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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:23 pm

ocracoke wrote:

Those are operated for vacation charters, not actual G4 service. They plan to run their own branded international flights starting next year.


It doesn't matter if G4 is flying their own branding, flying for Apple Vacations, or some other vacation group. The point I'm trying to make is that G4 already flies international into CVG today. They already park at B, offload their passengers, and then tow over to A. They need not wait until some fantasy customs opens up in A before they start.

By law, all carriers have to have access to FIS. Since there is no way to bus people from a remote parking spot over to customs, DL has to give up a gate when an international plane arrives. Whether they like it or not. Over the years, I've seen the P&G Brussels charter, Ryan Air 777 on some company outing, the Bengals on VS, Air Canada stopping to clear a hockey team, medical emergency diversions, etc, etc, etc. All parking somewhere at 1-10. Heck. Ive even seen inbound international UPS cargo planes parking at DL's gates, when SDF was shut down for weather, just to clear the crew.

The last few months of flying out of CVG, I've noticed that gates 3 and 4 seem all but abandoned. There is no more ground equipment staged at those gates, and I think I've only seen one RON at 4 once. Those are 2 gates I'm sure DL will rent out to international arrivals, since they don't seem to use them anymore.


I have been keeping track, DL uses a peak of 21 gates at a time for deplaning/cleaning/boarding, this does not including RON/idle aircraft. With international carriers deplaning at Concourse B, especially when Allegiant adds international flights and if an international carrier comes, that mean DL probably wants an extra overflow gate, totaling 22 gates used. That would allow them to give up 6 gates without affecting their operations, but it would require them to use the RON pad when aircraft are not flying.


If you park at the observation point on Donaldson Rd, you can see the end gates (26, 27, etc) being used for charter flights and maintenance needs. If a baseball or football team flies DL or UA (it appears that UA charters are handled by DL ground people in CVG, not their own people), they will park at the end of B concourse. Many times, you will see a CRJ land, pull into that end of B, and then have maintenance proceed to work on it for the next few hours. If DL were to give up those end gates, they would have to move the charter and maintenance parking flights somewhere else. Will they fit into the remains gates? If I remember correctly, DL owns the building, and have a lease on the land until 2020. So what would be the incentive for DL to give up gates?


All of the airlines that fly international flights into CVG (Allegiant, Frontier, Swift, Xtra, Volaris, and Delta) obviously have to use the international gates in B. Nobody said otherwise. The argument that was being made, that completely eluded you, was that any airline that flies into CVG that isn't named Delta has to depart from a non-concourse B gate. Yes, Delta owns B and yes they may have to allow airlines to park at an international gate when necessary but Delta does not have to let another airline depart from their gate. As for why Delta would give up gates in B? Plain and simple, they could negotiate a cheaper lease or an early release from the contract.

If Delta gave up the 5-6 gates on the East end of the Concourse then they would have to do like all the other airlines that perform maintenance and cleans, they would have to use another gate, on remote, or at the hangar.

I'm not sure when you are flying out of CVG but B3 and B4 are used pretty often for RON's.
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:43 pm

I don't know how to add pictures but A2 fits a 767
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:52 pm

So over the last year or so I've notice a lot of green lines come up on the tarmac. These look like they are trying to squeeze more gates in. When the tarmac gets re done are they going to follow these lines?
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:04 pm

Notable delta schedule updates to CVG:

-Las is back to daily even on saturdays
-FLL has 2 daily on Sunday
-RSW is daily on delta connection
-SLC back to 2 daily
 
ocracoke
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:54 pm


The argument that was being made, that completely eluded you, was that any airline that flies into CVG that isn't named Delta has to depart from a non-concourse B gate. Yes, Delta owns B and yes they may have to allow airlines to park at an international gate when necessary but Delta does not have to let another airline depart from their gate.


"Has to"?

Nothing has eluded me. I've been flying out of CVG since the mid 1970s. I'm familiar with what is going on at that airport.

Delta has indeed allowed non-DL international flights out of B concourse, just as DL has allowed other airlines to use A concourse back in the day, when it was still all DL. I don't know if you remember the original Air Tran (before the ValuJet merger), but they had a gate on A. Then there was that other short-lived airline (I've forgotten the name) that flew CVG-MCI for a short while. Also from A. The P&G charter flew their A320 to Brussels out of B. When Frontier first started flying out of CVG, they used B1 for both international inbounds, as well as outbounds. Then when they added CVG-DEN, they used B1 for that flight as well. That Ryan International that some company rents once a year for a junket somewhere....B concourse. Even now, one of those gates at the end (B6? B4), has a computer set up for either Allegiant or Frontier, and I have indeed seen their outbound flights board there.

It is true, that those other airlines tow their planes over to A. But it is not true that they have never departed out of B.



I'm not sure when you are flying out of CVG but B3 and B4 are used pretty often for RON's.


B4, I've seen. But it's been a while since I've seen anything on B3. Do take a picture.
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:05 pm

ocracoke wrote:
B4, I've seen. But it's been a while since I've seen anything on B3. Do take a picture.

I have seen it a few times recently. Here is a picture from the departure board two weeks ago, a DL flight from LAS arrived and departed at gate B3.

Image
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:32 pm

ocracoke wrote:
Delta has indeed allowed non-DL international flights out of B concourse, just as DL has allowed other airlines to use A concourse back in the day, when it was still all DL.


No one here is trying to argue that DL will not let other carriers use their gates, of course they will let any carrier use them, for a price. I think the point others are trying to make is that CVG is not BOS/NYC/LAX/ATL/ect where there is large demand for international flights, so smaller inconveniences are not a big deal. CVG is competing with over a dozen other markets like CMH/IND/PIT/BNA/STL/MKE/MEM/RDU/CLE with the same passenger demand, same business demand, same subsidiary incentives, etc. When it comes down to deciding, extra fees caused by towing, gate leases to DL, multiple crews, or longer layover times could cause a carrier to choose CMH/IND over CVG (and vice-versa). International carriers are being courted by airports, not the other way around. The less negatives and more positives the airport can present to carriers, the more likely they are to pick CVG. The airport negotiating with DL to get gate space in Concourse B would fix all of these issues. Keep in mind that the idea to reopen customs in Concourse A was prior to the knowledge that DL is willing to give up gates in Concourse B (in exchange for lower leases).
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:43 pm

AA's CVG-MIA is not looking good at all, they have cut the flight down to 1x/ERJ-145 through the end of the schedule. Also, the route is not scheduled for most of March, April, and May. How can there be that little traffic to MIA from CVG? We do have DL on CVG-FLL, but WN operates CMH/IND-FLL and both cities have 2-3x/day to MIA on AA.
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:27 am

Currently on MYR-CVG and it's about 75% full. Much better loads then the other times I have flown it though. Usually it's around 50% honestly.
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:14 am

cvgComair wrote:
AA's CVG-MIA is not looking good at all, they have cut the flight down to 1x/ERJ-145 through the end of the schedule. Also, the route is not scheduled for most of March, April, and May. How can there be that little traffic to MIA from CVG? We do have DL on CVG-FLL, but WN operates CMH/IND-FLL and both cities have 2-3x/day to MIA on AA.


My assumption is there isn't a large AA FF base in CVG to draw from, so I assume a lot of the CVG-MIA/FLL traffic goes to FLL. Plus, for example in Q1, CMH/IND each have 81 and 106 more PDEW to MIA/FLL than CVG, so there is that as well...
ATL BWI BOS CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DTW FLL RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP BNA EWR HVN MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:57 am

cvgComair wrote:
AA's CVG-MIA is not looking good at all, they have cut the flight down to 1x/ERJ-145 through the end of the schedule. Also, the route is not scheduled for most of March, April, and May. How can there be that little traffic to MIA from CVG? We do have DL on CVG-FLL, but WN operates CMH/IND-FLL and both cities have 2-3x/day to MIA on AA.


Is there enough demand for DL or F9 to add nonstop service to MIA from CVG, and is MIA really underserved from CVG?
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:04 am

Checked out the A1 and A2 boarding area and OMG it is massive! It probably has 150-200 seats. There are just rows and rows and they go far back. It's probably as big as the whole Allegiant and Frontier boarding area.
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:05 am

Midwestindy wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
AA's CVG-MIA is not looking good at all, they have cut the flight down to 1x/ERJ-145 through the end of the schedule. Also, the route is not scheduled for most of March, April, and May. How can there be that little traffic to MIA from CVG? We do have DL on CVG-FLL, but WN operates CMH/IND-FLL and both cities have 2-3x/day to MIA on AA.


My assumption is there isn't a large AA FF base in CVG to draw from, so I assume a lot of the CVG-MIA/FLL traffic goes to FLL. Plus, for example in Q1, CMH/IND each have 81 and 106 more PDEW to MIA/FLL than CVG, so there is that as well...


I have been to Miami twice this year and have flown to FLL both times. Frontier is cheap
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:09 am

I have pictures of the gate area but I need to know how to add pictures. Thanks
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:12 am

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
I have pictures of the gate area but I need to know how to add pictures. Thanks


You have to put the URL of the image inside tags like this:

[img]www.google.com/[/img]


You need to have the images online somewhere. I usually just upload them to Wikipedia Commons, but you can use services like Photo Bucket as well. I think you can also link photos from Twitter as long as you use the URL to the photo.
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ocracoke
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:26 am

cvgComair wrote:
I have seen it a few times recently. Here is a picture from the departure board two weeks ago, a DL flight from LAS arrived and departed at gate B3.

Image


Thanks for the photo.


No one here is trying to argue that DL will not let other carriers use their gates,


Someone was

of course they will let any carrier use them, for a price. I think the point others are trying to make is that CVG is not BOS/NYC/LAX/ATL/ect where there is large demand for international flights, so smaller inconveniences are not a big deal. CVG is competing with over a dozen other markets like CMH/IND/PIT/BNA/STL/MKE/MEM/RDU/CLE with the same passenger demand, same business demand, same subsidiary incentives, etc. When it comes down to deciding, extra fees caused by towing, gate leases to DL, multiple crews, or longer layover times could cause a carrier to choose CMH/IND over CVG (and vice-versa). International carriers are being courted by airports, not the other way around. The less negatives and more positives the airport can present to carriers, the more likely they are to pick CVG.


From the airport's view, I cant disagree with that.

The airport negotiating with DL to get gate space in Concourse B would fix all of these issues. Keep in mind that the idea to reopen customs in Concourse A was prior to the knowledge that DL is willing to give up gates in Concourse B (in exchange for lower leases).


But this part I disagree with. First, in my opinion, it is just a pipe dream for the airport to put a CBP facility back into A. Not only will it cost millions that the KCAB has better use for, but also the government simply doesn't have the manpower to staff it. If DL were using every international gate round the clock, and another airline had troubles getting in (like in DTW), yea....maybe then. But that's not the case, and the government has more pressing issues (like trying to bring the staffing at MIA, ORD, JFK, SEA, etc up to level) than worrying about CVG and it's woefully underused FIS. They simply aren't going to yank staff off of the DHL operation just to work a three-times a week Condor flight, when Condor can go to B. Government thinking here.

Second, again, what incentive does DL have to give up gate space? Maybe there is something out there for them, but I just don't see it. The KCAB can threaten to raise the lease rates in 2020, but since DL owns all the buildings, they'll just pass the rates on to the other tenants. The KCAB can offer lower rates, but is it worth that to open up 6 or so gates to B6, or WN? If we've learned anything about the industry the last few years, it is that real estate is king. What good is a thousand flights to EWR if you have no place to park your planes? Over at ORD, through the grapevine, I'm hearing that DL wants desperately to expand but doesn't have the gates. As soon as one becomes available, UA snatches it from under them. DL paid for that move in LAX.....not because they thought it would be groovy to go back to a 1960s terminal...but because they needed the gates. So why would DL help a competitor out, any competitor, by simply handing over gates? To save a few pennies? Once those gates are gone, they are gone.

DL has said that they cut too far at CVG the last few years. We can now see them tying to fix that mistake; daily roundtrips to LAS and SFO, upgrading MCO to 3 flights from 1, larger equipment, etc. To me, it seems illogical to try to claw back the market share they have lost, to simply turn around and hand the other airlines 6 more gates.

I have no inside track, so I don't know. I'll guess we'll see in a few years down the road what is going to happen.
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:28 am

cvgComair wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
I have pictures of the gate area but I need to know how to add pictures. Thanks


You have to put the URL of the image inside tags like this:

[img]www.google.com/[/img]


You need to have the images online somewhere. I usually just upload them to Wikipedia Commons, but you can use services like Photo Bucket as well. I think you can also link photos from Twitter as long as you use the URL to the photo.



Be careful with PhotoBucket. They just went haywire a couple days ago, and are now going to charge $400 a year for the privilege of linking photos. You might want to look for another free photo hosting site.
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:55 am

https://mobile.twitter.com/Cvgspotter15 ... 0121842689

Thanks for the help. Just made a spam twitter. Anyway if you click the link you will see the new gate area and how big it is!
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:56 am

Also CVG-MCO is departing out of B4 tomorrow
 
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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:06 am

ocracoke wrote:
Even now, one of those gates at the end (B6? B4), has a computer set up for either Allegiant or Frontier, and I have indeed seen their outbound flights board there.


I don't know where you heard that but it is 100% not true that they have computers at any gates in Concourse B. Allegiant use to have a laptop that they were able to take where ever when needed but is no longer around in CVG. Frontier does have a mobile unit for that very reason but I can guarantee that they would avoid boarding out of B unless it was absolutely necessary. They both may have boarded out of B in the past before they were at the level of operations out of CVG that they are at now but neither would be willing to do it now.

ocracoke wrote:
Someone was


You were the one that came onto the page arguing. It all started as a discussion about how the gate situation at CVG could possibly holding back new airlines from offering international service. CVGComair stated it perfectly, it all comes down to how CVG can compete against other airports of similar size service. If an airline can go to CMH and use one gate the whole time (purely speculating here, I have no idea how CMH's gate situation is) on a turn as compared to having to pay extra money that could easily amount to tens of thousands of dollars of over a year. There is a reason that Swift has a mechanic ride along on all of their international flights, it's cheaper in the long run.


ocracoke wrote:
But this part I disagree with. First, in my opinion, it is just a pipe dream for the airport to put a CBP facility back into A. Not only will it cost millions that the KCAB has better use for, but also the government simply doesn't have the manpower to staff it. If DL were using every international gate round the clock, and another airline had troubles getting in (like in DTW), yea....maybe then. But that's not the case, and the government has more pressing issues (like trying to bring the staffing at MIA, ORD, JFK, SEA, etc up to level) than worrying about CVG and it's woefully underused FIS. They simply aren't going to yank staff off of the DHL operation just to work a three-times a week Condor flight, when Condor can go to B. Government thinking here.

Second, again, what incentive does DL have to give up gate space? Maybe there is something out there for them, but I just don't see it. The KCAB can threaten to raise the lease rates in 2020, but since DL owns all the buildings, they'll just pass the rates on to the other tenants. The KCAB can offer lower rates, but is it worth that to open up 6 or so gates to B6, or WN? If we've learned anything about the industry the last few years, it is that real estate is king. What good is a thousand flights to EWR if you have no place to park your planes? Over at ORD, through the grapevine, I'm hearing that DL wants desperately to expand but doesn't have the gates. As soon as one becomes available, UA snatches it from under them. DL paid for that move in LAX.....not because they thought it would be groovy to go back to a 1960s terminal...but because they needed the gates. So why would DL help a competitor out, any competitor, by simply handing over gates? To save a few pennies? Once those gates are gone, they are gone.

DL has said that they cut too far at CVG the last few years. We can now see them tying to fix that mistake; daily roundtrips to LAS and SFO, upgrading MCO to 3 flights from 1, larger equipment, etc. To me, it seems illogical to try to claw back the market share they have lost, to simply turn around and hand the other airlines 6 more gates.

I have no inside track, so I don't know. I'll guess we'll see in a few years down the road what is going to happen.


It's about lowering cost. The airport is looking to get more gates and those in B are likely the cheapest option for acquiring more. And from what I've heard, Delta is looking to let some gates go because they no longer need them and if they can get their lease reduced or eliminated completely then the whole situation is a win-win as long as the terms are right.
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:17 am

ocracoke wrote:
Second, again, what incentive does DL have to give up gate space? Maybe there is something out there for them, but I just don't see it. The KCAB can threaten to raise the lease rates in 2020, but since DL owns all the buildings, they'll just pass the rates on to the other tenants. The KCAB can offer lower rates, but is it worth that to open up 6 or so gates to B6, or WN? If we've learned anything about the industry the last few years, it is that real estate is king. What good is a thousand flights to EWR if you have no place to park your planes? Over at ORD, through the grapevine, I'm hearing that DL wants desperately to expand but doesn't have the gates. As soon as one becomes available, UA snatches it from under them. DL paid for that move in LAX.....not because they thought it would be groovy to go back to a 1960s terminal...but because they needed the gates. So why would DL help a competitor out, any competitor, by simply handing over gates? To save a few pennies? Once those gates are gone, they are gone.

DL has said that they cut too far at CVG the last few years. We can now see them tying to fix that mistake; daily roundtrips to LAS and SFO, upgrading MCO to 3 flights from 1, larger equipment, etc. To me, it seems illogical to try to claw back the market share they have lost, to simply turn around and hand the other airlines 6 more gates.

I have no inside track, so I don't know. I'll guess we'll see in a few years down the road what is going to happen.

Unfortunately, while DL has increased seat capacity, the number of daily flights continue to slide. For instance, just in 2016, BNA/MEM/JFK/MKE were reduced from 2 to 1 daily departures, DTW/MSP went from 6 to 5, DFW is going from 3 to 2, and RDU went from 3 to 2. CLT and PHL were also listed as going from 3 to 2, but this seems to have since been reversed. Whereas the only increases in frequency were restoring MCO to 2 (3 in Feb/March), ATL from 7 to 8, IAH/YYZ from 1 to 2, and ORD from 4 to 5. In terms of daily flights, we hit a relative low of 81 right before Richard Anderson retired, then CVG bounced back up to 87 for Summer 2016, then dipped to the lowest point of 76 daily flights in early 2017, but is back up to 81 flights after the Feb 2017 expansion. YOY, Delta passenger levels are up pretty significantly. WN entering this June pushed DL under 50% market share at CVG for the first time in over three decades, but they are increasing seats rapidly. DL gained 6% capacity this June alone and 2015/2016's increases totaled another 7% rise in seats.

It will be interesting to see where DL is in 2020 at CVG, to be honest I think it could go either way. I highly doubt anyone would have predicted CVG would have retained the service that it has, most assumed CVG would be gone long before MEM. To me, DL has shown that they can be successful at CVG, but if they are looking to give up gates, I think its safe to say they do not plan on growing daily departures much. I predict the extra gates will only be leased under strict terms that vastly favor DL. Even with the agreement to end the Concourse A lease, DL still has some control over Concourse A. I would imagine this would be the same for any gates leased in Concourse B.
Last edited by cvgComair on Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:21 am

cvgComair wrote:
ocracoke wrote:
Second, again, what incentive does DL have to give up gate space? Maybe there is something out there for them, but I just don't see it. The KCAB can threaten to raise the lease rates in 2020, but since DL owns all the buildings, they'll just pass the rates on to the other tenants. The KCAB can offer lower rates, but is it worth that to open up 6 or so gates to B6, or WN? If we've learned anything about the industry the last few years, it is that real estate is king. What good is a thousand flights to EWR if you have no place to park your planes? Over at ORD, through the grapevine, I'm hearing that DL wants desperately to expand but doesn't have the gates. As soon as one becomes available, UA snatches it from under them. DL paid for that move in LAX.....not because they thought it would be groovy to go back to a 1960s terminal...but because they needed the gates. So why would DL help a competitor out, any competitor, by simply handing over gates? To save a few pennies? Once those gates are gone, they are gone.

DL has said that they cut too far at CVG the last few years. We can now see them tying to fix that mistake; daily roundtrips to LAS and SFO, upgrading MCO to 3 flights from 1, larger equipment, etc. To me, it seems illogical to try to claw back the market share they have lost, to simply turn around and hand the other airlines 6 more gates.

I have no inside track, so I don't know. I'll guess we'll see in a few years down the road what is going to happen.

Unfortunately, while DL has increased seat capacity, the number of daily flights continue to slide. For instance, just in 2016, BNA/MEM/JFK/MKE were reduced from 2 to 1 daily departures, DTW/MSP went from 6 to 5, DFW is going from 3 to 2, and RDU went from 3 to 2. CLT and PHL were also listed as going from 3 to 2, but this seems to have since been reversed. Whereas the only increases in frequency were restoring MCO to 2 (3 in Feb/March), ATL from 7 to 8, IAH/YYZ from 1 to 2, and ORD from 4 to 5. In terms of daily flights, we hit a relative low of 81 right before Richard Anderson retired, then CVG bounced back up to 87 for Summer 2016, then dipped to the lowest point of 76 daily flights in early 2017, but is back up to 81 flights after the Feb 2017 expansion. YOY, Delta passenger levels are up pretty significantly. WN entering this June pushed DL under 50% market share at CVG for the first time in over three decades, but they are increasing seats rapidly. DL gained 6% capacity this June alone and 2015/2016's increases totaled another 7% rise in seats.

It will be interesting to see where DL is in 2020 at CVG, to be honest I think it could go either way. I highly doubt anyone would have predicted CVG would have retained the service that it has, most assumed CVG would be gone long before MEM. To me, DL has shown that they can be successful at CVG, but if they are looking to give up gates, I think its safe to say they do not plan on growing daily departures much.


Do you think CVG could ever be back at 100 with another TATL?
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:35 am

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
Do you think CVG could ever be back at 100 with another TATL?


I thought it was remotely possible until I heard about DL potentially giving up gates in Concourse B. I still think CVG-LHR could be a possibility for a November 1 or Spring/Summer 2018 launch and I think CVG-AUS is an inevitable add. CVG-RDU will probably also see upgauging with their growing footprint in the city. JFK/BOS will also probably see additional frequencies going forward. PIT/MSY are also cities that have been pushing for DL to restore service, so support on both end might make these routes a reality again. In all, I could see DL getting into the upper 80's/low 90's again, but I am not sure we will reach 100 again.

I personally would like to see DL "reset" to their early 2015 operations with 106 daily departures, but that includes a lot more CR2's. Routes like CVG-GRR/RIC/MSN/PIT/SAN/MSY/JAX/AUS/PHX/PDX could all work with connecting passengers, but it depends on what DL is willing to do (these were all cut (except for PDX/AUS) in 2014/2015, which was the last big DL cut at CVG). When DL says it cut too far at CVG, I think they will reach the "correct" level of service by upgauging aircraft size with a few smaller adds like I described above.
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:29 am

cvgComair wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
Do you think CVG could ever be back at 100 with another TATL?


I thought it was remotely possible until I heard about DL potentially giving up gates in Concourse B. I still think CVG-LHR could be a possibility for a November 1 or Spring/Summer 2018 launch and I think CVG-AUS is an inevitable add. CVG-RDU will probably also see upgauging with their growing footprint in the city. JFK/BOS will also probably see additional frequencies going forward. PIT/MSY are also cities that have been pushing for DL to restore service, so support on both end might make these routes a reality again. In all, I could see DL getting into the upper 80's/low 90's again, but I am not sure we will reach 100 again.

I personally would like to see DL "reset" to their early 2015 operations with 106 daily departures, but that includes a lot more CR2's. Routes like CVG-GRR/RIC/MSN/PIT/SAN/MSY/JAX/AUS/PHX/PDX could all work with connecting passengers, but it depends on what DL is willing to do (these were all cut (except for PDX/AUS) in 2014/2015, which was the last big DL cut at CVG). When DL says it cut too far at CVG, I think they will reach the "correct" level of service by upgauging aircraft size with a few smaller adds like I described above.


My problem with the London flight is wouldn't it have already have been announced even if it was spring 2018?
 
Jshank83
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:50 am

Cvgspotter15 wrote:

My problem with the London flight is wouldn't it have already have been announced even if it was spring 2018?


BA announced March starts for Austin in September and New Orleans in October in those respective situations when they were announced. So there would still be time going off that timeline.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:30 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:

My problem with the London flight is wouldn't it have already have been announced even if it was spring 2018?


BA announced March starts for Austin in September and New Orleans in October in those respective situations when they were announced. So there would still be time going off that timeline.


Correct, BA doesn't usually announce until late summer/early fall, but I think it is more likely CMH will happen before CVG...
ATL BWI BOS CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DTW FLL RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP BNA EWR HVN MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD
 
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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:05 pm

Looks like F9 is pretty happy with they way CVG-SAN is doing. They up gauging it to an A321 on the 16th and RSW goes to an A321 on the 17th.
A319, A320, A321, B1900F, B737-300, B737-400, B737-400F, B737-700, B737-800, B757-200, B757-200F, B767-200F, B767-300F, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, ERJ-145, E-170, E-175, MD-80, SD3-60F
 
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:03 pm

AirportRival wrote:
Looks like F9 is pretty happy with they way CVG-SAN is doing. They up gauging it to an A321 on the 16th and RSW goes to an A321 on the 17th.


Always good news. What do you guys think the connection percent of frontier is at CVG. I know it's low but it is still there.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:07 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
Looks like F9 is pretty happy with they way CVG-SAN is doing. They up gauging it to an A321 on the 16th and RSW goes to an A321 on the 17th.


Always good news. What do you guys think the connection percent of frontier is at CVG. I know it's low but it is still there.


Imagine if G4 did connections...
ATL BWI BOS CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DTW FLL RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP BNA EWR HVN MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD
 
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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:45 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
Looks like F9 is pretty happy with they way CVG-SAN is doing. They up gauging it to an A321 on the 16th and RSW goes to an A321 on the 17th.


Always good news. What do you guys think the connection percent of frontier is at CVG. I know it's low but it is still there.


The thru passenger percentage for CVG for the month of June was less than 1%
A319, A320, A321, B1900F, B737-300, B737-400, B737-400F, B737-700, B737-800, B757-200, B757-200F, B767-200F, B767-300F, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, ERJ-145, E-170, E-175, MD-80, SD3-60F
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:57 pm

So my dad is a frequent flyer of CVG-YYZ on both airlines. He says he only goes through customs in Canada and not at all in Cincinnati. He says there is a big US customs setup there and it applies to all the airports. If another international airline came to A could the same apply? I doubt I'm just wondering.
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:33 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
So my dad is a frequent flyer of CVG-YYZ on both airlines. He says he only goes through customs in Canada and not at all in Cincinnati. He says there is a big US customs setup there and it applies to all the airports. If another international airline came to A could the same apply? I doubt I'm just wondering.


That is US Customs Pre-Clearance, it is basically going through US customs in another country before boarding your flight. Currently it is only setup in Canada, Bermuda, The Bahamas, Aruba, Ireland, and the United Arab Emirates. So, it would not help any potential international flight at CVG right now, but here is the list of airports the US says they are considering adding Pre-Clearance to, however it has been years since a new country was added:

Buenos Aires Ministro Pistarini International Airport, Argentina
Brussels Airport, Belgium
Punta Cana Airport, Dominican Republic
Narita International Airport, Japan
Amsterdam Airport Schiphol, Netherlands
Oslo Airport, Norway
Madrid-Barajas Airport, Spain
Stockholm Arlanda Airport, Sweden
Istanbul Ataturk Airport, Turkey
London Heathrow Airport, United Kingdom
Manchester Airport, United Kingdom
El Dorado International Airport (BOG) in Bogota, Colombia
Ministro Pistarini International Airport (EZE) in Buenos Aires, Argentina
Edinburgh Airport (EDI) in Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Keflavik International Airport (KEF) in Iceland
Mexico City International Airport (MEX) in Mexico City, Mexico
Milan-Malpensa Airport (MXP) in Milan, Italy
Kansai International Airport (KIX) in Osaka, Japan
Rio de Janeiro-Galeão International Airport (GIG) in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Leonardo da Vinci-Fiumicino Airport (FCO) in Rome, Italy
São Paulo-Guarulhos International Airport (GRU) in São Paulo, Brazil
Princess Juliana International Airport (SXM) in St. Maarten
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Jshank83
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:33 pm

Cvgspotter15 wrote:
So my dad is a frequent flyer of CVG-YYZ on both airlines. He says he only goes through customs in Canada and not at all in Cincinnati. He says there is a big US customs setup there and it applies to all the airports. If another international airline came to A could the same apply? I doubt I'm just wondering.


Here is the list of Pre-Clearance airports, if that is what you are referring to. These are the airports where you go through customs on the non US side of the flight no matter which direction you are going. Most major Canadian airports, 2 in Ireland and Abu Dhabi. This applies to all airlines as far as I know.

https://www.cbp.gov/border-security/por ... eclearance
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:39 pm

AirportRival wrote:
Cvgspotter15 wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
Looks like F9 is pretty happy with they way CVG-SAN is doing. They up gauging it to an A321 on the 16th and RSW goes to an A321 on the 17th.


Always good news. What do you guys think the connection percent of frontier is at CVG. I know it's low but it is still there.


The thru passenger percentage for CVG for the month of June was less than 1%

Last year there were more connection options on F9 at Cincinnati, but they have really cut it out of the schedule. F9 seems to be moving away from connections and trying to do all PTP flying like G4. They have reduced capacity on CVG-LAX/LAS/SFO/DEN, which is unfortunate, but G4 and UA have expanded in these markets, so YOY traffic on these routes will still increase over last fall.
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:48 pm

cvgComair wrote:
I thought it was remotely possible until I heard about DL potentially giving up gates in Concourse B. I still think CVG-LHR could be a possibility for a November 1 or Spring/Summer 2018 launch and I think CVG-AUS is an inevitable add. CVG-RDU will probably also see upgauging with their growing footprint in the city. JFK/BOS will also probably see additional frequencies going forward. PIT/MSY are also cities that have been pushing for DL to restore service, so support on both end might make these routes a reality again. In all, I could see DL getting into the upper 80's/low 90's again, but I am not sure we will reach 100 again.


Southwest has a significant presence at both AUS and MSY, has been at AUS for almost 40 years, has been at MSY for over 38 years, and has recently expanded at MSY. Are the CVG-AUS and CVG-MSY markets actually large enough to be served nonstop out of CVG on Southwest's 737-700 planes, which seat 143 passengers, or are these routes better served by Delta Connection regional jets or by Delta's 717, A319, and 737-700 planes?

Even though Frontier's presence at AUS is not as big as Frontier's presence at CVG, Frontier also has a significant presence out of AUS with nonstop service to 8 destinations out of AUS. In addition to its home base at DEN, Frontier flies to ATL, ORD, LAS, MCO, PHL, SAN, and IAD nonstop from AUS. Is there enough demand for Frontier to add CVG-AUS nonstop service if Delta or Southwest does not add nonstop service to AUS out of CVG?
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:55 am

jplatts wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
I thought it was remotely possible until I heard about DL potentially giving up gates in Concourse B. I still think CVG-LHR could be a possibility for a November 1 or Spring/Summer 2018 launch and I think CVG-AUS is an inevitable add. CVG-RDU will probably also see upgauging with their growing footprint in the city. JFK/BOS will also probably see additional frequencies going forward. PIT/MSY are also cities that have been pushing for DL to restore service, so support on both end might make these routes a reality again. In all, I could see DL getting into the upper 80's/low 90's again, but I am not sure we will reach 100 again.


Southwest has a significant presence at both AUS and MSY, has been at AUS for almost 40 years, has been at MSY for over 38 years, and has recently expanded at MSY. Are the CVG-AUS and CVG-MSY markets actually large enough to be served nonstop out of CVG on Southwest's 737-700 planes, which seat 143 passengers, or are these routes better served by Delta Connection regional jets or by Delta's 717, A319, and 737-700 planes?

Even though Frontier's presence at AUS is not as big as Frontier's presence at CVG, Frontier also has a significant presence out of AUS with nonstop service to 8 destinations out of AUS. In addition to its home base at DEN, Frontier flies to ATL, ORD, LAS, MCO, PHL, SAN, and IAD nonstop from AUS. Is there enough demand for Frontier to add CVG-AUS nonstop service if Delta or Southwest does not add nonstop service to AUS out of CVG?

G4 already flies CVG-AUS 2x weekly. It's been around for a good bit, so it must do alright, but if they haven't increased frequency at all it's doubtful there's room for 2 carriers in the market let alone daily WN service. Ditto for MSY.
 
WWads
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:31 am

PreClearance at LHR would be amazing. Forecasted to happen in the next five years.

First post. Long time lurker, finally created an account. In VA now, but grew up five miles from CVG.
 
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Cvgspotter15
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:49 pm

WWads wrote:
PreClearance at LHR would be amazing. Forecasted to happen in the next five years.

First post. Long time lurker, finally created an account. In VA now, but grew up five miles from CVG.


Welcome! Excited to hear your insight.
 
fsafsx
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:09 pm

Can CMH land a Mexico carrier like Aeromexico or Volaris for the large and growing Latin population in Columbus?
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:20 am

fsafsx wrote:
Can CMH land a Mexico carrier like Aeromexico or Volaris for the large and growing Latin population in Columbus?


Interjet and/or VivaAerobus run the Vacation Express CUN charters. It'd be interesting to see if there'd be enough market for a scheduled service.

I would think (and would curious to see if) LCK-SJU might be a more likely possibility for G4 given they're running it from CVG, PIT, and RDU.
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:16 pm

http://www.dispatch.com/news/20170705/s ... ing-winter

Talks about lack of west coast nonstops from CMH, good read...
ATL BWI BOS CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DTW FLL RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP BNA EWR HVN MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD
 
topguncnod
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:46 pm

Pretty big news for a local Cincinnati company today, Vantiv. They announced their intent to acquire WorldPay based out of London. Vantiv spun off from Fifth Third Bank in 2009 and has since acquired companies in Denver and Lowell, MA (outside of Boston). Tons of travel on the nonstop's on Delta from CVG. This now gives them 4,500 employees in Europe with the majority based in London. Should put some additional demand for international travel.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/busi ... &smtyp=cur
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:22 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
http://www.dispatch.com/news/20170705/southwest-to-suspend-columbus-oakland-flight-during-winter

Talks about lack of west coast nonstops from CMH, good read...


CLE, CVG and IND are all pretty well served to the west coast with many routes served by LCCs keeping fares fairly low. It's not that long of a drive to those airports from Columbus. This may be partly why the area struggles to maintain service.
 
brooklynchris13
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:09 pm

[quote][CLE, CVG and IND are all pretty well served to the west coast with many routes served by LCCs keeping fares fairly low. It's not that long of a drive to those airports from Columbus. This may be partly why the area struggles to maintain service.quote]

I have to disagree with you there. I do not think we see hardly any "bleed" out of CMH to those airports, especially not for west coast flying. I think there are a few more significant factors: 1) the west coast is just not a prime vacation spot for the midwest, like Florida is. 2) there are MANY ways to get to the west coast that involve one stop at a large hub (Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Houston, LAX, etc.) that can provide that connectivity 3) the corporate travel contracts and demand CMH/West Coast or CMH/Asia are just not there yet (Asia would be the onward connections that would make a flight to SFO or SEA a "must-have"). Not saying there is not a demand, but I just do not think it is at the tipping point yet.

When we do get there, I honestly believe you will see AS jump into the market with both feet and try to stake their claim. Additional signs might be: DL to SEA (who has shown a history of focus-like operations at CMH for awhile now); UA to SFO; WN to another west-coast destination (such as SAN), or perhaps even F9 with additional west coast flights. That none of these things have happened yet (and that WN is perfectly happy dropping OAK for a bit) would indicate to me that the airlines know there just is not quite yet the need and/or they can make more money with the necessary aircraft in other places rather than a long, thin, not highly profitable route from CMH to the west coast.

I never thought I would say this, but it would seem likely that CMH has just as good a chance of a N/S to LHR as they do SEA, SFO, or SAN. I find that pretty shocking and I could be wrong. I guess time will tell.
"Be the change you want to see in the world" (mg)
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:59 pm

brooklynchris13 wrote:
[CLE, CVG and IND are all pretty well served to the west coast with many routes served by LCCs keeping fares fairly low. It's not that long of a drive to those airports from Columbus. This may be partly why the area struggles to maintain service.quote]

I have to disagree with you there. I do not think we see hardly any "bleed" out of CMH to those airports, especially not for west coast flying. I think there are a few more significant factors: 1) the west coast is just not a prime vacation spot for the midwest, like Florida is. 2) there are MANY ways to get to the west coast that involve one stop at a large hub (Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Houston, LAX, etc.) that can provide that connectivity 3) the corporate travel contracts and demand CMH/West Coast or CMH/Asia are just not there yet (Asia would be the onward connections that would make a flight to SFO or SEA a "must-have"). Not saying there is not a demand, but I just do not think it is at the tipping point yet.

When we do get there, I honestly believe you will see AS jump into the market with both feet and try to stake their claim. Additional signs might be: DL to SEA (who has shown a history of focus-like operations at CMH for awhile now); UA to SFO; WN to another west-coast destination (such as SAN), or perhaps even F9 with additional west coast flights. That none of these things have happened yet (and that WN is perfectly happy dropping OAK for a bit) would indicate to me that the airlines know there just is not quite yet the need and/or they can make more money with the necessary aircraft in other places rather than a long, thin, not highly profitable route from CMH to the west coast.

I never thought I would say this, but it would seem likely that CMH has just as good a chance of a N/S to LHR as they do SEA, SFO, or SAN. I find that pretty shocking and I could be wrong. I guess time will tell.


I'll disagree again. Between CVG and CLE there are a lot of cheap direct options to fly non-stop to the West Coast that Columbus doesn't offer. CLE has multiple daily flights to SFO and LAX alone. Find it hard to believe people in Columbus never travel up or down I-71 to catch a flight just like they connect through another hub.
 
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jbpdx
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:01 pm

Seems every city is being shorted nonstops to somewhere. Portland has 19 dailies to LAX, plus 3 to Santa Ana, 2 to Long Beach, 4 to Burbank, and 5 to Ontario, and sometimes I wonder why? But zero to South Florida.
Next: AS PDX-MCI-PDX
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:45 am

izbtmnhd wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
http://www.dispatch.com/news/20170705/southwest-to-suspend-columbus-oakland-flight-during-winter

Talks about lack of west coast nonstops from CMH, good read...


CLE, CVG and IND are all pretty well served to the west coast with many routes served by LCCs keeping fares fairly low. It's not that long of a drive to those airports from Columbus. This may be partly why the area struggles to maintain service.


I'd rather connect through a hub on a flight out of CMH or DAY than drive to CLE, CVG, or IND, to be honest.

As for CMH-OAK being temporarily suspended, I'm not terribly worried about it. IIRC, STL-OAK is being shelved for a bit, too, and STL is a huge piece of WN's operations.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:03 pm

topguncnod wrote:
Pretty big news for a local Cincinnati company today, Vantiv. They announced their intent to acquire WorldPay based out of London. Vantiv spun off from Fifth Third Bank in 2009 and has since acquired companies in Denver and Lowell, MA (outside of Boston). Tons of travel on the nonstop's on Delta from CVG. This now gives them 4,500 employees in Europe with the majority based in London. Should put some additional demand for international travel.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/busi ... &smtyp=cur

I wonder if this could have any impact on the potential for a London flight, looks like they could help increase Cincinnati to London demand. In general, business backing of airlines/routes is one of the best way to get new services. DL having flights to DEN and BOS definitely favors them using DL for travel.
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:31 pm

I was helping Delta and Allegiant passengers recheck their luggage in the international arrivals area today and I've gotta say that I was rather surprised by the number of connecting passengers on Delta. I don't work for Delta so I have no idea what the percentages are. I was even more surprised that most of them seemed to be going to other hubs and not the few non-hub cities that Delta offers from CVG.
A319, A320, A321, B1900F, B737-300, B737-400, B737-400F, B737-700, B737-800, B757-200, B757-200F, B767-200F, B767-300F, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, ERJ-145, E-170, E-175, MD-80, SD3-60F
 
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cvgComair
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Re: The Rest Of Ohio Part 6

Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:40 pm

AirportRival wrote:
I was helping Delta and Allegiant passengers recheck their luggage in the international arrivals area today and I've gotta say that I was rather surprised by the number of connecting passengers on Delta. I don't work for Delta so I have no idea what the percentages are. I was even more surprised that most of them seemed to be going to other hubs and not the few non-hub cities that Delta offers from CVG.


I have seen this occur as well, I am especially surprised by the amount of people going through Cincinnati to get to Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis and New York. I was talking to a check-in agent about this in LA, and they were saying DL's reservation system puts award tickets on less convenient itineraries on purpose. He thought it was to free room on higher demand routes and paying passengers, but did not know for sure. For instance, when booking with money, the cheapest option is LAX-CVG, but when I use points, I am often routed LAX-LAS-CVG, LAX-SFO-CVG, LAX-SEA-CVG (I have done all of these). Other examples include CVG-ATL-LAS when there is a nonstop CVG-LAS, and it always seems to happen on award tickets. Since I am CVG based, I have not had experience with other hubs, but I would assume they do this at other hub cities.
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