The Rest Of Ohio - 2017

cvgComair · Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:30 am

ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Amazon will be adding service from CVG to PVD, nice to see a new destination, hopefully they continue to roll out new cities!

Don't they have plans to build a massive hub operation at CVG eventually?

Yep, they are waiting on aircraft deliveries, I believe about a dozen aircraft are coming this fall, so there should be a bunch of new routes.

cvgComair · Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:33 am

ADrum23 wrote:
I'll reask this question since it got lost in the shuffle before.

What are the chances Alaska and/or JetBlue come into CVG and launch service? Alaska could launch CVG-SEA while JetBlue could launch CVG-BOS or CVG-FLL

I think both would do quite well in CVG, but I would assume they are hesitant because of DL. Adding LCC service to PVD and SEA probably pushed CVG back a little farther for AS/B6 service, but I think at least one of them will come within the next year or two.

Cvgspotter15 · Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:48 am

ADrum23 wrote:
I'll reask this question since it got lost in the shuffle before.

What are the chances Alaska and/or JetBlue come into CVG and launch service? Alaska could launch CVG-SEA while JetBlue could launch CVG-BOS or CVG-FLL

Um I can't really answer that question. Possibly JetBlue out of the 2 in the next few years. They were planned to announce in 2015, but pulled out. Delta would probably be the most likely candidate for a PHX flight, or Frontier. And frontier added service to SEA and Delta has seasonal service as well so I don't think there is a big need for Alaska to come in to service at CVG, but apparently in 2018 there will be 30 new markets (routes not cities I believe) so who knows.

cvgComair · Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:19 am

I found this pic, taken last week of the DHL/Amazon hub and it looks like parking is at full capacity! I wonder what the plan is as Amazon and DHL continue to add more flights this fall. It seems like Amazon needs to get to speed with their own facility :-)

.

jplatts · Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:06 am

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
Delta would probably be the most likely candidate for a PHX flight, or Frontier.

Southwest could also add nonstop service from CVG to PHX since Southwest has a focus city at PHX, since PHX is one of the largest Southwest Airlines stations, since Delta doesn't have a hub at PHX, since most Greater Phoenix-based travelers are loyal to Southwest or American, since Southwest has a frequent flyer base at PHX that would prefer to fly Southwest over other airlines, and since Southwest has nonstop service out of PHX to destinations that AA and DL do not serve nonstop from PHX.

American could also add nonstop service from CVG to PHX since American Airlines has a hub at PHX and since there are some travelers in Greater Phoenix that would prefer to fly on American over other airlines.

Southwest and American would be able to connect passengers traveling from CVG to California destinations through PHX if they add nonstop service from CVG to PHX, whereas Delta cannot connect passengers traveling from CVG to non-Delta hub destinations through PHX if it adds CVG-PHX nonstop service.

Midwestindy · Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:55 am

jplatts wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
Delta would probably be the most likely candidate for a PHX flight, or Frontier.

Southwest could also add nonstop service from CVG to PHX since Southwest has a focus city at PHX, since PHX is one of the largest Southwest Airlines stations, since Delta doesn't have a hub at PHX, since most Greater Phoenix-based travelers are loyal to Southwest or American, since Southwest has a frequent flyer base at PHX that would prefer to fly Southwest over other airlines, and since Southwest has nonstop service out of PHX to destinations that AA and DL do not serve nonstop from PHX.

American could also add nonstop service from CVG to PHX since American Airlines has a hub at PHX and since there are some travelers in Greater Phoenix that would prefer to fly on American over other airlines.

Southwest and American would be able to connect passengers traveling from CVG to California destinations through PHX if they add nonstop service from CVG to PHX, whereas Delta cannot connect passengers traveling from CVG to non-Delta hub destinations through PHX if it adds CVG-PHX nonstop service.

Don't forget Coldstone Creamery and Leslie's Swimming Pool Supplies would mean there would be tons of corporate travel on this route as well...

Still waiting on the Q1 '17 domestic airfare report, but as it stands now
Q1 '16- CVG-PHX-- 128 PDEW Average Fare- $263.7773488
Q2 '16- CVG-PHX-- 172 PDEW Average Fare- $183.4662098
Q3 '16- CVG-PHX-- 159 PDEW Average Fare- $175.1961381
Q4 '16- CVG-PHX-- 194 PDEW Average Fare- $167.8907257

G4 is running 2-3 weekly CVG-AZA, and I think F9 runs CVG-PHX at least 4x weekly, so it isn't like there is an abundance of untapped potential with this city pairing. Although I am not saying DL/AA/WN couldn't make CVG-PHX work, I just don't know what DL has planned for CVG moving forward.

Btw, any word on any F9 announcements soon?

Jshank83 · Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:22 am

Do any of you guys have an update on how WN is doing? I know the loads had been rough. I just wondered if they were getting any better.

cvgComair · Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:38 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Do any of you guys have an update on how WN is doing? I know the loads had been rough. I just wondered if they were getting any better.

I don’t have numbers, but WN has been sending larger 738’s recently, which seems like a sign loads are improving.

Cvgspotter15 · Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:44 am

jplatts wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
Delta would probably be the most likely candidate for a PHX flight, or Frontier.

Southwest could also add nonstop service from CVG to PHX since Southwest has a focus city at PHX, since PHX is one of the largest Southwest Airlines stations, since Delta doesn't have a hub at PHX, since most Greater Phoenix-based travelers are loyal to Southwest or American, since Southwest has a frequent flyer base at PHX that would prefer to fly Southwest over other airlines, and since Southwest has nonstop service out of PHX to destinations that AA and DL do not serve nonstop from PHX.

American could also add nonstop service from CVG to PHX since American Airlines has a hub at PHX and since there are some travelers in Greater Phoenix that would prefer to fly on American over other airlines.

Southwest and American would be able to connect passengers traveling from CVG to California destinations through PHX if they add nonstop service from CVG to PHX, whereas Delta cannot connect passengers traveling from CVG to non-Delta hub destinations through PHX if it adds CVG-PHX nonstop service.

Sorry I meant PDX on my most recent post

AirportRival · Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:53 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Still waiting on the Q1 '17 domestic airfare report,

I emailed them the other day to find out when it would be coming out. Here is the reply I got - "When we ran the reports a few weeks ago, we found that there were glaring data inaccuracies with two of the passenger national carriers, and we let the Bureau of Transportation Statistics here at DOT know. They are working with the carriers to resolve the issues, and I’m hoping that we get the green light this week to run the report."

So hopefully the report will be out soon.

flyguy89 · Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:22 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
Delta would probably be the most likely candidate for a PHX flight, or Frontier.

Southwest could also add nonstop service from CVG to PHX since Southwest has a focus city at PHX, since PHX is one of the largest Southwest Airlines stations, since Delta doesn't have a hub at PHX, since most Greater Phoenix-based travelers are loyal to Southwest or American, since Southwest has a frequent flyer base at PHX that would prefer to fly Southwest over other airlines, and since Southwest has nonstop service out of PHX to destinations that AA and DL do not serve nonstop from PHX.

American could also add nonstop service from CVG to PHX since American Airlines has a hub at PHX and since there are some travelers in Greater Phoenix that would prefer to fly on American over other airlines.

Southwest and American would be able to connect passengers traveling from CVG to California destinations through PHX if they add nonstop service from CVG to PHX, whereas Delta cannot connect passengers traveling from CVG to non-Delta hub destinations through PHX if it adds CVG-PHX nonstop service.

Sorry I meant PDX on my most recent post

Allow me to rephrase then:
Alaska could add nonstop service from CVG to PDX since PDX is a focus city for Alaska. Alaska has a lot of frequent fliers because they have a focus city at PDX. Delta doesn't have a hub at PDX and most Portland-based travelers are loyal to Alaska and would prefer Alaska over Delta because they have a focus city at PDX. Alaska would also be able to connect travelers to the Pacific Northwest since they have a focus city at PDX and serve nonstop destinations that Delta and other airlines do not. Will Alaska add nonstop service from CVG to PDX?

cvgComair · Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:40 pm

2050 Master Plan is starting to roll out, see the site page here: https://www.airportprojects.net/cvg-mpu/

Here is the schedule:
- Forecast of Demand will come out in 4th Quarter 2017
- Prepare Aviation Activity Forecasts in Fall 2017
- Inventory Existing Conditions in Fall/Winter 2017
- Develop Facility Requirements/Needs in Winter 2018
- Develop Passenger Terminal Plan in Winter 2018
- Develop Airfield and Roadway/Parking Plans in Spring 2018
- Prepare Financial Feasibility Plan in Summer 2018
- Create Implementation Plan in Summer 2018
- Evaluate Environmental Implications in Summer 2018
- Master Plan Reports in Fall 2018

ADrum23 · Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:43 pm

cvgComair wrote:
2050 Master Plan is starting to roll out, see the site page here: https://www.airportprojects.net/cvg-mpu/

Here is the schedule:
- Forecast of Demand will come out in 4th Quarter 2017
- Prepare Aviation Activity Forecasts in Fall 2017
- Inventory Existing Conditions in Fall/Winter 2017
- Develop Facility Requirements/Needs in Winter 2018
- Develop Passenger Terminal Plan in Winter 2018
- Develop Airfield and Roadway/Parking Plans in Spring 2018
- Prepare Financial Feasibility Plan in Summer 2018
- Create Implementation Plan in Summer 2018
- Evaluate Environmental Implications in Summer 2018
- Master Plan Reports in Fall 2018

The most interesting part of this will be, IMO, what they are planning for the passenger terminals. It seems the future of CVG will be primarily cargo, so I don't foresee a dramatic rise in passenger traffic, especially since CVG is becoming more of an O&D airport as opposed to a connecting hub. As such, I would think a plan for demolishing both Concourses and building one, new, unified (and expandable) terminal would be the best option.

AirportRival · Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:11 am

So everything thing that I've read online about the Vantiv and Worldpay merger is that the corporate headquarters will stay in Cincinnati and the international headquarters will be in London. The company name will change to Worldpay. I bring this up because I would imagine that the demand for corporate travel to London from CVG will be increasing a fair amount. I also imagine that the new combined company will pretty easily make the fortune 500 list and add to the impressive list that Cincinnati already has.

Edit: After looking at the numbers, even the combined company may not make the Fortune 500 list.

DeltaRules · Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:52 am

In all the talk about CMH and London service, it didn't dawn on me until just now the partnership between DL and VS. Again, I still would figure AA would be the frontrunner, but with the focus city expansion talk...

Midwestindy · Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:35 pm

The T100 data has been updated through June, and international through March
CVG numbers are looking healthier
MEM-CVG 30.4%
XNA-CVG 39.7%
BNA-CVG 48.99%
EWR-CVG 66.12%
BWI-CVG 74.3%
BDL-CVG 65.5%
MCI-CVG 72.1%
STL-CVG 69.11%
MKE-CVG 67.9%
CDG-CVG 69.5%

WN total LF out of CVG for June-67.1%
MDW-CVG 59.5%
BWI-CVG 79.6%

flymco753 · Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:35 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
XNA-CVG 39.7%

How long do you think it'll be for DL to shift this route to DTW or end it completely?

cvgComair · Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:53 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
XNA-CVG 39.7%
How long do you think it'll be for DL to shift this route to DTW or end it completely?

I think P&G has some sort of agreement for this route, it was actually recently upguaged to a CRJ-700.

Midwestindy · Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:05 pm

cvgComair wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
XNA-CVG 39.7%
How long do you think it'll be for DL to shift this route to DTW or end it completely?

I think P&G has some sort of agreement for this route, it was actually recently upguaged to a CRJ-700.

Do you have a source for this, otherwise I just don't see how this route is sustainable

DEPARTURES_SCHEDULED DEPARTURES_PERFORMED SEATS PASSENGERS CARRIER_NAME ORIGIN DEST AIRCRAFT_TYPE MONTH

9 9 450 140 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 6
17 17 1173 472 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 631 6
23 23 1150 607 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 5
23 22 1100 460 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 4
23 23 1150 494 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 3
20 20 1000 412 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 2
17 17 850 296 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 1

cvgComair · Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:15 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
How long do you think it'll be for DL to shift this route to DTW or end it completely?

I think P&G has some sort of agreement for this route, it was actually recently upguaged to a CRJ-700.

Do you have a source for this, otherwise I just don't see how this route is sustainable

DEPARTURES_SCHEDULED DEPARTURES_PERFORMED SEATS PASSENGERS CARRIER_NAME ORIGIN DEST AIRCRAFT_TYPE MONTH

9 9 450 140 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 6
17 17 1173 472 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 631 6
23 23 1150 607 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 5
23 22 1100 460 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 4
23 23 1150 494 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 3
20 20 1000 412 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 2
17 17 850 296 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 1

I don't have a source (this information is not public), but it was discussed on here a while ago that it was part of P&G's agreement with Delta. It has been 1x/day for years to shuttle P&G employees between Cincinnati and Bentonville. Loads have not been great for years and my guess is that it is not a profitable route, but P&G probably pays for the difference. There was a time when P&G paid for charter flights between CVG-BRU, they have done some crazy things for nonstop flights, so I would not be surprised if they are paying Delta to keep the route.

When I was at P&G's headquarters (June 2015), I was talking with one of their executives about Delta and air service. They are pretty annoyed with Delta over their hub cuts and are pretty much constantly putting proposals for more service. (For instance, I believe the DL CVG-LHR rumors emerged from word that P&G was lobbying DL for the route) It would not surprise me if Delta is obligated to serve CVG-XNA as part of their air service deal with P&G.

ADrum23 · Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:50 pm

cvgComair wrote:
I don't have a source (this information is not public), but it was discussed on here a while ago that it was part of P&G's agreement with Delta. It has been 1x/day for years to shuttle P&G employees between Cincinnati and Bentonville. Loads have not been great for years and my guess is that it is not a profitable route, but P&G probably pays for the difference. There was a time when P&G paid for charter flights between CVG-BRU, they have done some crazy things for nonstop flights, so I would not be surprised if they are paying Delta to keep the route.

When I was at P&G's headquarters (June 2015), I was talking with one of their executives about Delta and air service. They are pretty annoyed with Delta over their hub cuts and are pretty much constantly putting proposals for more service. (For instance, I believe the DL CVG-LHR rumors emerged from word that P&G was lobbying DL for the route) It would not surprise me if Delta is obligated to serve CVG-XNA as part of their air service deal with P&G.

If that is the case, then why is P&G bothering to stay in Cincinnati if they don't like the air service? They could always move elsewhere (to places such as CLT, DFW, ATL, etc) where they have more service (and a better business climate). You think they'd move especially considering they seem to be subsidizing a lot of the remaining routes.

cvgComair · Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:11 am

ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I don't have a source (this information is not public), but it was discussed on here a while ago that it was part of P&G's agreement with Delta. It has been 1x/day for years to shuttle P&G employees between Cincinnati and Bentonville. Loads have not been great for years and my guess is that it is not a profitable route, but P&G probably pays for the difference. There was a time when P&G paid for charter flights between CVG-BRU, they have done some crazy things for nonstop flights, so I would not be surprised if they are paying Delta to keep the route.

When I was at P&G's headquarters (June 2015), I was talking with one of their executives about Delta and air service. They are pretty annoyed with Delta over their hub cuts and are pretty much constantly putting proposals for more service. (For instance, I believe the DL CVG-LHR rumors emerged from word that P&G was lobbying DL for the route) It would not surprise me if Delta is obligated to serve CVG-XNA as part of their air service deal with P&G.

If that is the case, then why is P&G bothering to stay in Cincinnati if they don't like the air service? They could always move elsewhere (to places such as CLT, DFW, ATL, etc) where they have more service (and a better business climate). You think they'd move especially considering they seem to be subsidizing a lot of the remaining routes.

Because they have deep ties to the city, the companies like Chiquita and Toyota that did not have such ties have already left. It does not hurt them to try to get more flights on DL and I think paying extra for flights is cheaper than alternatives. Adjusted for inflation, companies in Cincinnati paid almost $700 average ticket prices during the DL hub days, certainly they are paying less today. Plus you don’t move a company just because of air service, it’s not as good as it once was, but Cincinnati’s air service is not that bad, P&G has a lot more nonstop options than many surrounding cities have. Would they prefer more flights, of course, but it is far from a deal breaker. Besides, Cincinnati already has a good business climate, there are many more Fortune 500/1000 companies than surrounding cities.

ADrum23 · Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:51 am

cvgComair wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I don't have a source (this information is not public), but it was discussed on here a while ago that it was part of P&G's agreement with Delta. It has been 1x/day for years to shuttle P&G employees between Cincinnati and Bentonville. Loads have not been great for years and my guess is that it is not a profitable route, but P&G probably pays for the difference. There was a time when P&G paid for charter flights between CVG-BRU, they have done some crazy things for nonstop flights, so I would not be surprised if they are paying Delta to keep the route.

When I was at P&G's headquarters (June 2015), I was talking with one of their executives about Delta and air service. They are pretty annoyed with Delta over their hub cuts and are pretty much constantly putting proposals for more service. (For instance, I believe the DL CVG-LHR rumors emerged from word that P&G was lobbying DL for the route) It would not surprise me if Delta is obligated to serve CVG-XNA as part of their air service deal with P&G.

If that is the case, then why is P&G bothering to stay in Cincinnati if they don't like the air service? They could always move elsewhere (to places such as CLT, DFW, ATL, etc) where they have more service (and a better business climate). You think they'd move especially considering they seem to be subsidizing a lot of the remaining routes.

Because they have deep ties to the city, the companies like Chiquita and Toyota that did not have such ties have already left. It does not hurt them to try to get more flights on DL and I think paying extra for flights is cheaper than alternatives. Adjusted for inflation, companies in Cincinnati paid almost $700 average ticket prices during the DL hub days, certainly they are paying less today. Plus you don’t move a company just because of air service, it’s not as good as it once was, but Cincinnati’s air service is not that bad, P&G has a lot more nonstop options than many surrounding cities have. Would they prefer more flights, of course, but it is far from a deal breaker. Besides, Cincinnati already has a good business climate, there are many more Fortune 500/1000 companies than surrounding cities.

That wasn't a knock against Cincinnati, I was just wondering why P&G was sticking around if they don't like the air service.

Also, do you think they could convince DL to shift the CVG-CDG flight to LHR if they'd rather have London service? DL is ending PHL-LHR in March, so a slot will be opening up. If that doesn't work, then I'd work on recruiting either BA or DY to the airport.

cvgComair · Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:19 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Also, do you think they could convince DL to shift the CVG-CDG flight to LHR if they'd rather have London service? DL is ending PHL-LHR in March, so a slot will be opening up. If that doesn't work, then I'd work on recruiting either BA or DY to the airport.

While I am sure they would rather have LHR service (CDG is the #3 destination based on demand behind LON and FRA), I am not so sure DL would go for LHR instead of CDG, though I suppose its possible, PDX has LHR/AMS and no CDG. I hope CVG is focused on getting DY to LGW and DE to FRA, that seems like the most likely scenario IMO.

NoTime · Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:52 am

Regarding all of the recent news about Columbus being a "finalist" in the hyper-loop competition (or whatever it's considered). I read something in local media that made it sound as if the plan would be to build the passenger terminal near Rickenbacker.

Now, for the record, I think the whole thing is a pipe dream... but IF Cbus wins, and IF they actually build the thing, and IF it's located near LCK, then would it be worth considering moving all commercial operations from CMH to LCK?

Granted, that would be no small task. But, if they're already going to build a new terminal building in ten years, then would they consider just building it elsewhere? Maybe build it on the south side of LCK? (Leave the existing passenger terminal as a charter terminal?) Maybe build up Rt 23 and add a new exit/road?

If I'm not mistaken, they've already got rail lines running from there to downtown, and if the hyper loop is really going to be the "game changer" that they are hoping, then it might be worthwhile to have as many modes of transportation nearby as possible...?

DeltaRules · Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:41 am

NoTime wrote:
Regarding all of the recent news about Columbus being a "finalist" in the hyper-loop competition (or whatever it's considered). I read something in local media that made it sound as if the plan would be to build the passenger terminal near Rickenbacker.

Now, for the record, I think the whole thing is a pipe dream... but IF Cbus wins, and IF they actually build the thing, and IF it's located near LCK, then would it be worth considering moving all commercial operations from CMH to LCK?

Granted, that would be no small task. But, if they're already going to build a new terminal building in ten years, then would they consider just building it elsewhere? Maybe build it on the south side of LCK? (Leave the existing passenger terminal as a charter terminal?) Maybe build up Rt 23 and add a new exit/road?

If I'm not mistaken, they've already got rail lines running from there to downtown, and if the hyper loop is really going to be the "game changer" that they are hoping, then it might be worthwhile to have as many modes of transportation nearby as possible...?

I doubt it. CMH is too convenient to downtown (straight shot down 670) vs. having to go around 270 to 71, 70, or 670 and more centrally located to much of the city. With the hyperloop only serving Chicago and Pittsburgh (to my knowledge), I'm not sure there's much point in centralizing all non-G4 air service at LCK.

flyguy89 · Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:42 am

Midwestindy wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
How long do you think it'll be for DL to shift this route to DTW or end it completely?

I think P&G has some sort of agreement for this route, it was actually recently upguaged to a CRJ-700.

Do you have a source for this, otherwise I just don't see how this route is sustainable

DEPARTURES_SCHEDULED DEPARTURES_PERFORMED SEATS PASSENGERS CARRIER_NAME ORIGIN DEST AIRCRAFT_TYPE MONTH

9 9 450 140 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 6
17 17 1173 472 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 631 6
23 23 1150 607 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 5
23 22 1100 460 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 4
23 23 1150 494 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 3
20 20 1000 412 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 2
17 17 850 296 SkyWest Airlines Inc. CVG XNA 629 1

I'm not sure that subsidy is the right word since we're talking about two private companies transacting with each other. I rather doubt there's any kind of formal profit guarantee so much as they purchase enough tickets at a high-enough fare to make the route sustainable...the fares on this route are routinely $500-$600 for a 562-mile flight. I think it's telling that XNA is the only small "regional" market left at CVG that DL serves...every other market DL flies to now from CVG is medium-to-large sized.

ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

If that is the case, then why is P&G bothering to stay in Cincinnati if they don't like the air service? They could always move elsewhere (to places such as CLT, DFW, ATL, etc) where they have more service (and a better business climate). You think they'd move especially considering they seem to be subsidizing a lot of the remaining routes.

Because they have deep ties to the city, the companies like Chiquita and Toyota that did not have such ties have already left. It does not hurt them to try to get more flights on DL and I think paying extra for flights is cheaper than alternatives. Adjusted for inflation, companies in Cincinnati paid almost $700 average ticket prices during the DL hub days, certainly they are paying less today. Plus you don’t move a company just because of air service, it’s not as good as it once was, but Cincinnati’s air service is not that bad, P&G has a lot more nonstop options than many surrounding cities have. Would they prefer more flights, of course, but it is far from a deal breaker. Besides, Cincinnati already has a good business climate, there are many more Fortune 500/1000 companies than surrounding cities.

That wasn't a knock against Cincinnati, I was just wondering why P&G was sticking around if they don't like the air service.

Also, do you think they could convince DL to shift the CVG-CDG flight to LHR if they'd rather have London service? DL is ending PHL-LHR in March, so a slot will be opening up. If that doesn't work, then I'd work on recruiting either BA or DY to the airport.

P&G's European HQ is in Geneva, and CDG offers the quickest connection to get there, P&G also has significant operations in France...they seem pretty content with it.

cvgComair wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Also, do you think they could convince DL to shift the CVG-CDG flight to LHR if they'd rather have London service? DL is ending PHL-LHR in March, so a slot will be opening up. If that doesn't work, then I'd work on recruiting either BA or DY to the airport.

While I am sure they would rather have LHR service (CDG is the #3 destination based on demand behind LON and FRA), I am not so sure DL would go for LHR instead of CDG, though I suppose its possible, PDX has LHR/AMS and no CDG. I hope CVG is focused on getting DY to LGW and DE to FRA, that seems like the most likely scenario IMO.

Are you sure? While old, according to the Brookings data from 2011, the top three European destinations in order of demand were 1) Paris (only just edging out London) 2) London 3) Frankfurt.

Jshank83 · Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:19 am

Midwestindy wrote:
The T100 data has been updated through June, and international through March
CVG numbers are looking healthier
MEM-CVG 30.4%
XNA-CVG 39.7%
BNA-CVG 48.99%
EWR-CVG 66.12%
BWI-CVG 74.3%
BDL-CVG 65.5%
MCI-CVG 72.1%
STL-CVG 69.11%
MKE-CVG 67.9%
CDG-CVG 69.5%

WN total LF out of CVG for June-67.1%
MDW-CVG 59.5%
BWI-CVG 79.6%

How did you get June data? Everything I am seeing stops at March. Do you have link to the database?

Midwestindy · Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:55 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
The T100 data has been updated through June, and international through March
CVG numbers are looking healthier
MEM-CVG 30.4%
XNA-CVG 39.7%
BNA-CVG 48.99%
EWR-CVG 66.12%
BWI-CVG 74.3%
BDL-CVG 65.5%
MCI-CVG 72.1%
STL-CVG 69.11%
MKE-CVG 67.9%
CDG-CVG 69.5%

WN total LF out of CVG for June-67.1%
MDW-CVG 59.5%
BWI-CVG 79.6%

How did you get June data? Everything I am seeing stops at March. Do you have link to the database?

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/DL_SelectFields.asp

DeltaRules · Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:55 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
The T100 data has been updated through June, and international through March
CVG numbers are looking healthier
MEM-CVG 30.4%
XNA-CVG 39.7%
BNA-CVG 48.99%
EWR-CVG 66.12%
BWI-CVG 74.3%
BDL-CVG 65.5%
MCI-CVG 72.1%
STL-CVG 69.11%
MKE-CVG 67.9%
CDG-CVG 69.5%

WN total LF out of CVG for June-67.1%
MDW-CVG 59.5%
BWI-CVG 79.6%

How did you get June data? Everything I am seeing stops at March. Do you have link to the database?

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/DL_SelectFields.asp

I get an error message.

Midwestindy · Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:31 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

How did you get June data? Everything I am seeing stops at March. Do you have link to the database?

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/DL_SelectFields.asp

I get an error message.

When you get the error message here is what you do
1.On the left-hand side you will see a list, and at the top of the list it will say "resources"
2.Under the list labeled "resources", you will see a box labeled "database directory," click on it
3.Next, you will see a list of databases, under database names, look for "Air Carrier Statistics (Form 41 Traffic)- U.S. Carriers" once you find it click on that name
4.Then you will see more databases, if you are looking for Jan-June data, click download on "T-100 Domestic Segment (U.S. Carriers)" which will give you data on all the domestic flights for the Jan-June 2017 time period however it has data going all the way back til 1990 if you want that as well. And you can filter down to the specific state you are looking for...
5.If you want international data it has it from Jan-March 2017, instead of clicking T-100 Domestic Segment, click "T-100 International Segment (All Carriers)". This database is organized by country, but you will still find all the data you need...

Hope that helps if you have any other questions you can DM me.

cvgComair · Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:33 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Are you sure? While old, according to the Brookings data from 2011, the top three European destinations in order of demand were 1) Paris (only just edging out London) 2) London 3) Frankfurt.

Do you know if the Brookings data includes XXX-CVG-CDG and CVG-CDG-XXX passengers? I have seen that on CVG to Europe, CVG-LON was the largest market. Looking at 2003, LON is much higher and FRA is the same as CDG, so I wonder if DL cutting the non stops in 2010 suppressed demand since the data is from 2011. I am thinking the numbers have shifted back closer to 2003 ratios.

I did find this from an article in 2016, O&D demand on CVG to Europe:
1. United Kingdom
2. Germany
3. Italy
4. France
5. Spain

Midwestindy · Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:43 pm

cvgComair wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Are you sure? While old, according to the Brookings data from 2011, the top three European destinations in order of demand were 1) Paris (only just edging out London) 2) London 3) Frankfurt.

Do you know if the Brookings data includes XXX-CVG-CDG and CVG-CDG-XXX passengers? I have seen that on CVG to Europe, CVG-LON was the largest market. Looking at 2003, LON is much higher and FRA is the same as CDG, so I wonder if DL cutting the non stops in 2010 suppressed demand since the data is from 2011. I am thinking the numbers have shifted back closer to 2003 ratios.

I did find this from an article in 2016, O&D demand on CVG to Europe:
1. United Kingdom
2. Germany
3. Italy
4. France
5. Spain

Brookings data is O&D only, but either way CVG to LON and PARIS were identical, so I assume they are still relatively similar today.

Jshank83 · Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:31 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/DL_SelectFields.asp

I get an error message.

When you get the error message here is what you do
1.On the left-hand side you will see a list, and at the top of the list it will say "resources"
2.Under the list labeled "resources", you will see a box labeled "database directory," click on it
3.Next, you will see a list of databases, under database names, look for "Air Carrier Statistics (Form 41 Traffic)- U.S. Carriers" once you find it click on that name
4.Then you will see more databases, if you are looking for Jan-June data, click download on "T-100 Domestic Segment (U.S. Carriers)" which will give you data on all the domestic flights for the Jan-June 2017 time period however it has data going all the way back til 1990 if you want that as well. And you can filter down to the specific state you are looking for...
5.If you want international data it has it from Jan-March 2017, instead of clicking T-100 Domestic Segment, click "T-100 International Segment (All Carriers)". This database is organized by country, but you will still find all the data you need...

Hope that helps if you have any other questions you can DM me.

Thank you!

john7165 · Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:56 pm

NoTime wrote:
Regarding all of the recent news about Columbus being a "finalist" in the hyper-loop competition (or whatever it's considered). I read something in local media that made it sound as if the plan would be to build the passenger terminal near Rickenbacker.

Do you have a link to the article you're referring? I read the Columbus media and can't recall this. A little history...When the county took over the then Lockbourne AFB, there was a beehive of cargo activity with FedEx, UPS, Flying Tigers, Southern Air and others landing at LCK. Traffic was so prolific , the county drew up plans which would add 5 more 11,000 ft runways, each spaced a mile apart with industrial, manufacturing and warehouses filling in the gaps. The state senate even cancelled a one million dollar landscaping project at the Stelzer Rd/ I-670 interchange because why spend that much money when the passenger terminal was going to be relocated. Well, the cargo companies began to go out of business and LCK was reduced to pretty much a ghost town and the whole thing was dropped. Fast forward to today and while cargo has picked back up at LCK, there has been no talk as far as I've read about relocating the passenger terminal. In fact, all the talk is building a new terminal where the blue lot is now and that will be the permanent home for passenger traffic.

flyguy89 · Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:19 pm

cvgComair wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Are you sure? While old, according to the Brookings data from 2011, the top three European destinations in order of demand were 1) Paris (only just edging out London) 2) London 3) Frankfurt.

Do you know if the Brookings data includes XXX-CVG-CDG and CVG-CDG-XXX passengers? I have seen that on CVG to Europe, CVG-LON was the largest market. Looking at 2003, LON is much higher and FRA is the same as CDG, so I wonder if DL cutting the non stops in 2010 suppressed demand since the data is from 2011. I am thinking the numbers have shifted back closer to 2003 ratios.

I did find this from an article in 2016, O&D demand on CVG to Europe:
1. United Kingdom
2. Germany
3. Italy
4. France
5. Spain

As Midwestindy pointed out, it's O&D data. As you suggest, the correlation seems to suggest that the lack of a nonstop flight has indeed suppressed demand. With Paris being, for quite some time now, the only nonstop flight to Europe from Cincinnati, Paris has come away as the front runner...it's nearly equal with London however.

stl07 · Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:25 pm

Are the DL loads good enough/have business commitments to sustain STL flights when WN adds STL from CVG

Midwestindy · Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:45 am

stl07 wrote:
Are the DL loads good enough/have business commitments to sustain STL flights when WN adds STL from CVG

Well DL CVG-BWI/ORD are still around and DL has to compete with G4, WN, AA, and UA for flights into BWI/DCA/IAD.

However, we have no idea what DL at CVG will look like by the time that happens, so it is probably too early to tell.

cvgComair · Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:14 pm

It sounds like Frontier is adding new routes on Tuesday, apparently CVG-SJC is one of them. Should be interesting to see if the start dates for RDU/JAX/AUS/SAT/SEA are announced and if there are any other new routes.

cvgComair · Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:55 pm

Looking on Twitter, according to Frontier, the starting dates for the routes will be announced on the "next schedule extension". So, I am guessing that is next week.

papatango · Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:20 pm

What are the odds of Delta starting CMH to AMS service!

flyCMH · Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:46 pm

papatango wrote:
What are the odds of Delta starting CMH to AMS service!

0?

Sorry, but I don't see the CRAA really making any noticeable strides to attract any new service, domestic or international. The monthly Board of Directors meeting minutes have been quiet regarding increased air service. The JET task force created during Mayor Coleman's administration has been silent (has it been disbanded?). There really does not seem to be any impetus to attract new service. Drive to CLE, CVG, IND, or PIT if you want a nonstop across the pond, I doubt it's coming to CMH any time soon.

cvgComair · Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:17 pm

Apparently CVG is adding 14-16 new News/Gift/Retail shops, not just 7-8 I reported earlier. In addition to the new restaurants going in currently, they also are trying to get another full-service restaurant. I get that they need new retail stores/food options, but this seems a little overkill.

Midwestindy · Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:21 pm

flyCMH wrote:
papatango wrote:
What are the odds of Delta starting CMH to AMS service!

0?

Sorry, but I don't see the CRAA really making any noticeable strides to attract any new service, domestic or international. The monthly Board of Directors meeting minutes have been quiet regarding increased air service. The JET task force created during Mayor Coleman's administration has been silent (has it been disbanded?). There really does not seem to be any impetus to attract new service. Drive to CLE, CVG, IND, or PIT if you want a nonstop across the pond, I doubt it's coming to CMH any time soon.

That is a pretty strong statement, considering most of the Full-service carriers have very few places left to add...
If a carrier doesn't add TATL from CMH in 2017/2018, than it will be one of the first routes D8 uses the A321LR with...

jplatts · Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:31 pm

Will Frontier ever acquire slots at DCA to add DCA-CVG nonstop service? Frontier does have room at DCA to add CVG-DCA nonstop service if it can acquire slots at DCA. Frontier already has plans to serve at least 9 East Coast destinations nonstop from CVG, and DCA is one of the few remaining destinations on the East Coast that Frontier doesn't serve nonstop from CVG.

flymco753 · Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:38 pm

But do airlines find that CMH is a sandwich between CVG, CLE, PIT and IND? Take it this way, CVG, CLE, and PIT have Euro ULCC's and IND has a TATL flight, DTW is a mega hub for DL and if you want to stretch it, ORD is a mega hub for UA and AA. I wonder if airlines are feeling that there's too much pressure from surrounding exposure to ULCC's aside from IND.

jplatts · Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:41 pm

Will Frontier ever add nonstop service from CVG to MSY, MCI, SLC, and PDX? Frontier hasn't yet announced any plans to serve MSY, MCI, SLC, and PDX nonstop, and Frontier has already announced nonstop service to most of the other major destinations nonstop that it intends to serve nonstop from CVG.

DeltaRules · Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:57 pm

flyCMH wrote:
papatango wrote:
What are the odds of Delta starting CMH to AMS service!

0?

Sorry, but I don't see the CRAA really making any noticeable strides to attract any new service, domestic or international. The monthly Board of Directors meeting minutes have been quiet regarding increased air service. The JET task force created during Mayor Coleman's administration has been silent (has it been disbanded?). There really does not seem to be any impetus to attract new service. Drive to CLE, CVG, IND, or PIT if you want a nonstop across the pond, I doubt it's coming to CMH any time soon.

I'm curious to see last month's board meeting minutes (released before the next meeting) because their new service panel met on August 22nd. I know they're rumors but, assuming there's truth to AA adding a new LHR flight from a city with no London service and/or DL apparently adding more P2P TATL stuff (along with the expanded FIS area), I can't believe CMH wouldn't be in the running for one of the two since it's the last untapped market in the region and the recent feeding frenzy with CLE/CVG/STL/IND/BNA.

If both rumors are true AND CMH doesn't get any of it, it's a massive failure on the part of everyone involved.

Briancw · Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:26 pm

Anyone else think jplatts could be a bot? Or is it just me?

flyguy89 · Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:27 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Apparently CVG is adding 14-16 new News/Gift/Retail shops, not just 7-8 I reported earlier. In addition to the new restaurants going in currently, they also are trying to get another full-service restaurant. I get that they need new retail stores/food options, but this seems a little overkill.

Could it be that they're also replacing some existing food/retail concepts?

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