Effective 12th March 2017, Emirates will announce daily flights to Newark via Athens. The schedule is as below

EK 209 DXB - ATH 1050 1425
---------- ATH - EWR 1640 2200

EK 210 EWR - ATH 2345 1505+1
---------- ATH - DXB 1710 2350

https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... via-athens

Aircraft: B777-300ER ( 3 class)

Are AMD bound pax forecasted to take this more convenient option as the airport is closer to their homes in New Jersey or will they take the one stop option via JFK?

Interesting.

I recall in the past it was rumoured that Qatar would fly DOH-ATH-JFK.

behramjee wrote:

Are AMD bound pax forecasted to take this more convenient option as the airport is closer to their homes in New Jersey or will they take the one stop option via JFK?

I'm quite sure EK themselves, aren't too interested about the transfer pax from EWR @DXB.

BTW, WOW - that is sure to enrage DL right now! :grabs popcorn:

Finally. Surprised it isn't nonstop though.

Softaero wrote:

Finally. Surprised it isn't nonstop though.

It isn't meant to be Dubai-Newark as much its meant to be Athens-Newark.

atal17 wrote:

BTW, WOW - that is sure to enrage DL right now! :grabs popcorn:

Forget DL, think about how UA is feeling right now. EWR is their fortress hub, and this directly competes with UA. If I'm not mistaken, DEN and GUM are now the only two UA hubs not served by EK. EK doesn't even operate to half of DL's hubs (yet). Sure this move encroaches on DL's NYC network, but I think it's potentially more damaging to UA.

We will see how this goes. Loads go off a cliff once summer is over.

atcsundevil wrote:

atal17 wrote:

BTW, WOW - that is sure to enrage DL right now! :grabs popcorn:

Forget DL, think about how UA is feeling right now. EWR is their fortress hub, and this directly competes with UA. If I'm not mistaken, DEN and GUM are now the only two UA hubs not served by EK. EK doesn't even operate to half of DL's hubs (yet). Sure this move encroaches on DL's NYC network, but I think it's potentially more damaging to UA.

That's very true, but in my mind - when I see EK launching another EU 5th freedom route, I immediately think Delta will have the most vocal response.

But, I can definitely see UA getting equally mad.

I love that EK are doing this, soon to be 5x daily to the NYC area. EY and QR will need to step up their game!

ual777 wrote:

We will see how this goes. Loads go off a cliff once summer is over.

Perhaps EK can then move low yield traffic ex-DXB to support the route during winter?

Its about time an airline serve that market year round and EK is perfect for the market, whice is pretty low yielding.

Looking at the media release, it's hard to ignore the fact the Emirates chose to mention that this flight will be operated by a 'Boeing 777-300ER powered by General Electric GE90 engines'. It's almost as if they are expecting some kind of retaliatory response from the US3 and are choosing to subtly highlight their use of American planes powered by American engines to stave off any potential action by the new administration in Washington.

lammified wrote:

Looking at the media release, it's hard to ignore the fact the Emirates chose to mention that this flight will be operated by a 'Boeing 777-300ER powered by General Electric GE90 engines'. It's almost as if they are expecting some kind of retaliatory response from the US3 and are choosing to subtly highlight their use of American planes powered by American engines to stave off any potential action by the new administration in Washington.

I suspect we will see much more of this over the next few years. Imagine the confusion though when someone announces a French A320 built in the US with engines that are half european and half american... or half american and half british.

It is also interesting to note that ATH is becoming kind of a low cost hub.

Ryanair has a large presence at the airport (and they even fly to Mykonos or Santorini in low season) and Aegean offers very competitive prices in general.

This flight at attractive fares can estimulate traffic, particularly from American tourists, to Greece and that part of the world.

Pretty interesting that the last two routes they announced from the USA have had vey little lead time.

atal17 wrote:

That's very true, but in my mind - when I see EK launching another EU 5th freedom route, I immediately think Delta will have the most vocal response.

But, I can definitely see UA getting equally mad.

There's no question that DL is definitely the most vocal, so to that end, I am interested to see if/what they have to say about this. It would appear that EK is very interested in pursuing more DXB-Europe-US routes with fifth freedom, and that starts creeping into some big money routes for the US3 and JV partners.

atcsundevil wrote:

Forget DL, think about how UA is feeling right now.

77west wrote:

I suspect we will see much more of this over the next few years.

atal17 wrote:

behramjee wrote:

Are AMD bound pax forecasted to take this more convenient option as the airport is closer to their homes in New Jersey or will they take the one stop option via JFK?

I'm quite sure EK themselves, aren't too interested about the transfer pax from EWR @DXB.

BTW, WOW - that is sure to enrage DL right now! :grabs popcorn:

#1 This was their next best option in the USA? Don't think so.
#2 The short start-up is very odd and will ensure a tough start.
#3 Athens?
#4 Not sure why to risk destabilizing Open Skies for such a questionable route. Milan is much more worth the risk.
#5 They can connect to a little B6 which seems to be their principle requirement for U.S. markets.

[/quote]Are AMD bound pax forecasted to take this more convenient option as the airport is closer to their homes in New Jersey or will they take the one stop option via JFK?[/quote]

The DXB-AMD flight leaves at 23:00 and this one only arrives 23:50 unless they have a 2nd flight to AMD that I am not aware of

EWR is no longer slotted...why the odd departure time from EWR? Very late for a european flight.

Enough greeks in nj for this to work may-sept.

This route will be a disaster outside of that.

As someone said earlier, this is an odd route to go to war (open skies) over

enilria wrote:

#1 This was their next best option in the USA? Don't think so.
#2 The short start-up is very odd and will ensure a tough start.
#3 Athens?
#4 Not sure why to risk destabilizing Open Skies for such a questionable route. Milan is much more worth the risk.

Their best option would have been JFK/EWR/BOS-LHR and that's due to fleet. There would be a lot of potential for other routes if they had 787's or anything under 300 seats besides the 77L.

They will need a lot of sub $700 roundtrip fares to fill that plane. There's bad times for taking B6 in EWR feed especially from BOS (decent size market to Greece). ATH-EWR arrives too late. EK is allowing you to book BOS-EWR-ATH-EWR-BOS just need to find a cot in EWR or a hotel on the return.

Will they market the islands (JTR/JMK/RHO etc..) with A3 interline?

jfklganyc wrote:

Enough greeks in nj for this to work may-sept.

This route will be a disaster outside of that.

Greece is not only about Greeks living abroad. Greece had about 25 million tourists last year, and ATH about 20 million passengers.

It doesn't seem to be bookable yet.

This could also work for Israel-US travel, as Aegean typically offers cheap seats on TLV-ATH. Although they would have to be done as separate bookings so it won't attract a very large number of pax.

jfklganyc wrote:

EWR is no longer slotted...why the odd departure time from EWR? Very late for a european flight.

Because its arrival time into DXB is one of the busiest of EK's arrival banks, with huge onward connections. EK's JFK-MXP-DXB arrives around an hour before EWR-ATH-DXB will.

There has to be enough demand in EWR to support a DXB nonstop, surprised they are taking ATH stop. I personally thought EK could funnel EWR-DXB-BOM/AMD/DEL efficiently, but maybe not, after all...

adamh8297 wrote:

enilria wrote:

#1 This was their next best option in the USA? Don't think so.
#2 The short start-up is very odd and will ensure a tough start.
#3 Athens?
#4 Not sure why to risk destabilizing Open Skies for such a questionable route. Milan is much more worth the risk.

Their best option would have been JFK/EWR/BOS-LHR and that's due to fleet. There would be a lot of potential for other routes if they had 787's or anything under 300 seats besides the 77L.

They will need a lot of sub $700 roundtrip fares to fill that plane. There's bad times for taking B6 in EWR feed especially from BOS (decent size market to Greece). ATH-EWR arrives too late. EK is allowing you to book BOS-EWR-ATH-EWR-BOS just need to find a cot in EWR or a hotel on the return.

Will they market the islands (JTR/JMK/RHO etc..) with A3 interline?

Why would they want to compete on flights to LHR and then have to acquire more expensive LHR slots? They would also have to go Head to Head with BA, not a smart use or resources IMHO. The DXBATHEWR option sounds a good one with only DL and UA flying to NYC from ATH.

Many people are overlooking the fact that this flight was never intended for New Yorkers going to Athens, it was to to connect the dots between Athens and the rest of EK's network, of which NYC is an extension like MXP. EK's main goal is to connect people, and if they saw the demand in both directions to NYC and DXB, they went after it. If nothing else, they can now get more capacity out of the NYC market. DL and UA have seasonal flights to ATH, so I have no doubt that EK will take it clean out of season. Kudos to EK's team for doing this, they saw an open opportunity and they took that shot. Now let's see when they start ZRH-MEX

I would have loved for them to relaunch DXB-HAM-JFK/EWR instead

cv990Coronado wrote:

Why would they want to compete on flights to LHR and then have to acquire more expensive LHR slots? They would also have to go Head to Head with BA, not a smart use or resources IMHO. The DXBATHEWR option sounds a good one with only DL and UA flying to NYC from ATH.

I don't see DL or UA over reacting to this route, simply because of the arrival and departure time the flight will have at EWR. Even though EK has partners like B6 here in the U.S. how many of their partners have flights leaving EWR after 23:30, or how many people are willing to sit in an airport for 4-5 hours for Ek departure back to ATH at 23:45? EK's flight is targeting O&D traffic only while both DL and UA hubs give them access to a lot more traffic, and even that connecting traffic takes a nose dive after the busy summer traveling season sense the reason the flight does not operate year around. As far as price I think both DL and UA will be effected by EK's ultra cheap fares but since their flights don't operate year around but only during the summer when ticket prices are normally higher for travel between the U.S and Europe there is only so much effect EK will have on the ATH-EWR-ATH legs of the route. The biggest challenge I see for EK is demand no airline operates US - Athens year around because of the lack of demand during the winter months. EK can not create demand out of thin air, so the only way I see this flight surviving year around is because there will be passengers flying DXB-EWR-DXB and at some point in the future do to the lack of demand during the winter season I can see EK making this route a nonstop and dropping the ATH -EWR-ATH legs of the flight.

Pe@rson wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

EWR is no longer slotted...why the odd departure time from EWR? Very late for a european flight.

Because its arrival time into DXB is one of the busiest of EK's arrival banks, with huge onward connections. EK's JFK-MXP-DXB arrives around an hour before EWR-ATH-DXB will.

But they already have a flight to/from ATH at roughly the same time as this one. To me that's what makes this schedule odd. Usually when EK increases to double daily, they tend to stagger the flights much more than 1 hour apart.

wasn't there some form of ME3 previously at EWR? perhaps in the mid-00's. i believe there was; i'm just drawing a blank.

rnav2dlrey wrote:

wasn't there some form of ME3 previously at EWR? perhaps in the mid-00's. i believe there was; i'm just drawing a blank.

QR, for a limited period of time until they got hold of more 77Ws.

airbazar wrote:

Pe@rson wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

EWR is no longer slotted...why the odd departure time from EWR? Very late for a european flight.

Because its arrival time into DXB is one of the busiest of EK's arrival banks, with huge onward connections. EK's JFK-MXP-DXB arrives around an hour before EWR-ATH-DXB will.

But they already have a flight to/from ATH at roughly the same time as this one. To me that's what makes this schedule odd. Usually when EK increases to double daily, they tend to stagger the flights much more than 1 hour apart.

I think that those flights are the same. EK105/106 will become EK209/210 after 12MAR.

jayunited wrote:

cv990Coronado wrote:

Why would they want to compete on flights to LHR and then have to acquire more expensive LHR slots? They would also have to go Head to Head with BA, not a smart use or resources IMHO. The DXBATHEWR option sounds a good one with only DL and UA flying to NYC from ATH.

I don't see DL or UA over reacting to this route, simply because of the arrival and departure time the flight will have at EWR. Even though EK has partners like B6 here in the U.S. how many of their partners have flights leaving EWR after 23:30, or how many people are willing to sit in an airport for 4-5 hours for Ek departure back to ATH at 23:45? EK's flight is targeting O&D traffic only while both DL and UA hubs give them access to a lot more traffic, and even that connecting traffic takes a nose dive after the busy summer traveling season sense the reason the flight does not operate year around. As far as price I think both DL and UA will be effected by EK's ultra cheap fares but since their flights don't operate year around but only during the summer when ticket prices are normally higher for travel between the U.S and Europe there is only so much effect EK will have on the ATH-EWR-ATH legs of the route. The biggest challenge I see for EK is demand no airline operates US - Athens year around because of the lack of demand during the winter months. EK can not create demand out of thin air, so the only way I see this flight surviving year around is because there will be passengers flying DXB-EWR-DXB and at some point in the future do to the lack of demand during the winter season I can see EK making this route a nonstop and dropping the ATH -EWR-ATH legs of the flight.

If you look at it from a different perspective, now folks can leave ATH later in the day on Emirates on a NS to EWR. Forget the connections in EWR that wont happen with such a late arrival into EWR but the fact that you can spend more of the day in ATH is a plus. On the return, folks can spend more of the day at their departure point before having to take a late flight into EWR and then take the Emirates flight onto ATH/DXB. Its possible...

cv990Coronado wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

enilria wrote:

#1 This was their next best option in the USA? Don't think so.
#2 The short start-up is very odd and will ensure a tough start.
#3 Athens?
#4 Not sure why to risk destabilizing Open Skies for such a questionable route. Milan is much more worth the risk.

Their best option would have been JFK/EWR/BOS-LHR and that's due to fleet. There would be a lot of potential for other routes if they had 787's or anything under 300 seats besides the 77L.

They will need a lot of sub $700 roundtrip fares to fill that plane. There's bad times for taking B6 in EWR feed especially from BOS (decent size market to Greece). ATH-EWR arrives too late. EK is allowing you to book BOS-EWR-ATH-EWR-BOS just need to find a cot in EWR or a hotel on the return.

Will they market the islands (JTR/JMK/RHO etc..) with A3 interline?

Why would they want to compete on flights to LHR and then have to acquire more expensive LHR slots? They would also have to go Head to Head with BA, not a smart use or resources IMHO. The DXBATHEWR option sounds a good one with only DL and UA flying to NYC from ATH.

Its a massive market and doesn't have the seasonality ATH does. Lots of competition but if anyone can compete its EK.

KTPAFlyer wrote:

Now let's see when they start ZRH-MEX

You'll be waiting a very long time for ZRH-MEX. Switzerland granted UAE carriers rights to MEX only from GVA not ZRH.

If UA was thinking about Athens for an year round service, now it is in jeopardy. May be UA and Aegean can introduce a flight with code shares. UA will sure get upset on this route. Plus EK has the potential to steal customers to its traditional base, India/Pakistan and SE Asia from EWR. I don't see DL getting affected much. As far as Aegean is concerned, they do not have plans to fly to EWR nor do they fly to JFK (may be seasonally they do), but could affect their future potential.

Wow what a pleasant surprise. When and which middle east airline was going to come to EWR was always one of the greatest hits in this forum, but we haven't seen it discussed in awhile. And the winner is EK via ATH.

This route is starting on short notice it's almost unbelievable. Why did they do that? It's not even 2 months away?

The route is not for connections in EWR so that's out.

The flight times are kind of weird. I don't know why they just didn't do a nonstop to DXB.

Year round routes from the USA to ATH? Really, who needs that outside of possibly Christmas?

It's interesting but a little strange.

jayunited wrote:

I don't see DL or UA over reacting to this route

Oh, I do. It's like QR going to ATL. UA owns EWR. On top of that DL had made clear that their highest priority in the QR/EK/EY battle was to deny 5th Freedom to them. This is basically EK saying stop us or shut up. It's *very* ballsy. I wish EK had picked a better opportunity than ATH. It's very seasonal and the heavily leisure. There's basically zero business traffic. Anybody know what their 5th Freedom options are to the USA? It must be a short list.

KTPAFlyer wrote:

Many people are overlooking the fact that this flight was never intended for New Yorkers going to Athens, it was to to connect the dots between Athens and the rest of EK's network, of which NYC is an extension like MXP. EK's main goal is to connect people, and if they saw the demand in both directions to NYC and DXB, they went after it. If nothing else, they can now get more capacity out of the NYC market. DL and UA have seasonal flights to ATH, so I have no doubt that EK will take it clean out of season. Kudos to EK's team for doing this, they saw an open opportunity and they took that shot. Now let's see when they start ZRH-MEX

I completely disagree. It doesn't connect in EWR because of schedule. It doesn't connect in ATH to any partner I'm aware of (maybe one is coming?). It connects in DXB, but nobody will fly EWR-ATH-DXB when there's a ton of capacity down the street in JFK. The only way to get people to go to DXB will be to undercut their own JFK flights to incent people to bear the stop. I think this may be more of a political football than a business opportunity. Perhaps they just want to establish once and for all that they can do 5th freedom all they want into the USA? This was just the best option to do that due to current restrictions. I assume they wanted to do JFK-ATH-DXB but talked themselves into this when they couldn't get a slot.

Is there a departure curfew at EWR?

hohd wrote:

Plus EK has the potential to steal customers to its traditional base, India/Pakistan and SE Asia from EWR.

Very unlikely, both UA and AI have their own loyal following. UA premium pax to BOM/DEL won't opt a 2 stop over non-stop and Gurajati VFR crowd loves AI with direct service to AMD.

Also EK has no chance of increasing capacity to India, with all recent A330/A340/B772 retirements they are probably tapping into allowed grace margins.

enilria wrote:

jayunited wrote:

I don't see DL or UA over reacting to this route

It doesn't connect in ATH to any partner I'm aware of (maybe one is coming?).

On EK's website - I was able to book connections on A3 and OA to JTR (Santorini) in a dummy booking

rnav2dlrey wrote:

wasn't there some form of ME3 previously at EWR? perhaps in the mid-00's. i believe there was; i'm just drawing a blank.

QR'S first US route was DOH-GVA-EWR with an A330. Besides that MH flew for many years EWR-DXB nonstop with a 772, the flight continued on to KUL. I believe it was the first nonstop route between the US and Dubai. Later when EK started flying to JFK MH switched to EWR-ARN-KUL with a 744.

Irehdna wrote:

There has to be enough demand in EWR to support a DXB nonstop, surprised they are taking ATH stop. I personally thought EK could funnel EWR-DXB-BOM/AMD/DEL efficiently, but maybe not, after all...

Also, there is limited gate space in the International piers of Terminal B earlier in the evening before the Europe flights leave.

I do not know if the flight would really cater to the Indian subcontinent unless someone from India wants to visit Greece considering that most folks from the Indian subcontinent use DXB or ME3 as a via stop to trek to the States . There are nonstop direct flights from EWR to BOM/DEL on either UA or AI and hopefully AA or DL also pounce into this market. Plus from JFK there is QR, EY and EK. It is very common for Indian grandparents and families to trek to India yearly as a yearly trip. Empathizing my own father he wouldn't take two stops to reach EWR and then one another to BOS but then it is possible that there is a market out there that I do not know exists and possibly EK route planners have the details and the profitability matrix.

Surprised they launched this before a non-stop to EWR. Would think given the giant Indian Sub-Cont population in NJ, a EWR-DXB could do well. Unless they fea it will cannibalize JFK traffic?

The real target might be Air India and United to steal away customers on India-bound flights (both UA and AI fly nonstop). That said, Emirates really should look at the Boeing 787-9 to open routes like this; a 789 has 100 less metric tons of landing fees.

Not long ago we had a discussion here about EK trying to get rights to operate GVA-USA flights.

So how is it going to be the schedule for DXB-ATH, is it going to be 2 daily, 1 daily??

Why were the ME3 allowed 5th freedom rights to sell EU-USA? Seems unbelievable to me. Have any of the US3 gone into DXB and demanded 5th freedom? Granted there's no way they would ever succeed, but at some point the playing field has to be fair. Having said that the US3 are all printing profits hand over fist and yet continue to degrade their product/FFPs, so they're not getting any sympathy from me.

UA just re-started EWR/ATH as a seasonal market...this move will more likely impact that first and foremost, before any NYC/DXB/BOM/DEL traffic.

migair54 wrote:

Not long ago we had a discussion here about EK trying to get rights to operate GVA-USA flights.

So how is it going to be the schedule for DXB-ATH, is it going to be 2 daily, 1 daily??

2 daily. One DXB-ATH-DXB and one DXB-ATH-EWR-ATH-DXB.
The current second daily via LCA ends January 31.