The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

DeltaRules · Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:25 am

ADrum23 wrote:
2. What exactly is the appeal for Columbus as a city? I don't mean this in a derogatory way, I am genuinely curious to know what is going on there and why it should get TATL service (on a full service carrier such as BA) ahead of IND, STL and even CLE.

What's the draw of Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, St. Louis, or Pittsburgh, though? I once saw somebody on here say CVG was commonly the least popular layover for AF crews when they ran CDG-CVG. Nashville is Columbus with Country Music.

Isn't one of the main goals of all these routes stimulating service TO Europe? There are lots of people in these cities wanting to go Eastbound, even if none of them are interesting to those going West other than those going home.

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:44 am

DeltaRules wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
2. What exactly is the appeal for Columbus as a city? I don't mean this in a derogatory way, I am genuinely curious to know what is going on there and why it should get TATL service (on a full service carrier such as BA) ahead of IND, STL and even CLE.

What's the draw of Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, St. Louis, or Pittsburgh, though? I once saw somebody on here say CVG was commonly the least popular layover for AF crews when they ran CDG-CVG. Nashville is Columbus with Country Music.

Isn't one of the main goals of all these routes stimulating service TO Europe? There are lots of people in these cities wanting to go Eastbound, even if none of them are interesting to those going West other than those going home.

The draw for most of those cities is large business sectors and a few tourist attractions here and there. Does CMH have a large amount of business travel to Europe? If so, which companies? And how does it stack up against CLE/STL/CVG/e.t.c
(I am genuinely trying to understand the CMH market)

I posted this in the IND thread, but it shows that CMH fares pretty well in terms of US-Europe O&D.

ADrum23 · Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:07 am

DeltaRules wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
2. What exactly is the appeal for Columbus as a city? I don't mean this in a derogatory way, I am genuinely curious to know what is going on there and why it should get TATL service (on a full service carrier such as BA) ahead of IND, STL and even CLE.

What's the draw of Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, St. Louis, or Pittsburgh, though? I once saw somebody on here say CVG was commonly the least popular layover for AF crews when they ran CDG-CVG. Nashville is Columbus with Country Music.

Isn't one of the main goals of all these routes stimulating service TO Europe? There are lots of people in these cities wanting to go Eastbound, even if none of them are interesting to those going West other than those going home.

But can CMH stimulate a TATL flight right now? They are sandwiched right between CLE and CVG. They don't even have routes to the Pacific Northwest yet. They should focus there first. Plus, as I said, it doesn't appear the European carriers are interested right now (you can tell from the tone of the article).

DeltaRules · Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:30 am

ADrum23 wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
2. What exactly is the appeal for Columbus as a city? I don't mean this in a derogatory way, I am genuinely curious to know what is going on there and why it should get TATL service (on a full service carrier such as BA) ahead of IND, STL and even CLE.

What's the draw of Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, St. Louis, or Pittsburgh, though? I once saw somebody on here say CVG was commonly the least popular layover for AF crews when they ran CDG-CVG. Nashville is Columbus with Country Music.

Isn't one of the main goals of all these routes stimulating service TO Europe? There are lots of people in these cities wanting to go Eastbound, even if none of them are interesting to those going West other than those going home.

But can CMH stimulate a TATL flight right now? They are sandwiched right between CLE and CVG. They don't even have routes to the Pacific Northwest yet. They should focus there first. Plus, as I said, it doesn't appear the European carriers are interested right now (you can tell from the tone of the article).

Again, could any of these cities stimulate a TATL flight without ponying up cash? It sounds like WW is cashing checks from CVG and STL for their service.

I don't disagree that CMH/CRAA shouldn't be trying to actively pursue new service in general, but PIT has CDG, FRA, and KEF with no SEA or PDX service. You can make the argument CVG wouldn't have SEA (though F9 would probably take a look at it) without the DL hub.

If the opportunity presents itself for an LHR flight, should CRAA say "no thank you, we're trying to get AS, DL, or F9 to add SEA first"?

Jshank83 · Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:51 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Hope is in sight, according to this article....
http://www.dispatch.com/business/201709 ... ervers-say

Interesting stuff...

"David Whitaker, chief commercial officer for the Columbus Regional Airport Authority, said Icelandair has met with him at Columbus’ request several times over the years, but Columbus hasn’t yet been in serious consideration."

"Wow! has “studied” Columbus a bit more and asked more questions but passed on the city without specifying the reasons, Whitaker said."

"Whitaker and usually someone from the local business community meet regularly with officials of key international airlines, British Airways in particular. The London-based carrier announced last month that Nashville will get one of its coveted nonstop trans-Atlantic flights, reportedly beating out St. Louis."

"Whitaker said he does not think that incentives were the deciding factor in Columbus losing out to Cleveland and Cincinnati. The Columbus airport authority has incentives available of up to $675,000 in cash for new international service, plus waived fees for two years. That’s roughly comparable to other cities’ offers."

"Lyons and Whitaker are confident that Columbus will get a nonstop flight to Europe soon.

Michael Boyd of Colorado-based consulting firm Boyd Aviation Group also told The Dispatch this summer he sees that happening in the near future."

What do you guys think this means?

The 675k cash is what stood out to me. That to me means they only have a shot at ULCC/LCC. BA you need 1.5 mil and up. Some of the new WOW announcements paid 800k. So I don't even know if 675K is enough to get anything. They need to get that number higher.

DeltaRules · Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:02 am

Midwestindy wrote:
The draw for most of those cities is large business sectors and a few tourist attractions here and there. Does CMH have a large amount of business travel to Europe? If so, which companies? And how does it stack up against CLE/STL/CVG/e.t.c
(I am genuinely trying to understand the CMH market)

I posted this in the IND thread, but it shows that CMH fares pretty well in terms of US-Europe O&D.

Finance (specifically banking and insurance) and, believe it or not, fashion are two of Columbus' biggest industries. Here's more about the area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Columbus,_Ohio

flyCMH · Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:53 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Hope is in sight, according to this article....
http://www.dispatch.com/business/201709 ... ervers-say

What do you guys think this means?

My personal opinion is that the article doesn't really mean much. It was actually a decent piece in that it gave a pretty good status on what is currently going on around the area and where CMH sits in relation to new service started in the region. I don't think there is a lot to read in to; just the airport continues to look for opportunities to gain flights to Europe and this is what's currently on offer for an airline willing to do so.

I do think Columbus and Central/Southeast Ohio is on the cusp of being able to support a nonstop flight to Europe for many of the reasons already mentioned. Other than FI and WW; EI, DY, DE, and BA/AA are all potential suitors. Whether it actually comes to fruition will depend not only what revenue guarantees and fee waivers the CRAA can offer, but the local government and business community as well.

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:17 am

Jshank83 wrote:

The 675k cash is what stood out to me. That to me means they only have a shot at ULCC/LCC. BA you need 1.5 mil and up. Some of the new WOW announcements paid 800k. So I don't even know if 675K is enough to get anything. They need to get that number higher.

Well, that is probably just from the airport I believe, they might have other incentives...

DeltaRules wrote:
Finance (specifically banking and insurance) and, believe it or not, fashion are two of Columbus' biggest industries. Here's more about the area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Columbus,_Ohio

How much are those business sectors in Columbus traveling to Europe, and how does that travel compare to CVG/CMH/IND/STL/e.t.c. For example companies like Nationwide, Huntington, Big Lots, e.t.c rarely if ever need to travel to Europe. Maybe there is some travel for L brands....but that may be where Columbus falls behind some of the other cities.

cvgComair · Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:12 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Hope is in sight, according to this article....
http://www.dispatch.com/business/201709 ... ervers-say

Interesting stuff...

"David Whitaker, chief commercial officer for the Columbus Regional Airport Authority, said Icelandair has met with him at Columbus’ request several times over the years, but Columbus hasn’t yet been in serious consideration."

"Wow! has “studied” Columbus a bit more and asked more questions but passed on the city without specifying the reasons, Whitaker said."

"Whitaker and usually someone from the local business community meet regularly with officials of key international airlines, British Airways in particular. The London-based carrier announced last month that Nashville will get one of its coveted nonstop trans-Atlantic flights, reportedly beating out St. Louis."

"Whitaker said he does not think that incentives were the deciding factor in Columbus losing out to Cleveland and Cincinnati. The Columbus airport authority has incentives available of up to $675,000 in cash for new international service, plus waived fees for two years. That’s roughly comparable to other cities’ offers."

"Lyons and Whitaker are confident that Columbus will get a nonstop flight to Europe soon.

Michael Boyd of Colorado-based consulting firm Boyd Aviation Group also told The Dispatch this summer he sees that happening in the near future."

What do you guys think this means?

The 675k cash is what stood out to me. That to me means they only have a shot at ULCC/LCC. BA you need 1.5 mil and up. Some of the new WOW announcements paid 800k. So I don't even know if 675K is enough to get anything. They need to get that number higher.

What I find interesting is that WW was only eligible for $150,000 (+ $150,000 for year 2) for its service at CVG because of the frequency. I wonder how CVG beat out other cities which are putting up much more money, or if CVG offered WW more money. So far, I do not see anything about CVG offering any incentives to WW.

Jshank83 · Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:20 pm

cvgComair wrote:

What I find interesting is that WW was only eligible for $150,000 (+ $150,000 for year 2) for its service at CVG because of the frequency. I wonder how CVG beat out other cities which are putting up much more money, or if CVG offered WW more money. So far, I do not see anything about CVG offering any incentives to WW.

Wouldn't that 300K count as an incentive? or am I missing something.

chalupas54 · Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:09 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

The 675k cash is what stood out to me. That to me means they only have a shot at ULCC/LCC. BA you need 1.5 mil and up. Some of the new WOW announcements paid 800k. So I don't even know if 675K is enough to get anything. They need to get that number higher.

Well, that is probably just from the airport I believe, they might have other incentives...

DeltaRules wrote:
Finance (specifically banking and insurance) and, believe it or not, fashion are two of Columbus' biggest industries. Here's more about the area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Columbus,_Ohio

How much are those business sectors in Columbus traveling to Europe, and how does that travel compare to CVG/CMH/IND/STL/e.t.c. For example companies like Nationwide, Huntington, Big Lots, e.t.c rarely if ever need to travel to Europe. Maybe there is some travel for L brands....but that may be where Columbus falls behind some of the other cities.

The fashion industry in Columbus is imploding. Many companies are bankrupt and are fleeing the region.

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:48 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Hope is in sight, according to this article....
http://www.dispatch.com/business/201709 ... ervers-say

Interesting stuff...

"David Whitaker, chief commercial officer for the Columbus Regional Airport Authority, said Icelandair has met with him at Columbus’ request several times over the years, but Columbus hasn’t yet been in serious consideration."

"Wow! has “studied” Columbus a bit more and asked more questions but passed on the city without specifying the reasons, Whitaker said."

"Whitaker and usually someone from the local business community meet regularly with officials of key international airlines, British Airways in particular. The London-based carrier announced last month that Nashville will get one of its coveted nonstop trans-Atlantic flights, reportedly beating out St. Louis."

"Whitaker said he does not think that incentives were the deciding factor in Columbus losing out to Cleveland and Cincinnati. The Columbus airport authority has incentives available of up to $675,000 in cash for new international service, plus waived fees for two years. That’s roughly comparable to other cities’ offers."

"Lyons and Whitaker are confident that Columbus will get a nonstop flight to Europe soon.

Michael Boyd of Colorado-based consulting firm Boyd Aviation Group also told The Dispatch this summer he sees that happening in the near future."

What do you guys think this means?

The 675k cash is what stood out to me. That to me means they only have a shot at ULCC/LCC. BA you need 1.5 mil and up. Some of the new WOW announcements paid 800k. So I don't even know if 675K is enough to get anything. They need to get that number higher.

What I find interesting is that WW was only eligible for $150,000 (+ $150,000 for year 2) for its service at CVG because of the frequency. I wonder how CVG beat out other cities which are putting up much more money, or if CVG offered WW more money. So far, I do not see anything about CVG offering any incentives to WW.

Outside incentives....

cvgComair · Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:53 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:

What I find interesting is that WW was only eligible for $150,000 (+ $150,000 for year 2) for its service at CVG because of the frequency. I wonder how CVG beat out other cities which are putting up much more money, or if CVG offered WW more money. So far, I do not see anything about CVG offering any incentives to WW.

Wouldn't that 300K count as an incentive? or am I missing something.

I was saying that it seemed low and I am surprised they went for CVG over IND/CMH when they have much higher incentives. I am curious what other incentives they were offered...

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:05 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:

What I find interesting is that WW was only eligible for $150,000 (+ $150,000 for year 2) for its service at CVG because of the frequency. I wonder how CVG beat out other cities which are putting up much more money, or if CVG offered WW more money. So far, I do not see anything about CVG offering any incentives to WW.

Wouldn't that 300K count as an incentive? or am I missing something.

I was saying that it seemed low and I am surprised they went for CVG over IND/CMH when they have much higher incentives. I am curious what other incentives they were offered...

According to the article, "A representative of REDI Cincinnati, an economic-development group, declined to comment on incentives for the Wow service."
So there may have been incentives from the business community...
Also, CMH and IND probably aren't going to use a lot of incentives to try and attract WW or FI, if they would CMH and IND would have been added a while ago.

With regards to CMH, the article said this "Wow has “studied” Columbus a bit more and asked more questions but passed on the city without specifying the reasons, Whitaker said."

“We like the region. We think there’s opportunity there. We think it’s under-served,” he said to Today in the Sky, adding that the company is "very data driven" in seeking out prospective new markets."

Therefore I think it has something to do with the data they have on demand from CMH to Europe.... IND could be added soon considering they said "We will continue to add destinations in the U.S. in the next weeks" And especially since they mentioned they like the Midwest region, if the state/business community in IND is willing to pony up the money, it will happen, but if not it is less likely.

flyCMH · Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:16 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

The fashion industry in Columbus is imploding. Many companies are bankrupt and are fleeing the region.

A bit over-dramatic, no? Traditional brick and motor retail in general is under a lot of pressure from online retailers. Locally, however, the retail/fashion sector continues to move along and has seen some bright spots through the course of the year.

The bankruptcy referred to is likely that of The Limited, which closed all its stores early this year. However, no company headquarters have departed the region. Large retailers such as L Brands, Express, and A&E, and DSW, while under pressure, continue to be headquartered in the region and are actively investing in their respective ventures. Big Lots, while not necessarily "fashion" related but certainly part of the retail sector, as done very well in recent quarters. The fashion industry as whole does continue to flourish in the region - Express just renovated a building downtown for office and studio space, CCAD continues to leverage its creative offering to tailor towards the fashion industry, and cargo shipments at LCK - spurred primarily by the local fashion/retail industry - continue to experience growth.

ADrum23 · Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:08 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
If the opportunity presents itself for an LHR flight, should CRAA say "no thank you, we're trying to get AS, DL, or F9 to add SEA first"?

Of course they should, but as I said, from the way the article is written, it doesn't sound like the European airlines are very interested at this time. If that is the case, then CMH should turn its primary attention to expanding its domestic network.

AirportRival · Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:37 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Also, CMH and IND probably aren't going to use a lot of incentives to try and attract WW or FI, if they would CMH and IND would have been added a while ago.

You talk like IND and CMH are being choosers while they're begging. I highly doubt that either airport would tell WOW or any other international LCC to take a hike if the airline really wanted to start service. Incentives are just that, an incentive. They are not a profit guarantee. CMH has proven that they will offer incentives as they did for Southwest service to OAK. I forget the amount but if I recall correctly it wasn't a small number.

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:58 pm

AirportRival wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Also, CMH and IND probably aren't going to use a lot of incentives to try and attract WW or FI, if they would CMH and IND would have been added a while ago.

You talk like IND and CMH are being choosers while they're begging. I highly doubt that either airport would tell WOW or any other international LCC to take a hike if the airline really wanted to start service. Incentives are just that, an incentive. They are not a profit guarantee. CMH has proven that they will offer incentives as they did for Southwest service to OAK. I forget the amount but if I recall correctly it wasn't a small number.

Interesting you interpreted it that way, considering that was not how I intended it to be interpreted.

What I was saying was, take IND as an example, they have a few million dollars that have been set aside for incentives for TATL service, and if they wanted to they could blow 2-3 million on getting Wow service and IND would be a much more attractive market, and WW would have probably picked IND over STL considering they are relatively equally sized TATL service.

The thing is WW, FI, e.t.c might have wanted to start service to IND and CMH but maybe the incentives either airport were offering were too low, so they decided to go elsewhere.

Although I will add that we really don't know which airports are talking with which airlines, so I don't even know if WW and IND have even spoken about the possibilty of new routes.

flyPIT · Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm

AirportRival wrote:
You talk like IND and CMH are being choosers while they're begging. I highly doubt that either airport would tell WOW or any other international LCC to take a hike if the airline really wanted to start service. Incentives are just that, an incentive. They are not a profit guarantee. CMH has proven that they will offer incentives as they did for Southwest service to OAK. I forget the amount but if I recall correctly it wasn't a small number.

Exactly. The notion that IND is passing up the likes of WOW or Condor is laughable but for some reason it seems to get repeated in various threads over the past few months.

Incentives are nice but at the end of the day the carrier will settle for the stronger market for them. Incentives tell a carrier "Hey the local community is willing to put some skin in the game. They believe they have a market and are willing to back it up with money so maybe there is something to this market". But an airline will not settle for Market A over Market B because Market A offered $100,000 more to the carrier's bottom line. They choose Market A because it is a better market for them.

That's why CVG and CLE landed WOW and IND & CMH did not (as of yet). They were viewed as stronger markets to them. Christina Cassotis (CEO of PIT) discussed the $500,000 incentive given to Condor at PIT for two years. She stated in the grand scheme of things it is pocket change to the carrier (and it is) and the deciding reason they added PIT is because they saw an under served market with great potential. One year later we will see the second year of service with a greatly expanded schedule - above and beyond what the incentive called for. That is exactly what Condor stated they were hoping for when they launched the service.

Cvgspotter15 · Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:39 pm

flyPIT wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
You talk like IND and CMH are being choosers while they're begging. I highly doubt that either airport would tell WOW or any other international LCC to take a hike if the airline really wanted to start service. Incentives are just that, an incentive. They are not a profit guarantee. CMH has proven that they will offer incentives as they did for Southwest service to OAK. I forget the amount but if I recall correctly it wasn't a small number.

Exactly. The notion that IND is passing up the likes of WOW or Condor is laughable but for some reason it seems to get repeated in various threads over the past few months.

Incentives are nice but at the end of the day the carrier will settle for the stronger market for them. Incentives tell a carrier "Hey the local community is willing to put some skin in the game. They believe they have a market and are willing to back it up with money so maybe there is something to this market". But an airline will not settle for Market A over Market B because Market A offered $100,000 more to the carrier's bottom line. They choose Market A because it is a better market for them.

That's why CVG and CLE landed WOW and IND & CMH did not (as of yet). They were viewed as stronger markets to them. Christina Cassotis (CEO of PIT) discussed the $500,000 incentive given to Condor at PIT for two years. She stated in the grand scheme of things it is pocket change to the carrier (and it is) and the deciding reason they added PIT is because they saw an under served market with great potential. One year later we will see the second year of service with a greatly expanded schedule - above and beyond what the incentive called for. That is exactly what Condor stated they were hoping for when they launched the service.

What are the new frequencies on the Condor flight at PIT?

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:39 pm

flyPIT wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
You talk like IND and CMH are being choosers while they're begging. I highly doubt that either airport would tell WOW or any other international LCC to take a hike if the airline really wanted to start service. Incentives are just that, an incentive. They are not a profit guarantee. CMH has proven that they will offer incentives as they did for Southwest service to OAK. I forget the amount but if I recall correctly it wasn't a small number.

Exactly. The notion that IND is passing up the likes of WOW or Condor is laughable but for some reason it seems to get repeated in various threads over the past few months.

Incentives are nice but at the end of the day the carrier will settle for the stronger market for them. Incentives tell a carrier "Hey the local community is willing to put some skin in the game. They believe they have a market and are willing to back it up with money so maybe there is something to this market". But an airline will not settle for Market A over Market B because Market A offered $100,000 more to the carrier's bottom line. They choose Market A because it is a better market for them.

That's why CVG and CLE landed WOW and IND & CMH did not (as of yet). They were viewed as stronger markets to them. Christina Cassotis (CEO of PIT) discussed the $500,000 incentive given to Condor at PIT for two years. She stated in the grand scheme of things it is pocket change to the carrier (and it is) and the real reason they added PIT is because they saw an under served market with great potential. One year later we will see the second year of service with a greatly expanded schedule - above and beyond what the incentive called for. That is exactly what Condor stated they were hoping for when they launched the service.

Where are you hearing IND is passing up WW, it appears you completely skipped over everything I wrote above, because you wanted to get some random point across.... the comparison was geared towards STL not CVG and CLE, and I never said CVG and CLE were less attractive markets than IND or CMH(If you look awhile back I even posted in the CLE thread that WW was likely to come to CLE this year). The article I posted even said, "Wow! has “studied” Columbus a bit more and asked more questions but passed on the city without specifying the reasons." So I am very well aware of what is going on....

I'll also add that incentives are important because allegedly STL has lost out on BA service because of incentives(or lack there of), and CLE lost out to PIT in getting WW last year because of incentives. However, big or small the gap was, it was most certainly a factor...

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
What are the new frequencies on the Condor flight at PIT?

3x weekly

flyPIT · Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:50 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
What are the new frequencies on the Condor flight at PIT?

The 2018 season will be almost two months longer and a 3rd weekly flight added during the summer.

Midwestindy wrote:
It appears you completely skipped over everything I wrote above.... and also the comparison was also more geared towards STL not CVG and CLE, and I never said CVG and CLE were less attractive markets than IND or CMH.

So you can insert "STL" where I said CVG and CLE but my point remains the same. You stated WOW probably would have picked IND over STL if IND had "blown" $2-3 million. My point based on what I wrote above is most likely not. PIT offered BA more money than MSY did but they chose MSY anyway because BA believe it to be a better market for them. Airlines do look beyond the 2-3 year period incentives are in play.

Midwestindy · Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:08 am

flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
It appears you completely skipped over everything I wrote above.... and also the comparison was also more geared towards STL not CVG and CLE, and I never said CVG and CLE were less attractive markets than IND or CMH.

So you can insert "STL" where I said CVG and CLE but my point remains the same. You stated WOW probably would have picked IND over STL if IND had "blown" $2-3 million. My point based on what I wrote above is most likely not. PIT offered BA more money than MSY did but they chose MSY anyway because BA believe it to be a better market for them. Airlines do look beyond the 2-3 year period incentives are in play.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. Of course, we don't know what is happening behind the scenes, or if WW has even spoken with IND, but for the sake of the discussion let's say STL and IND are both in the running for TATL WW service. IMO, STL and IND are both relatively equally qualified for TATL service, but a major difference between the two is that STL could offer more incentive money than IND could(depending on whether the state would chip in). Therefore it makes sense that STL was chosen over IND, however, if the IN state were to have chipped in 2-3 million(+IND incentives) to the WW incentives compared with the 1 million or so that STL ponied up, would it really be that crazy to think that IND might have gotten the flight.

Don't forget IND or CMH could even be added in the coming weeks, WW said when they announced the 4 cities that they liked the midwest region and thought it was underserved, plus they later said that they would announce more routes in the coming weeks. So anything is possible.

ADrum23 · Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:37 am

Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
It appears you completely skipped over everything I wrote above.... and also the comparison was also more geared towards STL not CVG and CLE, and I never said CVG and CLE were less attractive markets than IND or CMH.

So you can insert "STL" where I said CVG and CLE but my point remains the same. You stated WOW probably would have picked IND over STL if IND had "blown" $2-3 million. My point based on what I wrote above is most likely not. PIT offered BA more money than MSY did but they chose MSY anyway because BA believe it to be a better market for them. Airlines do look beyond the 2-3 year period incentives are in play.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. Of course, we don't know what is happening behind the scenes, or if WW has even spoken with IND, but for the sake of the discussion let's say STL and IND are both in the running for TATL WW service. IMO, STL and IND are both relatively equally qualified for TATL service, but a major difference between the two is that STL could offer more incentive money than IND could(depending on whether the state would chip in). Therefore it makes sense that STL was chosen over IND, however, if the IN state were to have chipped in 2-3 million(+IND incentives) to the WW incentives compared with the 1 million or so that STL ponied up, would it really be that crazy to think that IND might have gotten the flight.

Don't forget IND or CMH could even be added in the coming weeks, WW said when they announced the 4 cities that they liked the midwest region and thought it was underserved, plus they later said that they would announce more routes in the coming weeks. So anything is possible.

Is it just me, or does $1-3 million in incentives seems like a lot for a LCC like WW? I could see that much being given for a full service airline to one of the big four Western Europe airports, but for WW service to Iceland (which is only borderline TATL service anyway).

Despite them talking about the Midwest, I think the next round of new destinations will be in the South/Southeastern airports (such as ATL, RDU, CLT, BNA and maybe even MSY and DFW, though those two may be out of the range of their aircraft).

stl07 · Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:02 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:

So you can insert "STL" where I said CVG and CLE but my point remains the same. You stated WOW probably would have picked IND over STL if IND had "blown" $2-3 million. My point based on what I wrote above is most likely not. PIT offered BA more money than MSY did but they chose MSY anyway because BA believe it to be a better market for them. Airlines do look beyond the 2-3 year period incentives are in play.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. Of course, we don't know what is happening behind the scenes, or if WW has even spoken with IND, but for the sake of the discussion let's say STL and IND are both in the running for TATL WW service. IMO, STL and IND are both relatively equally qualified for TATL service, but a major difference between the two is that STL could offer more incentive money than IND could(depending on whether the state would chip in). Therefore it makes sense that STL was chosen over IND, however, if the IN state were to have chipped in 2-3 million(+IND incentives) to the WW incentives compared with the 1 million or so that STL ponied up, would it really be that crazy to think that IND might have gotten the flight.

Don't forget IND or CMH could even be added in the coming weeks, WW said when they announced the 4 cities that they liked the midwest region and thought it was underserved, plus they later said that they would announce more routes in the coming weeks. So anything is possible.

Is it just me, or does $1-3 million in incentives seems like a lot for a LCC like WW? I could see that much being given for a full service airline to one of the big four Western Europe airports, but for WW service to Iceland (which is only borderline TATL service anyway).

Despite them talking about the Midwest, I think the next round of new destinations will be in the South/Southeastern airports (such as ATL, RDU, CLT, BNA and maybe even MSY and DFW, though those two may be out of the range of their aircraft).

In STL the incentives were up to 800,000 based on service. Indy could beat that 3 times over. But then again, STL also has the tourism aspect plus super large catchment area and higher population. Remeber this is WOW, and tourism is a major factor because the focus is not for business travelers. If this was BA maybe the discussion tone would be different. Even though the number of Europe passengers might be close, with these cheaper fares, more demand can be stimulated with a higher population base, which is on top of the extra tourists coming in.

Midwestindy · Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:17 am

stl07 wrote:
In STL the incentives were up to 800,000 based on service. Indy could beat that 3 times over. But then again, STL also has the tourism aspect plus super large catchment area and higher population. Remeber this is WOW, and tourism is a major factor because the focus is not for business travelers. If this was BA maybe the discussion tone would be different. Even though the number of Europe passengers might be close, with these cheaper fares, more demand can be stimulated with a higher population base, which is on top of the extra tourists coming in.

Does STL have a lot of European tourism? or do you mean US-Europe tourism?

AirportRival · Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:30 pm

CVG will be receiving a few extra Allegiant planes the next few days as Florida is evacuated. Not sure if any other airlines will be staging some here as well.

cvgComair · Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:37 pm

DL is adding a year round IND-CDG on the 767 starting in May. Interesting add with CVG so close!

stl07 · Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:52 pm

Haha know we know why wow and IND wernt going together.

Midwestindy · Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:53 pm

flyPIT wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
You talk like IND and CMH are being choosers while they're begging. I highly doubt that either airport would tell WOW or any other international LCC to take a hike if the airline really wanted to start service. Incentives are just that, an incentive. They are not a profit guarantee. CMH has proven that they will offer incentives as they did for Southwest service to OAK. I forget the amount but if I recall correctly it wasn't a small number.

Exactly. The notion that IND is passing up the likes of WOW or Condor is laughable but for some reason it seems to get repeated in various threads over the past few months.

Incentives are nice but at the end of the day the carrier will settle for the stronger market for them. Incentives tell a carrier "Hey the local community is willing to put some skin in the game. They believe they have a market and are willing to back it up with money so maybe there is something to this market". But an airline will not settle for Market A over Market B because Market A offered $100,000 more to the carrier's bottom line. They choose Market A because it is a better market for them.

That's why CVG and CLE landed WOW and IND & CMH did not (as of yet). They were viewed as stronger markets to them. Christina Cassotis (CEO of PIT) discussed the $500,000 incentive given to Condor at PIT for two years. She stated in the grand scheme of things it is pocket change to the carrier (and it is) and the deciding reason they added PIT is because they saw an under served market with great potential. One year later we will see the second year of service with a greatly expanded schedule - above and beyond what the incentive called for. That is exactly what Condor stated they were hoping for when they launched the service.

Ironic...

DeltaRules · Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:56 pm

There's a 767 parking line at C46 right in front of the new security area connected to FIS. You could even offer connections if you REALLY wanted to. C'mon DL...I'm just sayin'...

papatango · Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:58 pm

Maybe Delta will add CMH to AMS!!!!!!

cvgComair · Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:00 pm

Interesting that the flights do not go on sale until the 23rd, I am wondering if IND airport wanted to get the announcement out since WW passed over IND. The 23rd is a Saturday, when DL usually loads its schedule/announces new routes, I wonder if they have other new routes planned?

flyPIT · Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:46 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
You talk like IND and CMH are being choosers while they're begging. I highly doubt that either airport would tell WOW or any other international LCC to take a hike if the airline really wanted to start service. Incentives are just that, an incentive. They are not a profit guarantee. CMH has proven that they will offer incentives as they did for Southwest service to OAK. I forget the amount but if I recall correctly it wasn't a small number.

Exactly. The notion that IND is passing up the likes of WOW or Condor is laughable but for some reason it seems to get repeated in various threads over the past few months.

Incentives are nice but at the end of the day the carrier will settle for the stronger market for them. Incentives tell a carrier "Hey the local community is willing to put some skin in the game. They believe they have a market and are willing to back it up with money so maybe there is something to this market". But an airline will not settle for Market A over Market B because Market A offered $100,000 more to the carrier's bottom line. They choose Market A because it is a better market for them.

That's why CVG and CLE landed WOW and IND & CMH did not (as of yet). They were viewed as stronger markets to them. Christina Cassotis (CEO of PIT) discussed the $500,000 incentive given to Condor at PIT for two years. She stated in the grand scheme of things it is pocket change to the carrier (and it is) and the deciding reason they added PIT is because they saw an under served market with great potential. One year later we will see the second year of service with a greatly expanded schedule - above and beyond what the incentive called for. That is exactly what Condor stated they were hoping for when they launched the service.

Ironic...

What is ironic?

Cvgspotter15 · Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:36 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Interesting that the flights do not go on sale until the 23rd, I am wondering if IND airport wanted to get the announcement out since WW passed over IND. The 23rd is a Saturday, when DL usually loads its schedule/announces new routes, I wonder if they have other new routes planned?

Obviously unlikely, but if that "rumored" Delta London flight from CVG is gonna happen for 2018 I would assume it would get announced now. As well as possibly some other routes. Remember the tweet about the focus cities.

cvgComair · Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:51 am

I know its an extreme long shot, but I wonder if the CVG hub could help Cincinnati's chance at landing Amazon's second headquarters go from unlikely to somewhat possible. Amazon just announced another fulfillment center to be put in Cincinnati, so they are making a lot of big investments here.

According to Amazon, Cincinnati is ranked about in the middle, comparable to cities like Charlotte and Austin. It would certainly be a big gain for the local economy, hopefully Cincinnati and NKY can come together and put up some big incentives!

Midwestindy · Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:30 am

cvgComair wrote:
I know its an extreme long shot, but I wonder if the CVG hub could help Cincinnati's chance at landing Amazon's second headquarters go from unlikely to somewhat possible. Amazon just announced another fulfillment center to be put in Cincinnati, so they are making a lot of big investments here.

According to Amazon, Cincinnati is ranked about in the middle, comparable to cities like Charlotte and Austin. It would certainly be a big gain for the local economy, hopefully Cincinnati and NKY can come together and put up some big incentives!

What do you mean by according to Amazon, what ranking are you referring to, do you mean in terms of employees or something else....

Anyway, if a mid-sized city ends up getting Amazon, it will drastically change the passenger numbers in and out of the airport.

cvgComair · Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:36 am

Midwestindy wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I know its an extreme long shot, but I wonder if the CVG hub could help Cincinnati's chance at landing Amazon's second headquarters go from unlikely to somewhat possible. Amazon just announced another fulfillment center to be put in Cincinnati, so they are making a lot of big investments here.

According to Amazon, Cincinnati is ranked about in the middle, comparable to cities like Charlotte and Austin. It would certainly be a big gain for the local economy, hopefully Cincinnati and NKY can come together and put up some big incentives!

What do you mean by according to Amazon, what ranking are you referring to, do you mean in terms of employees or something else....

Anyway, if a mid-sized city ends up getting Amazon, it will drastically change the passenger numbers in and out of the airport.

Amazon put a list of criteria and CNBC put together a ranking list based on the criteria: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/07/here-ar ... rters.html

Midwestindy · Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:47 am

cvgComair wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I know its an extreme long shot, but I wonder if the CVG hub could help Cincinnati's chance at landing Amazon's second headquarters go from unlikely to somewhat possible. Amazon just announced another fulfillment center to be put in Cincinnati, so they are making a lot of big investments here.

According to Amazon, Cincinnati is ranked about in the middle, comparable to cities like Charlotte and Austin. It would certainly be a big gain for the local economy, hopefully Cincinnati and NKY can come together and put up some big incentives!

What do you mean by according to Amazon, what ranking are you referring to, do you mean in terms of employees or something else....

Anyway, if a mid-sized city ends up getting Amazon, it will drastically change the passenger numbers in and out of the airport.

Amazon put a list of criteria and CNBC put together a ranking list based on the criteria: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/07/here-ar ... rters.html

Oh yeah, I saw that however not saying CVG isn't viable, but that list isn't accurate. It includes CMH/RIC/JAX/GRR/e.t.c and a few others that don't have daily nonstops to SEA and SFO, which was a criteria specified in the Amazon RFP. Also, I didn't look that closely and DTW was not included and it is one of the likely front runners.

iFlyDTW · Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:15 am

Midwestindy wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

What do you mean by according to Amazon, what ranking are you referring to, do you mean in terms of employees or something else....

Anyway, if a mid-sized city ends up getting Amazon, it will drastically change the passenger numbers in and out of the airport.

Amazon put a list of criteria and CNBC put together a ranking list based on the criteria: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/07/here-ar ... rters.html

Oh yeah, I saw that however not saying CVG isn't viable, but that list isn't accurate. It includes CMH/RIC/JAX/GRR/e.t.c and a few others that don't have daily nonstops to SEA and SFO, which was a criteria specified in the Amazon RFP. Also, I didn't look that closely and DTW was not included and it is one of the likely front runners.

Here is the link, theres a lot of support that is putting Detroit ahead of most cities. http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20 ... adquarters

flyPIT · Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:30 am

cvgComair wrote:
I know its an extreme long shot, but I wonder if the CVG hub could help Cincinnati's chance at landing Amazon's second headquarters go from unlikely to somewhat possible. Amazon just announced another fulfillment center to be put in Cincinnati, so they are making a lot of big investments here.

I doubt the Prime Air hub will have any factor in this. Take UPS for example, their air hub and single largest concentration of employees is in SDF yet the company is headquartered in ATL. Atlanta is a better location for their corporate headquarters... and they are a logistics/transportation company unlike Amazon whom has their hands in many different things.

Landing the Prime Air hub at CVG is a huge boost by itself that many cities would die for.

cvgComair wrote:
Amazon put a list of criteria and CNBC put together a ranking list based on the criteria: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/07/here-ar ... rters.html

That's a pretty poorly researched article IMHO. For example they list "job growth" as a key criteria when in fact what Amazon stated is:

"Labor Force
–
The Project includes significant employment requirements at the threshold
compensation levels described herein and with corresponding educational attainment of the
available workforce. The Project must be sufficiently close to a significant population center, such
that it can fill the 50,000 estimated jobs that will be required over multiple years. A highly educated
labor pool is critical and a strong university system is required."
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Anything/test/images/usa/RFP_3._V516043504_.pdf

That's quite different than measuring high job growth and thereby assuming boom towns have a leg up in this category. To be able to add 50,000 employees I would think you would need to be in a city that does not have an extremely low unemployment rate and multiple employers fighting for the same employees.

Furthermore that listing does not even include some serious contenders such as Pittsburgh and Indianapolis.

iFlyDTW wrote:
Here is the link, theres a lot of support that is putting Detroit ahead of most cities. http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20 ... adquarters

"The" link? This is a huge story and there are hundreds of links from all over North America, many quoting their local officials as putting their city ahead of most others.

This will be a story to follow over the next year, and no doubt will come up again and again in the endless "My city is better than your city" threads.

Jshank83 · Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:39 am

flyPIT wrote:
This will be a story to follow over the next year, and no doubt will come up again and again the the endless "My city is better than your city" threads.

Which hopefully will stay off a.net seeing it isn't an aviation issue.

flyPIT · Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:44 am

Jshank83 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
This will be a story to follow over the next year, and no doubt will come up again and again in the endless "My city is better than your city" threads.

Which hopefully will stay off a.net seeing it isn't an aviation issue.

Well to be fair there certainly are aviation implications with such a massive co-headquarters, specifically new or improved service to SEA and SFO for the chosen city.

flyguy89 · Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:22 am

cvgComair wrote:
I know its an extreme long shot, but I wonder if the CVG hub could help Cincinnati's chance at landing Amazon's second headquarters go from unlikely to somewhat possible. Amazon just announced another fulfillment center to be put in Cincinnati, so they are making a lot of big investments here.

According to Amazon, Cincinnati is ranked about in the middle, comparable to cities like Charlotte and Austin. It would certainly be a big gain for the local economy, hopefully Cincinnati and NKY can come together and put up some big incentives!

It would be awesome for sure, but I doubt it. Most likely they'll go with some place like Texas, Atlanta or Florida.

CMHMarc787 · Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:01 pm

Columbus has a lot of Amazon data center and distribution operations in place already and, even though there are other locations for these around the country, Columbus has those operations in areas where there is significant available real estate surrounding them.

Of course, this would suddenly give CMH a major bump in securing services to those destinations where they've been lacking (west coast, TATL, etc.) - something that would make a lot of us in the Central Ohio area quite happy.

Naturally, this simply my 2 cents...

Midwestindy · Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:10 pm

CMHMarc787 wrote:
Columbus has a lot of Amazon data center and distribution operations in place already and, even though there are other locations for these around the country, Columbus has those operations in areas where there is significant available real estate surrounding them.

Of course, this would suddenly give CMH a major bump in securing services to those destinations where they've been lacking (west coast, TATL, etc.) - something that would make a lot of us in the Central Ohio area quite happy.

Naturally, this simply my 2 cents...

No flights to SEA and only seasonal to bay area, Daily flights to both were listed as significant variables to determining HQ2 locations.

boscmh · Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:39 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
No flights to SEA and only seasonal to bay area, Daily flights to both were listed as significant variables to determining HQ2 locations.

Honestly it's pretty irrelevant what is in place right now. That service would quickly appear in almost any city selected (CMH, PIT, etc).

Midwestindy · Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:08 pm

boscmh wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
No flights to SEA and only seasonal to bay area, Daily flights to both were listed as significant variables to determining HQ2 locations.

Honestly it's pretty irrelevant what is in place right now. That service would quickly appear in almost any city selected (CMH, PIT, etc).

I agree, but then again that is what they said in the RFP so...

Also Amazon isn't stupid, so they probably included that criteria for a reason.

Cvgspotter15 · Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:36 pm

There's a ton of Allegiant planes and Maddogs at CVG right now, a lot from Orlando. (There's like 19 on the hardstands)

flyCMH · Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:23 am

A little bit of good news from over in CMH: quite a few extra sections for the Buckeyes/Sooners match-up at Ohio Stadium:

Oklahoma City (OKC) Southwest Airlines 8061
11:46 AM
Sep 8

B737

Oklahoma City (OKC) United Airlines 2535
12:41 PM
Sep 8

B739

Oklahoma City (OKC) Southwest Airlines 8086
12:49 PM
Sep 8

B737

Oklahoma City (OKC) Delta Airlines 8791
12:51 PM
Sep 8

MD88

Oklahoma City (OKC) ExpressJet Airlines 2612
01:13 PM
Sep 8

E45X

Oklahoma City (OKC) United Airlines 2536
01:31 PM
Sep 8

B739

Oklahoma City (OKC) United Airlines 2507
05:51 PM
Sep 8

B739

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net