France, but even in Germany) unemployment is quite high. Double that of Barbados. Equivalent to that of St Lucia.

Not sure what value added you are talking about, Statistics indicate that people in the French Antilles aren't more educated than those in Barbados, and of course there is the language issue. Healthcare seems to be the only area as the tertiary level care is vastly superior even to Barbados and Trinidad. The question of course being how do people pay for these services. The only other avenue is for French technical assistance to be rooted via these islands, maybe allowing some spin off in assorted areas of research. But then I don't see the English speaking islands wanting a "colonial" type of arrangement either, so any benefits will have to be spread amongst the islands, and not just confined to the French ones.

I am not sure what opportunities for hubs exist. Aside from travel to DOM and SLU, connected to PTP and FDF by ferries, there isn't a heavy amount of travel between the Antilles and the rest of the Eastern Caribbean. I can see the islands acting as hubs for travel out of France, but then I don't know that there is a huge amount of travel out of France to SLU and BGI either. I can see Air Antilles playing a somewhat larger role, subject to route right considerations, but not enough to displace the role that BGI plays as a regional hub. BGI is a hub mainly because it has huge O&D activity with its neighbors.

The problem of the dependent territories, aside from the tiny UK ones, with their acute labor shortages, is that their labor forces are expensive, but not necessarily more educated or skilled than those of competing nations. This is the Puerto Rico problem and yes their attempts to be an airline hub failed, as they couldn't compete against MIA.


I agree with you. It's a complex issue. Right now, locals all agree that the current model is not working for most people, especially the younger generations, and should be changed. And they have full support from the French government to change it for the first time (probably because the French Caribbean voters are key to win close presidential elections). We will see what the future holds. BTW, there are already many partnerships or cooperation between the French Caribbean islands and some Caribbean nations in terms of R&D or agriculture or security. France has very good relationships with most Caribbeans nations. Actually many would like to see France with its overseas territories in the region to be much more involved.

As far as the hubs in FDF and PTP, I don't it see happening soon. Airport fees are too high (even though Norwegian got a special deal). With a free zone status for these airports, it could work.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:30 pm

yoni wrote:
[. BTW, there are already many partnerships or cooperation between the French Caribbean islands and some Caribbean nations in terms of R&D or agriculture or security. France has very good relationships with most Caribbeans nations. Actually many would like to see France with its overseas territories in the region to be much more involved.

.


The OECS and CARICOM welcome more involvement from any number of nations, especially those who can offer markets or access to technical/financial assistance. Maybe the exit of the UK from the EU might lead to a notion that France can replace them as the main advocate for CARICOM/Cariforum within the EU.

This is why FDF is now an associate member of the OECS, though they cannot be a full member as they aren't a sovereign state, Montserrat being the only non sovereign full member. FDF/PTP face the same problems as do the OECS/Barbados which is why there is a mutually recognized need for cooperation. Unlike times past the French gov't actually and actively encourages such cooperation.

HOWEVER the DOMs still require visas from Caribbean citizens, other than those from T&T, DOM and SLU. You will note that France does NOT require visas of citizens from ANU, SKB, GND, or BGI even though PTP and FDF do.

It seems to me as if the DOMs want closer cooperation they ought to align their visa requirements with that of France. In fact the only people from the English speaking Caribbean likely to want to illegally remain in those islands will be those from DOM/SLU, who are among the few who don't require visas (T&T being the other). It appears to me that PTP/FDF need to deal with this issue if they do indeed want to increase cooperation. I have stated many times that FDF/PTP have more in common with their neighbors than they do with France, whether one looks at cultural, social, or developmental issues.
 
dominicl316
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:45 pm

guyanam wrote:
dominicl316 wrote:
guyanam wrote:
I think that Air Antilles plans PTP ANU EIS service as an AF code share.
.

Air Antilles Express needs to expand service to STX/STT.
Thoughts?


Interesting topic. Number of issues which you can confirm or disagree with.

1. The bulk of the OECS migration into the USVI was in the 60s and the 70s. This is evidenced by the fact that the USVI population increased from just under 40k in 1960 to over 100k by 1980. Since then the population hasn't increased that much. This is due to massive movement to the USA which has offset more recent migration from the DR and the little migration which might still exist from the OECS.

2. A large % of the offspring of these migrants, and even many of the migrants themselves have moved to the mainland. Many of the older migrants have returned home. STT/STX aren't viewed as favorably as they were in the 60s and many of these OECS islands have progressed significantly since then, enticing some to return home.

3. The 2010 census showed SKB/NEV account for 6% of the USVI population, DOM for 5%, and ANU and DR for 4% each with SLU accounting for 3%. The STX economy has been weak for a long time so I suspect that there are fewer newer OECS immigrants there than in STT, which has a more buoyant economy. This will mean that a higher % of the OECS nationals living in STT will have ties to their homelands than is the case for STX. LI has been dropping service to STX for a while now, even more than it did to STT, that is before the sharp cut of about 2 years ago when STT was slashed from 2X/D to 4x/W.

I say this to say that the OECS population in the USVI has aged and isn't as connected to their homelands as they once were. This has clearly impacted LIAT. I remember in the 90s LI ran 4X daily out of STT and 2x daily out of STX during busy periods. The level of travel has declined even faster than the OECS populations in the USVI has. I don't know whether these islands can sustain 50 seat planes any more, though clearly there must be demand for something better than a 9 seat plane.

I think that the best opportunity for the USVI lies with Winair with its 19 seat planes. I think that STT can support at least a daily flight and STX maybe 5x to SXM. From there Winair can feed into their routes to ANU SKB/NEV, and DOM. Winair and Air Antilles work closely together so there is scope for service to points further south. In fact Winair did fly to STT in times past. Not sure if they ever did STX.

Air Antilles also runs its PTP DOM SXM flight onto SJU, this I suspect being especially for DOM. Don't think they are going to drop that for a less lucrative USVI though I can imagine a seamless connection via SXM..

Another idea might be Inter Carib (which appears to be building a hub in EIS) running EIS STT SKB and EIS STT ANU flights. Maybe an EIS STX SLU flight as well.



I just remembered.... can WinAir even serve STT/STX? They are based in SXM, which the FAA designated as a Category 2 country, so they can't initiate additional direct service to any US destinations. However, Guadeloupe is Category 1. Could Air Antilles consistently fill a PTP-DOM-ANU-SXM-STT-STX-SXM-ANU-DOM-PTP route on one of their ATRs?
 
A388
Posts: 7548
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:00 am

I agree with you guyanam yes. Insel Air for the time being will only fly within the Dutch Caribbean. The hub function of Curacao has now indeed be affected by the lack of the Insel Air flights. Hopefully this hub function will be back soon.


Cheers,

A388
 
guyanam
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:27 am

dominicl316 wrote:
[.
I just remembered.... can WinAir even serve STT/STX? They are based in SXM, which the FAA designated as a Category 2 country, so they can't initiate additional direct service to any US destinations. However, Guadeloupe is Category 1. Could Air Antilles consistently fill a PTP-DOM-ANU-SXM-STT-STX-SXM-ANU-DOM-PTP route on one of their ATRs?



Think that yoni said that Air Antilles has their ATRs tied up on their existing routes. I assume that they will not be able to operate WM planes as 3S flights.

So the best option might be Inter Carib running EIS STT SKB and EIS STT ANU and EIS STX SLU. Think that Seaborne can handle DOM as their flights are better timed to connect thru SJU.

I have made note of the fact that the Antigua PM says that he agrees with LI dropping unprofitable routes and I haven't seen any comments from any one of the OECS, aside from LI press releases. It appears as if the USVI is no longer of interest to people living in ANU or SKB. We haven't even heard any other airline suggesting that they might look at the routes.

Seaborne struggles to SKB (I suspect they get a subsidy) and had to drop ANU. Maybe if they ran flights via the USVI they can boost their loads somewhat.
 
303dk
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:00 am

dominicl316 wrote:
guyanam wrote:
dominicl316 wrote:
Air Antilles Express needs to expand service to STX/STT.
Thoughts?


Interesting topic. Number of issues which you can confirm or disagree with.

1. The bulk of the OECS migration into the USVI was in the 60s and the 70s. This is evidenced by the fact that the USVI population increased from just under 40k in 1960 to over 100k by 1980. Since then the population hasn't increased that much. This is due to massive movement to the USA which has offset more recent migration from the DR and the little migration which might still exist from the OECS.

2. A large % of the offspring of these migrants, and even many of the migrants themselves have moved to the mainland. Many of the older migrants have returned home. STT/STX aren't viewed as favorably as they were in the 60s and many of these OECS islands have progressed significantly since then, enticing some to return home.

3. The 2010 census showed SKB/NEV account for 6% of the USVI population, DOM for 5%, and ANU and DR for 4% each with SLU accounting for 3%. The STX economy has been weak for a long time so I suspect that there are fewer newer OECS immigrants there than in STT, which has a more buoyant economy. This will mean that a higher % of the OECS nationals living in STT will have ties to their homelands than is the case for STX. LI has been dropping service to STX for a while now, even more than it did to STT, that is before the sharp cut of about 2 years ago when STT was slashed from 2X/D to 4x/W.

I say this to say that the OECS population in the USVI has aged and isn't as connected to their homelands as they once were. This has clearly impacted LIAT. I remember in the 90s LI ran 4X daily out of STT and 2x daily out of STX during busy periods. The level of travel has declined even faster than the OECS populations in the USVI has. I don't know whether these islands can sustain 50 seat planes any more, though clearly there must be demand for something better than a 9 seat plane.

I think that the best opportunity for the USVI lies with Winair with its 19 seat planes. I think that STT can support at least a daily flight and STX maybe 5x to SXM. From there Winair can feed into their routes to ANU SKB/NEV, and DOM. Winair and Air Antilles work closely together so there is scope for service to points further south. In fact Winair did fly to STT in times past. Not sure if they ever did STX.

Air Antilles also runs its PTP DOM SXM flight onto SJU, this I suspect being especially for DOM. Don't think they are going to drop that for a less lucrative USVI though I can imagine a seamless connection via SXM..

Another idea might be Inter Carib (which appears to be building a hub in EIS) running EIS STT SKB and EIS STT ANU flights. Maybe an EIS STX SLU flight as well.



I just remembered.... can WinAir even serve STT/STX? They are based in SXM, which the FAA designated as a Category 2 country, so they can't initiate additional direct service to any US destinations. However, Guadeloupe is Category 1. Could Air Antilles consistently fill a PTP-DOM-ANU-SXM-STT-STX-SXM-ANU-DOM-PTP route on one of their ATRs?


I honestly think that you'll see STT-SDQ before someone tries STT-ANU again. The VFR and more and more business traffic is that way.
 
jm02
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:34 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:28 pm

Don't know if it has already been reported but Virgin Atlantic will be operating to Bridgetown from Heathrow, twice weekly, Tue and Sat starting December 12, 2017. A330. This aircraft will be configured with 33 Upper Class, 48 Premium Economy and 185 Economy seats.
 
johnwest
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:32 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:37 pm

A388 wrote:
I totally agree with you baje427. However, if they only operate twice a day to each (AUA and BON) it might lower the cost even though it probably still will be too big for those routes. The best would be for them to go for the ATR42 and maybe a mix of ATR42 and ATR72 to make the fleet a bit more flexible in terms of capacities offered for the longer routes. In any case these shouldn't be too old either. Otherwise they won't be much different from the Fokker 50's because of their age.

Another option would be going for a Twin Otter to fly between the ABC islands and the Q400 for the longer regional routes.


A388

Lol. Please dont go there. Twin otters?? To slow
 
johnwest
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:32 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:41 pm

Anybody knows anything about Aruba Airlines expansion plans?seems like the signed some skyworks capital for expansions. Furthermore I also saw 2 erj145 on order on Wikipedia.
 
johnwest
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:32 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:42 pm

johnwest wrote:
Anybody knows anything about Aruba Airlines expansion plans?seems like the signed some skyworks capital for expansions. Furthermore I also saw 2 erj145 on order on Wikipedia.


They signed a deal with skywork capital for expansion
 
A388
Posts: 7548
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:23 pm

Johnwest why are you asking a question here and answering it by replying to your own question?

About the twin otters, contrary to what you say the twin otters are perfect to fly between Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao.

A388
 
johnwest
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:32 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:09 pm

It's was a corrected type error. Just want to see if anybody has more inside information on this
 
johnwest
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:32 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:13 pm

A388 wrote:
Johnwest why are you asking a question here and answering it by replying to your own question?

About the twin otters, contrary to what you say the twin otters are perfect to fly between Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao.

A388

They are not. Limited payload is one of the main problems that Dca had with this type. I can notice that your missing pratical aviation knowledge a388. Its no service to your clients especially on the 60 nm segment to Aruba. To slow.
 
TriniA340
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:12 pm

Dominican Republic aviation update #1:

PAWA Domimicana currently operates to MIA, HAV, SJU, PAP, CUR, AUA, SXM & ANU from SDQ. The airline plans to slowly add more destinations in 2017 to JFK, KIN & POS. Currently, PAWA has a fleet of four (160-seat) MD-83, one (160-seat) MD-82 and one (109-seat) MD-87, with plans to add a pair of Boeing 757-200s (on hold for the moment), more MD-80s and six (50-seat) CRJ-200s for inter-island service. PAWA now has more opportunity to gain market share within the Caribbean due to Insel Air's troubles, who are currently reduced to only domestic service to SXM, AUA and BON, from CUR. PAWA will be leasing A320s from Aruba Airlines starting this April, contracting pilots from Aruba, but PAWA cabin crew. The initial route to incorporate these aircraft will be MIA. Later, they will launch JFK with them. The first A320 (P4-AAA) is in paint at MEX.

Dominican Wings has started seasonal charter service to The US from PUJ last month, with a PUJ-BUF service, with PUJ-EWR from April 9 and PUJ-BWI from Aug 19 all operated for tour operator Vacation Express, Dominican Wings operates an Airbus A320 (HI968).

Both airlines will operate charters to POS this Easter.
· longer · larger · farther · faster · higher · quieter · smoother ·
 
A388
Posts: 7548
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:41 am

Johnwest, let's agree to disagree. The twin otter is a good aircraft for the ABC Islands.

A388
 
dominicl316
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:25 pm

guyanam wrote:

Interesting topic. Number of issues which you can confirm or disagree with.

1. The bulk of the OECS migration into the USVI was in the 60s and the 70s. This is evidenced by the fact that the USVI population increased from just under 40k in 1960 to over 100k by 1980. Since then the population hasn't increased that much. This is due to massive movement to the USA which has offset more recent migration from the DR and the little migration which might still exist from the OECS.

2. A large % of the offspring of these migrants, and even many of the migrants themselves have moved to the mainland. Many of the older migrants have returned home. STT/STX aren't viewed as favorably as they were in the 60s and many of these OECS islands have progressed significantly since then, enticing some to return home.

3. The 2010 census showed SKB/NEV account for 6% of the USVI population, DOM for 5%, and ANU and DR for 4% each with SLU accounting for 3%. The STX economy has been weak for a long time so I suspect that there are fewer newer OECS immigrants there than in STT, which has a more buoyant economy. This will mean that a higher % of the OECS nationals living in STT will have ties to their homelands than is the case for STX. LI has been dropping service to STX for a while now, even more than it did to STT, that is before the sharp cut of about 2 years ago when STT was slashed from 2X/D to 4x/W.

I say this to say that the OECS population in the USVI has aged and isn't as connected to their homelands as they once were. This has clearly impacted LIAT. I remember in the 90s LI ran 4X daily out of STT and 2x daily out of STX during busy periods. The level of travel has declined even faster than the OECS populations in the USVI has. I don't know whether these islands can sustain 50 seat planes any more, though clearly there must be demand for something better than a 9 seat plane.

I think that the best opportunity for the USVI lies with Winair with its 19 seat planes. I think that STT can support at least a daily flight and STX maybe 5x to SXM. From there Winair can feed into their routes to ANU SKB/NEV, and DOM. Winair and Air Antilles work closely together so there is scope for service to points further south. In fact Winair did fly to STT in times past. Not sure if they ever did STX.

Air Antilles also runs its PTP DOM SXM flight onto SJU, this I suspect being especially for DOM. Don't think they are going to drop that for a less lucrative USVI though I can imagine a seamless connection via SXM..

Another idea might be Inter Carib (which appears to be building a hub in EIS) running EIS STT SKB and EIS STT ANU flights. Maybe an EIS STX SLU flight as well.


The InterCaribbean routes you propose would end up empty on the EIS-STT sector, as US regulations require a US visa for even a stopover in a US territory. I also seriously doubt an EMB-120 can be filled for STT-SKB, or STX-SLU. Unlike SKB/NEV, the ANU population in STT is smaller than the ANU community in STX, so STT-ANU is a pipe dream. The point is for the USVI to woo an airline that has the appropriate aircraft and route structure to accommodate connections to multiple islands. Considering that SXM is Category II and Win-Air is thus prohibited from adding service to STX/STT, the best bet is for Air Antilles (provided they have available aircraft) to run a SXM-STT-STX-SXM route, perhaps 3x weekly. This flight can route USVI passengers via WinAir's SXM hub to SKB, NEV, ANU, DOM/DCF, PTP, FDF, SBH, EUX, and SAB. Passengers headed to SLU can take the ferry from DOM or one of the French islands, if they choose to do so.

I see no reason why an ATR-42 can be consistently filled this way. Air Antilles has had a stellar reputation for their on-time performance (along with competitive fares) and this could be capitalized on, so that USVI travelers that had abandoned LIAT even before the service cuts will start traveling once again to islands further east.

303dk wrote:

I honestly think that you'll see STT-SDQ before someone tries STT-ANU again. The VFR and more and more business traffic is that way.


We would see EIS-SDQ before we ever see STT-SDQ. Jetblue has cornered most of that market. Keep in mind they also have the ability to route passengers via their SJU hub to multiple destinations in the DR: SDQ, PUJ and STI.
 
johnwest
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:32 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:15 pm

A388 wrote:
Johnwest, let's agree to disagree. The twin otter is a good aircraft for the ABC Islands.
[photoid][/photoid]
A388

Don't agree with you. The beech 1900 would be a better option for the 19 dear segment.
 
baje427
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:27 pm

This seems a bit odd I would think they would be better off operating their own metal on the MIA routes. I can understand the A320 for the JFK route but these various aircraft types and the delay of the 757 seem questionable.

TriniA340 wrote:
Dominican Republic aviation update #1:

PAWA Domimicana currently operates to MIA, HAV, SJU, PAP, CUR, AUA, SXM & ANU from SDQ. The airline plans to slowly add more destinations in 2017 to JFK, KIN & POS. Currently, PAWA has a fleet of four (160-seat) MD-83, one (160-seat) MD-82 and one (109-seat) MD-87, with plans to add a pair of Boeing 757-200s (on hold for the moment), more MD-80s and six (50-seat) CRJ-200s for inter-island service. PAWA now has more opportunity to gain market share within the Caribbean due to Insel Air's troubles, who are currently reduced to only domestic service to SXM, AUA and BON, from CUR. PAWA will be leasing A320s from Aruba Airlines starting this April, contracting pilots from Aruba, but PAWA cabin crew. The initial route to incorporate these aircraft will be MIA. Later, they will launch JFK with them. The first A320 (P4-AAA) is in paint at MEX.

Dominican Wings has started seasonal charter service to The US from PUJ last month, with a PUJ-BUF service, with PUJ-EWR from April 9 and PUJ-BWI from Aug 19 all operated for tour operator Vacation Express, Dominican Wings operates an Airbus A320 (HI968).

Both airlines will operate charters to POS this Easter.
 
guyanam
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:15 pm

baje427 wrote:
This seems a bit odd I would think they would be better off operating their own metal on the MIA routes. I can understand the A320 for the JFK route but these various aircraft types and the delay of the 757 seem questionable.



Maybe an ageing MD82 cannot compete on the MIA run with AA. So they get a newer A320. At some point they will have to re-fleet and streamline.
 
A388
Posts: 7548
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:26 pm

johnwest, yes, the B1900 also is a good aircraft for those routes. I agree with you on that even though the Twin Otter is also a good candidate in my opinion.

baje427, I agree with you as well in that the 757 in their fleet is questionable. I believe it has been in MEX being "prepped" for almost a year I think. The A320 coming from Aruba Airlines also is strange in my opinion but let's see.

guyanam, I'm also with you on this. PAWA or the entire Venezuelan airline group (SBA/PAWA/Aserca) will need to start thinking about their ageing fleet soon. Those MD80's are really getting old. I don't know if they have the money to lease brand new or reasonably new aircraft but they need to do this soon in my opinion. They keep adding old aircraft to their fleets which isn't sustainable anymore these days. Just look at Insel Air. Very sad.


A388
 
baje427
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread 120

Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:33 pm

Well American will be offloading some newer MD80's shortly so perhaps these airlines can look there I dont think these carriers are exactly best placed financially to do a modern refleet programme.
A388 wrote:
johnwest, yes, the B1900 also is a good aircraft for those routes. I agree with you on that even though the Twin Otter is also a good candidate in my opinion.

baje427, I agree with you as well in that the 757 in their fleet is questionable. I believe it has been in MEX being "prepped" for almost a year I think. The A320 coming from Aruba Airlines also is strange in my opinion but let's see.

guyanam, I'm also with you on this. PAWA or the entire Venezuelan airline group (SBA/PAWA/Aserca) will need to start thinking about their ageing fleet soon. Those MD80's are really getting old. I don't know if they have the money to lease brand new or reasonably new aircraft but they need to do this soon in my opinion. They keep adding old aircraft to their fleets which isn't sustainable anymore these days. Just look at Insel Air. Very sad.


A388
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