tjerome wrote:

RL757PVD wrote:

airbazar wrote:

Some in Boston tried to fix all of those problems. It was called "hosting the Olympics". But in good old fashioned local politics and parochialism, it got shot down. I'm afraid we will never again in our life time have as good an opportunity to correct our urban planning on such a massive scale.

Ready for this?.... I agree with you.... because the Olympics would have forced them to confront their regional thinking past and think more on a big city playing field and fix a lot of these problems.

While we will be lucky if all the new service (4 new airlines and 16 hew routes announced in the past 8 months), in the long run PVD and Providence in general will benefit the same way Oakland and Baltimore did when their nearby "hubs" were unable to provide proper organic urban growth.

Yup, biggest problem with Boston is the small city mentality but tries to act like a big city. You can't run a big city with a system like the MBTA's hours and expect it to work. You can't take the MBTA to get to Logan for even an 8am flight. The city and airport are over capacity, parking is an expensive mess at the airport (not just for the consumer...) Fact is that public transportation here sucks hence why people like me would rather drive into Boston for convenience. I am trying to move closer to Boston but rent is just so expensive I'm not sure it will happen.

There is just no room for growth at Logan, not enough space for the DL plans as well as WN and B6 still seem to be growing. And all of the international carriers. I still stand by my beliefs that in a good 70-80 years the whole terminal/road infrastructure will be leveled and rebuilt, and some of those homes to the west of where the Mass Pike comes up as you get to the airport. This airport can become a mess with a coating of snow as it is, imagine it with more DL, B6, international flights.

You can't take the MBTA for a flight out of Logan at 8am?! Ummm, where are you coming from. The T starts running at 5:45am. If you factor being there an hour early at 7am what's the problem? There's only 1 international flight that might be an issue and that's BA's BOS-LHR at 8am. But domestic would be no problem.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

tjerome wrote:

RL757PVD wrote:

Ready for this?.... I agree with you.... because the Olympics would have forced them to confront their regional thinking past and think more on a big city playing field and fix a lot of these problems.

While we will be lucky if all the new service (4 new airlines and 16 hew routes announced in the past 8 months), in the long run PVD and Providence in general will benefit the same way Oakland and Baltimore did when their nearby "hubs" were unable to provide proper organic urban growth.

Yup, biggest problem with Boston is the small city mentality but tries to act like a big city. You can't run a big city with a system like the MBTA's hours and expect it to work. You can't take the MBTA to get to Logan for even an 8am flight. The city and airport are over capacity, parking is an expensive mess at the airport (not just for the consumer...) Fact is that public transportation here sucks hence why people like me would rather drive into Boston for convenience. I am trying to move closer to Boston but rent is just so expensive I'm not sure it will happen.

There is just no room for growth at Logan, not enough space for the DL plans as well as WN and B6 still seem to be growing. And all of the international carriers. I still stand by my beliefs that in a good 70-80 years the whole terminal/road infrastructure will be leveled and rebuilt, and some of those homes to the west of where the Mass Pike comes up as you get to the airport. This airport can become a mess with a coating of snow as it is, imagine it with more DL, B6, international flights.

You can't take the MBTA for a flight out of Logan at 8am?! Ummm, where are you coming from. The T starts running at 5:45am. If you factor being there an hour early at 7am what's the problem? There's only 1 international flight that might be an issue and that's BA's BOS-LHR at 8am. But domestic would be no problem.

Indeed, I didn't realize things had change so drastically from 2014 when I took the T from Back Bay Station at 6:00AM to Logan to catch B6 flight 287 to LAX that just happened to be leaving at 8:00AM exactly.

DOT Q2 2017 Table 6 Data was also released fairly recently - a bit quicker than last quarter.

Here's top 10 unserved markets from BOS in PDEW for the Quarter. Other stats to come later (market increases/decreases)

SAT - 172 - This won't be unserved for long I believe
ABQ - 121
MEM - 118
SDF -112
OMA -101
TUS -98
MSN - 87
OKC - 84
GRR - 78
GSP -71

Some of these markets have large swings between Q1 and Q2 especially ABQ!

Q2 2017 Top Increases by % of PDEW (markets over 50 PDEW in both years)

SLC - 20.9%
ATL - 18.9%
BNA - 15.2%
MCI - 14.9%
CVG - 14.7%
TUS - 14.7%
NYC - 14.0%
SAV - 12.3%
OKC - 10.1%
DSM - 10.1%

Q2 2017 Top Increases by PDEW (markets over 50 PDEW in both years)

NYC - 290
ATL - 269
BNA - 91
LA - 85
DTW - 72
DEN - 71
SLC - 68
WAS - 55
CHI - 47
MCI - 40

Q2 2017 Top Decreases by % of PDEW (markets over 50 PDEW in both years)

DAY - 21.4%
GSO - 9.0%
ROC - 8.1%
SRQ - 7.8%
MIA/FLL - 6.4%
MKE - 6.4%
IND - 6.2%
CMH - 6.1%
MEM -4.2%
MSP - 3.7%


Q2 2017 Top Decreases by PDEW (markets over 50 PDEW in both years)

MIA/FLL - 124
MSP - 29
TPA - 28
IND - 24
CMH - 23
DAY -19
MKE -19
SRQ - 8
DFW - 8
ROC - 8


Analysis:
- No surprise increases in SLC/BNA/NYC/ATL due to increase on those routes
- WN midwest spring cuts caused some O+D drop but not double digits percentage wise
- Is DL pricing CVG lower causing some to not go to DAY? Were there cuts at DAY?
- Trying to figure out what was with MCI increases - Wasn't that cut with the others a bit by WN?
- A year from now MSP will probably be number one in the increases - both percentage and pax. AUS will contend as well.
- BNA is the 22nd largest market in BOS now. Recently eclipsed SAN, AUS, PIT, PBI. Not bad for the 31st largest CSA in the country.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

You can't take the MBTA for a flight out of Logan at 8am?! Ummm, where are you coming from. The T starts running at 5:45am. If you factor being there an hour early at 7am what's the problem? There's only 1 international flight that might be an issue and that's BA's BOS-LHR at 8am. But domestic would be no problem.

Not everybody lives right on the Red, Blue, Green, or Orange line. The problem is that much of Boston isn't covered by one of the subway lines, and the commuter network pretty much sucks. I agree that yes there are worse cities, but Boston really needs to rethink it's investment in transit.

cloudboy wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

You can't take the MBTA for a flight out of Logan at 8am?! Ummm, where are you coming from. The T starts running at 5:45am. If you factor being there an hour early at 7am what's the problem? There's only 1 international flight that might be an issue and that's BA's BOS-LHR at 8am. But domestic would be no problem.

Not everybody lives right on the Red, Blue, Green, or Orange line. The problem is that much of Boston isn't covered by one of the subway lines, and the commuter network pretty much sucks. I agree that yes there are worse cities, but Boston really needs to rethink it's investment in transit.

In what context does the commuter rail network suck?

B752OS wrote:

cloudboy wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

You can't take the MBTA for a flight out of Logan at 8am?! Ummm, where are you coming from. The T starts running at 5:45am. If you factor being there an hour early at 7am what's the problem? There's only 1 international flight that might be an issue and that's BA's BOS-LHR at 8am. But domestic would be no problem.

Not everybody lives right on the Red, Blue, Green, or Orange line. The problem is that much of Boston isn't covered by one of the subway lines, and the commuter network pretty much sucks. I agree that yes there are worse cities, but Boston really needs to rethink it's investment in transit.

In what context does the commuter rail network suck?

Uh, in what context does it not suck? It's consistently delayed. Trains without working A/C in the Summer. Not enough seats at rush hour. No luggage racks for those traveling with luggage. Low frequence outside Zone2.
I took the commuter rail for years until thankfully I started working from home. From the North it is faster to drive at rush hour than it is to take the T.
In the context of this forum (going to the airport), after you arrive at North Station, you need to haul your bags for a block to the Orange Line, which hopefully won't be busting at the seams and you'll actually be able to get on the train. Then off 2 stops later to switch to the Blue line. Another looooog walk hauling bags. It's so bad you may as well just hail a cab at N.Station to the airport. Granted, a lot of these complains aren't exactly related to the commuter rail but it points to how much of an hassle it can be to take the commuter rail to get to Logan. It's a lot easier if you're arriving at South Station.
The thing is, the commuter rail (and the subway), were not designed to be any more than what they are: An alternative to driving into and out of downtown Boston. You can't really switch between lines without going all the way into downtown Boston. We lack a circular rail line, similar to our Route 128.

adamh8297 wrote:

Q2 2017 Top Increases by % of PDEW (markets over 50 PDEW in both years)

Analysis:
- No surprise increases in SLC/BNA/NYC/ATL due to increase on those routes
- WN midwest spring cuts caused some O+D drop but not double digits percentage wise
- Is DL pricing CVG lower causing some to not go to DAY? Were there cuts at DAY?
- Trying to figure out what was with MCI increases - Wasn't that cut with the others a bit by WN?
- A year from now MSP will probably be number one in the increases - both percentage and pax. AUS will contend as well.
- BNA is the 22nd largest market in BOS now. Recently eclipsed SAN, AUS, PIT, PBI. Not bad for the 31st largest CSA in the country.

BNA has seen a large uptick in service over the last 2 years - crazy t think that as recent as 2014 (?) this route did not have a single non-stop on it. Nashville has also become a trendy place to vacation, similar to Austin.

airbazar wrote:

B752OS wrote:

cloudboy wrote:

Not everybody lives right on the Red, Blue, Green, or Orange line. The problem is that much of Boston isn't covered by one of the subway lines, and the commuter network pretty much sucks. I agree that yes there are worse cities, but Boston really needs to rethink it's investment in transit.

In what context does the commuter rail network suck?

Uh, in what context does it not suck? It's consistently delayed. Trains without working A/C in the Summer. Not enough seats at rush hour. No luggage racks for those traveling with luggage. Low frequence outside Zone2.
I took the commuter rail for years until thankfully I started working from home. From the North it is faster to drive at rush hour than it is to take the T.
In the context of this forum (going to the airport), after you arrive at North Station, you need to haul your bags for a block to the Orange Line, which hopefully won't be busting at the seams and you'll actuallyair be able to get on the train. Then off 2 stops later to switch to the Blue line. Another looooog walk hauling bags. It's so bad you may as well just hail a cab at N.Station to the airport. Granted, a lot of these complains aren't exactly related to the commuter rail but it points to how much of an hassle it can be to take the commuter rail to get to Logan. It's a lot easier if you're arriving at South Station.
The thing is, the commuter rail (and the subway), were not designed to be any more than what they are: An alternative to driving into and out of downtown Boston. You can't really switch between lines without going all the way into downtown Boston. We lack a circular rail line, similar to our Route 128.

B752OS, the commuter rail doesn't suck. The truth is that you're never going to be able to please everybody. Every major city with mass rail transit has its pluses and minuses. The MBTA is no different. I happen to live on the south shore where the first train of day arrives at 5:55am and you're at south station by 6:20am where you connect to the silver line and are at Logan by 6:50-6:55am. PLENTY of time to make an 8am flight.

airbazar you're being very dramatic with your examples. When one arrives at north station on the commuter rail the orange line also has a stop at north station. You never even have to leave the building (The Garden). God forbid you must actually walk from the commuter rail tracks to the T tracks. I take it you've never ridden the NYC subway where just changing lines at some stations (Times Square) feels like you're walking all the way across Manhattan. Same with changing at State Street from the Orange line to the Blue line - it's NOT that far......unless one is lazy

Finally - the T and the MBTA are fine. You can take them to the city as well as the airport. By no means is the system perfect and there's lots of room to grow and improve. The T and MBTA commuter rail trains serves around 2 million riders each day and being one of them, I hope they get better because we Bostonians are going to need a better system at the route Boston and the metro area is growing.

airbazar wrote:

B752OS wrote:

cloudboy wrote:

Not everybody lives right on the Red, Blue, Green, or Orange line. The problem is that much of Boston isn't covered by one of the subway lines, and the commuter network pretty much sucks. I agree that yes there are worse cities, but Boston really needs to rethink it's investment in transit.

In what context does the commuter rail network suck?

Uh, in what context does it not suck? It's consistently delayed. Trains without working A/C in the Summer. Not enough seats at rush hour. No luggage racks for those traveling with luggage. Low frequence outside Zone2.
I took the commuter rail for years until thankfully I started working from home. From the North it is faster to drive at rush hour than it is to take the T.
In the context of this forum (going to the airport), after you arrive at North Station, you need to haul your bags for a block to the Orange Line, which hopefully won't be busting at the seams and you'll actually be able to get on the train. Then off 2 stops later to switch to the Blue line. Another looooog walk hauling bags. It's so bad you may as well just hail a cab at N.Station to the airport. Granted, a lot of these complains aren't exactly related to the commuter rail but it points to how much of an hassle it can be to take the commuter rail to get to Logan. It's a lot easier if you're arriving at South Station.
The thing is, the commuter rail (and the subway), were not designed to be any more than what they are: An alternative to driving into and out of downtown Boston. You can't really switch between lines without going all the way into downtown Boston. We lack a circular rail line, similar to our Route 128.

Anywhere that is pretty much touched by MBTA is between 15 (Medford) to 25 (Braintree) for Lyft or Uber to get to Logan... money well spent in my opinion if you have bags.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

.

airbazar you're being very dramatic with your examples. When one arrives at north station on the commuter rail the orange line also has a stop at north station. You never even have to leave the building (The Garden). God forbid you must actually walk from the commuter rail tracks to the T tracks. I take it you've never ridden the NYC subway where just changing lines at some stations (Times Square) feels like you're walking all the way across Manhattan. Same with changing at State Street from the Orange line to the Blue line - it's NOT that far......unless one is lazy

Airbazar is right because of the present condition of North Station. Due to the Hub on Causeway Project - the underground connector from North Station Commuter Rail to Orange/Green Line is closed - you have to leave the building and cross Causeway Street. MBTA Transit Police are making a LOT of detail money handling traffic from this project. Its a disaster for commuters. Lots of missed trains going home for many. To stay on topic it wouldn't be fun with luggage especially if you are travelling at rush hour.

I think Orange to Blue connection sucks personally at State too. I don't mind walking (I walk from Lechmere or Charles directly to North Station during my commute)...but it does add to your overall commute time which can annoy some people.

I do wonder how many people who live near a Newburyport/Rockport train will take commuter to Chelsea and connection to Silver Line to Logan once the new BRT line opens in 2018.

I live off the Fitchburg line and I've taken the T to Logan several times without incident. I have to agree connecting at State Street is pretty bad, personally I prefer to take the Green Line to Govt Center and pick up the Blue line there (the new Govt Center Station has made connecting to the Blue Line very easy). Only thing I don't like is that when you get to the airport you have to take a bus from the station to the terminal. Those busses are slow and infrequent, I wish they'd put the stop within walking distance of the terminals.

adamh8297 wrote:

- Is DL pricing CVG lower causing some to not go to DAY? Were there cuts at DAY?

DAY's passenger numbers were over inflated from Cincinnati passengers heading for lower fares. Now that CVG is way less expensive (as of Q2 '17, CVG is cheaper than IND/CMH/DAY/SDF/LEX), passengers are coming back to CVG causing a massive growth, while passenger (and airlines) are leaving DAY causing large cuts (WN left and AA/DL/UA are significantly down in pax counts).

adamh8297 wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

.

airbazar you're being very dramatic with your examples. When one arrives at north station on the commuter rail the orange line also has a stop at north station. You never even have to leave the building (The Garden). God forbid you must actually walk from the commuter rail tracks to the T tracks. I take it you've never ridden the NYC subway where just changing lines at some stations (Times Square) feels like you're walking all the way across Manhattan. Same with changing at State Street from the Orange line to the Blue line - it's NOT that far......unless one is lazy

Airbazar is right because of the present condition of North Station. Due to the Hub on Causeway Project - the underground connector from North Station Commuter Rail to Orange/Green Line is closed - you have to leave the building and cross Causeway Street. MBTA Transit Police are making a LOT of detail money handling traffic from this project. Its a disaster for commuters. Lots of missed trains going home for many. To stay on topic it wouldn't be fun with luggage especially if you are travelling at rush hour.

I think Orange to Blue connection sucks personally at State too. I don't mind walking (I walk from Lechmere or Charles directly to North Station during my commute)...but it does add to your overall commute time which can annoy some people.

I do wonder how many people who live near a Newburyport/Rockport train will take commuter to Chelsea and connection to Silver Line to Logan once the new BRT line opens in 2018.

I wasn't aware of any projects going on at North Station. But having to just cross causeway street to get to the organge line isn't really much. Have you ever flown into LGA or JFK and taken mass transit. You can only take a bus from LGA and from JFK you have to take the AirTrain to either the subway or LIRR. It takes around 1 hours from LGA to take the bus to a subway into the city and 1.5-2 hours from JFK. If you take the LIRR into Penn Station you walk 3x as far going from the LIRR tracks to the subway as you doing going from the Commuter Rail to Orange Line at North Station even with this project.

Give me BOS any day of the week.

aaflyer777 wrote:

I live off the Fitchburg line and I've taken the T to Logan several times without incident. I have to agree connecting at State Street is pretty bad, personally I prefer to take the Green Line to Govt Center and pick up the Blue line there (the new Govt Center Station has made connecting to the Blue Line very easy). Only thing I don't like is that when you get to the airport you have to take a bus from the station to the terminal. Those busses are slow and infrequent, I wish they'd put the stop within walking distance of the terminals.

The buses are bad, and what makes it worse is that the buses get full very quickly at the blue line Station during the week, and instead of going directly to the terminals it stops at the rental car center to pick up more people when they're already full. It's absolutely awful! They need dedicated buses that run just from the T Station to the terminals and dedicated buses from the rental car center to the terminals.

adamh8297 wrote:

I do wonder how many people who live near a Newburyport/Rockport train will take commuter to Chelsea and connection to Silver Line to Logan once the new BRT line opens in 2018.

Given I am one of those people (I live about 0.5 mile from one of the stations on that line, I am going to suggest very few. It's a whole bunch of messing about, the earliest train doesn't get to Chelsea until 6am (assuming it is on time, (which it often isn't), transfer with your luggage to this new silver line, trek that across to the airport even with it's dedicated route, sure you can probably make it there for 7am, but frankly that's way too much out of my control to take it. Honestly I would drive to Wonderland and take the blue line in before i risked that, but if I am going to do that, I am just as well getting Mrs VS up to take me, there in 40 minutes, right at the terminal and away we go.
Will some do it, sure, they will, and on a weekend... good luck with that.

VS4ever wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

I do wonder how many people who live near a Newburyport/Rockport train will take commuter to Chelsea and connection to Silver Line to Logan once the new BRT line opens in 2018.

Given I am one of those people (I live about 0.5 mile from one of the stations on that line, I am going to suggest very few. It's a whole bunch of messing about, the earliest train doesn't get to Chelsea until 6am (assuming it is on time, (which it often isn't), transfer with your luggage to this new silver line, trek that across to the airport even with it's dedicated route, sure you can probably make it there for 7am, but frankly that's way too much out of my control to take it. Honestly I would drive to Wonderland and take the blue line in before i risked that, but if I am going to do that, I am just as well getting Mrs VS up to take me, there in 40 minutes, right at the terminal and away we go.
Will some do it, sure, they will, and on a weekend... good luck with that.

I do not get all of this moaning and griping about transferring luggage a couple hundred feet. Honestly, what do you do when you have to change planes that require a change in terminals? Or what do you do when you arrive and collect your luggage and then must carry to your car in the economy garage that requires a bus, or your taxi or car that's picking you up that's still several hundred feet away from the baggage claim. Do you have a private valet carry your luggage while you're whisked away in a cart?!?! Why is transferring luggage from one train to another now such a big deal???

clrd4t8koff wrote:

VS4ever wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

I do wonder how many people who live near a Newburyport/Rockport train will take commuter to Chelsea and connection to Silver Line to Logan once the new BRT line opens in 2018.

Given I am one of those people (I live about 0.5 mile from one of the stations on that line, I am going to suggest very few. It's a whole bunch of messing about, the earliest train doesn't get to Chelsea until 6am (assuming it is on time, (which it often isn't), transfer with your luggage to this new silver line, trek that across to the airport even with it's dedicated route, sure you can probably make it there for 7am, but frankly that's way too much out of my control to take it. Honestly I would drive to Wonderland and take the blue line in before i risked that, but if I am going to do that, I am just as well getting Mrs VS up to take me, there in 40 minutes, right at the terminal and away we go.
Will some do it, sure, they will, and on a weekend... good luck with that.

I do not get all of this moaning and griping about transferring luggage a couple hundred feet. Honestly, what do you do when you have to change planes that require a change in terminals? Or what do you do when you arrive and collect your luggage and then must carry to your car in the economy garage that requires a bus, or your taxi or car that's picking you up that's still several hundred feet away from the baggage claim. Do you have a private valet carry your luggage while you're whisked away in a cart?!?! Why is transferring luggage from one train to another now such a big deal???

No of course I don't, i'm not that pretentious, and i have done all the above (with the exception of the private valet), it's a simple convenience factor and more to do with not trusting the MBTA to be able to deliver the service and me potentially not miss my flight than moving my luggage, i've just done BOS-AMS-BHX-AMS-BOS and had plenty of times lugging my luggage around. It's a hassle factor and given the alternatives and the risk factors, i will choose not to do it and again, what am i supposed to do on a Sunday when the trains are every 90 minutes rather than the 15-30 minutes on a peak day morning.

VS4ever wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

VS4ever wrote:

Given I am one of those people (I live about 0.5 mile from one of the stations on that line, I am going to suggest very few. It's a whole bunch of messing about, the earliest train doesn't get to Chelsea until 6am (assuming it is on time, (which it often isn't), transfer with your luggage to this new silver line, trek that across to the airport even with it's dedicated route, sure you can probably make it there for 7am, but frankly that's way too much out of my control to take it. Honestly I would drive to Wonderland and take the blue line in before i risked that, but if I am going to do that, I am just as well getting Mrs VS up to take me, there in 40 minutes, right at the terminal and away we go.
Will some do it, sure, they will, and on a weekend... good luck with that.

I do not get all of this moaning and griping about transferring luggage a couple hundred feet. Honestly, what do you do when you have to change planes that require a change in terminals? Or what do you do when you arrive and collect your luggage and then must carry to your car in the economy garage that requires a bus, or your taxi or car that's picking you up that's still several hundred feet away from the baggage claim. Do you have a private valet carry your luggage while you're whisked away in a cart?!?! Why is transferring luggage from one train to another now such a big deal???

No of course I don't, i'm not that pretentious, and i have done all the above (with the exception of the private valet), it's a simple convenience factor and more to do with not trusting the MBTA to be able to deliver the service and me potentially not miss my flight than moving my luggage, i've just done BOS-AMS-BHX-AMS-BOS and had plenty of times lugging my luggage around. It's a hassle factor and given the alternatives and the risk factors, i will choose not to do it and again, what am i supposed to do on a Sunday when the trains are every 90 minutes rather than the 15-30 minutes on a peak day morning.

The same thing one does when they have a 90-minute connection for their next flight. Get a coffee or beer, read a book. Grab a bite to eat. Does ever flight you connect to run every 15-30 mins? What do you do to pass time when you fly BOS-AMS and are required to be there 120-mins in advance?

Keep in mind that the original discussion about transit revolved around early morning departures (and I will add - late evening arrivals),

I live on the Worcester line. Frequency is packed around the morning commute in and the evening commute out. Trains are packed, lack of luggage space. Delays are terrible, especially when there is any kind of bad weather - rain or snow. The coaches are in poor quality. Forget about even finding a workable train schedule on weekends. It usually ends up taking 1 3/4 of an hour to get into the city, then you have to take that blasted Silver Line, where you have to wait another 20+ minutes until you can finally make it on a bus for another half hour before you can make it to your terminal.

I know of maybe one or two people who often use the train in. Peter Pan buses seem to be faster and more reliable if you can get the schedule to work. Most simply drive to Framingham and take the Logan Express in.

Come to think of it, I wonder how successful a Logan Bus from Worcester would be. And if you could successfully run one from ORH to BOS?

clrd4t8koff wrote:

tjerome wrote:

RL757PVD wrote:

Ready for this?.... I agree with you.... because the Olympics would have forced them to confront their regional thinking past and think more on a big city playing field and fix a lot of these problems.

While we will be lucky if all the new service (4 new airlines and 16 hew routes announced in the past 8 months), in the long run PVD and Providence in general will benefit the same way Oakland and Baltimore did when their nearby "hubs" were unable to provide proper organic urban growth.

Yup, biggest problem with Boston is the small city mentality but tries to act like a big city. You can't run a big city with a system like the MBTA's hours and expect it to work. You can't take the MBTA to get to Logan for even an 8am flight. The city and airport are over capacity, parking is an expensive mess at the airport (not just for the consumer...) Fact is that public transportation here sucks hence why people like me would rather drive into Boston for convenience. I am trying to move closer to Boston but rent is just so expensive I'm not sure it will happen.

There is just no room for growth at Logan, not enough space for the DL plans as well as WN and B6 still seem to be growing. And all of the international carriers. I still stand by my beliefs that in a good 70-80 years the whole terminal/road infrastructure will be leveled and rebuilt, and some of those homes to the west of where the Mass Pike comes up as you get to the airport. This airport can become a mess with a coating of snow as it is, imagine it with more DL, B6, international flights.

You can't take the MBTA for a flight out of Logan at 8am?! Ummm, where are you coming from. The T starts running at 5:45am. If you factor being there an hour early at 7am what's the problem? There's only 1 international flight that might be an issue and that's BA's BOS-LHR at 8am. But domestic would be no problem.

Sure you'd get there at 7am but if you're checking bags in and there's a long security line that is cutting it real close.

1st commuter rail from Newburyport on a Sunday doesn't even leave until 8:52am. This is why the MBTA is really subpar, Boston does not offer the same amount of availability. Atlanta's MARTA, which is smaller than MBTA rail starts at 4:45am on weekdays/6am weekends. Even Minneapolis with about 3.8 million people in the area vs. Boston's 8.1 million offers 24/7 service between Minneapolis and St. Paul, as well as near 24hr service from Minneapolis to Mall of America via the airport.

Sure if you live in those apartments right next to Woodland Station paying $2500 a month for a 1 bedroom you'll think the MBTA is great. When I am in the city seeing things I do like riding the T around. But as far as early mornings/late nights/weekends it is not as good as it should be. There is a very big 9-5 mentality here in Boston.

tjerome wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

tjerome wrote:

Yup, biggest problem with Boston is the small city mentality but tries to act like a big city. You can't run a big city with a system like the MBTA's hours and expect it to work. You can't take the MBTA to get to Logan for even an 8am flight. The city and airport are over capacity, parking is an expensive mess at the airport (not just for the consumer...) Fact is that public transportation here sucks hence why people like me would rather drive into Boston for convenience. I am trying to move closer to Boston but rent is just so expensive I'm not sure it will happen.

There is just no room for growth at Logan, not enough space for the DL plans as well as WN and B6 still seem to be growing. And all of the international carriers. I still stand by my beliefs that in a good 70-80 years the whole terminal/road infrastructure will be leveled and rebuilt, and some of those homes to the west of where the Mass Pike comes up as you get to the airport. This airport can become a mess with a coating of snow as it is, imagine it with more DL, B6, international flights.

You can't take the MBTA for a flight out of Logan at 8am?! Ummm, where are you coming from. The T starts running at 5:45am. If you factor being there an hour early at 7am what's the problem? There's only 1 international flight that might be an issue and that's BA's BOS-LHR at 8am. But domestic would be no problem.

Sure you'd get there at 7am but if you're checking bags in and there's a long security line that is cutting it real close.

1st commuter rail from Newburyport on a Sunday doesn't even leave until 8:52am. This is why the MBTA is really subpar, Boston does not offer the same amount of availability. Atlanta's MARTA, which is smaller than MBTA rail starts at 4:45am on weekdays/6am weekends. Even Minneapolis with about 3.8 million people in the area vs. Boston's 8.1 million offers 24/7 service between Minneapolis and St. Paul, as well as near 24hr service from Minneapolis to Mall of America via the airport.

Sure if you live in those apartments right next to Woodland Station paying $2500 a month for a 1 bedroom you'll think the MBTA is great. When I am in the city seeing things I do like riding the T around. But as far as early mornings/late nights/weekends it is not as good as it should be. There is a very big 9-5 mentality here in Boston.

Hold on a minute - you're comparing the MBTA (which is our commuter rail network) to Atlanta's MARTA which is a subway. That's not a fair comparison. Why not compare the T to MARTA? The T starts running at 5:30-5:45 every morning, with slower frequency on weekends. The Atlanta metro area is much larger in land size than Boston so they need to start earlier. You might recall It wasn't that long ago that the T ran late night on weekends (through 2-3am) but not enough people used it. You also compared Minneapolis, which doesn't have a subway, rather a light rail system to Boston's true subway. I'm sure if Boston had a twin city or a major attraction like mall of America we might see something like that. Perhaps after the Wynn Casino is built we will due to it going to be a 24/7 operation and popular spot.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

Hold on a minute - you're comparing the MBTA (which is our commuter rail network) to Atlanta's MARTA which is a subway. That's not a fair comparison. Why not compare the T to MARTA? The T starts running at 5:30-5:45 every morning, with slower frequency on weekends. The Atlanta metro area is much larger in land size than Boston so they need to start earlier. You might recall It wasn't that long ago that the T ran late night on weekends (through 2-3am) but not enough people used it. You also compared Minneapolis, which doesn't have a subway, rather a light rail system to Boston's true subway. I'm sure if Boston had a twin city or a major attraction like mall of America we might see something like that. Perhaps after the Wynn Casino is built we will due to it going to be a 24/7 operation and popular spot.

This discussion thread is about the airports. And whether or not you think some aspects of the MBTA are good or bad, the connection between Logan and the rest of at least the eastern half of central New England, if not a substantial portion of New England, is an issue that is going to have to be dealt with. The Ted Williams Tunnel and Big Dig have bought some time, but the cost of living is crazy high. People have no choice but to live further out in the suburbs, and the airport HAS to start thinking about more than just connecting subway lines. I am shocked that PVD, BDL, and MHT are not busier than they are because it is so hard to get to BOS. When I am budgeting out a trip, I have to add $75 to $100 to the cost for transportation just between home and the airport, and at least an hour and a half (2 on weekends) each side for time. We talk about the issues with lack of gate space - I am convinced that the bigger crisis is parking and transportation to the suburbs. That is going to get to a point that it is going to start negatively affecting Boston Flights and aviation appeal.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

tjerome wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

You can't take the MBTA for a flight out of Logan at 8am?! Ummm, where are you coming from. The T starts running at 5:45am. If you factor being there an hour early at 7am what's the problem? There's only 1 international flight that might be an issue and that's BA's BOS-LHR at 8am. But domestic would be no problem.

Sure you'd get there at 7am but if you're checking bags in and there's a long security line that is cutting it real close.

1st commuter rail from Newburyport on a Sunday doesn't even leave until 8:52am. This is why the MBTA is really subpar, Boston does not offer the same amount of availability. Atlanta's MARTA, which is smaller than MBTA rail starts at 4:45am on weekdays/6am weekends. Even Minneapolis with about 3.8 million people in the area vs. Boston's 8.1 million offers 24/7 service between Minneapolis and St. Paul, as well as near 24hr service from Minneapolis to Mall of America via the airport.

Sure if you live in those apartments right next to Woodland Station paying $2500 a month for a 1 bedroom you'll think the MBTA is great. When I am in the city seeing things I do like riding the T around. But as far as early mornings/late nights/weekends it is not as good as it should be. There is a very big 9-5 mentality here in Boston.

Hold on a minute - you're comparing the MBTA (which is our commuter rail network) to Atlanta's MARTA which is a subway. That's not a fair comparison. Why not compare the T to MARTA? The T starts running at 5:30-5:45 every morning, with slower frequency on weekends. The Atlanta metro area is much larger in land size than Boston so they need to start earlier. You might recall It wasn't that long ago that the T ran late night on weekends (through 2-3am) but not enough people used it. You also compared Minneapolis, which doesn't have a subway, rather a light rail system to Boston's true subway. I'm sure if Boston had a twin city or a major attraction like mall of America we might see something like that. Perhaps after the Wynn Casino is built we will due to it going to be a 24/7 operation and popular spot.

I didn't intend for it to be unfair as commuter rail v. subway, I was trying to bring this in the big picture of the metro Boston area and all transit options and to emphasize my point that the earliest commuter rail train from Newburyport on a Sunday leaves at 8:52am, you wouldn't even make an 11am flight as it is (that would change when the Chelsea silver line opens next year). Again, was trying to point out the differences between different cities and the availability of the systems. Obviously MBTA w/ the CR does have a larger network although worse schedule. As far north as you can go on MARTA to the airport is 24.2 miles driving which isn't much shorter than Newburyport to Logan.

Anyway back on the topic of aviation...

Change of pace. Here at Logan for my BOS-ORD flight on B6 and the longest pre check line I have ever seen. Circled 3/4 of the way around the check in area. Still only took 20 minutes to get through, but that was nuts.
Also of interest it looks like B6 are using E1 in the mornings, which of course is quiet because only Porter is really around at E2 and the odd B6 international arrival.

Last two times I was spotting the Ba213 380 from the departures level of E it took then about 30 to 35 mins. To align the upper jetway wiith the boarding door. It seems like for the first 10 mins it moved on and then out and then ground personnel seemed to be inspecting jetway cables. However, yesterday was the first time the operation was seamless and the Whale was perfectly docked within 5 mins of arrival. Not trying to find issues if there are none but I was wondering if anyone knows if there are still teething problems with E12?

I do not have subscriber access but the headline of the article based on interview with CEO Ed Bastian
https://www.bizjournals.com/boston/news ... looks.html

I have tried to get access but this is a paid subscriber only. Looks certain that DL is going to go another major round of expansion once Terminal A goes completely to DL.

VS4ever wrote:

Change of pace. Here at Logan for my BOS-ORD flight on B6 and the longest pre check line I have ever seen. Circled 3/4 of the way around the check in area. Still only took 20 minutes to get through, but that was nuts.
Also of interest it looks like B6 are using E1 in the mornings, which of course is quiet because only Porter is really around at E2 and the odd B6 international arrival.

Yeah down by baggage claim (pre security where D used to be) and others there are some signs for direction to E1 JetBlue check-in to head upstairs to C.

Just an interesting thought for the new C gates, seems like it might be possible to extend Immigration and Customs to a few of them with a small amount of work.

Speaking of the D gates, does anybody happen to have any photos of the area back when it was considered Terminal D? I remember not long ago when you could see where counters used to be downstairs near where the Terminal C Logan Express pickup is. How did passengers access gates from that area?

No dice on getting into the BBJ article, but this one is a few days older and mentions the DL strategy and Boston growth.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/ne ... ports.html

mikegigs wrote:

Speaking of the D gates, does anybody happen to have any photos of the area back when it was considered Terminal D? I remember not long ago when you could see where counters used to be downstairs near where the Terminal C Logan Express pickup is. How did passengers access gates from that area?

Depends on when you are talking about, but there were a couple of ways at different times. Early on, when Alitalia was there, there was a stairway (and I think elevators) leading up to those gates. Later on, you would check-in there, but walk over to terminal E (using the back hallway). As you enter at teh taxi stand, there is a hallway to your right. Down behind there used to be a couple of baggage carousels, and some stairs and elevators that led up to the mid concourse level. There was a checkpoint there. I think they still may use it, but i havn't entered through E in ages.

VS4ever wrote:

Also of interest it looks like B6 are using E1 in the mornings, which of course is quiet because only Porter is really around at E2 and the odd B6 international arrival.

Looks like that was the flight from SDQ which arrived at 7:10am.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JBU8 ... /MDSD/KBOS
Then turned around and left to MCO
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JBU2 ... /KBOS/KMCO

cloudboy wrote:

mikegigs wrote:

Speaking of the D gates, does anybody happen to have any photos of the area back when it was considered Terminal D? I remember not long ago when you could see where counters used to be downstairs near where the Terminal C Logan Express pickup is. How did passengers access gates from that area?

Depends on when you are talking about, but there were a couple of ways at different times. Early on, when Alitalia was there, there was a stairway (and I think elevators) leading up to those gates. Later on, you would check-in there, but walk over to terminal E (using the back hallway). As you enter at teh taxi stand, there is a hallway to your right. Down behind there used to be a couple of baggage carousels, and some stairs and elevators that led up to the mid concourse level. There was a checkpoint there. I think they still may use it, but i havn't entered through E in ages.

Oh yes, the checkpoint in E that WN used to use? That would make sense as the gates they used in E used to be the D gates. Boy, that sure is a roundabout way to go upstairs... Guess that's what happens when you have to fit security into a terminal that wasn't designed for it. No wonder why they just consolidated it into C and E. Thanks for the info!

airbazar wrote:

VS4ever wrote:

Also of interest it looks like B6 are using E1 in the mornings, which of course is quiet because only Porter is really around at E2 and the odd B6 international arrival.

Looks like that was the flight from SDQ which arrived at 7:10am.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JBU8 ... /MDSD/KBOS
Then turned around and left to MCO
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JBU2 ... /KBOS/KMCO

Yes, that was it, but i swore that it wasn’t the only one. Just an interesting use of that gate and e widening the ability of B6, with very low use of E prior to around noon time, I would think Massport would encourage B6 to use that area, I am sure the post security food/drink places might appreciate the additional custom.

VS4ever wrote:

airbazar wrote:

VS4ever wrote:

Also of interest it looks like B6 are using E1 in the mornings, which of course is quiet because only Porter is really around at E2 and the odd B6 international arrival.

Looks like that was the flight from SDQ which arrived at 7:10am.

Yes, that was it, but i swore that it wasn’t the only one. Just an interesting use of that gate and e widening the ability of B6, with very low use of E prior to around noon time, I would think Massport would encourage B6 to use that area, I am sure the post security food/drink places might appreciate the additional custom.

Looks like they only have 2 early morning international arrivals, currently: SDQ and STI. I bet if they get Cuba, that will also arrive in the early morning.
KEF is also on their "wish list". That flight would very likely arrive back in Boston in the morning as well.

airbazar wrote:

VS4ever wrote:

airbazar wrote:

Looks like that was the flight from SDQ which arrived at 7:10am.

Yes, that was it, but i swore that it wasn’t the only one. Just an interesting use of that gate and e widening the ability of B6, with very low use of E prior to around noon time, I would think Massport would encourage B6 to use that area, I am sure the post security food/drink places might appreciate the additional custom.

Looks like they only have 2 early morning international arrivals, currently: SDQ and STI. I bet if they get Cuba, that will also arrive in the early morning.
KEF is also on their "wish list". That flight would very likely arrive back in Boston in the morning as well.

In a DOT filing for the slot- they gave proposed times. Its something like 10:00-13:30 leave BOS 14:30-18:00 return. No red-eyes.

Now that BA and others have switched seasons on us, I found a peculiarity: Next Wednesday there are THREE inbounds from London, with the FIRST of them arriving at 7pm. The other two land at around 8:30 and 10:30. I can’t ever remember when BA didn’t have a flight landing at Boston during the daylight hours, but we’ll get a total solar eclipse from them next Wednesday.

It is quite unusual, I have been trying to make booking for March and April on BA and it is hard to find consistency to their BOS-LHR flights. Good news is there's ample opportunity to be on the 787 and A380!

chrisnh wrote:

Now that BA and others have switched seasons on us, I found a peculiarity: Next Wednesday there are THREE inbounds from London, with the FIRST of them arriving at 7pm. The other two land at around 8:30 and 10:30. I can’t ever remember when BA didn’t have a flight landing at Boston during the daylight hours, but we’ll get a total solar eclipse from them next Wednesday.

Europe changed from DST today. We'll change next weekend. That's likely to be the reason for the peculiarity.

CX flew their new A359 to Newark today and the fact that BOS is still using the 77W must speak quite highly of the success of the HKG Route. First the daily bump, and now refusing to use a smaller plane. It’s probably one of the best new successes at BOS.

Flew the new DL PIT route this weekend. I normally always fly B6 on this route, but I picked DL because they were cheaper. That CRJ-900 was completely full. Hopefully a good sign of the route's initial health. Although it did seem they are heavily undercutting Jetblue to fill it. Of course I don't have a larger sample to draw on.

As I'd have anticipated, BA has switched the 238/239 rotation to be a 744 most days this winter. IIRC, they had it set as a 744 something like Sun-Wed and a 772/77W the other days for the winter timetable, but I had guessed that might be putting anticipated capacity a bit short, and it seems that it's been adjusted.

Curious to see what the loads are like on those flights. I can understand why they would use a 744 on 212/213 during the fall/winter -- I flew on 744s on both 212 and 213 in Fall 2014 -- as the former seems to fit with LHR connections going east and the latter with those arriving from the east, but I wouldn't have anticipated they'd use it on 238 or 239 on a regular basis (I have probably seen around 10 rotations of 238/239 operated by a 744 during my time living near BOS). Regardless, pretty cool to see G-BYGF flying over Downtown Boston this morning off of 27 on my way to work!

Phase two of the Priority Pass lounge in E is now open (The Club). Some pictures below in the link. So great to have a priority pass lounge in E with shower facilities!! Looks like they took over the space Lufthansa vacated to move to their new lounge.

http://www.aviationpros.com/article/123 ... an-airport

Thank you for sharing. Does anyone know if the BA lounge at Logan has been refurbished or is it a new lounge? The pics displayed here makes it look new:
https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/de ... ton-lounge
The last time when I went an year back it was the same old lounge.

It is a new lounge. It's now above the new gate section, above E12. EK, LH, BA all have new lounges. Haven't been up there since the official opening, but from what I hear they are beautiful.

FGITD wrote:

It is a new lounge. It's now above the new gate section, above E12. EK, LH, BA all have new lounges. Haven't been up there since the official opening, but from what I hear they are beautiful.

Here are pics of all the new lounges. I've only been in the BA one, its a major upgrade from the ones in the basement.

EK http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... on-lounge/
LH https://www.loungebuddy.com/BOS/lufthan ... e=homepage
BA https://thepointsguy.com/2017/03/britis ... on-lounge/

B6 mentioned shifting Caribbean Capacity to other destinations from SJU and SXM on recent call. They added Sunday BOS-UVF/GCM (just 12/24 on BOS-GCM) and Friday BOS-BGI for the Xmas New Years weeks. There may be more PUJ/CUN/MBJ/AUA but I couldn't tell quickly. Maybe there's more to come on this.

thanks to some collaboration with fellow thread member iyerhari, we've started a section on the new england stats site, initially comparing BOS pax numbers to a number of different US airports for 2017 by month, so you can see how we are performing against them, We are up to 13 right now at a top level and over time will start drilling in a bit deeper as we are able with the available stats from each airport.

So thanks to iyerhari for putting it together and the relevant data can be found here, along with Massport only stats going back to 2013 (more to come on that one as I complete the missing data i have going back to 1998.

http://awhitelocks.wixsite.com/newengla ... mparatives

Latest materials from the Massport board meeting. Plenty in there to drive some conversation. At the end are the FY 17 financials which are always interesting, lots of information about the quality ranking reports and slide 4 tells a very interesting story. To bag LATAM, BOS beat out SFO,LAS, ORD and IAD. Enjoy..
http://www.massport.com/media/2607/1020 ... ermark.pdf

VS4ever wrote:

Latest materials from the Massport board meeting. Plenty in there to drive some conversation. At the end are the FY 17 financials which are always interesting, lots of information about the quality ranking reports and slide 4 tells a very interesting story. To bag LATAM, BOS beat out SFO,LAS, ORD and IAD. Enjoy..
http://www.massport.com/media/2607/1020 ... ermark.pdf

Man... so glad to see them mention those new TSA Automated Smart Lane systems. I've used one at ATL and they work so much better. The line moves much faster. It would be amazing for them to add them at Logan.