Why does BA not serve Charlotte, NC?

dfwjim1 · Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:38 pm

I have flown in and out of Charlotte, NC a couple of times and I have been impressed by AA's hub operation but surprised that BA does not serve the airport.

Does BA have any plans to come to CLT down the road?

A60Stock · Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:40 pm

I wouldn't bet on it right now, as their bedfellows in AA already operate a CLT-LHR service....

Hurricane · Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:59 pm

They used to! I don't recall exactly why they stopped service, but I assume the AA LHR service has it covered for now.

NichCage · Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:43 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
I have flown in and out of Charlotte, NC a couple of times and I have been impressed by AA's hub operation but surprised that BA does not serve the airport.

Does BA have any plans to come to CLT down the road?

Charlotte is a good hub, however it has seen many cuts to international routes as part of the merger with AA. For example, MAN, BRU, LIS, GRU, and GIG were cut for example.

deltairlines · Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:49 pm

Not to mention the current AA planes (less premium heavy, more coach heavy) are likely a better fit for CLT-LHR than BA's planes, which are significantly more premium-heavy. For a route that likely has a lot of flow traffic, best to try to fill the front cabin on the small local traffic and then rely on connections and O&D for the back.

grbauc · Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:56 pm

NichCage wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
I have flown in and out of Charlotte, NC a couple of times and I have been impressed by AA's hub operation but surprised that BA does not serve the airport.

Does BA have any plans to come to CLT down the road?

Charlotte is a good hub, however it has seen many cuts to international routes as part of the merger with AA. For example, MAN, BRU, LIS, GRU, and GIG were cut for example.

Yea they were cut but access to LHR AA/BA main hub for Europe should increase. I can see if BA has the planes available and the joint venture can profit from it happening. Those cut at CLT make sense in the new AA traffic flows.

Polot · Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:02 am

grbauc wrote:
NichCage wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
I have flown in and out of Charlotte, NC a couple of times and I have been impressed by AA's hub operation but surprised that BA does not serve the airport.

Does BA have any plans to come to CLT down the road?

Charlotte is a good hub, however it has seen many cuts to international routes as part of the merger with AA. For example, MAN, BRU, LIS, GRU, and GIG were cut for example.

Yea they were cut but access to LHR AA/BA main hub for Europe should increase. I can see if BA has the planes available and the joint venture can profit from it happening. Those cut at CLT make sense in the new AA traffic flows.

They did increase access to LHR. AA added a 2nd daily flight (using US metal) not to long after the US/AA merger closed.

Softaero · Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:08 am

Because their JV partner AA already operates the route. Under the Oneworld transatlantic partnership, both carriers share revenues on these routes.

Cunard · Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:26 am

The same could be asked why AA don't operate BOS to LHR anymore, the AA/BA JV has it covered with BA flying the route as is the case with CLT to LHR with AA flying the route.

BA flew to CLT for quite a few years from 1992 initially from LGW in partnership with US untill taking over the route them selfs, it was moved to LHR in 1998 and discontinued after a cut back in the network shortly after 9/11.

acentauri · Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:30 am

BA typically doesn't start service to a city already served by a partner (in this case AA) unless there is sufficient premium O&D, which is usually provided by business Contracts as well as retail passengers. I can't see CLT providing sufficient premium traffic to fill 2 A330s and either a BA 767 or 787-8. IMO, if BA really wanted to serve CLT, they could easily negotiate with AA to replace one of their flights.

Cunard · Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:53 am

Acentauri

'either a BA 767 or 787-8'

BA do not fly Boeing 767 long haul anymore as the fleet has been retired, they only have 6 remaining Boeing 767 in service that are configured for short haul.

AI126 · Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:34 am

Given that CLT is more of a connecting hub than an O&D hub (like JFK or ORD), it doesn't really seem to warrant the premium-heavy service from BA planes. Also, doesn't BA have a shortage of birds at the moment? Didn't they have to lease planes just to keep their LHR slots?

ahj2000 · Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:03 am

BA was partners with US Airways before the alliances really started. (Imagine what a 2000 USAir would have done in Oneworld...) They dropped Charlotte after they cut ties.
Nowadays that they are partners again, they indirectly have a 2x A333 service on the route with almost 600 seats a day that they share revenue and whatnot on without using their precious slots. The AA flights are timed pretty well too
Also, quick rant: why is Charlotte always followed by , NC ? Even in the US Airways days a flight to Charlotte always said Charlotte, NC while the other hubs were Philadelphia and Phoenix. A lot of news outlets do it too...

Flighty · Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:25 am

NichCage wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
I have flown in and out of Charlotte, NC a couple of times and I have been impressed by AA's hub operation but surprised that BA does not serve the airport.

Does BA have any plans to come to CLT down the road?

Charlotte is a good hub, however it has seen many cuts to international routes as part of the merger with AA. For example, MAN, BRU, LIS, GRU, and GIG were cut for example.

CLT has lost some "second tier" Europe destinations, but those were all new and experimental. And, a number of them stayed. CLT overall has quite good Europe services for a city its size.

The winter is a little sparse. I am seeing 4x A333 to Europe daily... 1x FRA, 1x MUC on LH and 2x LHR. Am I missing any CLT winter flights there? Not great, compared to their summer array of flights.

BNAOWB · Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:18 am

ahj2000 wrote:
Also, quick rant: why is Charlotte always followed by , NC ? Even in the US Airways days a flight to Charlotte always said Charlotte, NC while the other hubs were Philadelphia and Phoenix. A lot of news outlets do it too...

A good question. In the context of aviation, perhaps to avoid confusion with similar sounding Charlottesville (CHO) or with the first five letters of "Charleston" (CHS or CRW)? Maybe STT was formerly referred to as "Charlotte Amalie"?

DaufuskieGuy · Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:03 pm

Flighty wrote:
NichCage wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
I have flown in and out of Charlotte, NC a couple of times and I have been impressed by AA's hub operation but surprised that BA does not serve the airport.

Does BA have any plans to come to CLT down the road?

Charlotte is a good hub, however it has seen many cuts to international routes as part of the merger with AA. For example, MAN, BRU, LIS, GRU, and GIG were cut for example.

CLT has lost some "second tier" Europe destinations, but those were all new and experimental. And, a number of them stayed. CLT overall has quite good Europe services for a city its size.

The winter is a little sparse. I am seeing 4x A333 to Europe daily... 1x FRA, 1x MUC on LH and 2x LHR. Am I missing any CLT winter flights there? Not great, compared to their summer array of flights.

strange that Star can manage two flights while Skyteam has none? And I never thought MUC service would survive when US dropped out of Star.

bmacleod · Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:18 pm

ATL is relatively a short hop from CLT - you can try connecting to a BA flight there.

Load factors and route market are critical in an major airlines decision to open a new route up.

usairways85 · Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:19 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
strange that Star can manage two flights while Skyteam has none? And I never thought MUC service would survive when US dropped out of Star.

Star only has 1. 1x MUC-CLT. They don't fly FRA-CLT, AA does. Lot's of connections to Germany in the CLT area and the MUC-CLT flight is likely a holdout from the *A days when it was surprisingly a daily 346.

That aside, for reasons already mentioned I doubt BA comes to CLT. No need to split LHR operations and AA has the less premium cabin heavy aircraft that are likely better suited for the operation.

Kilopond · Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:46 pm

Hurricane wrote:
They used to! I don't recall exactly why they stopped service [...]

Here is an article from 1996 about the dirty war of roses between British Airways and USAir.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/31/busin ... rican.html

deltairlines · Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:48 pm

usairways85 wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
strange that Star can manage two flights while Skyteam has none? And I never thought MUC service would survive when US dropped out of Star.

Star only has 1. 1x MUC-CLT. They don't fly FRA-CLT, AA does. Lot's of connections to Germany in the CLT area and the MUC-CLT flight is likely a holdout from the *A days when it was surprisingly a daily 346.

MUC-CLT is helped immensely by the auto industry - there are a decent number of plants in Upstate South Carolina within 90 minutes drive of CLT.

JetBlueCLT · Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:28 pm

4 flights to Europe from CLT is great for this time of year. Before the merger it use to be only 2 AA flights and 1 LH. CLT-FRA has been upgraded to an A333 and LHR is still going strong with double A333s. No need for BA when AA has 2 daily flights on it. Would like to see DUB or MAD go year round, time will tell on those. But those routes and CDG, FCO, BCN will be back in the spring!

BMW helps greatly for the Lufthansa flights.

Looking forward to seeing CLT grow over the years!

CV880 · Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:45 pm

Hurricane wrote:

They used to! I don't recall exactly why they stopped service, but I assume the AA LHR service has it covered for now.

BA served CLT in the early to mid 90's when Colin Marshall ran the airline.....I believe that his Son lived in CLT at the time, which didn't hurt. With US flying Euro Routes from CLT, it made more sense for US to take over LON & FRA routes. LH stayed in the market but changed to MUC due to demand for service by German based companies in NW South Carolina and CLT such as BMW, Freightliner and Siemens (Westinghouse).

USAirALB · Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:41 pm

BA served CLT from 1992 to 2002.

Initially, BA took CLT-LGW over from US as part of their partnership. These flights were flown by 762s in the full BA livery and had BA cabins, but were flown by US crews in the BA uniform.

As relations between BA and US began to sour (sometime around 1997-98), US began to operate CLT-LGW with their own metal (762). BA also began to operate CLT-LGW with their own metal. At first, BA used the 763 exclusively, but then operated CLT-LGW with a 777 during periods in 1998/1999/2000/2001.

After 9/11, BA suspended the CLT-LGW nonstop and elected to fly CLT-BWI-LHR instead, with a 763. CLT was discontinued all together in 2002 as part of the airlines cost-cutting program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRbryko8BY0

Interestingly, BA was the only airline (so far) to operate the 763 and 777 into CLT. BA also had a Terraces Lounge in the Upper Mezzanine of the Atrium, which is now a USO lounge.

johns624 · Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:50 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
Also, quick rant: why is Charlotte always followed by , NC ? Even in the US Airways days a flight to Charlotte always said Charlotte, NC while the other hubs were Philadelphia and Phoenix. A lot of news outlets do it too...

Because Charlotte just grew in the last 20 years and people aren't as familiar with it nationally as some other cities.

AVLAirlineFreq · Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:52 pm

The simple answer here is that BA would serve CLT if it weren't already served by AA.

Cubsrule · Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:58 pm

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
The simple answer here is that BA would serve CLT if it weren't already served by AA.

I'm not sure that's true when BA does not serve the likes of CMH, IND and STL, which are broadly comparable cities.

AVLAirlineFreq · Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:11 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
The simple answer here is that BA would serve CLT if it weren't already served by AA.

I'm not sure that's true when BA does not serve the likes of CMH, IND and STL, which are broadly comparable cities.

Just to clarify...I meant as a result of a AA hub being located there. Whether they would serve it in the absence of a hub is a matter of debate. I can see both sides.

USAirALB · Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:43 pm

I would say that if CLT was not an airline hub, yet still had its strong business base and its current (growing) population, then yes, you would probably see BA doing CLT-LON. CLT is a very different city, with a very different economic climate, as compared to CMH/IND/STL.

The one thing is that with the J/V between AA/BA, it essentially doesn't matter who is operating the flight. It's metal neutral. If AA/BA feel that a BA 787/777 would bring in better performance on the route than a current AA A333, they will swap it out.

Besides, all A333s will be retired within the next year anyways. 777s will ultimately come to CLT-LHR.

The current schedule on CLT-LHR is 2x A333. After the A333s are retired, I wouldn't be surprised to see the new schedule be:

AA: 1x 772
BA: 1x 787-8

Interestingly, after the 77W, the A333s have the largest seating capacity of any AA aircraft, at 291 seats.

Rajahdhani · Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:20 pm

deltairlines wrote:
Not to mention the current AA planes (less premium heavy, more coach heavy) are likely a better fit for CLT-LHR than BA's planes, which are significantly more premium-heavy. For a route that likely has a lot of flow traffic, best to try to fill the front cabin on the small local traffic and then rely on connections and O&D for the back.

Conversely, BA's LGW fleet is equipped within the ratios that would probably satisfy your equation, and would have the bonus of BA's LGW feed, and LGW's ability to capture lower-costing traffic, at better yields. This would also fend off any potential LGW-CLT from a competitor (namely DY). Just playing an advocate here, but could the business case exist for BA to serve LGW-CLT? Or, perhaps a return of AA (and, for that matter US) to LGW (which is less likely, as they do share costs).

Cubsrule · Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:41 pm

USAirALB wrote:
I would say that if CLT was not an airline hub, yet still had its strong business base and its current (growing) population, then yes, you would probably see BA doing CLT-LON. CLT is a very different city, with a very different economic climate, as compared to CMH/IND/STL.

While CLT likely has more "organic" demand to Europe than those cities, the demand also much more Germany-centric, which is why CLT supports a flight to MUC with no appreciable online/alliance feed.

Do you think that CLT has more LON demand than those cities? If so, why?

flyjoe · Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:23 pm

CV880 wrote:
With US flying Euro Routes from CLT, it made more sense for US to take over LON & FRA routes. LH stayed in the market but changed to MUC due to demand for service by German based companies

US didn't takeover the routes from either, but started them on their own as competitors. USAirALB summarized BA's market changes. LH completely pulled out of CLT after several years, with US running the route on their own. LH regained entry into the market via codeshare with US joining Star. It wasn't until a year or two later that MUC service was started based on the business ties to the regions on both ends of the flight.

It's nice to see the MUC flight has made it with US exit from Star and the only feed on the USA side being limited interlining.

Cunard · Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:31 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
deltairlines wrote:
Not to mention the current AA planes (less premium heavy, more coach heavy) are likely a better fit for CLT-LHR than BA's planes, which are significantly more premium-heavy. For a route that likely has a lot of flow traffic, best to try to fill the front cabin on the small local traffic and then rely on connections and O&D for the back.

Conversely, BA's LGW fleet is equipped within the ratios that would probably satisfy your equation, and would have the bonus of BA's LGW feed, and LGW's ability to capture lower-costing traffic, at better yields. This would also fend off any potential LGW-CLT from a competitor (namely DY). Just playing an advocate here, but could the business case exist for BA to serve LGW-CLT? Or, perhaps a return of AA (and, for that matter US) to LGW (which is less likely, as they do share costs).

There are far more long haul destinations that would be served from LGW by BA way before they even considered a resumption of LGW to CLT, same applies to DY as I can't see CLT being on their radar.

RDUDDJI · Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:26 pm

Hurricane wrote:

They used to! I don't recall exactly why they stopped service, but I assume the AA LHR service has it covered for now.

It was over a decade ago IIRC, it was a tag-on from LHR-BWI-CLT. 767 I believe.

Edit: Oops someone already posted that. I'd delete this post but apparently I cannot.

flyPIT · Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:39 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I would say that if CLT was not an airline hub, yet still had its strong business base and its current (growing) population, then yes, you would probably see BA doing CLT-LON. CLT is a very different city, with a very different economic climate, as compared to CMH/IND/STL.

While CLT likely has more "organic" demand to Europe than those cities, the demand also much more Germany-centric, which is why CLT supports a flight to MUC with no appreciable online/alliance feed.

Do you think that CLT has more LON demand than those cities? If so, why?

Its not a matter of opinion but rather fact. CLT has roughly double the O&D to London than those other cities. Granted, CLT has the benefit of existing nonstop service which stimulates the market 25-50%, but even taking that in to consideration the numbers show the demand from CLT still far outweighs the others.
https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/global-gateways-international-aviation-in-metropolitan-america/

Cubsrule · Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:57 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I would say that if CLT was not an airline hub, yet still had its strong business base and its current (growing) population, then yes, you would probably see BA doing CLT-LON. CLT is a very different city, with a very different economic climate, as compared to CMH/IND/STL.

While CLT likely has more "organic" demand to Europe than those cities, the demand also much more Germany-centric, which is why CLT supports a flight to MUC with no appreciable online/alliance feed.

Do you think that CLT has more LON demand than those cities? If so, why?

Its not a matter of opinion but rather fact. CLT has roughly double the O&D to London than those other cities. Granted, CLT has the benefit of existing nonstop service which stimulates the market 25-50%, but even taking that in to consideration the numbers show the demand from CLT still far outweighs the others.
https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/global-gateways-international-aviation-in-metropolitan-america/

What "facts" tell us how we ought to compare demand between cities where one has decades of service on a particular transatlantic city pair and the other has never had TATL service?

flyPIT · Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:04 pm

Cubsrule wrote:

What "facts" tell us how we ought to compare demand between cities where one has decades of service on a particular transatlantic city pair and the other has never had TATL service?

The number of people traveling between the city pairs in question? Not sure what your point is if it is something else other than you are suggesting market stimulation of approximately 100%.

BTW STL has had plenty of transatlantic service in the past.

Cubsrule · Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:23 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

What "facts" tell us how we ought to compare demand between cities where one has decades of service on a particular transatlantic city pair and the other has never had TATL service?

The number of people traveling between the city pairs in question? Not sure what your point is if it is something else other than you are suggesting market stimulation of approximately 100%.

BTW STL has had plenty of transatlantic service in the past.

The number of people who fly the routes doesn't tell the whole story when one city has service and other does not. We pretty well know, for instance, that plenty of people are making the ~100 mile drive from GSP to CLT for TATL flights. There probably aren't many people driving the ~100 miles from Fort Wayne to Indianapolis to fly IND-DTW-LHR. If you have some data that tell us that 25 or 50 or 100 or 200 percent is "the number," I'm glad to discuss it with you, but I do not think that those data exist.

flyPIT · Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:15 pm

Cubsrule wrote:

The number of people who fly the routes doesn't tell the whole story when one city has service and other does not. We pretty well know, for instance, that plenty of people are making the ~100 mile drive from GSP to CLT for TATL flights. There probably aren't many people driving the ~100 miles from Fort Wayne to Indianapolis to fly IND-DTW-LHR. If you have some data that tell us that 25 or 50 or 100 or 200 percent is "the number," I'm glad to discuss it with you, but I do not think that those data exist.

If IND had LON service how many people would really be drawn from FWA? The fact that Charlotte has more satellite cities just adds to the strength of CLT then. Not to mention the likes of Greensboro, Winston-Salem, Greenville, Spartanburg, Asheville, and Columbia are more vibrant and faster growing markets than Ft. Wayne or Dayton. Unlike CLT's drivable satellite cities Ft. Wayne isn't even a top 90 int'l market according to that Brookings report, and many could still drive to DTW. At the end of the day it only adds to the notion that CLT would support LON flights before IND, STL, etc.

Cubsrule · Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:54 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

The number of people who fly the routes doesn't tell the whole story when one city has service and other does not. We pretty well know, for instance, that plenty of people are making the ~100 mile drive from GSP to CLT for TATL flights. There probably aren't many people driving the ~100 miles from Fort Wayne to Indianapolis to fly IND-DTW-LHR. If you have some data that tell us that 25 or 50 or 100 or 200 percent is "the number," I'm glad to discuss it with you, but I do not think that those data exist.

If IND had LON service how many people would really be drawn from FWA? The fact that Charlotte has more satellite cities just adds to the strength of CLT then. Not to mention the likes of Greensboro, Winston-Salem, Greenville, Spartanburg, Asheville, and Columbia are more vibrant and faster growing markets than Ft. Wayne or Dayton. Unlike CLT's drivable satellite cities Ft. Wayne isn't even a top 90 int'l market according to that Brookings report, and many could still drive to DTW. At the end of the day it only adds to the notion that CLT would support LON flights before IND, STL, etc.

IND is a funny market because it probably bleeds some TATL passengers outward to CHI/CVG. I don't know of any data that quantify reliably inter-MSA transoceanic bleed, which is why the question is not as easy as you assume. Moreover, in a hypothetical non-hub world BA would be competing with other TATL service in CLT (probably one flight to Germany but maybe also DL to CDG). BA's not in PIT even though PIT appears to be a similarly-sized market to LHR as AUS and MSY, which suggests that that also makes a difference.

I'm certainly not suggesting that CLT would be clearly behind peer cities on this hypothetical BA list. I'm just not sure that any data show it miles ahead once we correct for the different service levels.

USAirALB · Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:48 am

I think there is some confusion regarding LH in CLT. LH has served CLT twice. In the early 1990s, LH served CLT with a 742 doing FRA-CLT-IAH-CLT-FRA. The service stopped in 1992 I believe. US also began CLT-FRA back in 1992.

LH returned to CLT in 2004 with service to MUC. LH hasn't flown CLT-FRA since the early 1990s.

Cubsrule wrote:

Do you think that CLT has more LON demand than those cities? If so, why?

Because there is a data that proves it. Just look at the Brookings Institute data.

AA/BA could easily fly LON-CMH/IND if they wanted to with a 75L.

Cubsrule · Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:54 am

USAirALB wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Do you think that CLT has more LON demand than those cities? If so, why?

Because there is a data that proves it. Just look at the Brookings Institute data.

AA/BA could easily fly LON-CMH/IND if they wanted to with a 75L.

And yet that 75L is not flying to CMH or IND.

Again, the Brookings data prove what we all know intuitively: nonstop service stimulates demand.

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