After this point, All 3 777-200LRs will be operating continuously on AI's two longest flights: DEL-IAD and DEL-SFO. They cannot start any new USA destination (except maybe BOS) until they order new aircraft capable of India-USA. AI should have ordered B789, IMO.

Interesting they are using AI 103/104 for the route. If I recall correctly AI 173/174 was initially supposed to be 103/104, and some thought 103/104 would be used on a new 2nd daily New York flight.

dtw2hyd wrote:

kaitak744 wrote:

That is an aircraft that dozens of airlines around the world fly, and make money on. If Air India can't make money on flying a 777-200LR on a route like DEL-LHR, they have problems. It is not the plane's fault.

Of the whopping FOUR dozen B77Ls sold, EIGHT were with AI. Even Delta is not using those on ULH routes. Air Canada is using B787 to India not B77L. UA using B772 to EWR-DEL/BOM.

kaitak744 wrote:

Many airlines have had to deal with the unfortunate and annoying issues of pre LN100 787s. NONE of them complained anywhere near as much as Air India. Not even ANA.

But they don't have an Indian origin sales guy advising Boeing HQ, it is OK to delay warranty spares to AI.

kaitak744 wrote:

The Ethiopian 787 fire was not a "small hole" as you stated. It was major composite skin damage. It was the first repair of its kind, and it was done out in the field, away from any major vendor or Boeing facility. It is impressive that it was fixed at all.

How big a hole a 2xAA size battery pack which is encased in a metal case can cause

kaitak744 wrote:

Also, don't blame ME3 for Air India's problems. For people flying USA-India, and Europe-India, flying non-stop to India and bypassing the crowded ME3 hubs would be very much preferred. Air India has a massive advantage here. They can charge a premium for that simple benefit. And yet, they are very good at doing only one thing: loosing money.

US3 always claimed they cannot make money on ULH. Singapore CEO said the same, they were incurring losses on ULH for almost a decade. Even now AI ULH routes on the edge. That makes one question the ME3 claims.

BTW, AI's PLF beats ME3, particularly India-US and India-UK markets.

Delta purchased the -200LR because it is more efficient than the -200ER (the 787 was years away). And they do fly LAX-SYD and ATL-JNB. All of their other routes are medium to long-haul, where the -200LR makes sense. Same with Air Canada. The only reason they thought of offloading the -200LR was because of the 787-9.

You have no knowledge of what fire can do. Look at the damage photos.

UA flies EWR-BOM and EWR-DEL. NONSTOP. They would have slashed these routes years ago if they weren't making money. In fact, CO took delivery of 2 777-200ERs much later from their original batch, just to start the second India route.

Pretty much all DEL-USA routes are under 7,000nm. Longest being DEL-LAX, which is 6,963nm. On paper, a 787-10 could do that. That is not ULH. No DEL-India route is ULH.

Any properly functional airline should be able to make money being AI's position. And make lots of money. Stop defending them.

kaitak744 wrote:

Delta purchased the -200LR because it is more efficient than the -200ER (the 787 was years away). And they do fly LAX-SYD and ATL-JNB. All of their other routes are medium to long-haul, where the -200LR makes sense. Same with Air Canada. The only reason they thought of offloading the -200LR was because of the 787-9.

You have no knowledge of what fire can do. Look at the damage photos.

UA flies EWR-BOM and EWR-DEL. NONSTOP. They would have slashed these routes years ago if they weren't making money. In fact, CO took delivery of 2 777-200ERs much later from their original batch, just to start the second India route.

Pretty much all DEL-USA routes are under 7,000nm. Longest being DEL-LAX, which is 6,963nm. On paper, a 787-10 could do that. That is not ULH. No DEL-India route is ULH.

Any properly functional airline should be able to make money being AI's position. And make lots of money. Stop defending them.

So why weren't they serving these Indian destinations and "make money"? They don't have the debt AI has, they don't need to pay taxes and duties like AI does ex-India, there are no currency exchange issues.

SFO and IAD are UA hubs.

If anyone wants to know the 2016 market demand between India and Washington DC, you can find it here http://airline-news.blogspot.com/2017/0 ... delhi.html

Quite impressive numbers for HYD-IAD especially which I didn't think would have so much demand in particular !

dtw2hyd wrote:

So why weren't they serving these Indian destinations and "make money"? They don't have the debt AI has, they don't need to pay taxes and duties like AI does ex-India, there are no currency exchange issues.

SFO and IAD are UA hubs.

And UA (and CO) have declared bankruptcy at least twice to shed all debts, which AI cannot do. A lot easier to operate with a clean slate than with a heavy debt burden.

hohd wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

So why weren't they serving these Indian destinations and "make money"? They don't have the debt AI has, they don't need to pay taxes and duties like AI does ex-India, there are no currency exchange issues.

SFO and IAD are UA hubs.

And UA (and CO) have declared bankruptcy at least twice to shed all debts, which AI cannot do. A lot easier to operate with a clean slate than with a heavy debt burden.

Oh give me a break. AI has no debt burden. The government, who owns them, just writes off their loses every year.

yashk wrote:

Does anyone know why this flight does not have an afternoon arrival in DEL like AI's other flights from the US? Does AI want to increase utilization on the aircraft by flying it somewhere during the 14 hour gap?

I didn't do the math, but maybe a London rotation on AI111/112 is a possibility. AI104 lands early enough for the 77L to continue on AI111.

ojas wrote:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/toi-features/business/air-india-to-fly-delhi-washington-non-stop-from-july/articleshow/56593793.cms

Effective July 17, Air India will start 3 weekly flights between Delhi and Washington using a B777.

This is appalling. This will take more passengers away from U.S. carriers (if they had chosen to fly the route). What right does an Indian carrier have to carry passengers between India and the USA? This is a violation of OPEN SKIES!!!!!

(Sarcasm level=high)

IADCA wrote:

I'm not sure what the heck your reply had to do with my post, in any event - it's pretty much beyond dispute that AI has had some unusual maintenance practices and issues with its widebody fleet, including a 777 that was stranded for several months at EWR, a Star hub in the US with quite a bit less spare stand space than IAD.

"Beyond Dispute"?? NOT! That was a hatchet job written by an unemployed blogger with fantasies of being an aviation journalist. In India you need a big story to launch your career. That blogger in question hit paydirt with photos acquired from a disgruntled bawa at AI's maintenance hangars in BOM.

As has been discussed before, Photos from any airlines maintenance hangars can be used to give the same picture of an airline following questionable practices. I have some amazing doozies from Southwest Airlines maintenance hangars in Dallas. Nothing out of the ordinary. Every aircraft going through a C/D check is going to look like that. All airlines sometimes store aircraft for some period of time when required parts are unavailable. But a sleazy journalist can use these pictures to put up a blog questioning Southwest Airlines maintenance practices. Would that be right? Perhaps I should do just that: just to prove the point?

Do we need to go over this baseless AI bashing everytime the airline launches a new route? Lets get some perspective here! Can we get back to discussing this new route and how it fits into the longer term strategy of building up DEL as a competing hub?

kaitak744 wrote:

Oh give me a break. AI has no debt burden. The government, who owns them, just writes off their loses every year.

Oh! We wish that was the case! As a state-owned carrier, Air India was forced to buy aircraft it didnt need, at interest rates twice of what its competitors get from the open market. Even the recovery plan floated by the previous UPA govt basically only spread out the rate of repayments with very little in terms of actual investment.

Take away the debt, and Air India will be the most profitable airline in the country today. But there is no sign of the debt going away.

Air India is not just an airline. From the GoI perspective It is an important booster for the economy and especially so for the state-owned banks who get a regular source to milk.

BawliBooch wrote:

IADCA wrote:

I'm not sure what the heck your reply had to do with my post, in any event - it's pretty much beyond dispute that AI has had some unusual maintenance practices and issues with its widebody fleet, including a 777 that was stranded for several months at EWR, a Star hub in the US with quite a bit less spare stand space than IAD.

"Beyond Dispute"?? NOT! That was a hatchet job written by an unemployed blogger with fantasies of being an aviation journalist. In India you need a big story to launch your career. That blogger in question hit paydirt with photos acquired from a disgruntled bawa at AI's maintenance hangars in BOM.

As has been discussed before, Photos from any airlines maintenance hangars can be used to give the same picture of an airline following questionable practices. I have some amazing doozies from Southwest Airlines maintenance hangars in Dallas. Nothing out of the ordinary. Every aircraft going through a C/D check is going to look like that. All airlines sometimes store aircraft for some period of time when required parts are unavailable. But a sleazy journalist can use these pictures to put up a blog questioning Southwest Airlines maintenance practices. Would that be right? Perhaps I should do just that: just to prove the point?

Do we need to go over this baseless AI bashing everytime the airline launches a new route? Lets get some perspective here! Can we get back to discussing this new route and how it fits into the longer term strategy of building up DEL as a competing hub?

Yeah, other airlines have 777s and 787s sitting out of service for months at a time on multiple occasions in a short time frame. Yes, lots of them. NOT! (See how obnoxious it is when other people use rhetorical flourishes that are more appropriate for an 8-year old?) Seriously, please just leave this thread as it was two months ago, rather than trying to reopen exactly the same discussion that some other AI fanboy (see, it's nice to talk like an 8-year-old!) already lost. To answer your point substantively: it wasn't the photos. In fact, I don't think I ever looked at the photos.

As for the route, I wish them luck. They'll need it.

With this move, it is evident that DEL is becoming THE hub of AI. Any hope of AI starting a Mumbai-NY or Bengaluru-SF nonstop flight (both of which are longer than DEL-SFO) has vanished. With the ring of hubs (DEL, DXB, DOH, AUH, SIN) around peninsular India, it would take a lot of courage for 9W or a US carrier to launch a new nonstop flight to South India (BOM/BLR/HYD) despite their apparent high diasporas within NA.

voxkel wrote:

With this move, it is evident that DEL is becoming THE hub of AI. Any hope of AI starting a Mumbai-NY or Bengaluru-SF nonstop flight (both of which are longer than DEL-SFO) has vanished. With the ring of hubs (DEL, DXB, DOH, AUH, SIN) around peninsular India, it would take a lot of courage for 9W or a US carrier to launch a new nonstop flight to South India (BOM/BLR/HYD) despite their apparent high diasporas within NA.

UA flies to EWR nonstop, but that is free of any competition from ME3. Interestingly AI once operated a Mumbai-NYC 777-200LR nonstop but it failed miserably (<50% PLF) and was soon scrapped. I nevertheless find it astonishing that nobody has since started BOM-JFK; I guess the demand and yield aren't there, given EWR's nonstop flight and ME3's dominance at JFK.

As for the DEL-IAD flight, its nice that AI is gaining popularity as a viable option for travel to India from USA. If the service were improved than AI would honestly be hard to beat. Huge baggage allowance and economy seats that are as large as UA's PE for an affordable price is hard to beat. If AI marketed the economy seats as a premium experience, the flight would sell significantly more tickets.

IADCA wrote:

To answer your point substantively: it wasn't the photos. In fact, I don't think I ever looked at the photos.

Very substantive! Thank you! That explains it!

You didn't see the photos. Your whole opinion is based on idle gossip picked off from a blog that based on anonymous "sources". Has the blogger in question come out and backed up his claims with substantive evidence? What evidence do you have of AI's allegedly shoddy maintenance practices apart from the idle gossip on ANET? Anything?

Very credible!

FAA/CAA keep track of maintenance records of all airlines operating and have been known to bar airlines flying to their jurisidictions. Has any of that happened to Air India? Are you saying the FAA are incompetent?

BawliBooch wrote:

IADCA wrote:

To answer your point substantively: it wasn't the photos. In fact, I don't think I ever looked at the photos.

Very substantive! Thank you! That explains it!

You didn't see the photos. Your whole opinion is based on idle gossip picked off from a blog that based on anonymous "sources". Has the blogger in question come out and backed up his claims with substantive evidence? What evidence do you have of AI's allegedly shoddy maintenance practices apart from the idle gossip on ANET? Anything?

Very credible!

FAA/CAA keep track of maintenance records of all airlines operating and have been known to bar airlines flying to their jurisidictions. Has any of that happened to Air India? Are you saying the FAA are incompetent?

Seriously, man, your sarcastic teenager act doesn't suit you very well. Your point was that it was the photos on a blog that caused my view. A substantive response to that is that your entire premise was wrong because it was not the photos, or even the blog. It seems you won't like it as you appear to assume from your own notions where other people get their information, but it's not hard to find public discussions of maintenance issues or other fleet oddities with AI's widebody fleet. For example:

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2016 ... into-2016/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 082875.cms
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 455603.cms
http://timesofoman.com/article/72904/Bu ... paced-supp
http://www.hindustantimes.com/business/ ... TMQ9O.html (includes AI admitting they had issues and blaming them on Boeing - why the problems were so much worse for them than others is left unexplained)
http://www.postandcourier.com/business/ ... 95c24.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 611352.cms

Not just a.net either on the gossip/fanboy side:
https://flightaware.com/squawks/view/1/ ... reamliners

Of course you can try to blame Boeing or the GoI for its stupid customs and import regulations, but the fact remains that AI was the only airline documented as having these issues.

IADCA wrote:

Seriously, man, your sarcastic teenager act doesn't suit you very well. Your point was that it was the photos on a blog that caused my view. A substantive response to that is that your entire premise was wrong because it was not the photos, or even the blog. It seems you won't like it as you appear to assume from your own notions where other people get their information, but it's not hard to find public discussions of maintenance issues or other fleet oddities with AI's widebody fleet. For example:

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2016 ... into-2016/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 082875.cms
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 455603.cms
http://timesofoman.com/article/72904/Bu ... paced-supp
http://www.hindustantimes.com/business/ ... TMQ9O.html (includes AI admitting they had issues and blaming them on Boeing - why the problems were so much worse for them than others is left unexplained)
http://www.postandcourier.com/business/ ... 95c24.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 611352.cms

Not just a.net either on the gossip/fanboy side:
https://flightaware.com/squawks/view/1/ ... reamliners

Of course you can try to blame Boeing or the GoI for its stupid customs and import regulations, but the fact remains that AI was the only airline documented as having these issues.

Depends on who is telling the real truth, not a.net fact. Many repeating same lie many times doesn't make it a truth.

Boeing paid hefty compensation and extended warranty on components failing repeatedly. IMHO totally unnecessary had Boeing and its supply chain supplied warranty parts without delay initially. But Boeing HQ thought local guy will take care politically (without supplying warranty parts) and paid heavy price and bad press.

Moral of the story, never trust Indians (Heritage/Origin/Non-Resident...) while dealing with India. It will cost heavily.

Maybe Air India should consider some A350-900ULRs for expansion and to replace the much heavier 777-200LRs? They would reduce landing fees and if they don't work out, they can become regular A359s. This new route seems tailored for that, and all of the 77Ls are now occupied with no spare capacity.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Depends on who is telling the real truth, not a.net fact. Many repeating same lie many times doesn't make it a truth.

Sadly that seems to be the rule on ANET.

IADCA wrote:

It seems you won't like it as you appear to assume from your own notions where other people get their information, but it's not hard to find public discussions of maintenance issues or other fleet oddities with AI's widebody fleet. For example:

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2016 ... into-2016/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 082875.cms
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 455603.cms
http://timesofoman.com/article/72904/Bu ... paced-supp
http://www.hindustantimes.com/business/ ... TMQ9O.html (includes AI admitting they had issues and blaming them on Boeing - why the problems were so much worse for them than others is left unexplained)
http://www.postandcourier.com/business/ ... 95c24.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 611352.cms

Not just a.net either on the gossip/fanboy side:
https://flightaware.com/squawks/view/1/ ... reamliners

Of course you can try to blame Boeing or the GoI for its stupid customs and import regulations, but the fact remains that AI was the only airline documented as having these issues.

Have you read the articles you posted? You cant blame us for making an assumption that you are going by ANET lore when your rants are based on the work of said blogger. ANET lore has people believe that AI maintenance practices are somehow responsible for the grounded aircraft. We have been saying all along that it was Boeing that tried to wash its hands off after selling the airline lemons. Boeing assumed it did not have to honor warranties or provide spare parts because their "local guy" was the Aviation Ministers school chum and he would "manage" the fallout. Thats not quite what happened.

Suggest you read what is written in some of the links you posted.

For example:

"Keskar said this after his meeting with Air India chairman and managing director Ashwani Lohani today and discusses issues around the availability of spares for Boeing 787-Dreamliners.

Keskar said that not all spares are manufactured by Boeing and the availability of spares that take time are from vendors. "We are trying our best to ensure quick availability of spares. We are also arranging meetings between suppliers and Air India, where we are also present," Keskar added.

The early 787's were not upto spec. Boeing prioritised some airlines for support and issue resolution. Air India was ignored because Boeing felt their India representative would handle the fallout politically. THAT is the issue. The lies, the deception, the subterfuge practised by Boeing and its India office.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Moral of the story, never trust Indians (Heritage/Origin/Non-Resident...) while dealing with India. It will cost heavily.

Absolutely! Boeing has done serious damage to its credibility in India with the way they handled the Dreamliner sale. Contrast this with the way in which Airbus has handled these same issues. They are very different companies. Boeing stands thoroughly compromised.

behramjee wrote:

If anyone wants to know the 2016 market demand between India and Washington DC, you can find it here http://airline-news.blogspot.com/2017/0 ... delhi.html

Quite impressive numbers for HYD-IAD especially which I didn't think would have so much demand in particular !

There's a particularly large Telugu community in the northern Virginia suburbs; I have a cousin there, along with some family friends. Though I'm pretty sure that the Telugu population in the US is primarily concentrated around Houston as well as northern New Jersey.

BawliBooch wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Depends on who is telling the real truth, not a.net fact. Many repeating same lie many times doesn't make it a truth.

Sadly that seems to be the rule on ANET.

IADCA wrote:

It seems you won't like it as you appear to assume from your own notions where other people get their information, but it's not hard to find public discussions of maintenance issues or other fleet oddities with AI's widebody fleet. For example:

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2016 ... into-2016/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 082875.cms
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ind ... 455603.cms
http://timesofoman.com/article/72904/Bu ... paced-supp
http://www.hindustantimes.com/business/ ... TMQ9O.html (includes AI admitting they had issues and blaming them on Boeing - why the problems were so much worse for them than others is left unexplained)
http://www.postandcourier.com/business/ ... 95c24.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 611352.cms

Not just a.net either on the gossip/fanboy side:
https://flightaware.com/squawks/view/1/ ... reamliners

Of course you can try to blame Boeing or the GoI for its stupid customs and import regulations, but the fact remains that AI was the only airline documented as having these issues.

Have you read the articles you posted? You cant blame us for making an assumption that you are going by ANET lore when your rants are based on the work of said blogger. ANET lore has people believe that AI maintenance practices are somehow responsible for the grounded aircraft. We have been saying all along that it was Boeing that tried to wash its hands off after selling the airline lemons. Boeing assumed it did not have to honor warranties or provide spare parts because their "local guy" was the Aviation Ministers school chum and he would "manage" the fallout. Thats not quite what happened.

Suggest you read what is written in some of the links you posted.

For example:

"Keskar said this after his meeting with Air India chairman and managing director Ashwani Lohani today and discusses issues around the availability of spares for Boeing 787-Dreamliners.

Keskar said that not all spares are manufactured by Boeing and the availability of spares that take time are from vendors. "We are trying our best to ensure quick availability of spares. We are also arranging meetings between suppliers and Air India, where we are also present," Keskar added.

The early 787's were not upto spec. Boeing prioritised some airlines for support and issue resolution. Air India was ignored because Boeing felt their India representative would handle the fallout politically. THAT is the issue. The lies, the deception, the subterfuge practised by Boeing and its India office.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Moral of the story, never trust Indians (Heritage/Origin/Non-Resident...) while dealing with India. It will cost heavily.

Absolutely! Boeing has done serious damage to its credibility in India with the way they handled the Dreamliner sale. Contrast this with the way in which Airbus has handled these same issues. They are very different companies. Boeing stands thoroughly compromised.

I don't know how many times I need to tell you that my impression is not based on some blogger. I assume you're referring to the Bangalore Aviation guy, but I'm not even sure of that. I don't read his blog regularly and don't recall the last time I did, if ever. Yes, I have read the articles I posted. Your incredulous tone aside, selectively quoting them does not prove your point except so far as it demonstrates that AI and Boeing fought about who is responsible for what can only be interpreted as a rather significant screw-up. In other words, you're not disputing that a major screw-up happened and that it was essentially limited to AI. Given that there is not any way to bridge this gap, I think our discussion is at an end. Enjoy the rest of your week.

sudenmorsian wrote:

behramjee wrote:

If anyone wants to know the 2016 market demand between India and Washington DC, you can find it here http://airline-news.blogspot.com/2017/0 ... delhi.html

Quite impressive numbers for HYD-IAD especially which I didn't think would have so much demand in particular !

There's a particularly large Telugu community in the northern Virginia suburbs; I have a cousin there, along with some family friends. Though I'm pretty sure that the Telugu population in the US is primarily concentrated around Houston as well as northern New Jersey.

There are also tech firm links between the Dulles Corridor and Hyderabad, although of course not remotely on par with the Bay Area. So there should be some business demand there, as well.

Irehdna wrote:

After this point, All 3 777-200LRs will be operating continuously on AI's two longest flights: DEL-IAD and DEL-SFO. They cannot start any new USA destination (except maybe BOS) until they order new aircraft capable of India-USA. AI should have ordered B789, IMO.

Interesting they are using AI 103/104 for the route. If I recall correctly AI 173/174 was initially supposed to be 103/104, and some thought 103/104 would be used on a new 2nd daily New York flight.

They wanted the 789 but got shut down by the Board,

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 530374.cms

IADCA wrote:

In other words, you're not disputing that a major screw-up happened and that it was essentially limited to AI.

I cant say about other airlines who were affected because I don't know all the details. I do know some details about Air India because its a story we have worked on and followed up here. I do hear reports about Boeing playing similar games in Ethiopia but don't really know the details.

Boeing's big mistake in this episode was that they "outsourced" the dealing to some Indian-origin American dude who knew some local politicians. THAT is never a good idea! Has ended up destroying Boeing's credibility completely!

IADCA wrote:

Your incredulous tone aside, selectively quoting them does not prove your point except so far as it demonstrates that AI and Boeing fought about who is responsible for what can only be interpreted as a rather significant screw-up. In other words, you're not disputing that a major screw-up happened and that it was essentially limited to AI. Given that there is not any way to bridge this gap, I think our discussion is at an end. Enjoy the rest of your week.

Whose fault is that? Boeing/Suppliers could have supplied warranty parts like they did to every one else. But they took the easy way out to redirect those parts to other customers. May be the local sales guy told AI has so many spare B777s no rush to fix B788s. Instead they indirectly joined the free food blogger bandwagon blaming Air India's not able to buy spares and mx practices. In hindsight it was a major screw-up.

Having said that. AI-Boeing-B787 fiasco is water under the bridge. AI got paid very well, hope they will continue buy Boeing planes without holding any grudge.

If B788 didn't give so much trouble, they would have converted 3xB777s to 9-10xB737MAX and 6xB788s to B789s.

Per Seattle Times latest revelation, FAA knew Boeing had significant design and production issues and was imposing fines on Boeing, at the same time FAA political appointee was justifying DGCA downgrade is related to their ability not able to handle "advanced" plane.

dtw2hyd wrote:

IADCA wrote:

Your incredulous tone aside, selectively quoting them does not prove your point except so far as it demonstrates that AI and Boeing fought about who is responsible for what can only be interpreted as a rather significant screw-up. In other words, you're not disputing that a major screw-up happened and that it was essentially limited to AI. Given that there is not any way to bridge this gap, I think our discussion is at an end. Enjoy the rest of your week.

Whose fault is that?

The previous sentence to the one you bolded, as well as multiple statements in previous posts, are all that needs to be said as to your question. It's already been covered. I don't know why you keep responding to posts that aren't directed at you and when I've made clear I'm not interested in discussing the topic further, especially with someone like you - where I don't even need to read your posts to know what they say. (That doesn't go for just this thread; it goes for everything. I've been trying, mostly successfully, to ignore your posts for years at this point.)

IADCA wrote:

The previous sentence to the one you bolded, as well as multiple statements in previous posts, are all that needs to be said as to your question. It's already been covered. I don't know why you keep responding to posts that aren't directed at you and when I've made clear I'm not interested in discussing the topic further, especially with someone like you - where I don't even need to read your posts to know what they say. (That doesn't go for just this thread; it goes for everything. I've been trying, mostly successfully, to ignore your posts for years at this point.)

May be you should remove indirect reference in post #112. It is not who has highest RR on a.net, what matters is who is telling the truth.

Just to reiterate it is not AI's fault.

dtw2hyd wrote:

IADCA wrote:

The previous sentence to the one you bolded, as well as multiple statements in previous posts, are all that needs to be said as to your question. It's already been covered. I don't know why you keep responding to posts that aren't directed at you and when I've made clear I'm not interested in discussing the topic further, especially with someone like you - where I don't even need to read your posts to know what they say. (That doesn't go for just this thread; it goes for everything. I've been trying, mostly successfully, to ignore your posts for years at this point.)

May be you should remove indirect reference in post #112. It is not who has highest RR on a.net, what matters is who is telling the truth.

Just to reiterate it is not AI's fault.

Thank you for your usual reply, much of which is nonsensical or undisputed to the extent that it makes any sense at all. At least you managed to sum up your post, every post, in one concluding sentence.

tsnamm wrote:

capitalflyer wrote:

This is a big get for IAD. Fills a glaring hole in the route map. There is a huge S. Asian population around IAD, no doubt they will be pleased to have a nonstop option. AI will print money on this route. What is up next, Rio, Cairo, Tel Aviv, Lagos, Hong Kong, Sydney, maybe Athens?

Too bad UA seems to have no interest in this.

I've always wondered what UA's plan is for IAD as a hub to Asia. They offer direct flights to PEK and NRT, but on 772s with a 2-4-2 configuration in business class. That hardly seems competitive, especially considering NH and CA fly the same routes.

For AI's new route, I think I read somewhere that the business class seats will be recliner-style instead of fully-flat bed seats. Can anyone confirm? That doesn't seem like a wise choice for such a long flight. I think in particular the case where a traveler is going from IAD to some city in India other than DEL. At that point, they have to make a connection regardless (either in DEL with AI, or some other airport with another carrier) and the ME3, among others, all serve IAD.

IADCA wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Just to reiterate it is not AI's fault.

Thank you for your usual reply, much of which is nonsensical or undisputed to the extent that it makes any sense at all. At least you managed to sum up your post, every post, in one concluding sentence.

Care to explain how my statements are nonsensical, except that they have no place on a.net.

dtw2hyd wrote:

IADCA wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Just to reiterate it is not AI's fault.

Thank you for your usual reply, much of which is nonsensical or undisputed to the extent that it makes any sense at all. At least you managed to sum up your post, every post, in one concluding sentence.

Care to explain how my statements are nonsensical, except that they have no place on a.net.

Your reference to my post 112 didn't make sense, as nothing in that post takes a position on the point you are apparently trying to reference it for. Similarly, your reference to RR does not make any sense, as nobody referred to RR in any context as any source of authority for anything. To the extent that it does make any sense, it's undisputed - nobody is arguing that someone's respect rating means that they are right. It's a complete straw man to the extent it makes any sense at all.

sudenmorsian wrote:

behramjee wrote:

If anyone wants to know the 2016 market demand between India and Washington DC, you can find it here http://airline-news.blogspot.com/2017/0 ... delhi.html

Quite impressive numbers for HYD-IAD especially which I didn't think would have so much demand in particular !

There's a particularly large Telugu community in the northern Virginia suburbs; I have a cousin there, along with some family friends. Though I'm pretty sure that the Telugu population in the US is primarily concentrated around Houston as well as northern New Jersey.

Even ATL and ORD have a very strong Telegu community presence owing largely to the IT industry. Picked up the wife from ATL few weeks back on QR and noticed a heavy count of HYD tags coming out of arrivals

IADCA wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

IADCA wrote:

Thank you for your usual reply, much of which is nonsensical or undisputed to the extent that it makes any sense at all. At least you managed to sum up your post, every post, in one concluding sentence.

Care to explain how my statements are nonsensical, except that they have no place on a.net.

Your reference to my post 112 didn't make sense, as nothing in that post takes a position on the point you are apparently trying to reference it for. Similarly, your reference to RR does not make any sense, as nobody referred to RR in any context as any source of authority for anything. To the extent that it does make any sense, it's undisputed - nobody is arguing that someone's respect rating means that they are right. It's a complete straw man to the extent it makes any sense at all.

May be you should re-read #112.

Coming back to your false allegations about AI mx practices, there is enough evidence to prove who is at fault, but you selectively based your opinions on falsehood, and there is enough support on a.net to support same falsehood under the disguise of facts.

AI B787s had many issues with spoiler actuators, have you seen any AI Engineering personnel hanging on to spoilers on their way to Europe. What could have they done to damage a spoiler actuator?

Components failed within weeks of delivery, well before first maintenance threshold.

dtw2hyd wrote:

IADCA wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Care to explain how my statements are nonsensical, except that they have no place on a.net.

Your reference to my post 112 didn't make sense, as nothing in that post takes a position on the point you are apparently trying to reference it for. Similarly, your reference to RR does not make any sense, as nobody referred to RR in any context as any source of authority for anything. To the extent that it does make any sense, it's undisputed - nobody is arguing that someone's respect rating means that they are right. It's a complete straw man to the extent it makes any sense at all.

May be you should re-read #112.

Coming back to your false allegations about AI mx practices, there is enough evidence to prove who is at fault, but you selectively based your opinions on falsehood, and there is enough support on a.net to support same falsehood under the disguise of facts.

AI B787s had many issues with spoiler actuators, have you seen any AI Engineering personnel hanging on to spoilers on their way to Europe. What could have they done to damage a spoiler actuator?

Components failed within weeks of delivery, well before first maintenance threshold.

I've read 112, and I stand by what I said. It's funny that you seem to think you know more about the subtextual meaning of a post than the person who wrote it. And coming back to my post 125, I am not interested in discussing this subject, or any other, with you. As such, I won't be replying further.

You have already made your points on this subject multiple times on multiple threads that I have been unfortunate enough to read, and I have found them unconvincing in every instance. There is no need to rehash that debate here, especially as others far more knowledgeable than myself have already had it with you. Part of the problem you seem to be encountering with some supposed alternate reality on this website is that your own circular logic and poor debating skills cause you to lose debates. In other words, a lot of the perception problem about which you complain is due to your own incompetence. At least BawliBooch is an able and rational debater, though I may disagree with him on some of his points on this subject.

IADCA wrote:

You have already made your points on this subject multiple times on multiple threads that I have been unfortunate enough to read, and I have found them unconvincing in every instance. There is no need to rehash that debate here, especially as others far more knowledgeable than myself have already had it with you. Part of the problem you seem to be encountering with some supposed alternate reality on this website is that your own circular logic and poor debating skills cause you to lose debates. In other words, a lot of the perception problem about which you complain is due to your own incompetence. At least BawliBooch is an able and rational debater, though I may disagree with him on some of his points on this subject.

May be I should use dollies to explain like Sean Spicer(SNL).

seabosdca wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

77Ls- Mothballed when there was no demand and reactivated when there is demand. I am sure a.net would have preferred AI hiring few guys and few tugs, and keep moving surplus capacity around the hub. Like a famous one doing right now.

Well, now that you mention it... they would probably have saved quite a bit of money had they done what every other airline with excess capacity of newish frames does, and either 1) lease the frames out to another airline or 2) kept flying the frames at reduced utilization. But instead they decided to let two of them rot, and then had to refurbish them at considerable expense.

787 - No other airline received B788's with so many birth defects either. Now that we know the reason why ANI was AOG and who was delaying parts, it is a shame.

Two theories here: 1) that AI's 787s were somehow inexplicably worse than other 787s in the same production block or even in earlier blocks (ANA's LN 7-9 and "terrible teens"; or 2) that AI for whatever reason was not driven to fix the issues in a timely manner. I find one more believable than the other.

Ethiopian, China Southern, ANA, JAL and United all have frames from the same block. All of them had to do some updates. All of them finished the updates in a matter of less than a week. AI, on the other hand, took twice as long to do the updates as Ethiopian took to repair an aircraft (which also happened to be from the same block) that got mangled by fire.

Keep it in mind, these WBs were purchased as a quid-pro-quo not that AI needed or wanted them.

This is a valid point, but it's a sign that some of the frames should have been subleased. There's no shortage of willing lessees of 787s in particular.

Fundamental challenge that AI had was mismanagement and political interference in pretty much everything they did. Since 2014 with new government in place, the 2nd factor is cut down ( except the Ahmedabad LHR EWR service).

On the first, they have a new CEO who does not come from Airline industry but seems to be getting it right.

On the other hand, I am not sure if AI needs to be in start alliance. They dont seem that welcome there even after factoring in new service to Vienna etc. Heck in ORD, they are not even listed as a partner by UA.

I would suggest they move to OW which has a India sized hole in it.

Subu

jfidler wrote:

tsnamm wrote:

capitalflyer wrote:

This is a big get for IAD. Fills a glaring hole in the route map. There is a huge S. Asian population around IAD, no doubt they will be pleased to have a nonstop option. AI will print money on this route. What is up next, Rio, Cairo, Tel Aviv, Lagos, Hong Kong, Sydney, maybe Athens?

Too bad UA seems to have no interest in this.

I've always wondered what UA's plan is for IAD as a hub to Asia. They offer direct flights to PEK and NRT, but on 772s with a 2-4-2 configuration in business class. That hardly seems competitive, especially considering NH and CA fly the same routes.

For AI's new route, I think I read somewhere that the business class seats will be recliner-style instead of fully-flat bed seats. Can anyone confirm? That doesn't seem like a wise choice for such a long flight. I think in particular the case where a traveler is going from IAD to some city in India other than DEL. At that point, they have to make a connection regardless (either in DEL with AI, or some other airport with another carrier) and the ME3, among others, all serve IAD.

AI widedody fleet is fully flat bed in Business class except for B747. In 777 it is 2-3-2 layout and 2-2-2 layout in 787

AI has its DEL hub organized pretty well from personal experience. Good luck to them

Subu

subramak1 wrote:

AI widedody fleet is fully flat bed in Business class except for B747. In 777 it is 2-3-2 layout and 2-2-2 layout in 787

AI has its DEL hub organized pretty well from personal experience. Good luck to them

The 777s have angle seats, they are not fully flat. To be fair, EK also does not offer 180 degree business class in 777, and AI's business is priced much more affordably than that of EK/EY/QR.

[/quote]

Fundamental challenge that AI had was mismanagement and political interference in pretty much everything they did. Since 2014 with new government in place, the 2nd factor is cut down ( except the Ahmedabad LHR EWR service).

On the first, they have a new CEO who does not come from Airline industry but seems to be getting it right.

On the other hand, I am not sure if AI needs to be in start alliance. They dont seem that welcome there even after factoring in new service to Vienna etc. Heck in ORD, they are not even listed as a partner by UA.

I would suggest they move to OW which has a India sized hole in it.

Subu[/quote]

I disagree - while UA and AI should partner closer (and I think they announced they are), AI still benefits from Star - (1) Star's hubs in NA are KEY Indian destinations (both for origin and destination and VFR and business). Its sort of amazing how they match up (2) LH is a key partner to AI, (3) UA offers reasonably good earning on AI, so pax in Star hubs, which again are key Indian O&D markets, are not too hurt by flying AI - that's really the big change for AI is getting US based pax that are Star captive willing to fly them because AI offers nonstop AND afternoon arrivals in DEL (4) The GOI needs to really look into the fairness of JVs that do not include an Indian partner. Look at China and how it bans the transpacific JVs between US and Japanese airlines.

jfidler wrote:

For AI's new route, I think I read somewhere that the business class seats will be recliner-style instead of fully-flat bed seats.

You are correct
B77L - angled flat
B77W/B788 full flat

The Air India website claims the flight is now a 787-8!
http://www.airindia.in/delhi-to-washington.htm

Is this true, and if so, does the 787-8 have the range of such a long flight?

AI website indicates that it will be B-787

http://www.airindia.in/delhi-to-washington.htm

algeorge2015 wrote:

AI website indicates that it will be B-787

http://www.airindia.com/delhi-to-washington.htm

Their booking engine still says 777-200LR, perhaps they have not loaded the 787 into the systems?'

In any case, a switch to 787 may actually be true and not just a website mistake. "18 seats in Business Class and 238 seats in Economy Class" actually correctly matches the configuration of 787. If so, IAD would be the first nonstop US service with 787 (the EWR flight is via LHR).

algeorge2015 wrote:

AI website indicates that it will be B-787

http://www.airindia.in/delhi-to-washington.htm

The current longest B788 flight is UA TLV-SFO. 7422 miles. DEL-IAD is 7506 miles, so sure it has got the range.
(GC distance)

How interesting this could be. B788 opens up so many destinations in US for AI..

As of now, even first class is available for booking. B788 has no first class.

anshabhi wrote:

algeorge2015 wrote:

AI website indicates that it will be B-787

http://www.airindia.in/delhi-to-washington.htm

The current longest B788 flight is UA TLV-SFO. 7422 miles. DEL-IAD is 7506 miles, so sure it has got the range.
(GC distance)

How interesting this could be. B788 opens up so many destinations in US for AI..

As of now, even first class is available for booking. B788 has no first class.

I am not so sure that AI 788s have the legs to fly DEL-IAD non-stop. Anecdotal evidence suggests that AI SYD-DEL is sometimes weight-restricted.

devmapper wrote:

I am not so sure that AI 788s have the legs to fly DEL-IAD non-stop. Anecdotal evidence suggests that AI SYD-DEL is sometimes weight-restricted.

Importantly, AI's luggage allowance is much more than most airlines, so naturally travellers will being in more luggage (and cargo/weight) onto the aircraft. This flight is longer than the longest 788 flight currently, and that is a much more sparse configuration than AI's. The flight may have to be weight restricted, but I figure it would fill up more (no need to fly a mostly empty F class), and save tremendously on fuel costs.

I wouldn't be surprised of more of AI's routes switch to B788. I could see 10x JFK and ORD definitely possible with 788, and the 77Ws could be relocated to shorter, higher-demand routes in Asia and the Middle East.

77L vs 788

Good
Even with 40 seats blocked, 788 can carry same number of Y pax as 77L.
Shred the dead weight of F class with 23% PLF.
J gets lie flat.
Cutting J capacity in half increases J load factor %.
IFE may be better, WiFi integration easy and content streaming may be possibility.

Bad
No crew rest areas. Hopefully they are getting last 4-5 with CRAs.
Loss in Y seat pitch.
Small sub fleet, rotation issues.

dtw2hyd wrote:

77L vs 788

Good
Even with 40 seats blocked, 788 can carry same number of Y pax as 77L.
Shred the dead weight of F class with 23% PLF.
J gets lie flat.
Cutting J capacity in half increases J load factor %.
IFE may be better, WiFi integration easy and content streaming may be possibility.

Bad
No crew rest areas. Hopefully they are getting last 4-5 with CRAs.
Loss in Y seat pitch.
Small sub fleet, rotation issues.

AI's website and google flights all show a 77L so don't know where people are safe a 787. Ai needs to refresh their 77L as they announced. Take out the F class and upgrade J and increase Y capacity to match EK

What AI needs is a [dirt] cheap [Eastern] European scissor hub.

AI & 9W sell LHR slots.
Partner with GMR/GVK/Tata/Adani/Ambani buy a derelict airport in Eastern Europe where there are no night flight restrictions.
Partner with local carrier
Have OpenSkies with 5th freedom and guage change.
Taj SATS or local European kitchen with expertise in Indian food can start a kitchen
Have crew base and even hire local flight attendants.

Simple mandatory interline wayport with capsule hotel in case of IRROPS. No need for visas to Indian PP holders.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

AI's website and google flights all show a 77L so don't know where people are safe a 787. Ai needs to refresh their 77L as they announced. Take out the F class and upgrade J and increase Y capacity to match EK

This link (http://www.airindia.in/delhi-to-washington.htm) on Air India's website claims the flight will be operated by B-787. I think it is a better option for a new route as high-paying yield may not be there for F yet.